Guaranteed Drop System

dk_dunkirk

From here: https://x.com/TFDUpdates/status/1818555260060811529. The First Decendant (which I've never played) is apparently going to implement a "guaranteed drop system," where the thing you're looking for is guaranteed to drop after a certain number of attempts. I've long thought that ESO should implement something like this.

The previous event had several unique style pages that dropped via various activities. I got "lucky" by having them drop after about an hour of doing each, but I know other people who spent 5 or 6 hours getting them, and people who NEVER got them. Especially for items like this, dropping during events, it seems to me there ought to be a "failsafe" where it would drop after a set number of tries. It would be extraordinarily frustrating to fail to get something you're trying to farm because you ran out of time. Like, "takes all the fun out of it" frustrating, and isn't "fun" supposed to be the point of a video game?

At the very least, if they won't implement a system like this, then they should make these kinds of items tradable, so you could buy one from a guild trader. (And, yes, I would then probably be complaining about the extortive prices for such things, but at least it would be possible.)

El_Borracho

No. Dungeon and trials gear should only be tradable for players that run the content.

As for style pages, aren't they all tradable? Monster style pages, trials motifs, event pages, etc. definitely are tradable. The only ones I can think of that were not were the ones from the anniversary event a few months ago, which I do agree should have some sort of cap on attempts before they just give it to you.

thorwyn

Like, "takes all the fun out of it" frustrating, and isn't "fun" supposed to be the point of a video game?

The point of a video game is that players are free to decide whether or not they are enjoying a game. What takes the "fun out of it" for you might be a driving motivation for the next person.
I would not want to have participation trophies. That would dull down the game even more and they might as well hand out everything in the daily login rewards at that point.

EdjeSwift

thorwyn wrote: »

The point of a video game is that some people are free to decide whether or not they are enjoying a game. What takes the "fun out of it" for you might be a driving motivation for the next person.
I would not want to have participation trophies. That would dull down the game even more and they might as well hand out everything in the daily login rewards at that point.

One of the issues we're seeing in the gaming scene is the "pity systems" becoming more popular so people think that this should be the norm, but they don't realize that the reason these systems exist is because of the ramifications of what is being pitied and their effect on the game. Pity systems are more prevalent in gacha style games where the thing being rolled for and eventually pity kicking in has an actual effect on the game, for the most part the things in this game that people want a pity system for are cosmetic. The anniversary style pages, purely cosmetic, crown crate items, purely cosmetic.

For things which ACTUALLY have an effect on the game the systems in place are good enough where you essentially get your guaranteed drop eventually now. Curation is essentially a guaranteed drop system for things that help you "win".

Necrotech_Master

with gear curation and such i think most things are at a good place

other things just need better drop rates and then it wouldnt be an issue, such as treasure map leads or the anniversary style pages

Icy_Waffles

No. But I think something needs to be amended because running 4x for all body pieces and then 40+ more times for all weapons is ridiculous.

El_Borracho

Icy_Waffles wrote: »

No. But I think something needs to be amended because running 4x for all body pieces and then 40+ more times for all weapons is ridiculous.

Join a guild. The ones I am in do gear runs all the time

dk_dunkirk

thorwyn wrote: »

Like, "takes all the fun out of it" frustrating, and isn't "fun" supposed to be the point of a video game?

The point of a video game is that players are free to decide whether or not they are enjoying a game. What takes the "fun out of it" for you might be a driving motivation for the next person.
I would not want to have participation trophies. That would dull down the game even more and they might as well hand out everything in the daily login rewards at that point.

Part of the problem here is that the designers have to somehow find a way to make a game appeal to two very different demographics. On the one end are people who don't play much, and on the other are the people who are logged in 18 hours a day every day. Disclaimer, as someone with chronic health problems -- and there are a lot more of us in the various guilds I'm in than I would have ever guessed -- I'm towards the latter end of the spectrum.

EdjeSwift wrote: »

thorwyn wrote: »

The point of a video game is that some people are free to decide whether or not they are enjoying a game. What takes the "fun out of it" for you might be a driving motivation for the next person.
I would not want to have participation trophies. That would dull down the game even more and they might as well hand out everything in the daily login rewards at that point.

One of the issues we're seeing in the gaming scene is the "pity systems" becoming more popular so people think that this should be the norm, but they don't realize that the reason these systems exist is because of the ramifications of what is being pitied and their effect on the game. Pity systems are more prevalent in gacha style games where the thing being rolled for and eventually pity kicking in has an actual effect on the game, for the most part the things in this game that people want a pity system for are cosmetic. The anniversary style pages, purely cosmetic, crown crate items, purely cosmetic.

