Arcanist Execute now and the whole 'balancing' thing

pklemming

Well, you removed our execute ability, and gave us nothing in exchange. We have said the changes to the other morph won't change how we play and yet you still insist on going this route.

Do you even take player feedback in to consideration, because it really seems you do not. I have yet to come across a company that ignores players to the extent ZoS does. Even CA changes things based on player feedback. True, they miss some big stuff, but at least they listen.

The prime example was templar jabs. Pretty much no one liked it and, yet, we still got it.

I am also unsure how you actually balance things, because it sure does not look like it is with calculations.

Arcanist was classed as balanced on release. After the changes recently, it was, again, classed as balanced. Apparently, it is still not balanced and Arcanist should use a weapon skill as an execute. Really? Your flagship class, with probably the highest percentage of players, and you do this. Are you deliberately trying to lose players?

Necro has been able to generate ulti out of combat for as long as I can remember, and NOW it is unbalanced. I'm not even going to touch the Blastbones fiasco.

Nightblade? Why, just why. What numbers did you grab from mid air to decide, "Hey, this skill is in the wrong tree, and has been for years... Whoops".

Warden, a class already struggling, " We are going to nerf your dps with this change no one really wants". Did you really look at the numbers and decide those changes made the class better. Able to compete with other classes that outshine it in content.

Right now, it looks like you are making stuff up as you go along. not listening to the player base and annoying people for no reason whatsoever. I would love to know the calculations made that render previous 'balances' incorrect, with the new ones being 'right'.

If only there were something like class reps... Oh, wait.....

Please stop making stuff up and calling it 'balancing'.it honestly feels like the combat team have been beaten by too many of X class in PVP and decide to 'fix that'. Whilst PVP is important, the main focus of the game is PVE, and right now you are not, imo, doing a good job of making changes in that area. This is a crying shame, too, as there has been some excellent work in other areas, like quests, zone design and others.

*edit* With the change from additive to multiplicative mitigation, please fix the way you do calculations, so some skills that show a mitigation number actually give that mitigation, and do not result in a zero change to your incoming damage. Again, numbers. Something saying it gives 3% mitigation should give 3, not 0.

xylena_lazarow

pklemming wrote: »

Please stop making stuff up and calling it 'balancing'.it honestly feels like the combat team have been beaten by too many of X class in PVP and decide to 'fix that'.

Arc is decidedly mid tier in PvP and this nerf pushes Arcs to either replace a class skill with the generic Whirling Blades, or go all in on laser shenanigans. PvP builds don't have room for "jack of all trades, master of none" utility skills, removing the execute damage simply kills Flail in PvP, the superfluous heal and root really should've gone instead.

IncultaWolf

The ability was 100% overloaded, it literally did everything in the game and deserved the nerf if you understand any concept of balance, but I think the heal and root should have been removed instead of the execute.

xylena_lazarow

IncultaWolf wrote: »

The ability was 100% overloaded, it literally did everything in the game and deserved the nerf if you understand any concept of balance, but I think the heal and root should have been removed instead of the execute.

Flail is only overloaded on paper, class skills should be more loaded than generics, in practice the slow cast and narrow hitbox justified its high impact. It was never unfair and never carried. Whirling Blades was already easier to land, and now it does more damage. There's plenty of other ways to generate Crux, especially with Scribing. Flail is now dead in PvP.

BananaBender

Arcanist was way overtuned in my opinion and even with this change it still is. Now we might start seeing some other classes being played which is more than welcome after a year of exclusively beaming. Though I agree, the changes in the past year/two years have been more than questionable when it comes to balancing.

CameraBeardThePirate

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

IncultaWolf wrote: »

The ability was 100% overloaded, it literally did everything in the game and deserved the nerf if you understand any concept of balance, but I think the heal and root should have been removed instead of the execute.

Flail is only overloaded on paper, class skills should be more loaded than generics, in practice the slow cast and narrow hitbox justified its high impact. It was never unfair and never carried. Whirling Blades was already easier to land, and now it does more damage. There's plenty of other ways to generate Crux, especially with Scribing. Flail is now dead in PvP.

Whirling Blades only does more damage in execute range. Flail has a higher base tooltip, not including the +5% damage taken.

The cast time on Flail is also negligible, as the cast time is under a Global Cooldown. It isn't affecting how many times you can cast Flail compared to other spammables.

