My One Ask: Resource Costs

OutlawShadow

First, I want to give a shoutout and a thank you to the devs and community for being awesome. This post is made with love from a player with average skill that has played on and off since beta. I have my monkey and everything.

I would like to see all skills have either:
1) Resource costs for most skills(or at least more) based on highest/lowest resource
-or-
2) A way to set the resource used per skill (probably the least likely)
-or-
3) Have heavy attacks refill the highest resource, regardless of weapon type (and maybe a little of the secondary resource, or maybe let us choose which resource gets charged on each weapon bar?)

Why and reasoning. I know that every class can technically be played any way. You can use specific morphs to align some skills with either Stam or Mag. HOWEVER! The skills you can morph are in the minority of many classes. This goes against the core concept (in my opinion) of ESO's "Play Your Way" ethos.

There have been times when I take a morph for a skill only because its what my build can use (resource wise), not because it's what I wanted to use, or what sounds coolest. An example would be running a pure melee Sorc that uses mostly class abilities. It's doable, sure, but you can ignore a good portion of the Sorc's skills, unless you don't want to be pure melee and grab a staff. Most likely you will just end up being a character that uses weapon skills with a couple class skills. That's not very "Play Your Way."

I know scribing has shifted this substantially. However, you are then just shoe-horned into using scribed abilities, and still unable to use the abilities you may truly want to. I also know about respeccing and the armory system, but those ignore the core concept I would like to see tweaked.

To keep this from hitting TLDR territory, I'll end it here. I think I've conveyed my general idea well enough. I'm still going to play, I'd just be much happier playing my way (entitled I know :P ).

I love each and every one of you and hope you are having an amazing day, and, if not, I hope it goes better.

Soarora

ESO's play how you want refers to there being content for everyone and many ways to build, not that every way of building works. Arcanist's highest/lowest resource changing the cost mechanic makes magarc "stamarc but worse", leaving there with absolutely no reason to even play magarc. And that's coming from someone who encourages off-meta builds if someone wants to use an off-meta build. Having every skill be like that would ruin class diversity even further. I think instead, there needs to be viable stam and viable mag morphs of every skill.

OutlawShadow

Soarora wrote: »

ESO's play how you want refers to there being content for everyone and many ways to build, not that every way of building works. Arcanist's highest/lowest resource changing the cost mechanic makes magarc "stamarc but worse", leaving there with absolutely no reason to even play magarc. And that's coming from someone who encourages off-meta builds if someone wants to use an off-meta build. Having every skill be like that would ruin class diversity even further. I think instead, there needs to be viable stam and viable mag morphs of every skill.

May I ask for further clarification? My recommendation was that all morphs would be useable. Is the current Mag morph the best, but you are running Stam? Well, with the change I asked for, you would be able to take the best morph, regardless of Stam or Mag.

That was kinda my point. We shouldn't be locked out of certain morphs due to resource options for classes. The abilities themselves wouldn't change, only the resource used, or method of resource regeneration.

I feel it would increase class diversity because people would be using more class skills because they have the option to use any skill with any morph without worrying about which resource is used. More viable ways to play each class means a more diverse class.

Major_Toughness

The weaponization of the "Play how you want" mantra to complain about literally every aspect on the game because you can't make one specific niche build to run in overland content, that dies in one shot anyway, needs to stop.

Play how you want doesn't mean you get unlimited customisations.

It means you can play any class you want, in any role you want, and clear the games content.

You can play melee Sorc and have max Magicka and use all the class skills because they cost magicka. You do not need to play stamina or have stamina morphs to play dual wield. Haven't since the beginning of the game.

If your resource management sucks, fix that rather than trying to change heavy attacks or every skill in the game.

Vaqual

#1+#3: That would absolutely obliterate hybrid resource management.

#2: that would remove resource cost as balancing parameter and single recovery stacking would be the most op stat due to increasing returns

Neither would be as good for you/the game as you think.

Edit: Of course not the #3 variant with the stuff in the brackets. That is actually intriguing.

LunaFlora

i like number 3.
i would love it if my weapon refills my highest resource even if it's a bow for Magicka or a staff for Stamina.

LittlePinkDot

Soarora wrote: »

ESO's play how you want refers to there being content for everyone and many ways to build, not that every way of building works. Arcanist's highest/lowest resource changing the cost mechanic makes magarc "stamarc but worse", leaving there with absolutely no reason to even play magarc. And that's coming from someone who encourages off-meta builds if someone wants to use an off-meta build. Having every skill be like that would ruin class diversity even further. I think instead, there needs to be viable stam and viable mag morphs of every skill.

Mag arc tank is the best! You can still use your stamina with sword and board on your back bar.

OutlawShadow

Major_Toughness wrote: »

The weaponization of the "Play how you want" mantra to complain about literally every aspect on the game because you can't make one specific niche build to run in overland content, that dies in one shot anyway, needs to stop.