For things which ACTUALLY have an effect on the game the systems in place are good enough where you essentially get your guaranteed drop eventually now. Curation is essentially a guaranteed drop system for things that help you "win".

EdjeSwift makes a good point. The pieces I'm originally complaining about are purely cosmetic. This is exactly a situation where a "participation trophy" should apply, as it has no bearing on the game, nor anyone else's enjoyment of it. This is a great place to put a system that says this "thing" has a 0.3125% drop rate, or 27 tries, whichever comes first.

You'll have to excuse me if I don't believe there's a significant number of people who love grinding out the same world boss or running around to dolmens or geysers for hours on end. Seems like a lot of people in zone chat were complaining about it. But even if you love grinding out things in this game, there's always going to be PLENTY of other things left to grind.

DenverRalphy

dk_dunkirk wrote: »

thorwyn wrote: »

Like, "takes all the fun out of it" frustrating, and isn't "fun" supposed to be the point of a video game?

The point of a video game is that players are free to decide whether or not they are enjoying a game. What takes the "fun out of it" for you might be a driving motivation for the next person.
I would not want to have participation trophies. That would dull down the game even more and they might as well hand out everything in the daily login rewards at that point.

Part of the problem here is that the designers have to somehow find a way to make a game appeal to two very different demographics. On the one end are people who don't play much, and on the other are the people who are logged in 18 hours a day every day. Disclaimer, as someone with chronic health problems -- and there are a lot more of us in the various guilds I'm in than I would have ever guessed -- I'm towards the latter end of the spectrum.

EdjeSwift wrote: »

thorwyn wrote: »

The point of a video game is that some people are free to decide whether or not they are enjoying a game. What takes the "fun out of it" for you might be a driving motivation for the next person.
I would not want to have participation trophies. That would dull down the game even more and they might as well hand out everything in the daily login rewards at that point.

One of the issues we're seeing in the gaming scene is the "pity systems" becoming more popular so people think that this should be the norm, but they don't realize that the reason these systems exist is because of the ramifications of what is being pitied and their effect on the game. Pity systems are more prevalent in gacha style games where the thing being rolled for and eventually pity kicking in has an actual effect on the game, for the most part the things in this game that people want a pity system for are cosmetic. The anniversary style pages, purely cosmetic, crown crate items, purely cosmetic.

For things which ACTUALLY have an effect on the game the systems in place are good enough where you essentially get your guaranteed drop eventually now. Curation is essentially a guaranteed drop system for things that help you "win".

EdjeSwift makes a good point. The pieces I'm originally complaining about are purely cosmetic. This is exactly a situation where a "participation trophy" should apply, as it has no bearing on the game, nor anyone else's enjoyment of it. This is a great place to put a system that says this "thing" has a 0.3125% drop rate, or 27 tries, whichever comes first.

You'll have to excuse me if I don't believe there's a significant number of people who love grinding out the same world boss or running around to dolmens or geysers for hours on end. Seems like a lot of people in zone chat were complaining about it. But even if you love grinding out things in this game, there's always going to be PLENTY of other things left to grind.

Uhmmm.... hmmm... Are you sure you're reading their post correctly? Cuz it reads to me like they're saying the exact opposite of what you are. Eddie seems to read as if they're opposed to pity on cosmetic, whereas you're advocating for pity on cosmetic.

dk_dunkirk

DenverRalphy wrote: »

dk_dunkirk wrote: »

thorwyn wrote: »

Like, "takes all the fun out of it" frustrating, and isn't "fun" supposed to be the point of a video game?

The point of a video game is that players are free to decide whether or not they are enjoying a game. What takes the "fun out of it" for you might be a driving motivation for the next person.
I would not want to have participation trophies. That would dull down the game even more and they might as well hand out everything in the daily login rewards at that point.

Part of the problem here is that the designers have to somehow find a way to make a game appeal to two very different demographics. On the one end are people who don't play much, and on the other are the people who are logged in 18 hours a day every day. Disclaimer, as someone with chronic health problems -- and there are a lot more of us in the various guilds I'm in than I would have ever guessed -- I'm towards the latter end of the spectrum.

