Hardened Ward... Where player based skill can go from C-tier to S+-tier

Bushido2513

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Not sure how having an opinion on something that is different from yours is clearly intellectual dishonesty. I also said it was situational which you left out.

It's dishonest because you know damn well you're taking the gun 99.9999999999% of the time, yeah sure you can come up with an unlikely contrived scenario where the knife is better, life or death you're picking the gun and so am I.

That's you just projecting your views on me and saying this makes sense so I know you'd do it too.

At that point you're making a lot of assumptions about my motivations and how I go about things which still doesn't prove that I'm dishonest but more that you think I am when comparing your limited information about me to your decision making matrix.

Not saying I wouldn't choose the gun but that I would evaluate the pros and cons for each scenario. So maybe I pick the gun 10 out of 10 times. It would be because I decided to I'm each scenario and not because I prejudged the gun to always be the better option. Again a thought process/preference and nothing to do with being dishonest.

xylena_lazarow

Bushido2513 wrote: »

It would be because I decided to I'm each scenario and not because I prejudged the gun to always be the better option

Here's that same intellectual dishonesty yet again. We already know that you're capable of indefinitely coming up with contrived edge cases, it's akin to the logic used by people who think lottery tickets are an investment.

Jsmalls wrote: »

the number of times I've been streak and executed by a follow up ability from Sorc in PvP extremely low

On a MagSorc with back bar SnB you better not be dying. Ever lol. Your surviving other Sorcs demonstrates a good thing though, MagSorc should have to use some skill and take some risk to close out kills.

Bushido2513

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

It would be because I decided to I'm each scenario and not because I prejudged the gun to always be the better option

Here's that same intellectual dishonesty yet again. We already know that you're capable of indefinitely coming up with contrived edge cases, it's akin to the logic used by people who think lottery tickets are an investment.

Jsmalls wrote: »

the number of times I've been streak and executed by a follow up ability from Sorc in PvP extremely low

On a MagSorc with back bar SnB you better not be dying. Ever lol. Your surviving other Sorcs demonstrates a good thing though, MagSorc should have to use some skill and take some risk to close out kills.

I'm just very particular about the details of the question and the context.

I try not to assume the full depth of your question so if you leave out details you'll possibly get an answer that's not as specific as you might like. I'd rather add more detail and remove as needed then remove detail and get boxed into simplistic arguments.

So is a gun better than a knife? Depends on scenario.

Out of common scenarios is a gun better than a knife. I'd ask you to define common scenarios.

Would I take the knife or the gun. Depends on the answers to the first two questions and possibly more.

We never even discussed the gun. Is it a musket, a Glock, a n fn 5.7? I mean if it's a 5.7 I might just take it on principal.

Point being perhaps you're exactly right about what I might choose but I'd still want more info before making a choice. I would also want to see if what you're suggesting in scenarios lines up with the comparison we were making at the time.

DrNukenstein

What if the answer isn't to nerf healing ward, but buff the usability of warding soul?

A shield with a moderate burst heal isn't that out of line when compared to the same sized shield that also gives a burst of resource return.

divnyi

DrNukenstein wrote: »

What if the answer isn't to nerf healing ward, but buff the usability of warding soul?

A shield with a moderate burst heal isn't that out of line when compared to the same sized shield that also gives a burst of resource return.

Isn't it untargeted and can end up on ally without you being able to change that?

Besides, making everything even more tankier shouldn't be the goal, things are ridiculously hard to kill already.

xylena_lazarow

Bushido2513 wrote: »

I'd still want more info before making a choice

The real world isn't a computer program. A bartender doesn't need to worry about what happens if a customer tries to order negative three beers. Can't imagine that modern soldiers with guns are too worried about knife fights.

DrNukenstein wrote: »

What if the answer isn't to nerf healing ward, but buff the usability of warding soul?

Only MagSorc can stack max mag efficiently, but if the sentiment is that everyone should have Hardened Ward, then let's get rid of classes altogether! Make it like older TES games. Your ESO class is now just the color of your spells.