Play how you want doesn't mean you get unlimited customisations.

It means you can play any class you want, in any role you want, and clear the games content.

You can play melee Sorc and have max Magicka and use all the class skills because they cost magicka. You do not need to play stamina or have stamina morphs to play dual wield. Haven't since the beginning of the game.

If your resource management sucks, fix that rather than trying to change heavy attacks or every skill in the game.

I don't understand your hostility. I'm not following some "mantra" but merely commenting on something the developers say. Its literally the first section in this forum post.
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/624269/eso-developer-deep-dive-core-combat-values/p1

My post was merely an ask. I'm not saying this is how the game has to be. As I said, I like the game, I'd just like it more with more options. I'm sure the amazing dev team can think of a way (probably better) to implement this. This was just a way to convey what I (and at least some of the community) would like.

I would like to counter your comment of "X ... Needs to stop," with, "Elitist who think their way of playing is the right way because they don't want to have to watch tutorials and build guides over again when something changes because they have to be meta and are unable to do things for themselves, and if even the devs make a change against them then the devs are wrong, and also don't want anyone else to have fun, even though it wouldn't effect them," needs to stop (sentence structure intentional). Me having fun questing and running around the map isn't going to diminish your oh-so-amazing in-game achievements (sarcasm aside, some of them are actually impressive and I am sometimes jealous I don't have the time to try these things. Seriously, I could probably name a good equipment set and you could probably tell me off the top of your head where to find it. Genuinely impressive). I barely have time to play, let alone research sets and skills and rotations and possible "build" interactions to see how to "fix my resource management." (By play I mean basic game content. I have never done trials, or VET dungeons, or non-zerg PvP.)

Bottom line, let people have fun. If you are as good of a player as you think you are, you can adapt and thrive in any patch. I believe in you.

Soarora

OutlawShadow wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

ESO's play how you want refers to there being content for everyone and many ways to build, not that every way of building works. Arcanist's highest/lowest resource changing the cost mechanic makes magarc "stamarc but worse", leaving there with absolutely no reason to even play magarc. And that's coming from someone who encourages off-meta builds if someone wants to use an off-meta build. Having every skill be like that would ruin class diversity even further. I think instead, there needs to be viable stam and viable mag morphs of every skill.

May I ask for further clarification? My recommendation was that all morphs would be useable. Is the current Mag morph the best, but you are running Stam? Well, with the change I asked for, you would be able to take the best morph, regardless of Stam or Mag.

That's what I mean. That means both stam and mag will be using the same single morph, the other morph will be pointless unless it has niche use in PvE or PvP and both stam and mag will play the exact same but with different resource bars. (For instance, mag and stam arcanist both use the same beam skill, thus the same spammable, which is part of why both flavors of arcanist DPS look almost identical)

With hybridization, you can take mag or stam morphs and change your regeneration to match or just balance between mag and stam because mag and stam skills both scale off your weapon or spell damage/highest resource damage-wise. This demolished a lot of difference between stam and mag playstyles however it does at least allow this pick and choose you want. Making every morph have dynamic costs would obliterate what differences we have left between mag and stam playstyles.

Amottica

Soarora wrote: »

ESO's play how you want refers to there being content for everyone and many ways to build, not that every way of building works. Arcanist's highest/lowest resource changing the cost mechanic makes magarc "stamarc but worse", leaving there with absolutely no reason to even play magarc. And that's coming from someone who encourages off-meta builds if someone wants to use an off-meta build. Having every skill be like that would ruin class diversity even further. I think instead, there needs to be viable stam and viable mag morphs of every skill.

I agree with two points made here.

1. Playing as you want means we can wear whatever armor weight and equip our weapons of choice.

2. Making it so we can customize every minute spec of a build would have unintended consequences, which, in this case, is likely to significantly increase the load on the server. Let us not forget that hybridization changes have also done more to homogenize the game and reduce class diversity, which is an aspect @Soarora notes would likely happen with the suggestion being made.

Amottica

OutlawShadow wrote: »

Major_Toughness wrote: »

The weaponization of the "Play how you want" mantra to complain about literally every aspect on the game because you can't make one specific niche build to run in overland content, that dies in one shot anyway, needs to stop.

Play how you want doesn't mean you get unlimited customisations.

It means you can play any class you want, in any role you want, and clear the games content.

You can play melee Sorc and have max Magicka and use all the class skills because they cost magicka. You do not need to play stamina or have stamina morphs to play dual wield. Haven't since the beginning of the game.

If your resource management sucks, fix that rather than trying to change heavy attacks or every skill in the game.

I don't understand your hostility. I'm not following some "mantra" but merely commenting on something the developers say. Its literally the first section in this forum post.
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/624269/eso-developer-deep-dive-core-combat-values/p1.

