Ithelia fight (SPOILERS)

Arcturus

I'm sorry, but did I just take on a Daedric Prince (arguably the strongest) while it was imbued by the stolen power of Mora, kick Torvesard in the family jewels while he was stealing Mora's AND Ithelia's power, all without any help from a trinket (looking at you, amulet of kings) and win? I mean I'm flattered that I am finally given the respect I deserve (even though we're still called mortal even though we don't die) but this seems a bit much. After winning that fight I kind of felt like I was Mary Sue RP wise.

About her banishment... since when do powerless realities exist? There is no such thing as existence without magic. Existence by itself in this game's universe is already a magical paradox, and it is never implied that another path or reality is itself a different universe, just a mirror reflecting your current reality but in a distorted way. Don't know the exact words but Ithelia tells this to you during dialogue.

Soarora

That is... a good point. I've already been displeased about the lore of Gold Road and this just makes it far, far worse. There is no reality without the magic of a Daedric Prince unless this is an entirely different Dream itself. Maybe she's out in a sci-fi novel shooting lasers with the Dwemer, but there is no Tamriel without magic in one way or another. Daedric Princes are astral beings; do they even rely on typical magic from Magnus? I'm not even sure it is possible to erase Magnus from existence. I guess you could argue that somehow the Godhead dreamed away Daedric Princes in some reality but I'm not even sure how you'd trigger that even if it were some other Kalpa.

Arcturus

This whole thing is a fever dream far worse than Craglorn's Questline

Can we get those wings as a cosmetic thoooo pretty pls?

ThelerisTelvanni

Arcturus wrote: »

I'm sorry, but did I just take on a Daedric Prince (arguably the strongest) while it was imbued by the stolen power of Mora, kick Torvesard in the family jewels while he was stealing Mora's AND Ithelia's power, all without any help from a trinket (looking at you, amulet of kings) and win? I mean I'm flattered that I am finally given the respect I deserve (even though we're still called mortal even though we don't die) but this seems a bit much. After winning that fight I kind of felt like I was Mary Sue RP wise.

About her banishment... since when do powerless realities exist? There is no such thing as existence without magic. Existence by itself in this game's universe is already a magical paradox, and it is never implied that another path or reality is itself a different universe, just a mirror reflecting your current reality but in a distorted way. Don't know the exact words but Ithelia tells this to you during dialogue.

Yeah this was kind of strange to me as well. Not only the absure power scaling between us and the deadric princes, but also that whole realety thing. Since it was aproved by Bethesda lore masters I expected something that had been a bit more rooted in existing lore. Or at least less contradicting.

As for where she went: My guess back to the US where she came from. She somewhat did not have the looks or feel of a The Elder Scrolls universe character. She felt realy out of place to me.

Salreth

On the topic of contradictions and absurd power scaling. I feel like there is a glaring gap in the "ending" we see here. It's established that Ithelia exists in other paths (her reflections) and that she can traverse to other paths like she does at the end. She does that with the help of mora.

If there is a path where Ithelia absorbed mora's power then what is stopping that Ithelia from invading the paths where she didn't and absorbing more of his power there?

I love that they played around with this whole multiverse aspect and revealed both the strongest and weakest daedric prince in the process. However, this is exactly the problem I have with the multiverse trope it's so hard to get right and wrap up correctly. On a side note I'd love to see an Ithelia cameo in fallout or something, that would be pretty funny.

Necrotech_Master

Arcturus wrote: »

I'm sorry, but did I just take on a Daedric Prince (arguably the strongest) while it was imbued by the stolen power of Mora, kick Torvesard in the family jewels while he was stealing Mora's AND Ithelia's power, all without any help from a trinket (looking at you, amulet of kings) and win? I mean I'm flattered that I am finally given the respect I deserve (even though we're still called mortal even though we don't die) but this seems a bit much. After winning that fight I kind of felt like I was Mary Sue RP wise.

About her banishment... since when do powerless realities exist? There is no such thing as existence without magic. Existence by itself in this game's universe is already a magical paradox, and it is never implied that another path or reality is itself a different universe, just a mirror reflecting your current reality but in a distorted way. Don't know the exact words but Ithelia tells this to you during dialogue.

technically speaking, the realm of deadlight is effectively a powerless reality as the lore says that it appears to be completely void of any kind of energy

Soarora

Salreth wrote: »

On the topic of contradictions and absurd power scaling. I feel like there is a glaring gap in the "ending" we see here. It's established that Ithelia exists in other paths (her reflections) and that she can traverse to other paths like she does at the end. She does that with the help of mora.

