Buff Arc's Impervious Runeward to match the standard set by Sorc's Hardened Ward

SkaraMinoc

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

SkaraMinoc wrote: »

Because the other thread is 40+ pages and the majority of people on the forums, including myself, aren't going to read through 800+ replies.

Yeah and 700 of those are "trust me bro, I'm a MagSorc" but instead you choose to nitpick the few posts with actual data and analysis? What is your point?

That wasn't my intention if it came across that way. Genuine thanks to you and others for taking the time to test stuff out and collaborate on combat-related topics. Take care.

LittlePinkDot

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

LittlePinkDot wrote: »

Impervious runeward was designed for PVE tank. It needs to scale with health for tanks. The chakram shield skill scales with Magicka, you can use that one instead.

Chakram is group support, the scaling isn't worth it on its own for a solo shield. You can run it on DD if you really want but you'll probably still need Impervious, which is 12k/6k on my 32k hp open world DD.

Yeah you definitely can use both. Chakram of destiny gives crux, which is convenient. I use both on my PvE tank. She uses crafty alfiq weapons and jewelry so she has 30k Magicka and provides a decent shield for the group. All her attribute points are in health though, so impervious rune ward is still much stronger. But I can use chakram of destiny first for crux along with runic embrace taunt that also builds crux.

LittlePinkDot

LittlePinkDot wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

LittlePinkDot wrote: »

Impervious runeward was designed for PVE tank. It needs to scale with health for tanks. The chakram shield skill scales with Magicka, you can use that one instead.

Chakram is group support, the scaling isn't worth it on its own for a solo shield. You can run it on DD if you really want but you'll probably still need Impervious, which is 12k/6k on my 32k hp open world DD.

Yeah you definitely can use both. Chakram of destiny gives crux, which is convenient. I use both on my PvE tank. She uses crafty alfiq weapons and jewelry so she has 30k Magicka and provides a decent shield for the group. All her attribute points are in health though, so impervious rune ward is still much stronger. But I can use chakram of destiny first for crux along with runic embrace taunt that also builds crux.

For PvP what I'm really wondering is what are you using for a spammable? It's arcanists offensive capabilities that are most lacking in PvP IMO.

xylena_lazarow

LittlePinkDot wrote: »

For PvP what I'm really wondering is what are you using for a spammable? It's arcanists offensive capabilities that are most lacking in PvP IMO.

That's why they lean on pressure procs as an open world DD, my build is posted on the first page ITT, my spammable is split between Blood Craze and Flail. It felt pretty good from u39-u40 but with Sorc and NB getting so many PvP buffs while Arc sits in PvP neutral, I've been playing the same spec on a Warden. Now I can cast Polar Wind on the Sorcs in my group.

Dracane

It should be clear to everyone by now, that OP has a personal vendetta against Magsorc. That's all there is to it.
Runeward has a whole different purpose than Conjured Ward, and it fullfills it perfectly. When under high pressure, you have to spam wards on either class, and Arcanist spams much better, because a shield won't last a second when beset upon by several foes.

Same is true for pve. Arcanist tanks are much better at warding off dangerous boss attacks by activating the ward when you see the attack getting charged. I think Runeward is all around better than Conjured Ward for the highest of pressure situations in pvp and pve, which are the situations that matter most.

StaticWave

Dracane wrote: »

It should be clear to everyone by now, that OP has a personal vendetta against Magsorc. That's all there is to it.
Runeward has a whole different purpose than Conjured Ward, and it fullfills it perfectly. When under high pressure, you have to spam wards on either class, and Arcanist spams much better, because a shield won't last a second when beset upon by several foes.

Same is true for pve. Arcanist tanks are much better at warding off dangerous boss attacks by activating the ward when you see the attack getting charged. I think Runeward is all around better than Conjured Ward for the highest of pressure situations in pvp and pve, which are the situations that matter most.

I'm a sorc main that's also using Ward and I'm on a crusade against the skill. It's just objectively overpowered rn

Dracane

StaticWave wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

It should be clear to everyone by now, that OP has a personal vendetta against Magsorc. That's all there is to it.
Runeward has a whole different purpose than Conjured Ward, and it fullfills it perfectly. When under high pressure, you have to spam wards on either class, and Arcanist spams much better, because a shield won't last a second when beset upon by several foes.

Same is true for pve. Arcanist tanks are much better at warding off dangerous boss attacks by activating the ward when you see the attack getting charged. I think Runeward is all around better than Conjured Ward for the highest of pressure situations in pvp and pve, which are the situations that matter most.