Following that link: In the section where they discuss the play-as-you-want, they make it very clear that it means we have a very large selection of armor, weapons, and skills at our disposal to create our builds. They also make it clear that some builds will be more effective than others which directly addresses the suggestion.

That means that some morphs will be more effective than other morphs which also depends on the build.

OutlawShadow

Amottica wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

ESO's play how you want refers to there being content for everyone and many ways to build, not that every way of building works. Arcanist's highest/lowest resource changing the cost mechanic makes magarc "stamarc but worse", leaving there with absolutely no reason to even play magarc. And that's coming from someone who encourages off-meta builds if someone wants to use an off-meta build. Having every skill be like that would ruin class diversity even further. I think instead, there needs to be viable stam and viable mag morphs of every skill.

I agree with two points made here.

1. Playing as you want means we can wear whatever armor weight and equip our weapons of choice.

2. Making it so we can customize every minute spec of a build would have unintended consequences, which, in this case, is likely to significantly increase the load on the server. Let us not forget that hybridization changes have also done more to homogenize the game and reduce class diversity, which is an aspect @Soarora notes would likely happen with the suggestion being made.

1) But you cannot equip your weapon of choice. If you want to use Mag you MUST equip a staff, and to use STAM you MUST equip melee or bow. If you want to use a mix, you MUST equip both.

In the post they say some builds will be less effective. Being pure melee mag isn't just less effective, its ineffective. There are plenty of skills that don't even have alternate resource morphs.

2a) This isn't a minute part of your build. It is being able to afford the spells you want to use. A fallacy.
2b) Every change has unintended consequences, so that's a moot point. A fallacy.
2c) Unless you are intimately familiar with the server architecture, this is absolute speculation. A fallacy.
Fallacies are not an argument. They are a lack of one.

Soarora wrote: »

OutlawShadow wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

ESO's play how you want refers to there being content for everyone and many ways to build, not that every way of building works. Arcanist's highest/lowest resource changing the cost mechanic makes magarc "stamarc but worse", leaving there with absolutely no reason to even play magarc. And that's coming from someone who encourages off-meta builds if someone wants to use an off-meta build. Having every skill be like that would ruin class diversity even further. I think instead, there needs to be viable stam and viable mag morphs of every skill.

May I ask for further clarification? My recommendation was that all morphs would be useable. Is the current Mag morph the best, but you are running Stam? Well, with the change I asked for, you would be able to take the best morph, regardless of Stam or Mag.

That's what I mean. That means both stam and mag will be using the same single morph, the other morph will be pointless unless it has niche use in PvE or PvP and both stam and mag will play the exact same but with different resource bars. (For instance, mag and stam arcanist both use the same beam skill, thus the same spammable, which is part of why both flavors of arcanist DPS look almost identical)

With hybridization, you can take mag or stam morphs and change your regeneration to match or just balance between mag and stam because mag and stam skills both scale off your weapon or spell damage/highest resource damage-wise. This demolished a lot of difference between stam and mag playstyles however it does at least allow this pick and choose you want. Making every morph have dynamic costs would obliterate what differences we have left between mag and stam playstyles.

Ah, I see your point. I feel this is partially my mistake because I'm not the best at communicating ideas, and have chosen poor words in certain places.

Please allow me to try to explain in a different way. This way I know that we are on the same page, and, if you are so inclined, we can continue to exchange ideas on the matter.

First, hello! I hope you are having a pleasant day!

Second, my use of best, when saying that a mag or stam skill is best, was the wrong choice of words. It was more implied as in what you like best, and not in a meta best kind of way.

Next, I absolutely agree that the dynamic resource cost isn't the way to go. I believe it even more so after talking to some IRL people about it, and hearing the feedback on this post.

Essentially ignore ideas 1 and 2 from above. These were more of a supporting concept to try to convey mt desire for the ability to use more skills. I don't want to edit the post and remove them because anyone who tries to follow along could get confused, and it can sometimes look kinda shifty when people edit comments during a discussion. (Plus I'm not knowledgeable enough in the forums to do it)(wait, I think I have an idea. I think I can use strikethrough? I'll try to figure it out)

To the point of less diversity, I see what you are saying. My comment on this would be it's more of a skill balancing issue. If everyone is picking option A over option B, then one of the 2 is broken, and should be fixed. Hypothetically, it would make the issue easier to see for the devs if everyone has A over B, and it would be balanced. Unfortunately, that isn't always how things go. Therefore your apprehensions and concerns there are 100% valid and agreeable.