Bushido2513

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

I'd still want more info before making a choice

The real world isn't a computer program. A bartender doesn't need to worry about what happens if a customer tries to order negative three beers. Can't imagine that modern soldiers with guns are too worried about knife fights.

DrNukenstein wrote: »

What if the answer isn't to nerf healing ward, but buff the usability of warding soul?

Only MagSorc can stack max mag efficiently, but if the sentiment is that everyone should have Hardened Ward, then let's get rid of classes altogether! Make it like older TES games. Your ESO class is now just the color of your spells.

Actually even the smallest amount of research shows that the combat knife is really now used more for utility than combat. Note that I've never said anything to the contrary just that there could be situations where the knife is the better choice.

More importantly though it was determined that the knife and gun analogy doesn't accurately apply here when you factor in what melee characters can actually do in ESO.

If you ask me if I think melee is at a clear disadvantage to range I'd have to say it's really going to depend on a few factors in the fight but that overall I believe that all classes when built and played correctly can stand up to a ranged sorc.

Note I'm not saying win the fight every time but more so hold their own with a combination of defense and offense.

xylena_lazarow

Bushido2513 wrote: »

More importantly though it was determined that the knife and gun analogy doesn't accurately apply here when you factor in what melee characters can actually do in ESO.

You mean what melee should be able to do. In a video game. Fantasy. To balance the fantasy combat.

If your MagSorc is getting wrecked by melee opponents, you have severe piloting issues.

kurbbie_s

Bushido2513 wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Not sure how having an opinion on something that is different from yours is clearly intellectual dishonesty. I also said it was situational which you left out.

It's dishonest because you know damn well you're taking the gun 99.9999999999% of the time, yeah sure you can come up with an unlikely contrived scenario where the knife is better, life or death you're picking the gun and so am I.

That's you just projecting your views on me and saying this makes sense so I know you'd do it too.

At that point you're making a lot of assumptions about my motivations and how I go about things which still doesn't prove that I'm dishonest but more that you think I am when comparing your limited information about me to your decision making matrix.

Not saying I wouldn't choose the gun but that I would evaluate the pros and cons for each scenario. So maybe I pick the gun 10 out of 10 times. It would be because I decided to I'm each scenario and not because I prejudged the gun to always be the better option. Again a thought process/preference and nothing to do with being dishonest.

you agreed with word salad.

kurbbie_s

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

More importantly though it was determined that the knife and gun analogy doesn't accurately apply here when you factor in what melee characters can actually do in ESO.

You mean what melee should be able to do. In a video game. Fantasy. To balance the fantasy combat.

If your MagSorc is getting wrecked by melee opponents, you have severe piloting issues.

if you need to be invisible to start a fight then you have no say in any debate

kurbbie_s

DrNukenstein wrote: »

What if the answer isn't to nerf healing ward, but buff the usability of warding soul?

A shield with a moderate burst heal isn't that out of line when compared to the same sized shield that also gives a burst of resource return.

divnyi wrote: »

DrNukenstein wrote: »

What if the answer isn't to nerf healing ward, but buff the usability of warding soul?

A shield with a moderate burst heal isn't that out of line when compared to the same sized shield that also gives a burst of resource return.

Isn't it untargeted and can end up on ally without you being able to change that?

Besides, making everything even more tankier shouldn't be the goal, things are ridiculously hard to kill already.

20 people pounding on 1 guy in an open area shouldnt be happening. People keep saying skill this skill that. But is it really skill when they arent LOSing' and can some how eat all the damage from 20 people? On my main, my 3 skill burst hits normally for about 65-70k.

So lets just say that 5 of us 20 got our burst off and its all around the same. How is one guy able to tank and heal through 350k damage? They arent, the procs and skill buffs to certain classes are the problem.

PVP now is, you find someone you stalemate and walk away or fight for 20 minutes with no winner. How is that fun? Skillful? i know this because I do the same thing. You can claim skill all you want, but the rest of us its 10% player skill and the rest is the game doing it for you.