EdjeSwift wrote: »

thorwyn wrote: »

The point of a video game is that some people are free to decide whether or not they are enjoying a game. What takes the "fun out of it" for you might be a driving motivation for the next person.
I would not want to have participation trophies. That would dull down the game even more and they might as well hand out everything in the daily login rewards at that point.

One of the issues we're seeing in the gaming scene is the "pity systems" becoming more popular so people think that this should be the norm, but they don't realize that the reason these systems exist is because of the ramifications of what is being pitied and their effect on the game. Pity systems are more prevalent in gacha style games where the thing being rolled for and eventually pity kicking in has an actual effect on the game, for the most part the things in this game that people want a pity system for are cosmetic. The anniversary style pages, purely cosmetic, crown crate items, purely cosmetic.

For things which ACTUALLY have an effect on the game the systems in place are good enough where you essentially get your guaranteed drop eventually now. Curation is essentially a guaranteed drop system for things that help you "win".

EdjeSwift makes a good point. The pieces I'm originally complaining about are purely cosmetic. This is exactly a situation where a "participation trophy" should apply, as it has no bearing on the game, nor anyone else's enjoyment of it. This is a great place to put a system that says this "thing" has a 0.3125% drop rate, or 27 tries, whichever comes first.

You'll have to excuse me if I don't believe there's a significant number of people who love grinding out the same world boss or running around to dolmens or geysers for hours on end. Seems like a lot of people in zone chat were complaining about it. But even if you love grinding out things in this game, there's always going to be PLENTY of other things left to grind.

Uhmmm.... hmmm... Are you sure you're reading their post correctly? Cuz it reads to me like they're saying the exact opposite of what you are. Eddie seems to read as if they're opposed to pity on cosmetic, whereas you're advocating for pity on cosmetic.

You're free to interpret his response how you'd like. It doesn't matter to me. I was referencing his point because he makes the important distinction that these things don't matter. I'm making the point that since it doesn't, it further supports the idea of implementing a "pity system."

Dragonnord

No. The system is fine how it is now.

People are always in a hurry to get everything.
 

CGPsaint

I don't know that I would go so far as to say that we need guaranteed drops, but I also don't think that anyone should have to run DSA 100 time to get one lead. Maybe the two trains of thought can meet in the middle somewhere...

Dagoth_Rac

I would just increase drop rates of mythic gear leads. They are the only thing with actual gameplay impact that can be an endless farm if you have bad luck. Everything else gameplay-related has a pity system via curation.

dk_dunkirk

Dragonnord wrote: »

No. The system is fine how it is now.

People are always in a hurry to get everything.
 

Well alrighty then. I guess I stand corrected.

dk_dunkirk

CGPsaint wrote: »

I don't know that I would go so far as to say that we need guaranteed drops, but I also don't think that anyone should have to run DSA 100 time to get one lead. Maybe the two trains of thought can meet in the middle somewhere...

I've run Graven Deep twice now, specifically to farm the lead that drops from the secret bosses. There are 3, times 4 people, times two runs. That's 24 chances for the lead to drop, and it didn't for any of us. Do the creators of the game know how hard it is to get a group of people to run that dungeon, and do the secret bosses? There should be some consideration in the drop rate for something depending on how difficult it is to do the thing to get it. (And, yes, I've tried the group finder for this.) The lead at the end of HoF? Fine. People run that one all the time. Putting them in crappy dungeons people don't want to run? Ouch.

Orbital78

Icy_Waffles wrote: »

No. But I think something needs to be amended because running 4x for all body pieces and then 40+ more times for all weapons is ridiculous.

That is what guilds and friends are for, unless it is the newest content many of my guildmates have most of the armor and weapons done. At the end of the run we trade to help each other out. The end of the chapter events usually have double weapon drops too.

You could always pay someone to carry you for a curated drop that you must have. I prefer to just earn things myself, as you fill up your stickerbook hopefully you are learning and getting better at the mechanics to move to hard modes which have even more drops.

Orbital78

dk_dunkirk wrote: »

CGPsaint wrote: »

I don't know that I would go so far as to say that we need guaranteed drops, but I also don't think that anyone should have to run DSA 100 time to get one lead. Maybe the two trains of thought can meet in the middle somewhere...