I'm a sorc main that's also using Ward and I'm on a crusade against the skill.

I can tell, but you are an Aldmeri Dominion sorcerer. Crusades are in our blood.

Be it as it may with ward; it seems many people prefer stamsorc over magsorc regardless. Most competent players I see are stamsorc or some melee hybrid between the two. Most magsorcs I see are rather inexperienced.

One could almost believe that Stamsorc is still the better spec, and might benefit from all this more than Magsorc does. This leads me back to what I said the other day, with me hoping you don't want to return to a point where Stamsorc is again objectively better than Magsorc in all scenarios.

Turtle_Bot

StaticWave wrote: »

I'm a sorc main that's also using Ward and I'm on a crusade against the skill. It's just objectively overpowered rn

The big difference between you and OP is that:
1. You are at least trying to put forward practical ideas for actual solutions to balance ward that include a reasonable give and take so that magsorc doesn't just vanish again.
2. You also generally take the time to read and understand the entirety of the points being put forward and tend to do so in good faith and acknowledge the good points being raised, even if you don't completely agree with them.

I'd mention what OP has been like in their vendetta against ward, but I really cbb dealing with the guaranteed [snip] from the mod team for simply posting facts again.

btw, @StaticWave I hope you got the chance to read my recent, long post in your thread (that probably got lost in all the recent back and forth) about the differences in mag/stamsorc defensive kits. It should hopefully provide some insight into the differences between mag and stamsorc and how they defend themselves.

I made it because I know you are a stamsorc main who's specialty is stamsorc in particular and you also specifically asked about it. As someone who has played pretty much all versions of sorc over the past few years (and magsorc since I started this game), I was simply hoping to provide some insight on that particular aspect of the topic of sorcs defensive options.

Note:
That comment is not to be taken as a defense of the ward burst heal (as a few seem to have mistaken it as), or that I think the burst heal should stay (as some like to mistakenly attempt to claim/insinuate), but I did it to hopefully help provide some insight as to how and why magsorcs defensive kit is so different to stamsorcs defensive kit and why trying to apply the stamsorcs defensive kit to magsorc just doesn't work out in practice like it should in theory (or like it typically works out when applying that same reasoning for the different specs for other classes and their defensive kits).

xylena_lazarow

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

I'd mention what OP has been like in their vendetta against ward

Care to say it? If we're talking about crusades and bad faith arguments, I'd be happy to discuss further why a Sorc main would write 1622 words on Sorc defensive rotations without even mentioning Streak a single time.

I have nothing against the MagSorc archetype, it's not like they're running body blocking pets or spamming bow knockback or anything all that heinous, the numbers on their shield are just too big. Range spam in open world PvP is obnoxious, but it's not like that's limited to MagSorcs, then again once one ranged spec becomes powerful and widespread, everyone else is forced to run range to combat them, and now we're playing a bad shooter.

What I dislike is "class loyalists" who put their own class buffs above the health of the game, ignore the power of being fully ranged, ignore the power of Streak, have never seriously played anything other than their main class therefore lacking context, yet feel qualified on how to compare Arc to Sorc. I've played both competitively, have you?

Seriously Sorc mains, go play some Arcanist. I may not be a Real MagSorc (TM) but I actually took the time to learn to play the Sorc class as a whole, as intended by the original devs, without spammable burst heals. If a Fake Sorc like me can learn it, what's stopping all the Real MagSorcs from learning how to do it?

Dracane

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

If a Fake Sorc like me can learn it, what's stopping all the Real MagSorcs from learning how to do it?

And what makes you think that we can't do "it"? We just might not see the issue as vividly. When I play another class that is not my main, I also see ten things that seem too strong to me, because I don't have it, and that's fine. Otherwise there have to be no classes.

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

What I dislike is "class loyalists" who put their own class buffs above the health of the game, ignore the power of being fully ranged, ignore the power of Streak

A fair point to dislike, although loyalty is still a better trait than mere bitterness. A nightblade, with all the gifts and insane tools/damage they bear, doesn't have to rage so against other classes. There is place for more than one strong class. Sorc still won't match the cheer offensive power of Nightblade.

You can build as whatever nowadays, and still 100 to 0 most people on Nightblade. Crit damage and proc sets be praised. Nightblade has absolutely nothing to fear of, not even Hardened Ward.

Turtle_Bot

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

I'd mention what OP has been like in their vendetta against ward

Care to say it?