If you're having trouble landing it, maybe aim better? Use pull sets? Stuns? That's kind of a learn to play problem.

xylena_lazarow

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

If you're having trouble landing it, maybe aim better? Use pull sets? Stuns? That's kind of a learn to play problem.

I can pull the CMX and BGs results from the other thread if you want to go this route. I really loved the aesthetic of Arc and its unique mechanics, but sadly Arcs are the least threatening DDs on the field to anyone who moves. This nerf does nothing but destroy class identity, while Arcs already struggle to keep up with the Sorc/Blade/Warden supremacy.

StarOfElyon

IncultaWolf wrote: »

The ability was 100% overloaded, it literally did everything in the game and deserved the nerf if you understand any concept of balance, but I think the heal and root should have been removed instead of the execute.

I say yes, it was overloaded but I think for a class that seemed aimed at one bar players or low APM players, it needed to be. So I wasn't mad at it. I only asked that the Necromancer class got the same treatment.

BananaBender

This shows pretty well how incredibly stale the meta has been on PvE side ever since arcanist has been released. It should definitely get nerfed, but they are focusing on the wrong skill to make an actual difference.

Credit to Geldis1306 for the picture and gathering the data.

LittlePinkDot

BananaBender wrote: »

This shows pretty well how incredibly stale the meta has been on PvE side ever since arcanist has been released. It should definitely get nerfed, but they are focusing on the wrong skill to make an actual difference.

Credit to Geldis1306 for the picture and gathering the data.

They already nerfed beam. But we were talking about PVP, not PVE. Arcanist kinda sucks in PvP.

As for PVE, maybe it's just because it's a channeled skill and you don't have to be godly good at a tedious rotation to DPS. Maybe Arcanist is just more accessible to average players.

I don't even bother to DPS in dungeons, I only tank or heal and I only do it if I want something. You would never catch me in a hard mode dungeon. Screw that.
Half of those Arcanist DPS probably wouldn't even bother playing at all if you nerfed them.
They're not going to just switch to another class. They'll just leave.

PvP is way more fun.

BananaBender

LittlePinkDot wrote: »

BananaBender wrote: »

This shows pretty well how incredibly stale the meta has been on PvE side ever since arcanist has been released. It should definitely get nerfed, but they are focusing on the wrong skill to make an actual difference.

Credit to Geldis1306 for the picture and gathering the data.

They already nerfed beam. But we were talking about PVP, not PVE. Arcanist kinda sucks in PvP.

As for PVE, maybe it's just because it's a channeled skill and you don't have to be godly good at a tedious rotation to DPS. Maybe Arcanist is just more accessible to average players.

I don't even bother to DPS in dungeons, I only tank or heal and I only do it if I want something. You would never catch me in a hard mode dungeon. Screw that.
Half of those Arcanist DPS probably wouldn't even bother playing at all if you nerfed them.
They're not going to just switch to another class. They'll just leave.

PvP is way more fun.

First off, when was this about PvP? Second of all, as long as PvE and PvP are not separated there is no reason to have just PvP or PvE discussions. The beam neft was a good start but not enough.

As it says on the title of the picture, this is data collected from the hardest trials in the game, not random dungeons, which means that it's not only because the class is easy to play, it's also by far the most effective one.

To me arcanist should be a viable class for people who don't want to have such an active rotation, but it shouldn't be the best class in all encounters while being by far the easiest to play.

xylena_lazarow

BananaBender wrote: »

First off, when was this about PvP?

OP suggested the nerf may have been PvP related, which seems unlikely since Arc is mid in PvP, and despite how good Flail looks on paper, was barely even cracking into the PvP meta, let alone carrying anything or being nerf worthy. Definitely a bad nerf for both PvE and PvP, solves nothing, just reduces PvP class skill diversity.

Also funny how NB and Arc flip flop viability from PvE to PvP.

LittlePinkDot

Nightblade is clearly the best PvP class along with Mag sorc.

BananaBender

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Also funny how NB and Arc flip flop viability from PvE to PvP.

Yeah, it's sad that NB is now barely even a class in endgame PvE. A sorc being in most comps is pushing it out even as a healer.