I've run Graven Deep twice now, specifically to farm the lead that drops from the secret bosses. There are 3, times 4 people, times two runs. That's 24 chances for the lead to drop, and it didn't for any of us. Do the creators of the game know how hard it is to get a group of people to run that dungeon, and do the secret bosses? There should be some consideration in the drop rate for something depending on how difficult it is to do the thing to get it. (And, yes, I've tried the group finder for this.) The lead at the end of HoF? Fine. People run that one all the time. Putting them in crappy dungeons people don't want to run? Ouch.

It is incentive to get the dlc or plus probably. Personally I run that dungeon a ton, and have even finished up my no death and speed run with decent pugs. Getting players to do the side bosses is a bit more challenging but if you ask or get guild to help that should fix the situation. I don't recall the lead from the side bosses being that hard, but I did that mythic awhile ago.

If you're on PC-NA JimmyJJShabbadu does a community dungeons night with a queue system on Friday nights on stream and will try to bring you thought whatever dungeons you want (most nights). That is how I got my ERE, GD, SH and some other hard mode clears. Cnedra, Ninja, Gandork, and/or Jimmy are real solid players and will help those nights.

dk_dunkirk

Orbital78 wrote: »

dk_dunkirk wrote: »

CGPsaint wrote: »

I don't know that I would go so far as to say that we need guaranteed drops, but I also don't think that anyone should have to run DSA 100 time to get one lead. Maybe the two trains of thought can meet in the middle somewhere...

I've run Graven Deep twice now, specifically to farm the lead that drops from the secret bosses. There are 3, times 4 people, times two runs. That's 24 chances for the lead to drop, and it didn't for any of us. Do the creators of the game know how hard it is to get a group of people to run that dungeon, and do the secret bosses? There should be some consideration in the drop rate for something depending on how difficult it is to do the thing to get it. (And, yes, I've tried the group finder for this.) The lead at the end of HoF? Fine. People run that one all the time. Putting them in crappy dungeons people don't want to run? Ouch.

It is incentive to get the dlc or plus probably. Personally I run that dungeon a ton, and have even finished up my no death and speed run with decent pugs. Getting players to do the side bosses is a bit more challenging but if you ask or get guild to help that should fix the situation. I don't recall the lead from the side bosses being that hard, but I did that mythic awhile ago.

If you're on PC-NA JimmyJJShabbadu does a community dungeons night with a queue system on Friday nights and will try to bring you thought whatever dungeons you want (most nights). That is how I got my ERE, GD, SH and some other hard mode clears. Cnedra, Ninja, Gandork, and/or Jimmy are real solid players and will help those nights.

Just for the record, I'm part of 5 questing guilds, but they are mostly focused on trials. The JimmyJJ name seems familiar. I'll try to track them down and see what that's all about.

FriedEggSandwich

I would like to see more curation. I love that the scripts and most gear now drops what you don't have first. But dungeon final boss drops still appear to be random, which is frustrating if you're looking for a weapon. I wouldn't want dungeon drops to be openly tradeable though, I agree with El_Borracho that you should have to run the content here.

I'm not sure how the lead rng works; some leads like the malacath IC lead, or the oakensoul lockbox lead dropped really quickly for me, but others seem to take ages. Right now I'm ok with how this works, but I've heard some horror stories. Pure unweighted rng can be a pretty cruel system tbh, so I would hope they work towards all rng being weighted in some way, to some degree.

Edit: typo

VouxeTheMinotaur

disagree with this and agree with dragonnord's statement on how everyone's in a hurry to want stuff. it's not like the items are going anywhere or are in a limited time event like most other looter shooters / RPGs. Definitely get into guilds that are focused more on dungeoneering / helping out with anything, they're usual CP2800k+ players that are bored out of their mind but still like the game, they'll make a group and farm anything for hours to get you one piece of gear, great guilds and players who've become friends

Tornaad

dk_dunkirk wrote: »

From here: https://x.com/TFDUpdates/status/1818555260060811529. The First Decendant (which I've never played) is apparently going to implement a "guaranteed drop system," where the thing you're looking for is guaranteed to drop after a certain number of attempts. I've long thought that ESO should implement something like this.

The previous event had several unique style pages that dropped via various activities. I got "lucky" by having them drop after about an hour of doing each, but I know other people who spent 5 or 6 hours getting them, and people who NEVER got them. Especially for items like this, dropping during events, it seems to me there ought to be a "failsafe" where it would drop after a set number of tries. It would be extraordinarily frustrating to fail to get something you're trying to farm because you ran out of time. Like, "takes all the fun out of it" frustrating, and isn't "fun" supposed to be the point of a video game?

