Scribing Is Cool But..

Shagreth

.. there's something about this tired old meta that won't change very much. That is the need to slot certain abilities for them 'to just be there' for their passive effects, that kind of design is simply not fun. Abilities like Flawless Dawnbreaker, Beast Trap, Camouflaged Hunter etc. At the very least give us alternatives, or in the case of ultimates.. make other weapon or class ults more appealing. Was also hoping for some change or cool addition for Vampires, but alas.

@ZOS_Kevin

Gray_howling_parrot

Use what's most exciting and appealing to you. It doesn't matter what game it is - there will always be a META. Just because something isn't META (MOST effective tactic available) doesn't mean it's not still extremely effective.

I'm sure they'll be adding all sorts of stuff to Psijic, Werewolf, Vampire, etc. in the future. They had to start somewhere and I think 4000 combinations is a good starting point lol.

sleepy_worm

Cooperharley wrote: »

(MOST effective tactic available)

Definitely off-topic, but that's for sure a bacronym for the term derived from "metagaming."

On topic, I agree. These skills look really neat for my weird themed builds. I'm not sure they were really ready to shake up the PVE meta that much with this update. That's probably a good thing?

nwilliams2107b16_ESO

Play what you enjoy, not what others expect you to play, if they paid my sub fair enough, they don’t, so jog on! Been playing since Beta, never play the META, yet still have fun and do pretty well!

Shagreth

You are all missing the point, there are very few options for those of us that want to deal the most damage possible in the shortest amount of time, if you want to do hard modes (especially in new content) it's somewhat expected of you. Pretending it isn't and just saying "play how you like" is not a valid argument here. That said, I hate being forced (using the word liberally here) to use X or Y ability for what feels like a decade, I want more options. So far scribing doesn't offer much in terms of replacing certain buffs that are considered must-haves, but let's see how it goes in the future. Dawnbreaker is a huge offender for me however and I wish they could just remove the passive "Slayer" altogether.

MudcrabAttack

Usually when these summer patches hit there’s a huge crowd of people grinding to get the latest thing. This might be one of the rare patches where lots of people won’t grind for anything, since DPS builds don’t seem to be changing.

Theist_VII

MudcrabAttack wrote: »

Usually when these summer patches hit there’s a huge crowd of people grinding to get the latest thing. This might be one of the rare patches where lots of people won’t grind for anything, since DPS builds don’t seem to be changing.

Should be interesting for player retention.

When your veterans have no reason to interact with the chapter system, they don’t purchase it or even play the patch… we saw this with High Isle and Tales of Tribute.

Lowest numbers in a long time that update, and now we’re getting a system that’s useless for a large group of players on launch.

Finedaible

I think what op means is that the Slayer passive is just too good to pass up on many builds to the point that Fighter's Guild skills feel like the only good choices. Nearly every single optimized build has at least one FG skill like Barbed Trap on it for this reason. 20s Minor Force, potent bleed dot, and 3% weapon spell damage? Why wouldn't you slot Barbed Trap?

Another example, Camo Hunter brings you passive Major Savagery/Prophecy, Minor Berserk, and 3% weapon/spell damage just for being on the bar at no other cost than bar space. However, bar space feels really cramped in this game and many of us get bored with our "options". There are some class skill alternatives for Major Savagery and Prophecy now, but if we compare their budget to Camo Hunter, they aren't bringing much else. Of course there's always potions for buffs, but unless you want to spend gold chugging potions during your entire gameplay, there's really not great alternatives. Even under the Scribing system you will get at best 10s of a buff for casting a skill, but with no extra benefit from slotting it when you could just slot something else with greater duration and less cost. What players were hoping for with Scribing was more flexible choices which had comparable power budgets for alternative playstyles.

xylena_lazarow

Telos_Tim wrote: »

Lowest numbers in a long time that update, and now we’re getting a system that’s useless for a large group of players

PvP may not be as large a group, but Scribing does at least look to shake up a very stale PvP meta.