Like I said, not interested in falling for this Obvious bait 🙄

If we're talking about crusades and bad faith arguments, I'd be happy to discuss further why a Sorc main would write 1622 words on Sorc defensive rotations without even mentioning Streak a single time.

My "1622 words" on sorc defensive rotations did not include streak because there was no reason to talk about streak. It was NOT comparing sorcs defensive kit to another classes defensive kit.

My "1622 words" WAS however, explaining how Bol used to be a magicka roll dodge and rapid regen used to be a magicka vigor and those existing in that capacity was what allowed magsorcs to run the "mag equivalent" of stamsorcs defensive rotation of vigor into roll into exchange to heal up and not be reliant on ward for their entire defense.

If I was to compare a sorc defensive rotation to another class then I would include streak in that comparison, but because the comparison and point of that post was all about comparing magsorc to stamsorc when trying to force magsorc to use stamsorcs defensive rotation, there was no need to include streak.

Now if I do include streak in that comment, that is actually another bonus for stamsorc, being significantly stronger and more cost efficient than magsorc defensively, because magsorc needs BoL to get that "mag roll dodge" equivalent because streak does NOT block attacks like dodge roll does. So stamsorcs defensive rotation actually consists of vigor + streak + roll + dark deal, while magsorcs rotation would be regen + BoL + conversion (and a very, very long time ago, before ward got nerfed into the ground, it used to also include ward, or just stacking up wards because stacking things multiple times is still broken in this game AKA HoTs).

What I dislike is "class loyalists" who put their own class buffs above the health of the game, ignore the power of being fully ranged, ignore the power of Streak, have never seriously played anything other than their main class therefore lacking context, yet feel qualified on how to compare Arc to Sorc. I've played both competitively, have you?

And what I dislike is when people try to select and heavily focus entirely on tiny inconsequential points of a comment to further their own biased agenda in some sort of attempted "gotcha" moment, while conveniently completely ignoring everything else in that post that actually tells them what that point is supposed to be about.

I have also played Arc competitively (X'd and OW dueled). I have actually played all classes competitively within the past 1.5 years except necro (that class just isn't interesting to me) and even for necro I have talked with plenty of necro mains about the class too, so it's not like I'm completely out of the loop on that class either.

I have nothing against the MagSorc archetype, it's not like they're running body blocking pets or spamming bow knockback or anything all that heinous, the numbers on their shield are just too big. Range spam in open world PvP is obnoxious, but it's not like that's limited to MagSorcs, then again once one ranged spec becomes powerful and widespread, everyone else is forced to run range to combat them, and now we're playing a bad shooter.

Your posts don't exactly paint this picture, especially when you deliberately target those who are actually trying to be reasonable, provide information, insight and generally constructive points and actually agree that an adjustment to ward needs to happen.
As for ranged spam, glad to see you finally agree with my point that every class has access to this to varying degrees of effectiveness and it's not just sorcs that can play at range (even though they are one of the most effective at it alongside NB). As for being forced to also run ranged, maybe so in 1v1, but there are plenty of tools that exist in the game that counters ranged abilities (some could be better (DK wings/defensive posture/elusive mist), but others are sufficiently strong enough already (shim shield/slab/S+B ult).
It's not the ranged classes fault that barely anybody bothers to update their builds to suit the meta of the day. Take for example the Bastion CP, how many are bothering to slot that, even if they only have a small shield (say psijic block passive) to also get a 15% damage bonus against sorcs in the red tree (the tree that typically has zero damage options)? How many are bothering to slot gap closers, blood mist (or vault next patch)? probably very few because they just blindly follow whatever youtube video tells them is the "best build" for their chosen class.

Seriously Sorc mains, go play some Arcanist. I may not be a Real MagSorc (TM) but I actually took the time to learn to play the Sorc class as a whole, as intended by the original devs, without spammable burst heals. If a Fake Sorc like me can learn it, what's stopping all the Real MagSorcs from learning how to do it?

Once again, not interested in falling for this Obvious bait 🙄

xylena_lazarow

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

Once again, not interested in falling for this Obvious bait 🙄

Not bait. If I can survive without a burst heal on Sorc, why can't you?

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

My "1622 words" on sorc defensive rotations did not include streak because there was no reason to talk about streak.

If your defensive rotations do not include Streak, then perhaps it's time you try incorporating it?

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

I have also played Arc competitively (X'd and OW dueled)

Okay how does it compare to the current MagSorc? What build or archetype did you run on it? Have you played any Arc since the MDW nerfs and the rise in Sorc and NB buffs?

