New players are excluded from PvP

Asdara · August 10

Currently, new players are excluded from PvP because of the overwhelming dominance of tanky builds, cross-healing, and the steep learning curve required to survive against experienced players and organized groups. The reliance on specific meta builds and the long, drawn-out battles create a high barrier to entry, making it difficult for newcomers to feel effective or enjoy the experience.

Compounding this problem is the dominance of the tank meta, which has turned PvP into a battle of attrition rather than skill.
Stalemates are all too common, with tanky builds and groups running around, making it nearly impossible to secure kills.
The prevalence of "chase me" builds, "1vX" builds that are overly tanky, and groups of tanky healers who can keep themselves and their allies alive indefinitely has drained the excitement from PvP. No one enjoys spending 15 minutes in a 1v1 battle only to have it end in a draw, and yet that has become a common scenario.

The biggest issue, however, is the effect of cross-healing on PvP.
The ability of healers to make entire groups nearly immortal by spamming just one or two buttons has warped the entire dynamic of PvP.
Ball groups, which are essentially unkillable thanks to this mechanic, have become a scourge in Cyrodiil.
They're not fun to be part of, and they're certainly not fun to fight against.
These groups dominate the battlefield, making it nearly impossible for other players to enjoy the experience.
The trial group approach to PvP, which may be the root of many performance issues, has compromised the experience for everyone else, leaving little room for solo players or smaller groups to find success or enjoyment.

Further exacerbating the problem is the damage reduction across the board that came with update 35. The decrease in damage from heavy attacks, dots, and light attacks has made it even harder to break through these tanky builds. This reduction has sapped much of the intensity and danger from PvP, making battles feel drawn-out and unsatisfying.

The lack of new players in PvP is a critical issue because it prevents the community from growing and diversifying. Without fresh participants, the PvP scene becomes stagnant, with the same veteran players dominating the field. This leads to fewer battles, less variety in playstyles, and an overall decline of PvP. As veteran players eventually leave due to frustration or burnout, there will be no new blood to replace them, ultimately leading to the slow death of PvP in ESO.
To make PvP in ESO fun and engaging again, these issues must be addressed. Population balance, the overwhelming tank meta, cross-healing, and the impact of damage reductions all need urgent attention.
Without meaningful changes, the exodus of PvP players will continue...

tincanman · August 10

Both cross-healing and tank-builds improve new player survivability, giving them long enough to look-see before getting pounded into extinction. Some can even survive more than 3 whole seconds!

Compare and contrast with yesteryear when a new player would vapourise instantly in a 1-shot of ignominy.

The downside, of course, is that experienced players are left playing punch-in-the-face until one or both get tired or bored or both.

Lack of new players is critical, I agree with that, but increased player caps, BG queues that work and generalised performance improvements (promised for years but sadly conspicuous in their absence) would all be, in my view, a better incentive for new players. In other words pvp and associated systems that actually work and skills that fire when they should. And rewards - oddles and oodles of rewards.

Cyrodiil is NOT new-player friendly but was/is predicated on selling mount (speed) upgrades due to the vast size and relative distances needing to be crossed, which was fine when it was the expected end-game for all way-back-then. This, of course, was replaced by the crowns store skyshards packs which means players are often one-and-done in cyro; same result from AwA.

Declining player counts in pvp, though, is less about what's meta (new guy only wants/needs to survive long enough to see if it might be fun, not get smashed into the ground in <1 GCD and logoff never to return) and more about the systems and resources that have been pretty methodically and noticeably shifted AWAY from that game-mode. Fix/restore those first.

/my view(entirely subjective)

Amottica · August 10

Asdara wrote: »

Currently, new players are excluded from PvP because of the overwhelming dominance of tanky builds, cross-healing, and the steep learning curve required to survive against experienced players and organized groups.

This sentence really says it all. Any new player needs to learn how to play the game regardless of what activities they are interested in.

It behooves them to find a good group (read guild) to run with. They can help them learn more about playing the game and help them get setup with gear and more. I have tended to find a guild to run with when entering a new game for this and other reasons. Granted, I have had to kiss some frogs before finding a good guild, but it is worth the time.

If a player chooses to go it alone, then that is their choice, but along with it means they are choosing to figure all this out on their own. We all reap what we sow.

tincanman · August 10

It might improve when zos introduce their new pvp thing towards the end of the year.