StaticWave

I just find it absolutely hilarious that a magsorc in Rallying Cry/Wretched/DDF can get these stats in CP campaign:



- 28k HP
- 57k mag
- 22k stam
- 2k mag recovery
- 1.9k stam recovery
- 4.9k spell damage
- 40% crit chance
- 5k+ base pen (I didn’t include CP pen)


Sure this build could achieve more damage but you arent killing a magsorc in this setup unless you zerg em down lmao. Imagine getting 57k mag in Rally Wretched 🤣 Absolutely disgusting.

xylena_lazarow

kurbbie_s wrote: »

if you need to be invisible to start a fight then you have no say in any debate

Need? No. Want? Yes. Must be pretty tilting for a MagSorc to be ganked by a 42k hp Warden.

Bushido2513

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

More importantly though it was determined that the knife and gun analogy doesn't accurately apply here when you factor in what melee characters can actually do in ESO.

You mean what melee should be able to do. In a video game. Fantasy. To balance the fantasy combat.

If your MagSorc is getting wrecked by melee opponents, you have severe piloting issues.

I'm more so speaking of if I decide to stay in the fight with a particularly good opponent or set of opponents. Yes I can try to range them and yes if I really want to get away I can but if I'm trying to do damage I'm going to have to make myself vulnerable to some degree.

Or let's look at it from the other side when I face a sorc. Some are better at the toolkit for sure but I also know how to stay on top of them and get my damage window out there. If they survive or kill me then that's just the game but I personally don't feel at a disadvantage regardless of playing melee or range.

Bushido2513

kurbbie_s wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Not sure how having an opinion on something that is different from yours is clearly intellectual dishonesty. I also said it was situational which you left out.

It's dishonest because you know damn well you're taking the gun 99.9999999999% of the time, yeah sure you can come up with an unlikely contrived scenario where the knife is better, life or death you're picking the gun and so am I.

That's you just projecting your views on me and saying this makes sense so I know you'd do it too.

At that point you're making a lot of assumptions about my motivations and how I go about things which still doesn't prove that I'm dishonest but more that you think I am when comparing your limited information about me to your decision making matrix.

Not saying I wouldn't choose the gun but that I would evaluate the pros and cons for each scenario. So maybe I pick the gun 10 out of 10 times. It would be because I decided to I'm each scenario and not because I prejudged the gun to always be the better option. Again a thought process/preference and nothing to do with being dishonest.

you agreed with word salad.

Well there's truth in some of what that person is saying so I'm not going to dismiss that in my response though I wouldn't say that means I agree in full.

xylena_lazarow

kurbbie_s wrote: »

On my main, my 3 skill burst hits normally for about 65-70k

CMX of this?

Bushido2513

StaticWave wrote: »

I just find it absolutely hilarious that a magsorc in Rallying Cry/Wretched/DDF can get these stats in CP campaign:



- 28k HP
- 57k mag
- 22k stam
- 2k mag recovery
- 1.9k stam recovery
- 4.9k spell damage
- 40% crit chance
- 5k+ base pen (I didn’t include CP pen)


Sure this build could achieve more damage but you arent killing a magsorc in this setup unless you zerg em down lmao. Imagine getting 57k mag in Rally Wretched 🤣 Absolutely disgusting.

I remember when I used to read stats and think wow that will my interesting to play. For some reason now I'm just like meh, still won't be able to kill anymore that doesn't want to die

xylena_lazarow

Bushido2513 wrote: »

I remember when I used to read stats and think wow that will my interesting to play. For some reason now I'm just like meh, still won't be able to kill anymore that doesn't want to die

So you gave up on trying to understand game mechanics? The meta is tanky but there are ways.

Araneae6537

I was surprised sorc got a class burst heal, especially when scribing provides options additional options for heals. What I wanted to see is removing the cast time from Dark Deal so it would be better for PVE tanking and making Storm skills viable DPS. I should use now while we have it but I’m afraid then I’ll miss it when it’s gone/nerfed!