Shagreth

Finedaible wrote: »

I think what op means is that the Slayer passive is just too good to pass up on many builds to the point that Fighter's Guild skills feel like the only good choices. Nearly every single optimized build has at least one FG skill like Barbed Trap on it for this reason. 20s Minor Force, potent bleed dot, and 3% weapon spell damage? Why wouldn't you slot Barbed Trap?

Indeed. I have beef with a few other abilities, but nothing comes close to Fighter's Guild passives and being 'forced' to have Trap, Dawnbreaker etc.

@ZOS_Kevin Either removing the Slayer passive or giving us more options via Scribing would do wonders for build diversity.

Tannus15

I'd love to have some explanation for why all the grimoires do less damage than skills already in the game.

Especially for skills like wield soul which is a spammable and has no beneficial passives.

Clearly this is a choice the devs have made. it's not an accident. Why have they decided to make the system under powered?

Soarora

Tannus15 wrote: »

I'd love to have some explanation for why all the grimoires do less damage than skills already in the game.

Especially for skills like wield soul which is a spammable and has no beneficial passives.

Clearly this is a choice the devs have made. it's not an accident. Why have they decided to make the system under powered?

ZOS did mention somewhere they wanted scribing to be a utility thing, not a damaging thing. This is probably because they know they need to stop adding powercreep, which is also probably why 85% (not an exact number) of new sets added are useless. Almost all the buffs and debuffs from scribing are already possible to obtain.

For a tank, scribing will become very necessary between the new single target chain, aoe chain, new way to proc PA, new ways of applying many buffs and debuffs, etc. Let alone flavor options like new taunts and interrupts.

Edit: Also, on the topic of dawnbreaker, no matter what you slot there it's going to be a passive skill unless you're a nightblade or a warden anyways. You can't use both ults and almost all damaging ults are AoEs, there's no reason to have 2 usable ults as a DPS (except as a nightblade or a warden).

Shagreth

Soarora wrote: »

Edit: Also, on the topic of dawnbreaker, no matter what you slot there it's going to be a passive skill unless you're a nightblade or a warden anyways. You can't use both ults and almost all damaging ults are AoEs, there's no reason to have 2 usable ults as a DPS (except as a nightblade or a warden).

Or, you know, they could balance stuff better. As for dawnbreaker, I disagree, there are tons of options one could go for more utility, an emergency heal, dmg reduction etc. ANYTHING (even if situational) other than something that just sits there for its passive -- I'd take. The existence of Slayer & Dawnbreaker for what feels like a decade with no other options screams bad design and there's no room for arguing there.

C_Inside

The problem with Barbed Trap is that there just isn't a better way to proc Minor Force. It's either Trap, Accelerate, Stalwart Guard or Dark Deal. Of those Trap is the only one that deals damage. Not only does it deal damage but it also happens to be 1 of the strongest DOTs in the game.

There are also a number of sets that give Minor Force but why would you waste a 5 piece bonus that could be something like Pillar or Rele for Minor Force when 1 of the strongest DOT skills in the game already provides it?

The solution here would be to have better alternatives to gain Minor Force than what we have now. For a long time Necro has been missing group utility so changing one of its passives to give group wide Minor Force is an option. Giving some class spammables Minor Force for a short duration like 3-5 seconds is another.

As for Dawnbreaker the problem here is with how the ultimate system works. You can slot 2 ultimates but they both use the same resource. Furthermore when you cast an ultimate you use all of your ult points no matter what the cost it. So even if you have 2 ults slotted you're always going to use the stronger one because both would bring you down to 0 ult points. Therefore the most efficient way to build is to have the weaker ultimate be a bar buffer beccause it serves no other purpose in combat. Dawnbreaker just happens to give you the most raw damage for slotting it at no extra cost compared to other possible options so that's what every damage dealer uses.

The solution here would be to give more passive damage options for other ultimates. Some class ones already do this like Nightblades and Necros giving crit chance but neither give as much damage as Dawnbreaker. So why then would you slot collossus or incap? Another alternative is to have a system where an ultimate's cost would be reduced if it's slotted on both bars.

In both cases however we shouldn't advocate for Barbed Trap and Dawnbreaker to be removed but for more efficient options in certain cases, with certain classes, and with certain group compositions to be available. Dawnbreaker should still be the best option in some cases, but not in all cases.