I'm guessing it will be overland pvp flagging because:

it's probably the easiest to implement, since it just(TM) extends duelling to a zone
it will be OFF by default so exclusively pve players will just ignore it other than to complain when there's a 2-way organised guild collision in Auridon spoiling the beach views, with a guest-star guild that arrives late but wasn't invited.
zos can tick it off the list of 'done something new for pvp'
other games have it (e.g 'that' game that a lot of eso pvpers left to try out) so new players might expect it as a basic feature.

Amethyst_Unearthed · August 10

ever since the groups got put down from 24 man to 12 i noticed LFG posts get ignored 9.99999 times out of 10.... its impossible to get a pvp group unless you go in pvp already in one....

tincanman · August 10

I think eso is pretty much, by player expectation from previous elder scrolls experience, a solo game with 'social' aspects; new players have to be able to try it out in that context. In a paddling pool. With inflatable lifebelts[cf: tanky builds] and floaty toys [cf: cross/burst heals] first. With performance that does not suck and in a population bigger than can be squeezed into the back-seat of a small car.

If you compare new player pve experience, where they can solo in their underwear, with PVP the latter is orders of magnitude more complex and difficult, where any new player is a minnow amongst piranhas. Scary, gargantuan piranhas with leering grins filled with masses of pointy-teeth ....

Maybe the <50th level cyro campaign and <50th BGs needs to be exclusively for new players (but then who's to teach?)....? (And what happened to <50th level imperial city, anyway?) Maybe change battle spirit in these <50th level modes in a way analogous to overland/pve level-scaling so that new players can have a graduated experience of difficulty as they level up?

But fix performance so that the skill-just-used actually *works*. Restore the lost cyro player caps campaign sizes - it's a lot easier to find your feet when you're not the only token minnow in the ocean of predators...

SeaGtGruff · August 10

I think "excluded" is the wrong word. New players can certainly PvP if they wish to. They might be disadvantaged to an extent by their low attribute, skill, and CP levels, as well as by their gear, etc.-- but they are not prevented from getting into PvP.

CatoUnchained · August 10

Amethyst_Unearthed wrote: »

ever since the groups got put down from 24 man to 12 i noticed LFG posts get ignored 9.99999 times out of 10.... its impossible to get a pvp group unless you go in pvp already in one....

Cutting group size to only 12 members essentially eliminated the whole ability to find a pick up group using LFG in zone chat. It's just one of the many changes ZOS has made that limits the enjoyment and friendliness of PvP.

Asdara · August 10

CatoUnchained wrote: »

Amethyst_Unearthed wrote: »

ever since the groups got put down from 24 man to 12 i noticed LFG posts get ignored 9.99999 times out of 10.... its impossible to get a pvp group unless you go in pvp already in one....

Cutting group size to only 12 members essentially eliminated the whole ability to find a pick up group using LFG in zone chat. It's just one of the many changes ZOS has made that limits the enjoyment and friendliness of PvP.

So far thats also what i've experienced, 99.9% of the time my lfg are ingored

LittlePinkDot · August 11

Under 50 campaign, BG is the best place to learn as a solo player

Desiato · August 11

I disagree with the sentiment of this post. Cyrodiil is much less savage on new players than it used to be because of the combat changes that have raised the floor and lowered the ceiling. It's easier to survive than it has ever been.

Plus Battlegrounds has MMR to help ease new players in.

Learning a new PVP game is always rough on noobs. One must be willing to throw themselves into the fire to learn and adapt.

The thing with ESO is that it doesn't have very many PVP enthusiasts. That is, players who are generally interested in PVP games and play them outside of ESO. On top of that, 99.9% of PVE content is incredibly easy and doesn't push players to learn the mechanics. That is the true reason why so many players are unprepared for PVP.

TechMaybeHic · August 12

I'd say the floor has been raised incredibly so, and maybe too much the past couple years, but; the group size change and mass damage that comes from getting stacked on a squishy player causing you to blow up makes PUG pickups very discouraged.

That said; I know a lot of guilds will take you in if you join and learn just a little about bringing a build that won't get your group killed.

WaywardArgonian · August 12

The barrier of entry for PVP is currently very high. Under 50 PVP used to be a pretty good way of getting used to the different game modes with lowered stakes.