StaticWave

Bushido2513 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

I just find it absolutely hilarious that a magsorc in Rallying Cry/Wretched/DDF can get these stats in CP campaign:



- 28k HP
- 57k mag
- 22k stam
- 2k mag recovery
- 1.9k stam recovery
- 4.9k spell damage
- 40% crit chance
- 5k+ base pen (I didn’t include CP pen)


Sure this build could achieve more damage but you arent killing a magsorc in this setup unless you zerg em down lmao. Imagine getting 57k mag in Rally Wretched 🤣 Absolutely disgusting.

I remember when I used to read stats and think wow that will my interesting to play. For some reason now I'm just like meh, still won't be able to kill anymore that doesn't want to die

Literally irrelevant lol. Anybody can survive if they build tanky. Not everyone can survive in a full damage build.

Bushido2513

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

I remember when I used to read stats and think wow that will my interesting to play. For some reason now I'm just like meh, still won't be able to kill anymore that doesn't want to die

So you gave up on trying to understand game mechanics? The meta is tanky but there are ways.

We are at the point of a high chance of possible diminishing returns when you fight someone these.days. There's a difference between getting better at the game and just understanding that the game is working against you to make everyone more survivable with little investment.

Not to say that you can't kill anyone, you can, but it's usually more about their weakness vs your skill and build with amazing stats

Bushido2513

StaticWave wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

I just find it absolutely hilarious that a magsorc in Rallying Cry/Wretched/DDF can get these stats in CP campaign:



- 28k HP
- 57k mag
- 22k stam
- 2k mag recovery
- 1.9k stam recovery
- 4.9k spell damage
- 40% crit chance
- 5k+ base pen (I didn’t include CP pen)


Sure this build could achieve more damage but you arent killing a magsorc in this setup unless you zerg em down lmao. Imagine getting 57k mag in Rally Wretched 🤣 Absolutely disgusting.

I remember when I used to read stats and think wow that will my interesting to play. For some reason now I'm just like meh, still won't be able to kill anymore that doesn't want to die

Literally irrelevant lol. Anybody can survive if they build tanky. Not everyone can survive in a full damage build.

But if people just build tanky what does it really matter if you have damage and survivability?

Or one better, what does it matter if you survive on your own but someone else builds into damage and just catches direct or indirect heals?

SandandStars

Hardened has stamsorc overperforming

Magsorc’s ranged kit still gets dodge rolled enough that it’s just s-tier with dk, temp, warden

Nb remains spoiled rotten

StaticWave

Bushido2513 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

I just find it absolutely hilarious that a magsorc in Rallying Cry/Wretched/DDF can get these stats in CP campaign:



- 28k HP
- 57k mag
- 22k stam
- 2k mag recovery
- 1.9k stam recovery
- 4.9k spell damage
- 40% crit chance
- 5k+ base pen (I didn’t include CP pen)


Sure this build could achieve more damage but you arent killing a magsorc in this setup unless you zerg em down lmao. Imagine getting 57k mag in Rally Wretched 🤣 Absolutely disgusting.

I remember when I used to read stats and think wow that will my interesting to play. For some reason now I'm just like meh, still won't be able to kill anymore that doesn't want to die

Literally irrelevant lol. Anybody can survive if they build tanky. Not everyone can survive in a full damage build.

But if people just build tanky what does it really matter if you have damage and survivability?

Or one better, what does it matter if you survive on your own but someone else builds into damage and just catches direct or indirect heals?

I mean it does matter…

1 on 1, both of them can’t kill each other, but the guy with damage has a better shot.

A dude in full tank gear can tank 10+ ppl but he ain’t a threat to anybody. A dude that can tank 4+ ppl and can kill is an actual threat. Scale that up and you have a 4-man group consisting of small-scalers that can take on groups 2x-3x their size. Can you say the same about a 4 man group in full tank gear doing no damage?