Now, what about point 3 above? Specifically the part where you can choose what resource your heavy attacks refund. That would, hypothetically, not alter the balance as much. You wouldn't get more damage on your off resource skills, but you could sustain them. This would make them less effective, and still give some flexibility with your build. This is the option that is getting the most positive feedback, and the one I actually prefer. It boils down to you not being forced to use a weapon type just to sustain everything. As it is, people already do this by throwing a bow or staff on their back bar. This just gives more freedom with weapon selection and overall playstyle concept. THIS is what I am really asking and aiming for.

I hope this makes more sense, and I am open to, and welcome, more feedback and criticism.

LittlePinkDot

You really only need your main spammable to match your main resource.

Soarora

OutlawShadow wrote: »

1) But you cannot equip your weapon of choice. If you want to use Mag you MUST equip a staff, and to use STAM you MUST equip melee or bow. If you want to use a mix, you MUST equip both.

In the post they say some builds will be less effective. Being pure melee mag isn't just less effective, its ineffective. There are plenty of skills that don't even have alternate resource morphs.

Pure melee mag is effective, and absolutely you do not need to use a staff to be a mag character. Before arcanist and even now in some ways, magicka dragonknight was the top DPS in the game. Magicka dragonknight is melee and uses daggers on frontbar and a greatsword backbar. This same thought process goes for other classes as well:
Dragonknight is melee because their class spammable--whip--is melee, so you might as well use daggers because they have the best stats.
Templar is the same, they're melee because their class spammable--jabs--is melee, so you also might as well use daggers (unless you're doing ranged templar because of how strong beam is but that's a newer thing).
Arcanist is ranged but often played in melee range (same with any other build, melee range is good for skills that are aoes around you, in group content it's good so healers can effectively buff you, in solo content you are in melee range because the enemies will chase you anyways...) and also uses daggers because of Velothi Amulet, it's fine to just hit air.
Magicka nightblade is also melee, so you are also best off using daggers.
This is just speaking on meta, of course, you can use any weapon you want. But point is, the best mag builds for several classes actually are melee without staves. The only class you actually need to use a staff on is magicka warden because winters revenge requires a staff to get the most damage out of it, plus a lot of magicka warden damage comes from frost reach.
I'm not sure if your argument is based on not knowing about hybridization or sustain, but any morph and any weapon scales the same regardless on if you're mag or stam. Sustain-wise, well, just pick some morphs of the opposite cost from your main pool. Also, make sure you're using a food that is max main resource + recovery at least. You should not need to regularly heavy attack for resources most of the time.

OutlawShadow wrote: »

Second, my use of best, when saying that a mag or stam skill is best, was the wrong choice of words. It was more implied as in what you like best, and not in a meta best kind of way.

You can already do this, though, and unfortunately diversity in meta is also important for the communities who have metas. I use streak + dark conversion on my stamina sorcerer because I want to, for instance. I use bound aegis instead of bound armaments too. You have more options than I think you realize.

OutlawShadow wrote: »

Next, I absolutely agree that the dynamic resource cost isn't the way to go. I believe it even more so after talking to some IRL people about it, and hearing the feedback on this post.

Essentially ignore ideas 1 and 2 from above. These were more of a supporting concept to try to convey mt desire for the ability to use more skills. I don't want to edit the post and remove them because anyone who tries to follow along could get confused, and it can sometimes look kinda shifty when people edit comments during a discussion. (Plus I'm not knowledgeable enough in the forums to do it)(wait, I think I have an idea. I think I can use strikethrough? I'll try to figure it out)

Haha I edit my comments all the time because I think of more to say, oops. I'm glad you've changed your mind though.

OutlawShadow wrote: »

To the point of less diversity, I see what you are saying. My comment on this would be it's more of a skill balancing issue. If everyone is picking option A over option B, then one of the 2 is broken, and should be fixed. Hypothetically, it would make the issue easier to see for the devs if everyone has A over B, and it would be balanced. Unfortunately, that isn't always how things go. Therefore your apprehensions and concerns there are 100% valid and agreeable.

Some morphs or even entire skills do have this problem where everyone does choose one option over another. I really believe that some skills need to be reworked to have niche uses, like how both Arcanist beam skills are useful to the point people will even change morphs depending on the trial they're going to do. With there being solo, group PvP, solo PvP, IA, dungeons, trials, roleplay, tanks, healers, and DPS, there should be some use for every skill. But some are just horribly lacking, like bursting vines, lotus flower, living vines, summoner's armor, runeblades, tentacular dread, consuming darkness, imbue weapon, mend spirit...

OutlawShadow wrote: »

Now, what about point 3 above? Specifically the part where you can choose what resource your heavy attacks refund. That would, hypothetically, not alter the balance as much. You wouldn't get more damage on your off resource skills, but you could sustain them. This would make them less effective, and still give some flexibility with your build. This is the option that is getting the most positive feedback, and the one I actually prefer. It boils down to you not being forced to use a weapon type just to sustain everything. As it is, people already do this by throwing a bow or staff on their back bar. This just gives more freedom with weapon selection and overall playstyle concept. THIS is what I am really asking and aiming for.