Skjaldbjorn

LittlePinkDot wrote: »

BananaBender wrote: »

This shows pretty well how incredibly stale the meta has been on PvE side ever since arcanist has been released. It should definitely get nerfed, but they are focusing on the wrong skill to make an actual difference.

Credit to Geldis1306 for the picture and gathering the data.

They already nerfed beam. But we were talking about PVP, not PVE. Arcanist kinda sucks in PvP.

As for PVE, maybe it's just because it's a channeled skill and you don't have to be godly good at a tedious rotation to DPS. Maybe Arcanist is just more accessible to average players.

I don't even bother to DPS in dungeons, I only tank or heal and I only do it if I want something. You would never catch me in a hard mode dungeon. Screw that.
Half of those Arcanist DPS probably wouldn't even bother playing at all if you nerfed them.
They're not going to just switch to another class. They'll just leave.

PvP is way more fun.

No lol. While a lot of PVE DPS actually really enjoy the relaxed playstyle, many end-game PVE players (myself included) aren't huge Arc fans and would rather be playing something else.

In my opinion, the best way to balance Arc in PVE would be for beam to no longer proc Azureblight. It's the core reason why Arc dominates AoE encounters so incredibly hard.

notyuu

Given that flail is/was
-ranged
-full cleave aoe
-self healing
-debuffing
-crux building
-execute scaling
-spamable


It needed Something done to it to reign in it's massively overloaded toolkit, if all it had was the execute damage, then you'd have a point about complaining about not getting anything back, but as it stands the loss of the execute is fine as it still builds crux and still heals you and still debuffs.

Wanna still hentai blast people in PvP? Then run the mag morph + rune blades and explode them with that 11% debuff + damage per crux spent

xylena_lazarow

notyuu wrote: »

It needed Something done to it to reign in it's massively overloaded toolkit

The something to do isn't a nerf. It's for you to learn to move out of the way of one of the slowest attacks in the game, not max range, countered by Major Evasion, has narrow horizontal hitbox, completely toothless if used as pure spam because Arc can't back it up without stacking procs, nowhere near Concealed Weapon or even generic Crushing Shock.

Skjaldbjorn

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

notyuu wrote: »

It needed Something done to it to reign in it's massively overloaded toolkit

The something to do isn't a nerf. It's for you to learn to move out of the way of one of the slowest attacks in the game, not max range, countered by Major Evasion, has narrow horizontal hitbox, completely toothless if used as pure spam because Arc can't back it up without stacking procs, nowhere near Concealed Weapon or even generic Crushing Shock.

It's almost like PVP isn't the only thing they balance for. While it's true beam is the bigger issue in PVE, Flail was still grossly overloaded.

xylena_lazarow

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

Flail was still grossly overloaded

Compared to what? Maybe buff bad skills instead of destroying Arc's tentacle like they did Plar jabs?

Galeriano2

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

notyuu wrote: »

It needed Something done to it to reign in it's massively overloaded toolkit

The something to do isn't a nerf. It's for you to learn to move out of the way of one of the slowest attacks in the game, not max range, countered by Major Evasion, has narrow horizontal hitbox, completely toothless if used as pure spam because Arc can't back it up without stacking procs, nowhere near Concealed Weapon or even generic Crushing Shock.

Going by this logic it's for You to learn to use Flail properly to minimize mentioned drawbacks.

Galeriano2

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

Flail was still grossly overloaded

Compared to what? Maybe buff bad skills instead of destroying Arc's tentacle like they did Plar jabs?

Compared to all the other abilities. It's really hard to find other abilities providing so many features at once. Even good skills often pale in comparison.

xylena_lazarow

Galeriano2 wrote: »

It's really hard to find other abilities providing so many features at once.

Hardened Ward

Skjaldbjorn

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

Flail was still grossly overloaded

Compared to what? Maybe buff bad skills instead of destroying Arc's tentacle like they did Plar jabs?

Any other core class spammable? Jabs is the closest in design, and is significantly worse as far as utility.

BananaBender

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Galeriano2 wrote: »

It's really hard to find other abilities providing so many features at once.

Hardened Ward

Flail on live, AoE spammable that does full damage to every target, heals the caster, immobilizes the enemy, has a good execute scaling and creates crux.

Hardened Ward, gives a shield and heals.

I don't think these two skills are comparable in any way really.

Galeriano2

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Galeriano2 wrote: »

It's really hard to find other abilities providing so many features at once.