However, the introduction of the stickerbook and the ability to recreate many items for under 50, including proc sets and I believe monster sets, increased the problem U50 already had: wild imbalance.

Even before the stickerbook, you already had many people smurfing there, using fully golded out optimized sets for the U50 environment that, along with the level scaling, made them practically immortal. When the stickerbook meant they no longer had to restrict themselves to crafted sets, the U50 campaign somehow became even less balanced than the 'big boy' campaigns. U50 could have benefited from a separate ruleset, or at least a restriction could've been put on the stickerbook that prevented this sort of stuff, but by now it is too late and the campaign has been an absolute ghost town for years.

As for bigger campaigns, one thing that really hurt it was cutting group sizes in half. When my friends who are more casual about PVP dip their toes into Cyro, one of the biggest complaints I hear is that they can spend an hour asking for a group, but either the ones that are up are full, or they just don't take randoms at all anymore. Of course you can always say 'start your own group!' but not everyone has the ability and confidence to lead groups themselves. I always recommend players to join a PVP guild, but that's already a higher level of commitment than most casual players would like to make.

In the end, though, the core of the problem is how poorly information is conveyed inside the game. Many things pertaining to PVP are explained poorly or not at all. An example was the no proc campaign, whose ruleset was explained in-game by a short blurb of 2 sentences. It was completely impossible to comprehend the rules of that campaign without resorting to sources outside of the game. That is not good design. Whichever changes in the future are implemented are only secondary to how they will be communicated.

darvaria · August 13

IMO new pvpers should go as TANKY as possible. Roll a Warden. That is the flavor of the month. TANKY is your friend. Learn to block and use siege.

Start with 40K minimum health. Have a self heal. Get vigor. And block. Maybe even try 1 bar build using Oaken Soul ring and one Defensive armor set Mara's Balm. And don't forget crafted sets can be made in heavy. Add some blocking to traits. You wouldn't believe how many players just clank away doing almost no damage to a block. Learn on a tank, not a glass canon. As you get the blocking and evasion down, you can add more dps if that's your preference. But start with 40k health and some good self heals. Get that add on "Am I Blocking". Block, evade, heal.

Tigor · August 13

New players are not excluded from PvP. They need to be trained properly and learn quickly. An in game guide would also help.

JustLovely · August 13

Excluded might be a strong word here, unless you're talking about the super low population caps. Pop caps this low actually do exclude more players than they allow into the zone as most players can only play in the evening hours when queue is over 50 players a lot of the time.

However, the learning curve for PvP is steep and long. And with group sizes cut in half to only 12 members, it's essentially impossible to find a pick up group in zone chat. So there is little opportunity for a new player to get together with other PvP players who can help them learn the ropes.

PvP used to be and still is the best part of ESO, but it's a shadow of what it used to be, quit literally, with population caps of 10% of what they were originally.

I feel sorry for anyone who's in the same boat as me. Being a PvP addict right now is tough given the dearth of options out there right now. ESO used to be the place to be, now it's just the placeholder until something new comes along.

Necrotech_Master · August 13

i wouldnt say new players are excluded from pvp, its called a learning curve

literally any game with pvp is going to have a learning curve where your going to likely be facing players who have more experience than you do, your going to die a lot at first, no matter what pvp game you dive into

Highwayman · August 13

I believe that with the under 50 campaigns having lost all their value, it's high time we have purchasable lv 50 characters with solid default specs for pvp. Even as I say this, I have doubts how many people would take the option, but we really need a pipeline into pvp for newer players and no-cp cyrodiil and battlegrounds seems the right target.

I have friends who'd play if they could skip the grind to 50 and the grind to even a half way effective build. Maybe even the unthinkable and let them start with mages and fighters guild skills unlocked. Or riding skills... that is such a barrier with cyrodiil. I offer to help and their eyes start glazing over as I explain even just the basics of what they will need to do to get up an running.

This stuff makes sense for an rpg and I get it, I've played it and loved it, but it's just a roadblock for someone looking to only pvp and there are a lot of alternatives these days that do let you just jump in.

Necrotech_Master · August 13

Highwayman wrote: »

I believe that with the under 50 campaigns having lost all their value, it's high time we have purchasable lv 50 characters with solid default specs for pvp. Even as I say this, I have doubts how many people would take the option, but we really need a pipeline into pvp for newer players and no-cp cyrodiil and battlegrounds seems the right target.