I hope this makes more sense, and I am open to, and welcome, more feedback and criticism.

You can resolve your sustain in more issues than heavy attacking. I hate heavy attacking and only do it as a last resort. There's sustain CP, sustain food/drink, switching some skills to an off-resource costing morph, applying magickasteal, enchantments, armor weights, sustain skills (such as netch), potions...

Amottica

OutlawShadow wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

ESO's play how you want refers to there being content for everyone and many ways to build, not that every way of building works. Arcanist's highest/lowest resource changing the cost mechanic makes magarc "stamarc but worse", leaving there with absolutely no reason to even play magarc. And that's coming from someone who encourages off-meta builds if someone wants to use an off-meta build. Having every skill be like that would ruin class diversity even further. I think instead, there needs to be viable stam and viable mag morphs of every skill.

I agree with two points made here.

1. Playing as you want means we can wear whatever armor weight and equip our weapons of choice.

2. Making it so we can customize every minute spec of a build would have unintended consequences, which, in this case, is likely to significantly increase the load on the server. Let us not forget that hybridization changes have also done more to homogenize the game and reduce class diversity, which is an aspect @Soarora notes would likely happen with the suggestion being made.

1) But you cannot equip your weapon of choice. If you want to use Mag you MUST equip a staff, and to use STAM you MUST equip melee or bow. If you want to use a mix, you MUST equip both.

In the post they say some builds will be less effective. Being pure melee mag isn't just less effective, its ineffective. There are plenty of skills that don't even have alternate resource morphs.

2a) This isn't a minute part of your build. It is being able to afford the spells you want to use. A fallacy.
2b) Every change has unintended consequences, so that's a moot point. A fallacy.
2c) Unless you are intimately familiar with the server architecture, this is absolute speculation. A fallacy.
Fallacies are not an argument. They are a lack of one.

We can equip any weapon we choose regardless of our build. However, with some choices, there are tradeoffs, which is why the devs' comment in the thread that you linked states, "Some combinations of these tools are more effective than others."


In other words, it is intended that such choices will not work as well as other choices. The devs say as much.

2a - answered by the devs that no all combinations would be optimal.
2b - The game's history proves this is a fact, not a fallacy. The devs eliminated magic crit from Daggers in the first year. Players started using bows in magic builds for an increase in damage it provided at the time. Devs quickly had to change the related passive. There are a number of skills that have been changed over the years only to have them changed again within months due to performance that was not intended. Yea, not a fallacy
2c - Since the server would have to track our choices for what resource a skill used, it would obviously add to the server load.
We know this because the server load was increased when Zenimax moved, keeping track of our resources to the server instead of the client. This would have the same effect. Again, not a fallacy

Knowledge of the server architecture is not required. Just knowledge of the game and it's history.

Major_Toughness

OutlawShadow wrote: »

Major_Toughness wrote: »

The weaponization of the "Play how you want" mantra to complain about literally every aspect on the game because you can't make one specific niche build to run in overland content, that dies in one shot anyway, needs to stop.

Play how you want doesn't mean you get unlimited customisations.

It means you can play any class you want, in any role you want, and clear the games content.

You can play melee Sorc and have max Magicka and use all the class skills because they cost magicka. You do not need to play stamina or have stamina morphs to play dual wield. Haven't since the beginning of the game.

If your resource management sucks, fix that rather than trying to change heavy attacks or every skill in the game.

I don't understand your hostility. I'm not following some "mantra" but merely commenting on something the developers say. Its literally the first section in this forum post.
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/624269/eso-developer-deep-dive-core-combat-values/p1

My post was merely an ask. I'm not saying this is how the game has to be. As I said, I like the game, I'd just like it more with more options. I'm sure the amazing dev team can think of a way (probably better) to implement this. This was just a way to convey what I (and at least some of the community) would like.

I would like to counter your comment of "X ... Needs to stop," with, "Elitist who think their way of playing is the right way because they don't want to have to watch tutorials and build guides over again when something changes because they have to be meta and are unable to do things for themselves, and if even the devs make a change against them then the devs are wrong, and also don't want anyone else to have fun, even though it wouldn't effect them," needs to stop (sentence structure intentional). Me having fun questing and running around the map isn't going to diminish your oh-so-amazing in-game achievements (sarcasm aside, some of them are actually impressive and I am sometimes jealous I don't have the time to try these things. Seriously, I could probably name a good equipment set and you could probably tell me off the top of your head where to find it. Genuinely impressive). I barely have time to play, let alone research sets and skills and rotations and possible "build" interactions to see how to "fix my resource management." (By play I mean basic game content. I have never done trials, or VET dungeons, or non-zerg PvP.)

