Layering RNG Factors Where They Are Unecessary is Deeply Disturbing

Personofsecrets · May 14

During the 10th Aniverssary Stream Zos_Kevin discussed adding RNG to the Infinite Archive. The theory is that we get a bunch of RNG within the Infinite Archive because it is fun.

Well, I beg to differ. And yes, this is a TOT post, we will get there.

I was personally discussing with others how fun a boss rush type of dungeon would be in ESO since, I don't exactly know, but let's say around 2017. All of the monster assets already exist. They just need to buff them up, put them in an arena, and have them come one after another.

So it was interesting to finally receive a similar game type in the form of Infinite Archive. As it turns out, there are a number of aspects of Infinite Archive that I don't like and I personally wouldn't have implimented the game type with drudge through trash adds and as an "infinite" game mode. Indeed, a finite game mode would be less of an unapproachable slog, but wait, there is more.

And these sentiments aren't just mine, but also that of some of the people who have gotten extremly far into the Infinite Archive. It's the understanding of how RNG impacts the game mode and there are a number of archive instances that amount to drudgery at best or a waste of time at worst due to RNG factos such as the Visions.

And it is absolutely the case that the RNG aspects of Vision powering up, trash compositions, and Marauder timing act as aspects that frustrate the experience of the Archive. Maybe some may think that is an opinion, but keep in mind how we don't get to experience the alternate reality where superfulous RNG wasn't baked into the game mode and where people don't have those aggravating things to deal with.

Onto TOT. And I know that with this specific piece of feedback I am screaming into the infinite void. The power generating starter cards are a wholly unnecessary dimension of the game which add the dumbest form of RNG into the most vital part of the game such that drawing those specific cards in different orders is the difference between success and failure.

The power generating starter cards are extremely player unfriendly. They inhibit low skill players who don't know how to handle them. They inhibit high skill players who just so happen to receive them in a bad order.

Some players create a meta-game around these cards in the hopes that the opponent gets one and therefore scummed out of making a strong first play while they don't have such problems on their key turn. What an extremly toxic form of RNG.

They artificially hold players back from advancing their strategy and prolong the game by the direct inhibition of purchasing power.

I have nothing good to say about the power generating starter cards and that is because there is nothing good to say about them.

I'll scream into the void extra hard this time - THE POWER GENERATING STARTER CARDS ARE THE WORST GAME PIECES IN TALES OF TRIBUTE.

And for those in the back - RNG ISN'T FUN AND IF WE JUST ASSUME IT IS, THEN IT CLEARLY BECOMES UNFUN AT A CERTAIN POINT - THE POWER GENERATING STARTER CARDS ARE WELL PAST THAT POINT.

I've written previously about these extremely unfun cards below.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/648279/the-latent-toxicity-of-the-power-generating-starter-cards

Jaimeh · May 14

The RNG in IA is one of the rare instances in the game that makes player experience better imo. It may sound weird but I really like that I don't know which combination of buffs I will get in a new run, or which Marauder will turn up in each arc, or which combination of mechanics will happen past arc 4 (talking about the extra shard/beam/blob mechanics). It's one aspect that makes every run feel fresh and there's anticipation and excitement. Sure, I wouldn't mind having focused efforts on every choice but then there would be no anticipation and no creative building on the spot (which incidentally is one of the best things about IA--that you have to build around your buffs). So personally I like how RNG is woven in IA and wouldn't want that changed.

Personofsecrets · May 14

Jaimeh wrote: »

The RNG in IA is one of the rare instances in the game that makes player experience better imo. It may sound weird but I really like that I don't know which combination of buffs I will get in a new run, or which Marauder will turn up in each arc, or which combination of mechanics will happen past arc 4 (talking about the extra shard/beam/blob mechanics). It's one aspect that makes every run feel fresh and there's anticipation and excitement. Sure, I wouldn't mind having focused efforts on every choice but then there would be no anticipation and no creative building on the spot (which incidentally is one of the best things about IA--that you have to build around your buffs). So personally I like how RNG is woven in IA and wouldn't want that changed.

There are those who enjoy all kinds of things - I won't get into discussing that idea for what should be obvious reasons.

One thing that I will tackle though is the idea that RNG "keeps things fresh." That just isn't a true statement. Regardless of any amount of RNG that can be added to anything, the experience is finite.

This is especially true with minor RNG factors that don't affect the main gist of things. What I mean by that is that there are a number of RNG factors that can be seen as unecessary by anyone, regardless of what they think is fun, because those particular factors don't really affect the active play or outcomes.

But onto the more major factors that one may find to be impactful and therefore fun. I can still say that one doesn't know how good the experience could be without the extraneous factor of random thing. But what I can also say is that the branching paths of such factors are limited in such a way that the fun value offered should be limited.

Branch one: Good Verses, do more things, continue on

Branch two: Bad Verses, do less things, struggle while being artificially restricted

I just tank and it was depressing to find out that my teammate wasn't finding what they felt they needed to succeed. As far as I was concerned, the buffs didn't really matter. And, hypothetically speaking, after spending enough time in the dungeon, one get's all of the buffs that they would want anyhow.