I have friends who'd play if they could skip the grind to 50 and the grind to even a half way effective build. Maybe even the unthinkable and let them start with mages and fighters guild skills unlocked. Or riding skills... that is such a barrier with cyrodiil. I offer to help and their eyes start glazing over as I explain even just the basics of what they will need to do to get up an running.

This stuff makes sense for an rpg and I get it, I've played it and loved it, but it's just a roadblock for someone looking to only pvp and there are a lot of alternatives these days that do let you just jump in.

a problem with that is even with the character "spec'd for pvp" that doesnt substitute player skill and knowledge of combat mechanics/game mechanics

it wouldnt be any different than say copying a streamers posted build, except they are paying real money for it, the build itself wont do anything to help the player if they dont know how to use it

Highwayman · August 13

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

a problem with that is even with the character "spec'd for pvp" that doesnt substitute player skill and knowledge of combat mechanics/game mechanics

it wouldnt be any different than say copying a streamers posted build, except they are paying real money for it, the build itself wont do anything to help the player if they dont know how to use it

The problem with that is I am not suggesting it substitute skill, I am suggesting getting them up to par on build so they can start on building skill quicker.

Necrotech_Master · August 13

Highwayman wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

a problem with that is even with the character "spec'd for pvp" that doesnt substitute player skill and knowledge of combat mechanics/game mechanics

it wouldnt be any different than say copying a streamers posted build, except they are paying real money for it, the build itself wont do anything to help the player if they dont know how to use it

The problem with that is I am not suggesting it substitute skill, I am suggesting getting them up to par on build so they can start on building skill quicker.

its kind of hard for them to build skill when they get facerolled

even if you gave them a super meta sweaty pvp setup, if they dont know how to use it they are going to die repeatedly and get likely get frustrated which is what causes people to leave, mostly because it seems people have an aversion to dying (or they see it as similar to "losing")

Highwayman · August 13

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

Highwayman wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

a problem with that is even with the character "spec'd for pvp" that doesnt substitute player skill and knowledge of combat mechanics/game mechanics

it wouldnt be any different than say copying a streamers posted build, except they are paying real money for it, the build itself wont do anything to help the player if they dont know how to use it

The problem with that is I am not suggesting it substitute skill, I am suggesting getting them up to par on build so they can start on building skill quicker.

its kind of hard for them to build skill when they get facerolled

even if you gave them a super meta sweaty pvp setup, if they dont know how to use it they are going to die repeatedly and get likely get frustrated which is what causes people to leave, mostly because it seems people have an aversion to dying (or they see it as similar to "losing")

I am not sure how you think that is relevant. They are going to facerolled at first regardless.

Necrotech_Master · August 13

Highwayman wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

Highwayman wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

a problem with that is even with the character "spec'd for pvp" that doesnt substitute player skill and knowledge of combat mechanics/game mechanics

it wouldnt be any different than say copying a streamers posted build, except they are paying real money for it, the build itself wont do anything to help the player if they dont know how to use it

The problem with that is I am not suggesting it substitute skill, I am suggesting getting them up to par on build so they can start on building skill quicker.

its kind of hard for them to build skill when they get facerolled

even if you gave them a super meta sweaty pvp setup, if they dont know how to use it they are going to die repeatedly and get likely get frustrated which is what causes people to leave, mostly because it seems people have an aversion to dying (or they see it as similar to "losing")

I am not sure how you think that is relevant. They are going to facerolled at first regardless.

your the one who suggested buying the ability to upgrade a character to lvl 50 with a pvp spec

i dont see how that would in any way shape or form help a new player get into pvp since having the gear alone will not do anything to help them, especially since they completely bypassed literally everything that helps them develop the combat skills necessary

Highwayman · August 13

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

Highwayman wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

Highwayman wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

a problem with that is even with the character "spec'd for pvp" that doesnt substitute player skill and knowledge of combat mechanics/game mechanics

it wouldnt be any different than say copying a streamers posted build, except they are paying real money for it, the build itself wont do anything to help the player if they dont know how to use it

The problem with that is I am not suggesting it substitute skill, I am suggesting getting them up to par on build so they can start on building skill quicker.

its kind of hard for them to build skill when they get facerolled

even if you gave them a super meta sweaty pvp setup, if they dont know how to use it they are going to die repeatedly and get likely get frustrated which is what causes people to leave, mostly because it seems people have an aversion to dying (or they see it as similar to "losing")

I am not sure how you think that is relevant. They are going to facerolled at first regardless.

your the one who suggested buying the ability to upgrade a character to lvl 50 with a pvp spec

i dont see how that would in any way shape or form help a new player get into pvp since having the gear alone will not do anything to help them, especially since they completely bypassed literally everything that helps them develop the combat skills necessary

I think you clearly misunderstood the idea. Maybe read it again.