Turtle_Bot

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

Once again, not interested in falling for this Obvious bait 🙄

Not bait. If I can survive without a burst heal on Sorc, why can't you?

I was surviving fine before the change. That doesn't mean that ward didn't need utility beyond just being "a big shield".

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

My "1622 words" on sorc defensive rotations did not include streak because there was no reason to talk about streak.

If your defensive rotations do not include Streak, then perhaps it's time you try incorporating it?

This right here is exactly what I was talking about with:

And what I dislike is when people try to select and heavily focus entirely on tiny inconsequential points of a comment to further their own biased agenda in some sort of attempted "gotcha" moment

You have once again completely ignored the fact that I am comparing the mag and stam equivalent of the same defensive kit, a kit that mag used to have that used to be as efficient and effective as the current stam version of that same kit before the mag version of it got nerfed into the ground.

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

I have also played Arc competitively (X'd and OW dueled)

Okay how does it compare to the current MagSorc? What build or archetype did you run on it? Have you played any Arc since the MDW nerfs and the rise in Sorc and NB buffs?

Played it pre MDW nerfs, but never ran MDW, I ran runeblades with draugrkin.

As for comparing it to magsorc, they were on par. Arc had better tanking tools as well as a reliable execute (that ability is seriously broken), but sorc was slightly more mobile, not that Arc wasn't mobile, just not AS mobile as sorc.

xylena_lazarow

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

You have once again completely ignored the fact that I am comparing the mag and stam equivalent of the same defensive kit, a kit that mag used to have that used to be as efficient and effective as the current stam version of that same kit before the mag version of it got nerfed into the ground.

MagSorcs run Streak too, and have ever since Frags lost its stun? Yeah they struggled when stat sets were bad, Sorc passives were bad, and you couldn't stack enough max mag efficiently. That's been fixed.

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

As for comparing it to magsorc, they were on par. Arc had better tanking tools as well as a reliable execute (that ability is seriously broken), but sorc was slightly more mobile, not that Arc wasn't mobile, just not AS mobile as sorc.

That's a fair assessment for u40, last patch I did feel like my Arc was on par with Sorc. This is no longer true for u41, try playing your Arc now, and you will see how badly outclassed it is as an open world DD. Tentacle is great but the clunky cast time is a drawback. Once you've felt the power of Hardened Ward, going back to Impervious feels like garbage.

Turtle_Bot

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

You have once again completely ignored the fact that I am comparing the mag and stam equivalent of the same defensive kit, a kit that mag used to have that used to be as efficient and effective as the current stam version of that same kit before the mag version of it got nerfed into the ground.

MagSorcs run Streak too, and have ever since Frags lost its stun? Yeah they struggled when stat sets were bad, Sorc passives were bad, and you couldn't stack enough max mag efficiently. That's been fixed.

I'm not saying that they don't/didn't run streak. I do run streak and I'm fairly certain all PvP magsorcs do run streak and have done ever since BoL got nerfed into the ground all those years ago removing it as a viable alternative.

What I am saying is that forcing a stamsorcs defensive kit (vigor + roll dodge + dark deal + streak) onto magsorc doesn't work since the equivalent skills (BoL + rapid regen) that made the mag version of stamsorcs defensive kit be equal in the past are no longer viable/equal.

It was purely to provide information for static (who asked about it) since he is a stamsorc main and hasn't played magsorc since like 2018 (his statement, not mine).

Dracane

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

I'm not saying that they don't/didn't run streak. I do run streak and I'm fairly certain all PvP magsorcs do run streak and have done ever since BoL got nerfed into the ground all those years ago removing it as a viable alternative.

I have been seeing it often as of late. Worse; it was on Stamsorcs. So much dodging + projectile absorption is nigh unbeatable in 1v1. (But I don't complain, because I know the game is no balanced around dueling.)

Still, it seems like a logical pick right now when more people play ranged builds. You don't really need streak when you have off balance cc's. I always sigh a sigh of relief when a Stamsorc runs Streak instead of BoL, because then I have a chance at beating them.

TechMaybeHic

I've seen BoL a few times. Beyond the projectile absorption, it also seems to manage to act like a LOS from gap closers, so if you have a stun somewhere else, probably is fine. Can still also pair with engine gaurdian and really mess with people trying to target back

StaticWave

Dracane wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

I'm not saying that they don't/didn't run streak. I do run streak and I'm fairly certain all PvP magsorcs do run streak and have done ever since BoL got nerfed into the ground all those years ago removing it as a viable alternative.