Hardened Ward

Not even close when it comes to amount of features provided. Hardened ward is actually on the lower end in that category.

BananaBender

(In PvE POV)
While the flail isn't the most damaging skill in arcanists toolkit, it does enable the most. You don't have to run a self heal since flail will cover that, you don't have to think about switching spammables between AoE and single target fights since flail is fantastic in both. It's mostly used to create crux to enable your beam, so if you think about it, everything else the skill does is just an added bonus for just extra utility sake. That's why no one is using Runeblades, they simply don't bring enough to the table compared to Flail. Even if Flail nor Runeblades dealt any damage, arcanist would still be played.

Removing the execute will not affect how you use the ability at all. The execute just was there to do more damage, which was not needed at all.

Edit: Forgot to mention the unique 5% damage bonus Flail provides

xylena_lazarow

BananaBender wrote: »

I don't think these two skills are comparable in any way really.

You must not PvP then (the person I replied to is/was a PvP Sorc main). I don't think I've ever died to Flail. Concealed Weapon and Crushing Shock, all the time. Hardened Ward is broken overpowered. I mained a PvP Arc for 3mo earlier this year, before the MDW nerf and the ridiculous Sorc buff, Flail was good but couldn't really be said to outperform Whirling Blades, Burning Talons, or Power Extraction. The nerf won't affect laser bombers but makes the proc vessel Arcs worse.

BananaBender

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

BananaBender wrote: »

I don't think these two skills are comparable in any way really.

You must not PvP then (the person I replied to is/was a PvP Sorc main). I don't think I've ever died to Flail. Concealed Weapon and Crushing Shock, all the time. Hardened Ward is broken overpowered. I mained a PvP Arc for 3mo earlier this year, before the MDW nerf and the ridiculous Sorc buff, Flail was good but couldn't really be said to outperform Whirling Blades, Burning Talons, or Power Extraction. The nerf won't affect laser bombers but makes the proc vessel Arcs worse.

I'm sure in terms of damage it does fall short to some other executes, but the utility it provides is insane. In a beamless PvP build it's not nearly as much, since arcanist lacks other good options to consume crux to deal damage other than the beam, so of course it will feel like an underwhelming skill. But that's not really a shortcoming on Flail's side and more on the rest of the arcanist's kit.

xylena_lazarow

BananaBender wrote: »

But that's not really a shortcoming on Flail's side and more on the rest of the arcanist's kit.

Flail was the coolest thing about Arc's kit to me, class power fantasy defining even if janky to land, now it's relegated to cc/debuff bot spam. A better comparison in PvP would be NB's Power Extraction. It's just as loaded with utility, but unlike Flail, it provides self buffs, it's instant cast and point blank 8m radius, so hit hits everything you want it to hit effortlessly, while countering opposing NBs and roll spammers. They're both fine in PvP, no nerfs needed here.

LittlePinkDot

notyuu wrote: »

Given that flail is/was
-ranged
-full cleave aoe
-self healing
-debuffing
-crux building
-execute scaling
-spamable


It needed Something done to it to reign in it's massively overloaded toolkit, if all it had was the execute damage, then you'd have a point about complaining about not getting anything back, but as it stands the loss of the execute is fine as it still builds crux and still heals you and still debuffs.

Wanna still hentai blast people in PvP? Then run the mag morph + rune blades and explode them with that 11% debuff + damage per crux spent

It's been mentioned before, everyone would've preferred they dropped the heal, not the execute. Now Arcanist has no execute in PvP. And they Need a crux builder so they can't even replace it with a weapon skill execute. They now need to use a whole extra bar slot for an execute if they want one.

Marto

LittlePinkDot wrote: »

It's been mentioned before, everyone would've preferred they dropped the heal, not the execute. Now Arcanist has no execute in PvP. And they Need a crux builder so they can't even replace it with a weapon skill execute. They now need to use a whole extra bar slot for an execute if they want one.

Then... they don't get execute. Simple as that. Just how Dragonknights and Wardens don't get execute.
The rest of the kit is strong enough. Arcanists being unable to execute sounds like a fair downside to the class.

Templars are slow. Dragonknights have poor passive recovery. Sorcerers lack a spammable. Wardens don't have any crit bonuses. Etc. It's fine for classes to have downsides.