If there is a path where Ithelia absorbed mora's power then what is stopping that Ithelia from invading the paths where she didn't and absorbing more of his power there?

I love that they played around with this whole multiverse aspect and revealed both the strongest and weakest daedric prince in the process. However, this is exactly the problem I have with the multiverse trope it's so hard to get right and wrap up correctly. On a side note I'd love to see an Ithelia cameo in fallout or something, that would be pretty funny.

Yes, there's that and also the realization I had that I'm not sure multiverses can even exist in TES. Is it not accurate that the creation of multiple realities is exactly what causes a Dragonbreak? The more I think about this Chapter the more I'm inclined to write all of it off as not a part of lore, like how I pretend Blackwood/Deadlands never happened.

Salreth

Soarora wrote: »

Salreth wrote: »

On the topic of contradictions and absurd power scaling. I feel like there is a glaring gap in the "ending" we see here. It's established that Ithelia exists in other paths (her reflections) and that she can traverse to other paths like she does at the end. She does that with the help of mora.

If there is a path where Ithelia absorbed mora's power then what is stopping that Ithelia from invading the paths where she didn't and absorbing more of his power there?

I love that they played around with this whole multiverse aspect and revealed both the strongest and weakest daedric prince in the process. However, this is exactly the problem I have with the multiverse trope it's so hard to get right and wrap up correctly. On a side note I'd love to see an Ithelia cameo in fallout or something, that would be pretty funny.

Yes, there's that and also the realization I had that I'm not sure multiverses can even exist in TES. Is it not accurate that the creation of multiple realities is exactly what causes a Dragonbreak? The more I think about this Chapter the more I'm inclined to write all of it off as not a part of lore, like how I pretend Blackwood/Deadlands never happened.

I believe Dragonbreaks are more of a description for the fracturing or merging of multiple realities at a single point. Multiverse theory was already inserted before with the Summerset DLC, Sotha Sil mentioned it a good bit when speaking of the possible ramifications of Nocturnal's Plot. I don't think it's outlandish to think that TES could support multiverses it's just difficult to cleanup when dealing with something of this magnitude occuring before other major titles.

In TES IV there was a mention of "The Unseen" which alluded to unique Daedra, with what we know now belonged to Ithelia. The fact that she is never mentioned by name though means they had to clean out her name off the books just like Vivec did with cyrodil when he achieved CHIM, thats what mora did. So from what it seems this all still fits very well within established lore. However, I don't know whether this multiverse gap was just overlooked or maybe they're leaving it open ended so that TES VI can pull from it or something.

Dalsinthus

For god's sake, the thread title "Ithelia fight" is a spoiler. The update is not even available on console for another 11 days. Please edit this.

WhiteCoatSyndrome

Salreth wrote: »

In TES IV there was a mention of "The Unseen" which alluded to unique Daedra, with what we know now belonged to Ithelia.

Where in TES IV? It’s been ages since I played.

TX12001rwb17_ESO

This confirms that the Vestige is the strongest protagonist, they could probably beat Sheogorath which means even they are the even stronger then the Champion of Cyrodiil post-Shivering Isles and he a Daedric Prince.

If you need any explanation as to how, here are some examples I could provide, Daedric Princes are ONLY All-Powerful when in their OWN realms, outside of their realm you register a higher level of power then them, even Divayth Fyr stated that he himself possessed near God-like Power, in Skyrim Clavicus Vile was not lying when he said the LDB was half as powerful as himself, is it too much to believe the Vestige, a prisoner who once got buffed from the Amulet of Kings could not surpass them?

Also Rada-Al-Saran fought a God and he was not a Prisoner or a Vampire Lord at the time (Who should I point out are drawing power from Molag Bal so they are pretty OP as well) I think the problem here is people relate a Gods sphere of Influence with their combat strength.

Half the Gods probably don't know how to swing a sword properly, you think Dibella is a trained warrior?

Soarora

TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »

This confirms that the Vestige is the strongest protagonist, they could probably beat Sheogorath which means even they are the even stronger then the Champion of Cyrodiil post-Shivering Isles and he a Daedric Prince.