Bottom line, let people have fun. If you are as good of a player as you think you are, you can adapt and thrive in any patch. I believe in you.

Toxic casual alert.

Can you do all the content you wish to do, on the class you wish to do it on?

I know the answer is yes, therefore "Play How You Want" is already working.

I have never understood the mentality of "I don't want to look at guides, read about skills or sets, or ask for help. But I will log on the forums and propose a drastic combat change."

Also trials are super fun and you can do normal trials with group finder literally by holding down left-click on a heavy attack build. You should give it a go, you are missing out on some really cool stuff.

Oh sorry you don't know what a heavy attack build is, you don't have time to do research.

OutlawShadow

Amottica wrote: »

OutlawShadow wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

ESO's play how you want refers to there being content for everyone and many ways to build, not that every way of building works. Arcanist's highest/lowest resource changing the cost mechanic makes magarc "stamarc but worse", leaving there with absolutely no reason to even play magarc. And that's coming from someone who encourages off-meta builds if someone wants to use an off-meta build. Having every skill be like that would ruin class diversity even further. I think instead, there needs to be viable stam and viable mag morphs of every skill.

I agree with two points made here.

1. Playing as you want means we can wear whatever armor weight and equip our weapons of choice.

2. Making it so we can customize every minute spec of a build would have unintended consequences, which, in this case, is likely to significantly increase the load on the server. Let us not forget that hybridization changes have also done more to homogenize the game and reduce class diversity, which is an aspect @Soarora notes would likely happen with the suggestion being made.

1) But you cannot equip your weapon of choice. If you want to use Mag you MUST equip a staff, and to use STAM you MUST equip melee or bow. If you want to use a mix, you MUST equip both.

In the post they say some builds will be less effective. Being pure melee mag isn't just less effective, its ineffective. There are plenty of skills that don't even have alternate resource morphs.

2a) This isn't a minute part of your build. It is being able to afford the spells you want to use. A fallacy.
2b) Every change has unintended consequences, so that's a moot point. A fallacy.
2c) Unless you are intimately familiar with the server architecture, this is absolute speculation. A fallacy.
Fallacies are not an argument. They are a lack of one.

We can equip any weapon we choose regardless of our build. However, with some choices, there are tradeoffs, which is why the devs' comment in the thread that you linked states, "Some combinations of these tools are more effective than others."


In other words, it is intended that such choices will not work as well as other choices. The devs say as much.

2a - answered by the devs that no all combinations would be optimal.
2b - The game's history proves this is a fact, not a fallacy. The devs eliminated magic crit from Daggers in the first year. Players started using bows in magic builds for an increase in damage it provided at the time. Devs quickly had to change the related passive. There are a number of skills that have been changed over the years only to have them changed again within months due to performance that was not intended. Yea, not a fallacy
2c - Since the server would have to track our choices for what resource a skill used, it would obviously add to the server load.
We know this because the server load was increased when Zenimax moved, keeping track of our resources to the server instead of the client. This would have the same effect. Again, not a fallacy

Knowledge of the server architecture is not required. Just knowledge of the game and it's history.

Now THESE are discussion points I can work with. Your points, as written previously, were all fallacies. You may have known the details, so to you they weren't fallacies. However, I do not have access to the information in your head, and may not have had access to the information you were thinking of. By providing examples you take the reader from, "Trust me, bro. It's how I feel," to a more founded point of view (why does this sentence sound wrong to me).

Also, good morning! I hope you are having a good day. (It's not really morning, but I just woke up)

2a) Was referring to, "Making it so we can customize every minute spec of a build." I was not arguing for ultimate control, and is an over exaggeration of what I was asking for.

New 2a) I feel there is a fundamental flaw in the wording by the devs that is causing all of our disconnects on this topic. The flaw is that "more effective than others" is a very subjective term. Some choices work better than others, but some choices would absolutely not work at all. Factors that can play into this are more than just the mechanics of the game. Individual skill level, general game experience and knowledge, and time available to dedicate to the game can all play a role in what is and isn't effective. I think that we just have different definitions of what is effective, and what would be ineffective all-together, and that's cool. I respect your opinion.

2b) Now here is where I have a strong opinion. You are arguing against changing things because they made bad changes in the past, and you give some examples.

So, my question to you is this. In the 10 years ESO has been around, have the ESO devs ever made a change to the game that was positive or didn't get reverted? If the answer is yes, then this argument is still a fallacy. You are focusing on some bad changes and using it as an argument that all changes are bad and will be bad.

2c) This is now not a fallacy, but is still questionable. When they moved the resource tracking to the server it was no surprise that the load increased. The server had to start doing tons of new calculations and work. Now, however, the server is already tracking the resource cost of skills, what skills you are using, and what resources you have. If the server is already doing that math, how will doing the same math hurt server performance? This again leads to my statement that if you aren't intimately familiar with the server's architecture you cannot comment on it. All we are doing is speculating. Speculating is not helpful.