At the very least, if they won't implement a system like this, then they should make these kinds of items tradable, so you could buy one from a guild trader. (And, yes, I would then probably be complaining about the extortive prices for such things, but at least it would be possible.)

It sounds like they are talking about their own version of the curated drops that ESO has.

Necrotech_Master

dk_dunkirk wrote: »

CGPsaint wrote: »

I don't know that I would go so far as to say that we need guaranteed drops, but I also don't think that anyone should have to run DSA 100 time to get one lead. Maybe the two trains of thought can meet in the middle somewhere...

I've run Graven Deep twice now, specifically to farm the lead that drops from the secret bosses. There are 3, times 4 people, times two runs. That's 24 chances for the lead to drop, and it didn't for any of us. Do the creators of the game know how hard it is to get a group of people to run that dungeon, and do the secret bosses? There should be some consideration in the drop rate for something depending on how difficult it is to do the thing to get it. (And, yes, I've tried the group finder for this.) The lead at the end of HoF? Fine. People run that one all the time. Putting them in crappy dungeons people don't want to run? Ouch.

that lead isnt too hard to farm, get 1 other player, run normal, kill first side boss, reset

took me about 6-8 attempts doing this

theres maybe 2 mobs you have to kill before getting to this boss, it can be solo'd but for whatever reason its more difficult to reset the dungeon instance if you are solo

dk_dunkirk

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

dk_dunkirk wrote: »

CGPsaint wrote: »

I don't know that I would go so far as to say that we need guaranteed drops, but I also don't think that anyone should have to run DSA 100 time to get one lead. Maybe the two trains of thought can meet in the middle somewhere...

I've run Graven Deep twice now, specifically to farm the lead that drops from the secret bosses. There are 3, times 4 people, times two runs. That's 24 chances for the lead to drop, and it didn't for any of us. Do the creators of the game know how hard it is to get a group of people to run that dungeon, and do the secret bosses? There should be some consideration in the drop rate for something depending on how difficult it is to do the thing to get it. (And, yes, I've tried the group finder for this.) The lead at the end of HoF? Fine. People run that one all the time. Putting them in crappy dungeons people don't want to run? Ouch.

that lead isnt too hard to farm, get 1 other player, run normal, kill first side boss, reset

took me about 6-8 attempts doing this

theres maybe 2 mobs you have to kill before getting to this boss, it can be solo'd but for whatever reason its more difficult to reset the dungeon instance if you are solo

Well this would surely fix the annoying laser jumping puzzle problem!

Contraptions

Pity systems, drop tokens or curation for things like leads or certain hard to farm items would be nice for sure. The biggest one beneficiaries would be the Ancestral motif leads from treasure maps or leads from hard to farm events like DSA or hidden dungeon bosses.

I fail to see any downside from a pity system or token system. Most players are able to get the thing they want within a reasonable amount of grinding, with lucky players able to skip the grind even more. The pity system is only there to eliminate the rarer situations where extremely unlucky players end up trying tens or even a hundred times and still fail to get what they need. It is only there to put a hard cap on the amount of grinding you need to do and most people will never trigger it.

FlopsyPrince

It never ceases to amaze me that some, who usually have good RNG, oppose making that easier on others.

Are you also opposed to the upcoming curation changes? Are you making posts against that?

The whole point of playing is to do something you enjoy. A never-ending grind is not helpful for retaining users.

I am not sure why some exhibit such an attitude so much, which comes across as very selfish, but I have seen it over many years, at least until ZOS makes a change in an area to make something less grindy.

FlopsyPrince

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

dk_dunkirk wrote: »

CGPsaint wrote: »

I don't know that I would go so far as to say that we need guaranteed drops, but I also don't think that anyone should have to run DSA 100 time to get one lead. Maybe the two trains of thought can meet in the middle somewhere...

I've run Graven Deep twice now, specifically to farm the lead that drops from the secret bosses. There are 3, times 4 people, times two runs. That's 24 chances for the lead to drop, and it didn't for any of us. Do the creators of the game know how hard it is to get a group of people to run that dungeon, and do the secret bosses? There should be some consideration in the drop rate for something depending on how difficult it is to do the thing to get it. (And, yes, I've tried the group finder for this.) The lead at the end of HoF? Fine. People run that one all the time. Putting them in crappy dungeons people don't want to run? Ouch.

that lead isnt too hard to farm, get 1 other player, run normal, kill first side boss, reset

took me about 6-8 attempts doing this

theres maybe 2 mobs you have to kill before getting to this boss, it can be solo'd but for whatever reason its more difficult to reset the dungeon instance if you are solo

The need for such a kludge shows that the system is broken.

notyuu

Icy_Waffles wrote: »

No. But I think something needs to be amended because running 4x for all body pieces and then 40+ more times for all weapons is ridiculous.