Edit: or are you trying to make the argument that grinding levels in pve and mages/fighters guild helps develop skills for pvp?

Necrotech_Master · August 13

Highwayman wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

Highwayman wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

Highwayman wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

a problem with that is even with the character "spec'd for pvp" that doesnt substitute player skill and knowledge of combat mechanics/game mechanics

it wouldnt be any different than say copying a streamers posted build, except they are paying real money for it, the build itself wont do anything to help the player if they dont know how to use it

The problem with that is I am not suggesting it substitute skill, I am suggesting getting them up to par on build so they can start on building skill quicker.

its kind of hard for them to build skill when they get facerolled

even if you gave them a super meta sweaty pvp setup, if they dont know how to use it they are going to die repeatedly and get likely get frustrated which is what causes people to leave, mostly because it seems people have an aversion to dying (or they see it as similar to "losing")

I am not sure how you think that is relevant. They are going to facerolled at first regardless.

your the one who suggested buying the ability to upgrade a character to lvl 50 with a pvp spec

i dont see how that would in any way shape or form help a new player get into pvp since having the gear alone will not do anything to help them, especially since they completely bypassed literally everything that helps them develop the combat skills necessary

I think you clearly misunderstood the idea. Maybe read it again.

Edit: or are you trying to make the argument that grinding levels in pve and mages/fighters guild helps develop skills for pvp?

not necessarily something as basic as that, though it will help at least develop base combat skills

if you gave a day 1 player the ability to jump right to 50 with a pre-done build, they wont have any understanding of combat, how to use the skills etc, and just get curbstomped in pvp, that wont help their situation and in most peoples cases probably turn them off of pvp for good

a skilled player could take a lvl 20 into pvp using a build even without cp could probably still do pretty good

thats what i was getting at, there is a learning curve, but its learning the game mechanics, it has very little to do with gear or even being lvl 50

a good analogy/comparison would be in a first person shooter you could give a day 1 player a gun that always 1 hit kills regardless of where they hit, sure they might get a few lucky kills but 9/10 times they are likely gonna get killed before they even know whats going on by someone who knows what they are doing

at that point its on the player, if they choose to be persistent and actually learn how to improve, or give up and do something else

Highwayman · August 13

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

Highwayman wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

Highwayman wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

Highwayman wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

a problem with that is even with the character "spec'd for pvp" that doesnt substitute player skill and knowledge of combat mechanics/game mechanics

it wouldnt be any different than say copying a streamers posted build, except they are paying real money for it, the build itself wont do anything to help the player if they dont know how to use it

The problem with that is I am not suggesting it substitute skill, I am suggesting getting them up to par on build so they can start on building skill quicker.

its kind of hard for them to build skill when they get facerolled

even if you gave them a super meta sweaty pvp setup, if they dont know how to use it they are going to die repeatedly and get likely get frustrated which is what causes people to leave, mostly because it seems people have an aversion to dying (or they see it as similar to "losing")

I am not sure how you think that is relevant. They are going to facerolled at first regardless.

your the one who suggested buying the ability to upgrade a character to lvl 50 with a pvp spec

i dont see how that would in any way shape or form help a new player get into pvp since having the gear alone will not do anything to help them, especially since they completely bypassed literally everything that helps them develop the combat skills necessary

I think you clearly misunderstood the idea. Maybe read it again.