Knowledge of the game and its history IS useful, but becomes a fallacy when you pick only the negative things that seem to reinforce your point.

Soarora wrote: »

OutlawShadow wrote: »

1) But you cannot equip your weapon of choice. If you want to use Mag you MUST equip a staff, and to use STAM you MUST equip melee or bow. If you want to use a mix, you MUST equip both.

In the post they say some builds will be less effective. Being pure melee mag isn't just less effective, its ineffective. There are plenty of skills that don't even have alternate resource morphs.

Pure melee mag is effective, and absolutely you do not need to use a staff to be a mag character. Before arcanist and even now in some ways, magicka dragonknight was the top DPS in the game. Magicka dragonknight is melee and uses daggers on frontbar and a greatsword backbar. This same thought process goes for other classes as well:
Dragonknight is melee because their class spammable--whip--is melee, so you might as well use daggers because they have the best stats.
Templar is the same, they're melee because their class spammable--jabs--is melee, so you also might as well use daggers (unless you're doing ranged templar because of how strong beam is but that's a newer thing).
Arcanist is ranged but often played in melee range (same with any other build, melee range is good for skills that are aoes around you, in group content it's good so healers can effectively buff you, in solo content you are in melee range because the enemies will chase you anyways...) and also uses daggers because of Velothi Amulet, it's fine to just hit air.
Magicka nightblade is also melee, so you are also best off using daggers.
This is just speaking on meta, of course, you can use any weapon you want. But point is, the best mag builds for several classes actually are melee without staves. The only class you actually need to use a staff on is magicka warden because winters revenge requires a staff to get the most damage out of it, plus a lot of magicka warden damage comes from frost reach.
I'm not sure if your argument is based on not knowing about hybridization or sustain, but any morph and any weapon scales the same regardless on if you're mag or stam. Sustain-wise, well, just pick some morphs of the opposite cost from your main pool. Also, make sure you're using a food that is max main resource + recovery at least. You should not need to regularly heavy attack for resources most of the time.

OutlawShadow wrote: »

Second, my use of best, when saying that a mag or stam skill is best, was the wrong choice of words. It was more implied as in what you like best, and not in a meta best kind of way.

You can already do this, though, and unfortunately diversity in meta is also important for the communities who have metas. I use streak + dark conversion on my stamina sorcerer because I want to, for instance. I use bound aegis instead of bound armaments too. You have more options than I think you realize.

OutlawShadow wrote: »

Next, I absolutely agree that the dynamic resource cost isn't the way to go. I believe it even more so after talking to some IRL people about it, and hearing the feedback on this post.

Essentially ignore ideas 1 and 2 from above. These were more of a supporting concept to try to convey mt desire for the ability to use more skills. I don't want to edit the post and remove them because anyone who tries to follow along could get confused, and it can sometimes look kinda shifty when people edit comments during a discussion. (Plus I'm not knowledgeable enough in the forums to do it)(wait, I think I have an idea. I think I can use strikethrough? I'll try to figure it out)

Haha I edit my comments all the time because I think of more to say, oops. I'm glad you've changed your mind though.

OutlawShadow wrote: »

To the point of less diversity, I see what you are saying. My comment on this would be it's more of a skill balancing issue. If everyone is picking option A over option B, then one of the 2 is broken, and should be fixed. Hypothetically, it would make the issue easier to see for the devs if everyone has A over B, and it would be balanced. Unfortunately, that isn't always how things go. Therefore your apprehensions and concerns there are 100% valid and agreeable.

Some morphs or even entire skills do have this problem where everyone does choose one option over another. I really believe that some skills need to be reworked to have niche uses, like how both Arcanist beam skills are useful to the point people will even change morphs depending on the trial they're going to do. With there being solo, group PvP, solo PvP, IA, dungeons, trials, roleplay, tanks, healers, and DPS, there should be some use for every skill. But some are just horribly lacking, like bursting vines, lotus flower, living vines, summoner's armor, runeblades, tentacular dread, consuming darkness, imbue weapon, mend spirit...

OutlawShadow wrote: »

Now, what about point 3 above? Specifically the part where you can choose what resource your heavy attacks refund. That would, hypothetically, not alter the balance as much. You wouldn't get more damage on your off resource skills, but you could sustain them. This would make them less effective, and still give some flexibility with your build. This is the option that is getting the most positive feedback, and the one I actually prefer. It boils down to you not being forced to use a weapon type just to sustain everything. As it is, people already do this by throwing a bow or staff on their back bar. This just gives more freedom with weapon selection and overall playstyle concept. THIS is what I am really asking and aiming for.

I hope this makes more sense, and I am open to, and welcome, more feedback and criticism.