If you need any explanation as to how, here are some examples I could provide, Daedric Princes are ONLY All-Powerful when in their OWN realms, outside of their realm you register a higher level of power then them, even Divayth Fyr stated that he himself possessed near God-like Power, in Skyrim Clavicus Vile was not lying when he said the LDB was half as powerful as himself, is it too much to believe the Vestige, a prisoner who once got buffed from the Amulet of Kings could not surpass them?

Also Rada-Al-Saran fought a God and he was not a Prisoner or a Vampire Lord at the time (Who should I point out are drawing power from Molag Bal so they are pretty OP as well) I think the problem here is people relate a Gods sphere of Influence with their combat strength.

Half the Gods probably don't know how to swing a sword properly, you think Dibella is a trained warrior?

Good thing the Vestige suffers from chronic amnesia and needs to be told what they're supposed to be doing and why they're there every hour. Though maybe this is a bad thing, they'd make a very strong "attack dog"...

ThelerisTelvanni

TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »

This confirms that the Vestige is the strongest protagonist, they could probably beat Sheogorath which means even they are the even stronger then the Champion of Cyrodiil post-Shivering Isles and he a Daedric Prince.

If you need any explanation as to how, here are some examples I could provide, Daedric Princes are ONLY All-Powerful when in their OWN realms, outside of their realm you register a higher level of power then them, even Divayth Fyr stated that he himself possessed near God-like Power, in Skyrim Clavicus Vile was not lying when he said the LDB was half as powerful as himself, is it too much to believe the Vestige, a prisoner who once got buffed from the Amulet of Kings could not surpass them?

Also Rada-Al-Saran fought a God and he was not a Prisoner or a Vampire Lord at the time (Who should I point out are drawing power from Molag Bal so they are pretty OP as well) I think the problem here is people relate a Gods sphere of Influence with their combat strength.

Half the Gods probably don't know how to swing a sword properly, you think Dibella is a trained warrior?

Don't you think it is strange for a deadric prince to be as easily beaten as a regular bandit? With the same skills and without some sort of power up on the players side?

In Morrowind you had powerful artifacts by the time you were fighting Dargoth Ur or Vivec and Almalexia. You had to be a certain Power level and the enemys were not leveled.

In Oblivion Martin defeated Mehrunes Dargon, Umaril (not a deadric prince but simular) was only beateble thanks to the Crusader stuff and Jyggalag needed the empowerment of Sheogorath.

Skyrim had no god like enemys you defeated. The closest was Alduin and you had Dragonborn powers as well as help form the heroes of Sovengarde. Even a vampire lord needed Auriels Bow. And Miraak needed special Dragonborn skills and you were Dragonborn yourself, so it's a more leveled playingfield.

In TESO you had the Amulet of Kings empowerment when fighting Molag Bal as far as I remember. It's been a few years. You had help by these special with deadric essence empowered kids when fighting Mehrunes Dargon as far as I recall. And unless I forget something there was noone else with godlike powers.

ArchMikem

Wasn't it implied that a Daedric Prince's power is affected by how many beings know of/believe in them? Mora was able to imprison Ithelia within her own Realm by simply erasing the knowledge of her existence from every living beings memory. I can't recall though if Mora also made Ithelia forget herself?

Anyway, wouldn't that MAYBE be an excuse to justify Ithelia's sub par power as a Daedric Prince? Because even after being released and remembered by "some" of her followers, knowledge of her existence hasn't been spread to everyone.

I know I'm just playing Devil's Advocate at this point, I fully agree that being able to easily defeat a Daedric Prince just as our little old selves is a gross misstep in writing.

Course from what little I've been spoiled to I've been thinking I DONT want to defeat Ithelia. I still need to wait till the 18th to play but what little I know of her character makes me sympathetic.

TX12001rwb17_ESO

ThelerisTelvanni wrote: »

TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »

This confirms that the Vestige is the strongest protagonist, they could probably beat Sheogorath which means even they are the even stronger then the Champion of Cyrodiil post-Shivering Isles and he a Daedric Prince.