Edit: or are you trying to make the argument that grinding levels in pve and mages/fighters guild helps develop skills for pvp?

not necessarily something as basic as that, though it will help at least develop base combat skills

if you gave a day 1 player the ability to jump right to 50 with a pre-done build, they wont have any understanding of combat, how to use the skills etc, and just get curbstomped in pvp, that wont help their situation and in most peoples cases probably turn them off of pvp for good

a skilled player could take a lvl 20 into pvp using a build even without cp could probably still do pretty good

thats what i was getting at, there is a learning curve, but its learning the game mechanics, it has very little to do with gear or even being lvl 50

a good analogy/comparison would be in a first person shooter you could give a day 1 player a gun that always 1 hit kills regardless of where they hit, sure they might get a few lucky kills but 9/10 times they are likely gonna get killed before they even know whats going on by someone who knows what they are doing

at that point its on the player, if they choose to be persistent and actually learn how to improve, or give up and do something else

Well, look at that I agree there is something to be gained. I just think it's of minor significance in comparison to the barrier. Basic combat skills will be picked up anywhere given time. I spent the better portion of my early play in pvp and didn't start with more difficult pve until later, so I know it's possible. I do also know that I had a thriving under 50 campaign when I started that newer players don't have access to.

Edit: ...and just so we are clear I am not suggesting the equivalent of a gun that one shot kills in a fps... more like suggesting to make sure they have a gun to start.

Necrotech_Master · August 13

Highwayman wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

Highwayman wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

Highwayman wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

Highwayman wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

a problem with that is even with the character "spec'd for pvp" that doesnt substitute player skill and knowledge of combat mechanics/game mechanics

it wouldnt be any different than say copying a streamers posted build, except they are paying real money for it, the build itself wont do anything to help the player if they dont know how to use it

The problem with that is I am not suggesting it substitute skill, I am suggesting getting them up to par on build so they can start on building skill quicker.

its kind of hard for them to build skill when they get facerolled

even if you gave them a super meta sweaty pvp setup, if they dont know how to use it they are going to die repeatedly and get likely get frustrated which is what causes people to leave, mostly because it seems people have an aversion to dying (or they see it as similar to "losing")

I am not sure how you think that is relevant. They are going to facerolled at first regardless.

your the one who suggested buying the ability to upgrade a character to lvl 50 with a pvp spec

i dont see how that would in any way shape or form help a new player get into pvp since having the gear alone will not do anything to help them, especially since they completely bypassed literally everything that helps them develop the combat skills necessary

I think you clearly misunderstood the idea. Maybe read it again.

Edit: or are you trying to make the argument that grinding levels in pve and mages/fighters guild helps develop skills for pvp?

not necessarily something as basic as that, though it will help at least develop base combat skills

if you gave a day 1 player the ability to jump right to 50 with a pre-done build, they wont have any understanding of combat, how to use the skills etc, and just get curbstomped in pvp, that wont help their situation and in most peoples cases probably turn them off of pvp for good

a skilled player could take a lvl 20 into pvp using a build even without cp could probably still do pretty good

thats what i was getting at, there is a learning curve, but its learning the game mechanics, it has very little to do with gear or even being lvl 50

a good analogy/comparison would be in a first person shooter you could give a day 1 player a gun that always 1 hit kills regardless of where they hit, sure they might get a few lucky kills but 9/10 times they are likely gonna get killed before they even know whats going on by someone who knows what they are doing

at that point its on the player, if they choose to be persistent and actually learn how to improve, or give up and do something else

Well, look at that I agree there is something to be gained. I just think it's of minor significance in comparison to the barrier. Basic combat skills will be picked up anywhere given time. I spent the better portion of my early play in pvp and didn't start with more difficult pve until later, so I know it's possible. I do also know that I had a thriving under 50 campaign when I started that newer players don't have access to.

i honestly dont know what the state of the sub 50 campaign is like because ive never been there, i dont make new characters often (all of mine were already at cp lvl when they opened that camp), and the few new toons i made since then only took me less than 20 hours of time to grind up to 50 (though i frequently would level these characters in IC sewers, but i played in the cp enabled IC and didnt really go looking for pvp)

if a player wants to jump into pvp day 1, then i would still support that, but i wouldnt support an auto level to 50 and given a preset of gear just because they wanted to pvp instead of pve

Highwayman · August 13

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

Highwayman wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

Highwayman wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

Highwayman wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

Highwayman wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

a problem with that is even with the character "spec'd for pvp" that doesnt substitute player skill and knowledge of combat mechanics/game mechanics

it wouldnt be any different than say copying a streamers posted build, except they are paying real money for it, the build itself wont do anything to help the player if they dont know how to use it

