Just remove the Undeath Vampire Passive

elven.were_wolf · July 20

Okay, let me explain.
1. I find it rather telling of the state of the game’s combat when it is mandatory to spec into vampirism to even survive PVP. Since it is difficult to adjust the damage output as that would mess things up in PvE, just add a passive to PvP that would make people tankier in that field.
2. The undeath passive’s theme made no sense, vampires are creatures of the night, they rely on stealth to survive not tankiness. If anything Werewolves are supposed to be the ones with the tankiness theme. However I am not saying that werewolves need a passive because that would just be unbalanced.
3. Even if no passive was added to PvP at least tanky sets like Pariah’s would be viable again.

TX12001rwb17_ESO · July 20

Your msking a whole lot of assumptions there stating Vampires survive with stealth, do you see any Vampire Lords or Bloodknights look like they are using stealth to survive?

Vampires are tanky because as the term undeath implies they are undead, Werewolves are not undead, Vampires are not alive and it should be quite a feat to kill what is already dead, if anything they are not tanky enough but that would break balance.

YandereGirlfriend · July 20

TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »

Your msking a whole lot of assumptions there stating Vampires survive with stealth, do you see any Vampire Lords or Bloodknights look like they are using stealth to survive?

Vampires are tanky because as the term undeath implies they are undead, Werewolves are not undead, Vampires are not alive and it should be quite a feat to kill what is already dead, if anything they are not tanky enough but that would break balance.

Right, but if we're going full on RP with the passives (and, IMO, we should) then vamps should also receive penalties during daylight, etc.

Zyaneth_Bal · July 21

elven.were_wolf wrote: »

Okay, let me explain.
1. I find it rather telling of the state of the game’s combat when it is mandatory to spec into vampirism to even survive PVP. Since it is difficult to adjust the damage output as that would mess things up in PvE, just add a passive to PvP that would make people tankier in that field.
2. The undeath passive’s theme made no sense, vampires are creatures of the night, they rely on stealth to survive not tankiness. If anything Werewolves are supposed to be the ones with the tankiness theme. However I am not saying that werewolves need a passive because that would just be unbalanced.
3. Even if no passive was added to PvP at least tanky sets like Pariah’s would be viable again.

That is exactly what battle spirit does, adjusting damage done/received and healing values in pvp. Much has changes since it was last touched, it might need adjustments.

TX12001rwb17_ESO · July 21

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »

Your msking a whole lot of assumptions there stating Vampires survive with stealth, do you see any Vampire Lords or Bloodknights look like they are using stealth to survive?

Vampires are tanky because as the term undeath implies they are undead, Werewolves are not undead, Vampires are not alive and it should be quite a feat to kill what is already dead, if anything they are not tanky enough but that would break balance.

Right, but if we're going full on RP with the passives (and, IMO, we should) then vamps should also receive penalties during daylight, etc.

Except this clan is not affected by Sunlight and historically in RL mythology they never were, that was something added in 1922's Nosferatu, it is good for a game with Vampires to finally reflect that.

PrinceShroob · July 22

TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »

Except this clan is not affected by Sunlight and historically in RL mythology they never were, that was something added in 1922's Nosferatu, it is good for a game with Vampires to finally reflect that.

Well, not quite. Nosferatu was the first vampire media to depict a vampire being killed by the sun, but even in Dracula, the titular vampire avoided sunlight--it limited his powers, though he could still walk in sunlight and pose as a mortal if necessary, and Dr. Van Helsing would often speak of the characters being safe from the Count from sunrise to sunset.

As for the Undeath passive specifically, there's no real source for vampires in Elder Scrolls being harder to kill as they come closer to death, specifically. Vampires are often described as supernaturally tough and durable. A more specific source might be vampires' resistance to Normal Weapons in Morrowind and Oblivion.

In Arena and Daggerfall, vampires cannot be harmed at all by mundane weapons, such as iron and steel; this ability is probably taken from the scene in Dracula where a member of the Demeter's crew attempts to stab Dracula, but the knife passes harmlessly through him. In Morrowind and Oblivion, typically only non-corporeal creatures like ghosts are totally immune to normal weapons; vampires are instead merely resistant (I think this is supposed to tie into folklore about silver harming unholy beings, but technically anything better than silver works in Morrowind, including weapons made by the famously ungodly Dwemer). In Oblivion, vampires become more resistant to normal weapons as they become stronger and forgo feeding.

Mechanically it is a bit unusual that vampires have a passive about, essentially, standing your ground when their other passives are about using stealth and invisibility. I suppose the idea was that you'd be built more like a ganker and Undeath would help you survive longer if you were discovered, and it wasn't really intended to be paired with high health and resistances.

Nissowolf · July 22

TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »

Except this clan is not affected by Sunlight and historically in RL mythology they never were, that was something added in 1922's Nosferatu, it is good for a game with Vampires to finally reflect that.

Except this clan has been specifically created, like a lot of things in ESO, to accomodate the player so that you don't have malus in sunlight. But it doesn't make any sense to have a vampire immune to sunlight in Lore. If you don't see that, it's because it accomodates you.

CameraBeardThePirate · July 22

elven.were_wolf wrote: »

Okay, let me explain.
1. I find it rather telling of the state of the game’s combat when it is mandatory to spec into vampirism to even survive PVP. Since it is difficult to adjust the damage output as that would mess things up in PvE, just add a passive to PvP that would make people tankier in that field.

This first point isn't remotely true.

It is not, and has never been mandatory to run Undeath in order to survive in PvP. I haven't run Undeath in months personally, on any class, and I get by just fine.

The problem with Undeath isn't that it's mandatory, it's that Undeath is ridiculously powerful for basically no trade-off. The only real negative is that it's harder to sustain as a stage 3 vamp, as the other Vampire downsides are directly offset by Undeath.

It's not a matter of "You need to run Undeath", but rather a "You should probably run Undeath because there's very little reason not to."

Remathilis · July 22

Remove vampire and make it a skin. People won't be satisfied until it's basically that anyway.

TX12001rwb17_ESO · July 23

Nissowolf wrote: »

TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »

Except this clan is not affected by Sunlight and historically in RL mythology they never were, that was something added in 1922's Nosferatu, it is good for a game with Vampires to finally reflect that.

Except this clan has been specifically created, like a lot of things in ESO, to accomodate the player so that you don't have malus in sunlight. But it doesn't make any sense to have a vampire immune to sunlight in Lore. If you don't see that, it's because it accomodates you.

It is also the original Vampire clan within the setting? why do you think the strongest Bloodline would be effected?

gariondavey · July 23

Remove undeath, sure.
Add 5 percent unique movespeed at stage 3 and above instead.