Shagreth

C_Inside wrote: »

In both cases however we shouldn't advocate for Barbed Trap and Dawnbreaker to be removed but for more efficient options in certain cases, with certain classes, and with certain group compositions to be available. Dawnbreaker should still be the best option in some cases, but not in all cases.

Not talking about removal. But slayer should be changed. The keyword in all this is options.

Quethrosar

the problem in this game is the lack of choice to do the same damage as other choices. As a sorcerer i should be able to play with pets or no pets for same damage for example. diversity should come in roleplay elements such as lightning vs. fire. vs ice. all can do the same damage but look different and maybe a side effect is different. sets should be balanced the same way. if i want a swarm of crows it should do the same damage as another set from the same tier, a tier being, craft, overland, dungeon, or trial. it's ok to creep power, we need to feel more powerful, but don't make it a chase on 1 set, make it spread across sets with different rp aspects / effects.

and i don't mean RP as in look at me pretending to be something, i mean as in look and feel of the class / abilities.

Elyu

C_Inside wrote: »

The problem with Barbed Trap is that there just isn't a better way to proc Minor Force. It's either Trap, Accelerate, Stalwart Guard or Dark Deal. Of those Trap is the only one that deals damage. Not only does it deal damage but it also happens to be 1 of the strongest DOTs in the game.

There are also a number of sets that give Minor Force but why would you waste a 5 piece bonus that could be something like Pillar or Rele for Minor Force when 1 of the strongest DOT skills in the game already provides it?

The solution here would be to have better alternatives to gain Minor Force than what we have now. For a long time Necro has been missing group utility so changing one of its passives to give group wide Minor Force is an option. Giving some class spammables Minor Force for a short duration like 3-5 seconds is another.

As for Dawnbreaker the problem here is with how the ultimate system works. You can slot 2 ultimates but they both use the same resource. Furthermore when you cast an ultimate you use all of your ult points no matter what the cost it. So even if you have 2 ults slotted you're always going to use the stronger one because both would bring you down to 0 ult points. Therefore the most efficient way to build is to have the weaker ultimate be a bar buffer beccause it serves no other purpose in combat. Dawnbreaker just happens to give you the most raw damage for slotting it at no extra cost compared to other possible options so that's what every damage dealer uses.

The solution here would be to give more passive damage options for other ultimates. Some class ones already do this like Nightblades and Necros giving crit chance but neither give as much damage as Dawnbreaker. So why then would you slot collossus or incap? Another alternative is to have a system where an ultimate's cost would be reduced if it's slotted on both bars.

In both cases however we shouldn't advocate for Barbed Trap and Dawnbreaker to be removed but for more efficient options in certain cases, with certain classes, and with certain group compositions to be available. Dawnbreaker should still be the best option in some cases, but not in all cases.

So TLDR: increase build diversity?
If so I'm all for it. MMBVTA! (Make Meme Builds Viable for Trifecta Attempts)

techprince

Camo hunter can be replaced by Traveling Knife for Major Savagery/Prophecy at the very least.

ElderSmitter

C_Inside wrote: »

The problem with Barbed Trap is that there just isn't a better way to proc Minor Force. It's either Trap, Accelerate, Stalwart Guard or Dark Deal. Of those Trap is the only one that deals damage. Not only does it deal damage but it also happens to be 1 of the strongest DOTs in the game.

There are also a number of sets that give Minor Force but why would you waste a 5 piece bonus that could be something like Pillar or Rele for Minor Force when 1 of the strongest DOT skills in the game already provides it?

The solution here would be to have better alternatives to gain Minor Force than what we have now. For a long time Necro has been missing group utility so changing one of its passives to give group wide Minor Force is an option. Giving some class spammables Minor Force for a short duration like 3-5 seconds is another.

As for Dawnbreaker the problem here is with how the ultimate system works. You can slot 2 ultimates but they both use the same resource. Furthermore when you cast an ultimate you use all of your ult points no matter what the cost it. So even if you have 2 ults slotted you're always going to use the stronger one because both would bring you down to 0 ult points. Therefore the most efficient way to build is to have the weaker ultimate be a bar buffer beccause it serves no other purpose in combat. Dawnbreaker just happens to give you the most raw damage for slotting it at no extra cost compared to other possible options so that's what every damage dealer uses.