If you need any explanation as to how, here are some examples I could provide, Daedric Princes are ONLY All-Powerful when in their OWN realms, outside of their realm you register a higher level of power then them, even Divayth Fyr stated that he himself possessed near God-like Power, in Skyrim Clavicus Vile was not lying when he said the LDB was half as powerful as himself, is it too much to believe the Vestige, a prisoner who once got buffed from the Amulet of Kings could not surpass them?

Also Rada-Al-Saran fought a God and he was not a Prisoner or a Vampire Lord at the time (Who should I point out are drawing power from Molag Bal so they are pretty OP as well) I think the problem here is people relate a Gods sphere of Influence with their combat strength.

Half the Gods probably don't know how to swing a sword properly, you think Dibella is a trained warrior?

Don't you think it is strange for a deadric prince to be as easily beaten as a regular bandit? With the same skills and without some sort of power up on the players side?

In Morrowind you had powerful artifacts by the time you were fighting Dargoth Ur or Vivec and Almalexia. You had to be a certain Power level and the enemys were not leveled.

In Oblivion Martin defeated Mehrunes Dargon, Umaril (not a deadric prince but simular) was only beateble thanks to the Crusader stuff and Jyggalag needed the empowerment of Sheogorath.

Skyrim had no god like enemys you defeated. The closest was Alduin and you had Dragonborn powers as well as help form the heroes of Sovengarde. Even a vampire lord needed Auriels Bow. And Miraak needed special Dragonborn skills and you were Dragonborn yourself, so it's a more leveled playingfield.

In TESO you had the Amulet of Kings empowerment when fighting Molag Bal as far as I remember. It's been a few years. You had help by these special with deadric essence empowered kids when fighting Mehrunes Dargon as far as I recall. And unless I forget something there was noone else with godlike powers.

If you really need an excuse for how it was possible.

When you fought Molag Bal you were empowered by the Amulet of Kings, perhaps even when the power subsided it still left a mark on them resulting in a permanent and rather substantial increase in power.

The Nerevarine can fight Vivec, Almalexia and Dagoth Ur, you can make an argument for the Tribunal not being as strong as they could due to the absence from the Heart but Dagoth Ur was very much at full-strength, sure the Heart of Lorkhan protected him from death but in raw combat strength he got overwhelmed by the Nerevarine who had no special powers whatsoever, the tools were only for destroying the enchantments placed upon the Heart.

And this is not just a case of the Prisoner being overpowered, do not forget a certain Ashen Lord once fought Leki to a draw before even becoming a Vampire Lord and he isn't a prisoner, Rada-Al-Saran has Godlike strength as well and you can defeat him.

Another thing, in TES IV Oblivion when you become Sheogorath you only have his Godly Power when in the Shivering Isles, you did not fight Ithelia in Mirrormoor, you fought her in Apocrypha, much like Champion of Cyrodiil turned Sheogorath she can likely only draw upon the power of Mirrormoor when she is in Mirrormoor, outside of it she is physically weaker then you are, Gods just are not the overpowered beings you think they are, a lot of their supposed power is just a boast that they cannot back up.

Túrin_Vidsmidr

ArchMikem wrote: »

Wasn't it implied that a Daedric Prince's power is affected by how many beings know of/believe in them?

No, that divinity by belief is just one of the six Walking Ways.
Deities such as The Tribunal, Reymon Ebonarm, The Underking, Akatosh/Auri-El/The One, The HoonDing, Talos, Mannimarco as the Necromancer's Moon, etc. may derive extra power from that and can be affected by it.
But the Daedric Princes ARE their own POWER, they are their own domains including their creations and creatures, therefore wherever they are they always have power on their own right. Even when cursed to change like Jyggalag/Sheogorath (btw that little feat took the combined powers and will of all other Daedric Princes).
So exiling Ithelia to a powerless reality - must be a dead ass Kalpa if it can exist at all - achieves nothing.

Besides completely erasing anybody or anything from reality makes no *** sense at all.
Not even a Daedric Prince can do that. For example Nocturnal's Cowl doesn't delete you from reality.
It masks you and turns your into the figure who's just perceived by everyone as The Gray Fox.
Because even if nobody or nothing else, then The Elder Scrolls themselves would still record and remember!
In fact that's how Emer Dareloth's identity has been restored in Oblivion's Thieves Guild questline.