The problem with that is I am not suggesting it substitute skill, I am suggesting getting them up to par on build so they can start on building skill quicker.

its kind of hard for them to build skill when they get facerolled

even if you gave them a super meta sweaty pvp setup, if they dont know how to use it they are going to die repeatedly and get likely get frustrated which is what causes people to leave, mostly because it seems people have an aversion to dying (or they see it as similar to "losing")

I am not sure how you think that is relevant. They are going to facerolled at first regardless.

your the one who suggested buying the ability to upgrade a character to lvl 50 with a pvp spec

i dont see how that would in any way shape or form help a new player get into pvp since having the gear alone will not do anything to help them, especially since they completely bypassed literally everything that helps them develop the combat skills necessary

I think you clearly misunderstood the idea. Maybe read it again.

Edit: or are you trying to make the argument that grinding levels in pve and mages/fighters guild helps develop skills for pvp?

not necessarily something as basic as that, though it will help at least develop base combat skills

if you gave a day 1 player the ability to jump right to 50 with a pre-done build, they wont have any understanding of combat, how to use the skills etc, and just get curbstomped in pvp, that wont help their situation and in most peoples cases probably turn them off of pvp for good

a skilled player could take a lvl 20 into pvp using a build even without cp could probably still do pretty good

thats what i was getting at, there is a learning curve, but its learning the game mechanics, it has very little to do with gear or even being lvl 50

a good analogy/comparison would be in a first person shooter you could give a day 1 player a gun that always 1 hit kills regardless of where they hit, sure they might get a few lucky kills but 9/10 times they are likely gonna get killed before they even know whats going on by someone who knows what they are doing

at that point its on the player, if they choose to be persistent and actually learn how to improve, or give up and do something else

Well, look at that I agree there is something to be gained. I just think it's of minor significance in comparison to the barrier. Basic combat skills will be picked up anywhere given time. I spent the better portion of my early play in pvp and didn't start with more difficult pve until later, so I know it's possible. I do also know that I had a thriving under 50 campaign when I started that newer players don't have access to.

i honestly dont know what the state of the sub 50 campaign is like because ive never been there, i dont make new characters often (all of mine were already at cp lvl when they opened that camp), and the few new toons i made since then only took me less than 20 hours of time to grind up to 50 (though i frequently would level these characters in IC sewers, but i played in the cp enabled IC and didnt really go looking for pvp)

if a player wants to jump into pvp day 1, then i would still support that, but i wouldnt support an auto level to 50 and given a preset of gear just because they wanted to pvp instead of pve

I admit, part of it's selfish... I hate having the same conversation with people ending at the same place... they are excited to play pvp, then I tell them what I see as the minimum investment of time, and they drop out before level 20 even with me helping. I suppose I could go back to under 50 also, but I never even see 1 bar there on any alliance and get the feeling it's not worth the bother (might as well grind pve).

Necrotech_Master · August 13

Highwayman wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

Highwayman wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

Highwayman wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

Highwayman wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

Highwayman wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

a problem with that is even with the character "spec'd for pvp" that doesnt substitute player skill and knowledge of combat mechanics/game mechanics

it wouldnt be any different than say copying a streamers posted build, except they are paying real money for it, the build itself wont do anything to help the player if they dont know how to use it

The problem with that is I am not suggesting it substitute skill, I am suggesting getting them up to par on build so they can start on building skill quicker.

its kind of hard for them to build skill when they get facerolled

even if you gave them a super meta sweaty pvp setup, if they dont know how to use it they are going to die repeatedly and get likely get frustrated which is what causes people to leave, mostly because it seems people have an aversion to dying (or they see it as similar to "losing")

I am not sure how you think that is relevant. They are going to facerolled at first regardless.

your the one who suggested buying the ability to upgrade a character to lvl 50 with a pvp spec

i dont see how that would in any way shape or form help a new player get into pvp since having the gear alone will not do anything to help them, especially since they completely bypassed literally everything that helps them develop the combat skills necessary

I think you clearly misunderstood the idea. Maybe read it again.