So that is certainly an aspect that I don't understand about the archive. It was formed in a way that isn't accessible towards those who don't have the infinite hours to spend on the content. And this isn't the normal "don't have time" issue. This is the "don't have 10 plus consecutive hours" issue that is required for a more rewarding experience.

And that is most of all what RNG is. A time sink. We have learned that such time sink is totally unecessary in ESO. I write that because of quality in life improvements that have been made to the game such as trait changing, currated drops, and reforging lost equipment. Although time is a resource that is needed in order to distinguish players, doing so through RNG is unecessary.

And to give a relevant TOT example, I'll speak about Briarheart Ritual, but this applies to any must buy card situation. I've been on the doing and receiving end of this issue. It's possible to miss Briarheart Ritual purchasing for no reason other than RNG related to the Power Generating starter cards. There is quite a difference between only making a write of coin on ones turn and being able to buy a Briarheart Ritual and have really great combo chances on future purchase. And I'd like to reiterate a point from earlier regarding how this superfulous RNG isn't even necessary.

If we are just looking at the branching pathways of the game we could find the below ones.

Branch one - Good tavern buy, do more things, proceed

Branch two - bad tavern buy, do less things, struggle

The game is already formed such that branch one or two can happen. The power generating starter cards are just a heavy handed RNG thumb on the scale that dictates sometimes Branch one or Branch two happens when it otherwise wouldn't have happened. The power generating starter cards aren't fun, aren't interesting, don't add to the game in a meaningful way outside of maybe some corner cases, and the thing that they do for the game is already done in a fully sufficient way for those who find fun in RNG without them adding additional unnecessary RNG layers.

Thank you for writing and I hope that you can sort of imagine the things that don't exist because RNG systems were put into their place instead.

spartaxoxo · May 14

The only thing I like about the power starter cards is they can be the only line of defense against early agents.

Seraphayel · May 14

spartaxoxo wrote: »

The only thing I like about the power starter cards is they can be the only line of defense against early agents.

I wish they would just add a little more to the game, maybe a combo for 1 coin. But overall it‘s just uneven and can really throw you way back when you‘re playing with three patrons that have a power card attached to them and you’re stuck with rounds of just 2, 3 or 4 coin. Especially these early rounds matter so much and when you’re faced with this it already is a huge disadvantage. Even worse if you’re going second and your additional coin can’t be used properly.

spartaxoxo · May 14

Seraphayel wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

The only thing I like about the power starter cards is they can be the only line of defense against early agents.

I wish they would just add a little more to the game, maybe a combo for 1 coin. But overall it‘s just uneven and can really throw you way back when you‘re playing with three patrons that have a power card attached to them and you’re stuck with rounds of just 2, 3 or 4 coin. Especially these early rounds matter so much and when you’re faced with this it already is a huge disadvantage. Even worse if you’re going second and your additional coin can’t be used properly.

Yes, that's why dealing with agents is the one and only thing I like about them. I put it out there because if they address the power cards, they also need to address early game agents

Personofsecrets · May 14

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

The only thing I like about the power starter cards is they can be the only line of defense against early agents.

I wish they would just add a little more to the game, maybe a combo for 1 coin. But overall it‘s just uneven and can really throw you way back when you‘re playing with three patrons that have a power card attached to them and you’re stuck with rounds of just 2, 3 or 4 coin. Especially these early rounds matter so much and when you’re faced with this it already is a huge disadvantage. Even worse if you’re going second and your additional coin can’t be used properly.

Yes, that's why dealing with agents is the one and only thing I like about them. I put it out there because if they address the power cards, they also need to address early game agents

The power generating starter cards have potential to help with agents, but are totally insufficient in doing so. So they already should make more tools that address agent base play. Most games, the power generating starter cards aren't even that relevant in dealing with the agents since all early game agents have more than 1 health and because they would have to be drawn in the right way that answers the opposing agent before that agent get's a game defining amount of value.

It also could be the case that the best way to address agent play is to make a strong move. That is something that the power generating starter cards inhibit. Sometimes, one artificially doesn't get to develop what they want to do which could be a way of staying on parity with agents exactly because the power generating starter cards don't allow the purchasing power to develop in that way.

Ideally, the power generating starter cards will all give gold instead. Maybe they can have a combo 2 for giving some amount of power, such as 2 power, there can be better general balance overall (including with agents). Maybe additional tools can be put into the game to deal with agents such as one that could be provided by a new class or even by putting an additional Black Sacrament / Ambush into the default deck.

Bare in mind, agent strategies are strategies too. They are strong, but sometimes are useful for beating other strong strategies. There really should be balance looked at in TOT across the entire board.

Treeshka · May 16

I can not say much about Tales of Tribute part of this topic but if i have bad visions on first two Arcs i just reset. One can say having bad cards via randomness results in lose.

Personofsecrets · May 17

Treeshka wrote: »

I can not say much about Tales of Tribute part of this topic but if i have bad visions on first two Arcs i just reset. One can say having bad cards via randomness results in lose.

Yes, that is the point I make.

In the case of Archive, I think that it would be enough to have random bosses and zones. They also added this more fatal type of RNG which causes runs to become unfun or a slog.

Card games inherently have a random component to them and that is all well and good. How the power generating starter cards act though is as an unnecessary RNG component which compound the RNG factor in the most unfun way possible.