Only the end of a Kalpa or Zero Summing can erase anybody.
But even the Dwemer - who in theory underwent that - are still remembered and their creations exist too.
The greatest problem is that completely removing a Daedric Prince, who is an incarnation of vital concepts and who is a part of Padomay, would also remove that concept from reality itself.
Imagine offing Mehrunes Dagon. It would result in the complete loss of change, destruction and ambition.
Everything and everybody would "freeze" in stasis, no reactions would work, it would mean the heat death of the universe.
With Ithelia gone the changeability of destiny, unwalked possibilities and free will are gone. Only Hermaeus Mora's determinism remains.

ThelerisTelvanni

TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »

[...]
When you fought Molag Bal you were empowered by the Amulet of Kings, perhaps even when the power subsided it still left a mark on them resulting in a permanent and rather substantial increase in power.
[...]
The Nerevarine can fight Vivec, Almalexia and Dagoth Ur, you can make an argument for the Tribunal not being as strong as they could due to the absence from the Heart but Dagoth Ur was very much at full-strength, sure the Heart of Lorkhan protected him from death but in raw combat strength he got overwhelmed by the Nerevarine who had no special powers whatsoever, the tools were only for destroying the enchantments placed upon the Heart.
[...]
Another thing, in TES IV Oblivion when you become Sheogorath you only have his Godly Power when in the Shivering Isles, you did not fight Ithelia in Mirrormoor, you fought her in Apocrypha, much like Champion of Cyrodiil turned Sheogorath she can likely only draw upon the power of Mirrormoor when she is in Mirrormoor, outside of it she is physically weaker then you are, Gods just are not the overpowered beings you think they are, a lot of their supposed power is just a boast that they cannot back up.

If we were truly permanently empowered by the Amulet of Kings that power did not show against Mehrunes Dargon or any other notable enemy.

In Morrowind the Nerevarine had the devine desese and got stronger by that, since Master Fyr of the geat house Telvanni removed the negative effects of it. The Nerevarine also had some artifacts. You got the dwemer gloves to whield the sword from Vivec as well the ring from Azura. And as correctly stated Vivec and Almalexia were in a wekend state.

Ithelia did absorbe/steal some of the power from Mora or did I misinterpret that? And Apocrypha is Moras domain. So using that power in the acording domain on top of her own. Also Mehrunes Dargon did not seem weekend in the Imperial City during TES4 Oblivion and Martin used the Amulet of Kings to turn himself into an avatar of Akatosh to beat him. So maybe the Champins of Cyrodiil did not get further empoered because he was "new at the job" and not propperly in sync with Sheogoraths power yet.

TX12001rwb17_ESO

ThelerisTelvanni wrote: »

TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »

[...]
When you fought Molag Bal you were empowered by the Amulet of Kings, perhaps even when the power subsided it still left a mark on them resulting in a permanent and rather substantial increase in power.
[...]
The Nerevarine can fight Vivec, Almalexia and Dagoth Ur, you can make an argument for the Tribunal not being as strong as they could due to the absence from the Heart but Dagoth Ur was very much at full-strength, sure the Heart of Lorkhan protected him from death but in raw combat strength he got overwhelmed by the Nerevarine who had no special powers whatsoever, the tools were only for destroying the enchantments placed upon the Heart.
[...]
Another thing, in TES IV Oblivion when you become Sheogorath you only have his Godly Power when in the Shivering Isles, you did not fight Ithelia in Mirrormoor, you fought her in Apocrypha, much like Champion of Cyrodiil turned Sheogorath she can likely only draw upon the power of Mirrormoor when she is in Mirrormoor, outside of it she is physically weaker then you are, Gods just are not the overpowered beings you think they are, a lot of their supposed power is just a boast that they cannot back up.

If we were truly permanently empowered by the Amulet of Kings that power did not show against Mehrunes Dargon or any other notable enemy.

In Morrowind the Nerevarine had the devine desese and got stronger by that, since Master Fyr of the geat house Telvanni removed the negative effects of it. The Nerevarine also had some artifacts. You got the dwemer gloves to whield the sword from Vivec as well the ring from Azura. And as correctly stated Vivec and Almalexia were in a wekend state.

Ithelia did absorbe/steal some of the power from Mora or did I misinterpret that? And Apocrypha is Moras domain. So using that power in the acording domain on top of her own. Also Mehrunes Dargon did not seem weekend in the Imperial City during TES4 Oblivion and Martin used the Amulet of Kings to turn himself into an avatar of Akatosh to beat him. So maybe the Champins of Cyrodiil did not get further empoered because he was "new at the job" and not propperly in sync with Sheogoraths power yet.