Edit: or are you trying to make the argument that grinding levels in pve and mages/fighters guild helps develop skills for pvp?

not necessarily something as basic as that, though it will help at least develop base combat skills

if you gave a day 1 player the ability to jump right to 50 with a pre-done build, they wont have any understanding of combat, how to use the skills etc, and just get curbstomped in pvp, that wont help their situation and in most peoples cases probably turn them off of pvp for good

a skilled player could take a lvl 20 into pvp using a build even without cp could probably still do pretty good

thats what i was getting at, there is a learning curve, but its learning the game mechanics, it has very little to do with gear or even being lvl 50

a good analogy/comparison would be in a first person shooter you could give a day 1 player a gun that always 1 hit kills regardless of where they hit, sure they might get a few lucky kills but 9/10 times they are likely gonna get killed before they even know whats going on by someone who knows what they are doing

at that point its on the player, if they choose to be persistent and actually learn how to improve, or give up and do something else

Well, look at that I agree there is something to be gained. I just think it's of minor significance in comparison to the barrier. Basic combat skills will be picked up anywhere given time. I spent the better portion of my early play in pvp and didn't start with more difficult pve until later, so I know it's possible. I do also know that I had a thriving under 50 campaign when I started that newer players don't have access to.

i honestly dont know what the state of the sub 50 campaign is like because ive never been there, i dont make new characters often (all of mine were already at cp lvl when they opened that camp), and the few new toons i made since then only took me less than 20 hours of time to grind up to 50 (though i frequently would level these characters in IC sewers, but i played in the cp enabled IC and didnt really go looking for pvp)

if a player wants to jump into pvp day 1, then i would still support that, but i wouldnt support an auto level to 50 and given a preset of gear just because they wanted to pvp instead of pve

I admit, part of it's selfish... I hate having the same conversation with people ending at the same place... they are excited to play pvp, then I tell them what I see as the minimum investment of time, and they drop out before level 20 even with me helping. I suppose I could go back to under 50 also, but I never even see 1 bar there on any alliance and get the feeling it's not worth the bother (might as well grind pve).

well it is an MMO, theres always going to be some time investment to really get to the "endgame" or at least the more enjoyment phase of the game

if it was a pure pvp game there would likely be far less investment needed to get into it, as those are usually individual match based and no continuous character progression

ive personally always seen the under-50 camp to be a problem and would likely be always underpopulated because the majority of people are cp lvl, and its not even that hard to level in the game anymore

theres nothing stopping low lvl people from playing in the normal camps though (i could see the sub lvl being more populated if they enforced the other camps to require being lvl 50/cp level so sub 50 players had to go to the sub 50 campaign)

Desiato · August 14

This exchange is exactly why I wish Cyrodiil could be partially separated from ESO so it could function as its own standalone game.

For the PVP side of the game to flourish, it needs to be accessible to PVP gaming enthusiasts. Right now it's not because of the PVE overhead required to properly build a character and ultimately assemble a variety of competitive builds.

I truly believe that even with all of its current technical and gameplay issues, Cyrodiil could be extremely popular if the greater PVP community outside of ESO could just download it, play it right away and progress entirely within PVP/PvPvE zones.

I say partially detached because while it would have its own gameplay, progression system and sets tailored for PVP, it could share other aspects like characters, housing, cosmetics, mounts, and ESO+.

Joy_Division · August 14

The under 50 campaign needs to stop being seen as an introductory step for getting into PvP. It's has few players and has been since 2014 infiltrated by twinked out specialized builds by PvP experts. Advising people to go there is a surefire way to ensure they get turned off by ESO PvP. Besides, it does not take very long to get to level 50 now so sooner rather than later, people will need to move to the deeper end of the pool.

Cyrodiil with its hour long ques, low population, stale map, organized groups, proc sets, and endless stalemates is, as the OP noted, a very intimidating and hostile environment to newcomers to such a point that I think there term excluded is apt. We need not be Captain Literal here. Very few players will put up with the lack of developer interest and investment in Cyrodiil. The most obvious and easiest remedy to mitigate these unfriendly aspects of Cyrodiil is to raise the population cap, but seeing as ZOS cant even be bothered to tell us the results of the test thy ran nine months ago, it's clear the devs are not invested in making an effort to improve Cyrodiil.

So players are going to have to take it on their own initiative. What I would recommend are two things:

start in battlegrounds so at least they get matched up with low MMR players (try to avoid off hour queuing as this means getting stuck on teams of 3 and fighting against experts)
make friends/acquaintances. eventually one will be friendly/open to inviting you to joining groups in Cyrodiil that can make the learning curve much less painful.