I have been seeing it often as of late. Worse; it was on Stamsorcs. So much dodging + projectile absorption is nigh unbeatable in 1v1. (But I don't complain, because I know the game is no balanced around dueling.)

Still, it seems like a logical pick right now when more people play ranged builds. You don't really need streak when you have off balance cc's. I always sigh a sigh of relief when a Stamsorc runs Streak instead of BoL, because then I have a chance at beating them.

Depends on the build. Generally stamsorc is good for OW because of movement speed advantage. Not so great for dueling unless you run a proc build.

This patch with Ward and Vibrant Shroud stamsorc is pretty strong. I’d say it’s on par with NB and DK if i’m being honest.

StaticWave

@Dracane

This is a short fight I did earlier:

https://youtu.be/7tE1NvPn7H8?si=5YwgED1DbAEtcVzz

You can see with decent use of movement speed and Streak, you can be pretty effective on Sorc, regardless of mag or stam. Magsorc should be able to run Hurricane this patch since that 10% max mag passive allows them to drop Inner Light for Hurricane. They can use spell crit potions and run 1x Domi 1x Swarm to get 2k mag and stam back from dropping Inner Light. Overall a net gain since they also have access to Minor Expedition and an AoE DoT

Dracane

StaticWave wrote: »

@Dracane

This is a short fight I did earlier:

https://youtu.be/7tE1NvPn7H8?si=5YwgED1DbAEtcVzz

You can see with decent use of movement speed and Streak, you can be pretty effective on Sorc, regardless of mag or stam. Magsorc should be able to run Hurricane this patch since that 10% max mag passive allows them to drop Inner Light for Hurricane. They can use spell crit potions and run 1x Domi 1x Swarm to get 2k mag and stam back from dropping Inner Light. Overall a net gain since they also have access to Minor Expedition and an AoE DoT

You already posted it several times. I don't really know what this is supposed to show. Everyone can be king of object kiting, no matter what class. Sorry, but I don't see your point.

You already know that I run Boundless Storm. Always have. You assume too much about my build.

Major_Toughness

Joy_Division wrote: »

Both Arcanists and Sorcerers should have their shields matched with the Templar's Sun Shield skill.

Joy for game dev.

Galeriano2

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

SkaraMinoc wrote: »

When you're under pressure, Impervious Ward is the clear winner.

Nope not even close, this is what it actually looks like from someone who plays both classes in Cyro.

Notice Hardened doing 2791 hps (86.5%) to Impervious doing 1593 hps (46.1%) in Cyro open world situations, thats Hardened damn near doubling up on Impervious.

Arc recovery hard depends on layering hots underneath your Impervious spam. You can't just spam Impervious alone and recover like you can spam Hardened alone and recover. The combined shield + heal on Hardened is massively stronger when spammed compared to Impervious being slightly bigger initially but having no heal once your Crux is burned.

Yes You can


Both screenshots taken in Cyro while fighting and killing enemies. Hardened almost looks underpowered when compared to impervious under right conditions.

On a side note I didn't even need that heal from rundeguard of still waters it was just proccing because I intend to go low on HP to benefit from arterial burst/ blood for blood since I have a massive shield and emergency heal that will proc automatically to back me up so once in a while I will get runeguard proc. Also setup You linked earlier looks like a situational meme tbh so no wonder You consider arcanist as mediocre.

xylena_lazarow

Galeriano2 wrote: »

Also setup You linked earlier looks like a situational meme tbh so no wonder You consider arcanist as mediocre.

Thanks for the CMX posts. Those are some big heals, what build did you use?

StaticWave

Dracane wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

@Dracane

This is a short fight I did earlier:

https://youtu.be/7tE1NvPn7H8?si=5YwgED1DbAEtcVzz

You can see with decent use of movement speed and Streak, you can be pretty effective on Sorc, regardless of mag or stam. Magsorc should be able to run Hurricane this patch since that 10% max mag passive allows them to drop Inner Light for Hurricane. They can use spell crit potions and run 1x Domi 1x Swarm to get 2k mag and stam back from dropping Inner Light. Overall a net gain since they also have access to Minor Expedition and an AoE DoT

You already posted it several times. I don't really know what this is supposed to show. Everyone can be king of object kiting, no matter what class. Sorry, but I don't see your point.

You already know that I run Boundless Storm. Always have. You assume too much about my build.

I was showing how Ward in a Cyrodiil 1vX fight did 20% of my HPS.