When I mean empowered, I meant after the Vestige experienced wielding the power of a God it let them reach new heights of power that mere mortals could not dream of.

Also it does not matter if Ithelia absorbed some of Hermaeus Mora's Power, Hermaeus Mora is not a fighter theefor 0% of that power would lend itself to combat or do u think someone like Mara who is the God of Love can swing a sword better then an Ansei can just because she is a God? Do you think Magical Power correlate with Physical strength? because it doesnt.

tsaescishoeshiner

The way I saw it, we didn't completely defeat Ithelia unaided. We had the power of 3 daedric artifacts (which had been combined into a new one) which had been implied earlier in the questline to be tools actively exerting the will of 3 daedric princes or even powerful enough to have their own will. All while in another prince's realm, whereas it seems she hadn't even fully restored hers yet. And this wasn't enough to defeat Ithelia—we attacked until we had her attention to direct the Mirror of Truth at her. She surrendered after that, depleting allllll the power she apparently had left lol.

Overall, I do feel like it did put us a bit more "on her level" than something grander like (main quest spoilers)

the Molag Bal fight

.

SkaraMinoc

I'd like to see a difficulty setting for Chapter boss fights. That way I can set the difficulty to something meaningful and rewarded with achievements for beating the boss on higher difficulty.

TX12001rwb17_ESO

tsaescishoeshiner wrote: »

The way I saw it, we didn't completely defeat Ithelia unaided. We had the power of 3 daedric artifacts (which had been combined into a new one) which had been implied earlier in the questline to be tools actively exerting the will of 3 daedric princes or even powerful enough to have their own will. All while in another prince's realm, whereas it seems she hadn't even fully restored hers yet. And this wasn't enough to defeat Ithelia—we attacked until we had her attention to direct the Mirror of Truth at her. She surrendered after that, depleting allllll the power she apparently had left lol.

Overall, I do feel like it did put us a bit more "on her level" than something grander like (main quest spoilers)

the Molag Bal fight

.

Ithelia was amped in this fight and had absorbed a portion of Hermaeus Mora's power as well, we also do not use the Skein or Lamp in this battle and no we didn't attack her til we had her attention, we attacked her til she was on her back cowering, only then did we show her the mirror, the Vestige outright overpowered a Daedric Prince.

MasterSpatula

Túrin_Vidsmidr wrote: »

The greatest problem is that completely removing a Daedric Prince, who is an incarnation of vital concepts and who is a part of Padomay, would also remove that concept from reality itself.

Ah, but Ithelia shed a good deal of her power before she was imprisoned. In fact, this is the only way she was capable of being rational enough to decide to exile herself.

Ithelia's power still exists in this reality. Fargrave still exists. Mirrormore, even in a much reduced version, still exists as a Prince-less realm of Oblivion with its own unique denizens. Both are manifestations of Ithelia's power, just as every Oblivion realm is a manifestation of its Prince's power.

The Paths still exist. They merely lack their personification, their ego, their Prince.

McMasterx

Soarora wrote: »

That is... a good point. I've already been displeased about the lore of Gold Road and this just makes it far, far worse. There is no reality without the magic of a Daedric Prince unless this is an entirely different Dream itself. Maybe she's out in a sci-fi novel shooting lasers with the Dwemer, but there is no Tamriel without magic in one way or another. Daedric Princes are astral beings; do they even rely on typical magic from Magnus? I'm not even sure it is possible to erase Magnus from existence. I guess you could argue that somehow the Godhead dreamed away Daedric Princes in some reality but I'm not even sure how you'd trigger that even if it were some other Kalpa.

In essence, a world without Magicka is a world where Lorkhan "won." He succeeded in whatever his plan was and wasn't murdered as a result, somehow even convincing Magnus to not leave.

dazee

Maybe she wanted us to defeat her so she made it our Fate to do so?

colossalvoids

I honestly believe it's just a bad writing what caused any discussions like that, for me this chapter was more like fantasy fanfic and I can not take it as something actually lore-relevant no matter if approved by Beth or not, not even sure if there anyone left in company to actually have valid opinion on that at all.