The solution here would be to give more passive damage options for other ultimates. Some class ones already do this like Nightblades and Necros giving crit chance but neither give as much damage as Dawnbreaker. So why then would you slot collossus or incap? Another alternative is to have a system where an ultimate's cost would be reduced if it's slotted on both bars.

In both cases however we shouldn't advocate for Barbed Trap and Dawnbreaker to be removed but for more efficient options in certain cases, with certain classes, and with certain group compositions to be available. Dawnbreaker should still be the best option in some cases, but not in all cases.

Barbed Trap is no longer the strongest DOT in the game. It was Nerfed into the ground and now you have to Keep up the status effect to get the benefit. If you are using Velothi 100% Minor Force uptime as a Templar or Arcanist Barb trap is not needed unless you have the spot and want the 3% dam increase.

Nerhesi

There will be no/minimal change unfortunately due to the systemic issues with the design decision in this game:

Play the way you want = no roles, no wide meta. By making everything available to everyone, you remove the flavour or roles.

"Action" RPG = under the guide of action and smooth gameplay, they've created an unfortunate system that pretends the lack of cast times, longer-duration CC, Cooldowns, offensive purge and so on is somehow "cool fluid combat". The reality is you've eliminated meaningful choices and actual strategic decisions. At top end pvp, we're bunny hopping around eachother for 3-25 mins with great burst, sustain, heal, mitigation, pressure and cc. The game has no meaningful roles.

You can do an action RPG that has fluid combat, but still have traditional roles, CC, cast times, debuffs and purges, and meaningful choices. However, this requires a significant meta change.

This won't happen due to the fear the company seems to display when trying to make any meaningful changes (e.g. See historically weaving changes, dot changes, proc changes, cp changes, etc). Because we're in this "rut" - and we are afraid to change it and upset the existing people (like me) who have learned to flip burgers effectively (weaving and rotations), we can't introduce new mechanics that change anything.

I have 5 slots x 2 Bars. You're going to have to give me something that heals better than Vigor, DPSs' better than force shock, does more burst than frags or curse, is a strong dot than my class dot etc... and if you manage to do that then guess what? You've just replaced one icon with the other... I will just have a different colour ability that is mathematically more relevant than the other.

If we want meaningful change, we need to be able to accept a massive change to the way combat is done in this game. The only way this happens is be removing the infinite sustain and moving to a more traditional absolute values matter approach where you can actually be tapped or run out of resources. You also need to have it where people that can heal can't DPS and so on...

Until then, it is just an illusion of what generally available skill is meta that I will slot in my very limited choice-bar.

Shagreth

Nerhesi wrote: »

If we want meaningful change, we need to be able to accept a massive change to the way combat is done in this game. The only way this happens is be removing the infinite sustain and moving to a more traditional absolute values matter approach where you can actually be tapped or run out of resources. You also need to have it where people that can heal can't DPS and so on...

Until then, it is just an illusion of what generally available skill is meta that I will slot in my very limited choice-bar.

You pretty much summed up what I have in my head about the game and the state of combat. This community will never accept such a change, or at least the few people that post around here and give us this impression. Big changes need to happen if the game is to survive, until then.. I'll gladly take a couple more option.

p00tx

Tannus15 wrote: »

I'd love to have some explanation for why all the grimoires do less damage than skills already in the game.

Especially for skills like wield soul which is a spammable and has no beneficial passives.

Clearly this is a choice the devs have made. it's not an accident. Why have they decided to make the system under powered?

I guessing it's because of PvP. You can't add in anything that increases dmg or PvPers start getting upset, so here we are. I honestly wish they would have used this opportunity to code these skills for either/or scenarios where the skills affect players and NPS in different ways. It would go a long way toward allowing PvE its usual dmg creep while appeasing PvPers.

Ramber

I have no plans on doing this at all like ever using the psijic skill line.