What if they made it so that once you have collected all of the body pieces of all the sets in a dungeon all of the drops from the bosses become weapons/jewels?

wolfie1.0.

the only thing that they need to implement something like this for is leads.

thorwyn

It never ceases to amaze me that some, who usually have good RNG, oppose making that easier on others.

It never ceases to amaze me that people are deciding to play a MMO game and then come to the forums with a neverending stream of complaints and ideas and suggestions because the game is oh so tedious and because they are oh so busy.
There are thousands of games out there that don't have any element of grind or rng. Yet you folks chose this one.

Are you also opposed to the upcoming curation changes? Are you making posts against that?

I think the entire curation system and the sicker book is garbage in the first place, because it opened Pandora's box for "suggestions" and "QoL improvements" like this. Do I make posts against that? No, because it is a waste of time. But I do speak up against posts like this when my tolerance level is getting low.

The whole point of playing is to do something you enjoy.

Exactly! And some people enjoy the game as it is and agree that grinding is a core element of this genre. If I want instant gratification, I play Candy Crush.

A never-ending grind is not helpful for retaining users.

Funny... I'm playing MMO games for over 25 years and rng never drove me away from them. Quite the opposite. So if you make an assessment about the impact of key game mechanics, please speak for yourself and don't generalize.

wolfie1.0.

dk_dunkirk wrote: »

From here: https://x.com/TFDUpdates/status/1818555260060811529. The First Decendant (which I've never played) is apparently going to implement a "guaranteed drop system," where the thing you're looking for is guaranteed to drop after a certain number of attempts. I've long thought that ESO should implement something like this.

The previous event had several unique style pages that dropped via various activities. I got "lucky" by having them drop after about an hour of doing each, but I know other people who spent 5 or 6 hours getting them, and people who NEVER got them. Especially for items like this, dropping during events, it seems to me there ought to be a "failsafe" where it would drop after a set number of tries. It would be extraordinarily frustrating to fail to get something you're trying to farm because you ran out of time. Like, "takes all the fun out of it" frustrating, and isn't "fun" supposed to be the point of a video game?

At the very least, if they won't implement a system like this, then they should make these kinds of items tradable, so you could buy one from a guild trader. (And, yes, I would then probably be complaining about the extortive prices for such things, but at least it would be possible.)

First Descendant is a FTP looter shooter game that does not have a trading system and suffers from incredibly low drop rates to the point that it was intended to drive players to the cash shop for many items that drop in game.

dk_dunkirk wrote: »

CGPsaint wrote: »

I don't know that I would go so far as to say that we need guaranteed drops, but I also don't think that anyone should have to run DSA 100 time to get one lead. Maybe the two trains of thought can meet in the middle somewhere...

I've run Graven Deep twice now, specifically to farm the lead that drops from the secret bosses. There are 3, times 4 people, times two runs. That's 24 chances for the lead to drop, and it didn't for any of us. Do the creators of the game know how hard it is to get a group of people to run that dungeon, and do the secret bosses? There should be some consideration in the drop rate for something depending on how difficult it is to do the thing to get it. (And, yes, I've tried the group finder for this.) The lead at the end of HoF? Fine. People run that one all the time. Putting them in crappy dungeons people don't want to run? Ouch.

Since leads can't be traded it doesn't matter how often it drops or how many people get it, except that when others get the lead its flat out discouraging. Especially, if you know someone is on their 2nd or third drop for the lead.

Took me forever to get the ruins of mazz lead for the kilt...

Ph1p

I think most people would agree that the game should reward you for success. RNG-based drops don’t work that way. You can clear the related content or enemy again and again, but not get the reward.

Having said that, there is nothing wrong with requiring a lot of effort for rare rewards. So having a progression system where you need to do something X times (and X can be a high number) makes sense to me. ZOS already follows that paradigm with the stickerbook and many achievements.

However, this requires the game to track many more parameters for every single character. ZOS recently prioritized squeezing out extra performance over player QoL, when it comes to mail retention and trader listings. So I’m not hopeful for such a solution.