Not sure why this is up for debate. Seems like you’re arguing this point for the sake of arguing lol.

Bushido2513

StaticWave wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

I just find it absolutely hilarious that a magsorc in Rallying Cry/Wretched/DDF can get these stats in CP campaign:



- 28k HP
- 57k mag
- 22k stam
- 2k mag recovery
- 1.9k stam recovery
- 4.9k spell damage
- 40% crit chance
- 5k+ base pen (I didn’t include CP pen)


Sure this build could achieve more damage but you arent killing a magsorc in this setup unless you zerg em down lmao. Imagine getting 57k mag in Rally Wretched 🤣 Absolutely disgusting.

I remember when I used to read stats and think wow that will my interesting to play. For some reason now I'm just like meh, still won't be able to kill anymore that doesn't want to die

Literally irrelevant lol. Anybody can survive if they build tanky. Not everyone can survive in a full damage build.

But if people just build tanky what does it really matter if you have damage and survivability?

Or one better, what does it matter if you survive on your own but someone else builds into damage and just catches direct or indirect heals?

I mean it does matter…

1 on 1, both of them can’t kill each other, but the guy with damage has a better shot.

A dude in full tank gear can tank 10+ ppl but he ain’t a threat to anybody. A dude that can tank 4+ ppl and can kill is an actual threat. Scale that up and you have a 4-man group consisting of small-scalers that can take on groups 2x-3x their size. Can you say the same about a 4 man group in full tank gear doing no damage?

Not sure why this is up for debate. Seems like you’re arguing this point for the sake of arguing lol.

The point is that this is a tank meta and you get the choice to build for damage but in my experience even when you do yes of course you're going to get kills but sadly this game will also give you a lot of straight up stalemates because people don't like dying.

At some point if everyone can easily build not to die then you're mostly killing people that didn't build correctly or just don't have much skill. Of course now and then you get flights that are more evenly matched but there's less of that then there is gvg it xv1.

So yes for some people you need the extra damage to put them down but a lot of times it's a case where you were probably going to kill them with or without the extra damage. At least for me that's what I've observed. The extra damage just becomes convenient so that I can end the right y quicker

So I suppose these days I'm not worried about if I can't kill someone because if they really don't want to die I won't be able to kill them. Them also having damage doesn't bother me as much because I'm built for 1vx so they won't be able to kill me either.

But yeah if you're the kind of person that wants to be able to try to kill everyone that isn't a tank then yeah I could see the issue.

xylena_lazarow

Bushido2513 wrote: »

kill everyone that isn't a tank

As one should if this PvP was better balanced. You keep saying it doesn't matter, why bother, everyone is too casual now, nobody cares, etc... yet you clearly care enough to watch game film and make hundreds of posts?

Bushido2513

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

kill everyone that isn't a tank

As one should if this PvP was better balanced. You keep saying it doesn't matter, why bother, everyone is too casual now, nobody cares, etc... yet you clearly care enough to watch game film and make hundreds of posts?

Acknowledging the current situation doesn't mean that I don't care about said situation. I just address the situation with respect to what it is, what it isn't, what it could be, what it might likely be, etc.

The first step to addressing a problem is understanding what the problem is.

I think if people look at the root causes of problems with this game they'd be less inclined to attack the symptoms.

xylena_lazarow

Bushido2513 wrote: »

I think if people look at the root causes of problems with this game they'd be less inclined to attack the symptoms.

This is not a problem. Simply reporting symptoms to the devs is the most efficient course of action.

Bushido2513

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

I think if people look at the root causes of problems with this game they'd be less inclined to attack the symptoms.

This is not a problem. Simply reporting symptoms to the devs is the most efficient course of action.

If nothing else it's semi entertaining to watch.

Tcholl

Hey! I cant say anything about PvE, but the ward skill buff was terrible for PvP. With only one skill this change made a whole class of unkilable players. Please, all the non sorcs mains and even the sorcs that actually enjoy PvP are asking for a correction asap!