Nerhesi

p00tx wrote: »

Tannus15 wrote: »

I'd love to have some explanation for why all the grimoires do less damage than skills already in the game.

Especially for skills like wield soul which is a spammable and has no beneficial passives.

Clearly this is a choice the devs have made. it's not an accident. Why have they decided to make the system under powered?

I guessing it's because of PvP. You can't add in anything that increases dmg or PvPers start getting upset, so here we are. I honestly wish they would have used this opportunity to code these skills for either/or scenarios where the skills affect players and NPS in different ways. It would go a long way toward allowing PvE its usual dmg creep while appeasing PvPers.

Yup - but even in pve.

Scribing either introduces good skills - that make other skills crap and therefore are overpowered (think of something being better than force shock or elemental weapon, or dizzy swing or whatever).

OR

As you’re finding out, they can’t make scribing just overshadow the already meta skills out there - so scribing will almost never be used except for “fun”.

Chilly-McFreeze

C_Inside wrote: »

The problem with Barbed Trap is that there just isn't a better way to proc Minor Force.

According to the scribing simulator I have seen there is only 1 scribing skill, that allows minor Force as an Affix. Ulfsild's Contingency, which can also has a DoT signature and fire focus. However, I haven't further explored how much dmg it does. Someone tested this? But I guess it would've already been mentioned here if it was worth any consideration.

sunsrest

I don't know if the scribing skills will impact my solo dungeon/WB build, I sort of doubt it, it's one bar and mostly siphoning skills due to using Soulcleaver, but I'm excited to play around with the new skills on my nerfed overland build where I'm using mainly 2H and psijic skills, mostly just using the front bar, I can see 2 or 3 front bar skills being replaced with something custom made through scribing.

Pelanora

They should just give a whole third bar. 5 more choices plus ulti.

BasP

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

C_Inside wrote: »

The problem with Barbed Trap is that there just isn't a better way to proc Minor Force.

According to the scribing simulator I have seen there is only 1 scribing skill, that allows minor Force as an Affix. Ulfsild's Contingency, which can also has a DoT signature and fire focus. However, I haven't further explored how much dmg it does. Someone tested this? But I guess it would've already been mentioned here if it was worth any consideration.

While I was mostly interested in replacing Barbed Trap with the Frost version of Ulfsild's Contingency on my Wardens, I also tried the Fire version on a couple of other classes, and I'm personally going to continue using Barbed Trap instead. My DPS was higher with Trap than Ulfsild's Contingency every time and slotting it is nice for the passives anyways.

Mind you that I only tried Ulfsild's Contingency while parsing. Perhaps in content, where my uptime on Barbed Trap is generally lower, using Ulfsild's Contingency might actually work better. Perhaps if I have a lot of Ink and nothing to spend it on on the live server I'll experiment with Contingency some more, but I think other Scribing skills can be of more use to me.

Pelanora

^^^ I did exactly that but with magic as i don't have fire yet. The magic damage seems to have a very small radius. I'm used to the range of curse, so was surprised by - I think- the small range. Combat metrics isn't picking it up so I'm not 100%.

NuarBlack

Pelanora wrote: »

They should just give a whole third bar. 5 more choices plus ulti.

No, they need to delete the buff system so you pick skills for what they do instead of the buffs they provide. The buff standardization failed miserably, just look at necro. Irrelevant cause it doesn't have access to as many buffs and debuffs. Delete the need to slot things just to have certain buffs to meet base line power levels and watch bar space free up.

Alternatively they could just add a passive slotting system and remove them from active skills.

Pelanora

NuarBlack wrote: »

Pelanora wrote: »

They should just give a whole third bar. 5 more choices plus ulti.

No, they need to delete the buff system so you pick skills for what they do instead of the buffs they provide. The buff standardization failed miserably, just look at necro. Irrelevant cause it doesn't have access to as many buffs and debuffs. Delete the need to slot things just to have certain buffs to meet base line power levels and watch bar space free up.

Alternatively they could just add a passive slotting system and remove them from active skills.

Yes buffs are particularly annoying. Buffs done some other way would be a great innovation.

I wasn't thinking of an extra bar for more buffs but just more variation in game play.