You can resolve your sustain in more issues than heavy attacking. I hate heavy attacking and only do it as a last resort. There's sustain CP, sustain food/drink, switching some skills to an off-resource costing morph, applying magickasteal, enchantments, armor weights, sustain skills (such as netch), potions...

Soarora, my fiend, you make some sound arguments. I freely admit that I am lower on the experience scale, and that colors my opinion. I will take your recommendations to heart and see what I can come up with. In the mean time, I will mentally file this away under neat, but unimportant, things I might like to see sometime, someday, in an unbroken way. Like I said, I do like the game as it is, and have fun playing when I can.

Amottica

OutlawShadow wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

OutlawShadow wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

ESO's play how you want refers to there being content for everyone and many ways to build, not that every way of building works. Arcanist's highest/lowest resource changing the cost mechanic makes magarc "stamarc but worse", leaving there with absolutely no reason to even play magarc. And that's coming from someone who encourages off-meta builds if someone wants to use an off-meta build. Having every skill be like that would ruin class diversity even further. I think instead, there needs to be viable stam and viable mag morphs of every skill.

I agree with two points made here.

1. Playing as you want means we can wear whatever armor weight and equip our weapons of choice.

2. Making it so we can customize every minute spec of a build would have unintended consequences, which, in this case, is likely to significantly increase the load on the server. Let us not forget that hybridization changes have also done more to homogenize the game and reduce class diversity, which is an aspect @Soarora notes would likely happen with the suggestion being made.

1) But you cannot equip your weapon of choice. If you want to use Mag you MUST equip a staff, and to use STAM you MUST equip melee or bow. If you want to use a mix, you MUST equip both.

In the post they say some builds will be less effective. Being pure melee mag isn't just less effective, its ineffective. There are plenty of skills that don't even have alternate resource morphs.

2a) This isn't a minute part of your build. It is being able to afford the spells you want to use. A fallacy.
2b) Every change has unintended consequences, so that's a moot point. A fallacy.
2c) Unless you are intimately familiar with the server architecture, this is absolute speculation. A fallacy.
Fallacies are not an argument. They are a lack of one.

We can equip any weapon we choose regardless of our build. However, with some choices, there are tradeoffs, which is why the devs' comment in the thread that you linked states, "Some combinations of these tools are more effective than others."


In other words, it is intended that such choices will not work as well as other choices. The devs say as much.

2a - answered by the devs that no all combinations would be optimal.
2b - The game's history proves this is a fact, not a fallacy. The devs eliminated magic crit from Daggers in the first year. Players started using bows in magic builds for an increase in damage it provided at the time. Devs quickly had to change the related passive. There are a number of skills that have been changed over the years only to have them changed again within months due to performance that was not intended. Yea, not a fallacy
2c - Since the server would have to track our choices for what resource a skill used, it would obviously add to the server load.
We know this because the server load was increased when Zenimax moved, keeping track of our resources to the server instead of the client. This would have the same effect. Again, not a fallacy

Knowledge of the server architecture is not required. Just knowledge of the game and it's history.

Now THESE are discussion points I can work with. Your points, as written previously, were all fallacies. You may have known the details, so to you they weren't fallacies. However, I do not have access to the information in your head, and may not have had access to the information you were thinking of. By providing examples you take the reader from, "Trust me, bro. It's how I feel," to a more founded point of view (why does this sentence sound wrong to me).

Also, good morning! I hope you are having a good day. (It's not really morning, but I just woke up)

2a) Was referring to, "Making it so we can customize every minute spec of a build." I was not arguing for ultimate control, and is an over exaggeration of what I was asking for.

New 2a) I feel there is a fundamental flaw in the wording by the devs that is causing all of our disconnects on this topic. The flaw is that "more effective than others" is a very subjective term. Some choices work better than others, but some choices would absolutely not work at all. Factors that can play into this are more than just the mechanics of the game. Individual skill level, general game experience and knowledge, and time available to dedicate to the game can all play a role in what is and isn't effective. I think that we just have different definitions of what is effective, and what would be ineffective all-together, and that's cool. I respect your opinion.

It is irrelevant whether the suggestion is for ultimate control or not. The argument posed in the OP is that the current design, or the lack of the suggestion of being a part of the game, is "not very "Play Your Way." The developers have said the game is to play as you want, but that does not mean every choice is as effective as others. As such, the foundation for the argument concerning the suggestion is based on an opinion that does not align with the developers of the game and the majority of respondents here.

As far as "all of our disconnects on the topic," most of us do not have a disconnect from the play-as-you-want as defined and designed by the developers. Most of us understand that some choices improve and others weaken a build. That is life.

Thank you for providing such a suggestion and for responding to the feedback. It seems we are running around in circles and have noted our thoughts on the matter ad nauseam. Good luck with your suggestion.