What does using Charged Soul Gems to resurrect the Vestige imply?

ArchMikem

Another Shower Thought. The player uses Charged Soul Gems to revive (or resurrect others) the Vestige after being "killed/dying". A Soul Gem is a crystal that contains the Soul of another creature or being, and the animation of reviving another player depicts the power, or contents of that Soul Gem being infused into the Vestige. That would imply the Soul within the Gem is being transferred into the Vestige.

Now we know the Vestige, prior to winning our Soul back from Molag Bal, is essentially an empty vessel. Our body was formed from the essence of Oblivion when we were sacrificed. We're like Cadwell. We are ourselves, but our TRUE selves, our Soul, is absent. Yet every time we need to be resurrected, we used the energy from a Soul Gem, AKA, an actual Soul from another creature. And from what I know about Soul Magic, the type of Soul used matters. You can't just use the Soul of a Rabbit for something to do with complex beings like Man/Mer, so that implies the Soul Gems we use to Resurrect ourselves contains the Souls of other people.

Put it all together, and we end up with the idea that we're putting other people's Souls into our Body in order to stay alive. Are we even still the same Vestige at that point? Do we become the Soul we use to revive? Or does the Soul just contain some kind of life energy that we siphon, thus doing something akin to just discarding that person's Soul?

Soarora

It could just be that we are harvesting the energy of the soul from the soul gem, but honestly I think its a game mechanic more than it’s a lore thing. If ESO were a single player game, it probably wouldn’t have soul gem revives. Soul gems are just the most logical thing to use as a revive item.

jaekobcaed

You know, I never really thought of this. The problem with the idea that ESO soul gems have man/mer souls in them is that Oblivion tells us the only soul gems that can contain the soul of a man/mer is a black soul gem. The ones we see in ESO are most definitely not black soul gems.

I think Soarora is right on the money. As empty vessels, perhaps we're simply capable of converting the soul in the soul gem into Aetherial energy. After all, many souls end up recycled in the Dreamsleeve which implies every soul, boiled down, is just Aetherial energy. In a way, this would make us similar to the various stones that the Ayleids used to capture and channel varliance.

To use a Star Wars quote, "Luminous beings are we, not this crude matter."

In other words: the Vestige, before reclaiming their soul, is effectively a walking, talking, thinking, mini Dreamsleeve.

TX12001rwb17_ESO

Soarora wrote: »

It could just be that we are harvesting the energy of the soul from the soul gem, but honestly I think its a game mechanic more than it’s a lore thing. If ESO were a single player game, it probably wouldn’t have soul gem revives. Soul gems are just the most logical thing to use as a revive item.

Another logical choice would of been to not have any player characters actually die, just have them Knocked Out when at 0 health and reviving a player would be little more then you waking and helping them up, could of swapped Soul gems for Smelling Salts.

Because as it stands, reviving someone with the energy of a Soul implies the Vestige can cheat death and is therefore effectively Immortal, sure they may still age but that's a small problem that being a Vampire can remedy.

Amottica

We are the vestige. When we revive another player, we are not reviving the vestige.

Even then, when we die and are revived, then we do not really die.

Jaimeh

I also think it's more a case of a necessary game mechanic than a lore construct, but you could justify it either in terms of 1) when the Vestige dies it needs energy for their form to re-materialize from chaotic creatia which the gem provides, or 2) when a gem is used it goes to the soul cairn, and in some instances a transaction can happen beween the ideal masters and necromancers whereby the latter exchange souls for undead armies, so the vestige could be doing something similar, ie using the gems to revive instantly (since, assuming the process would be similar to daedra, it would take a long time to reform from chaotic creatia).

Soarora

TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

It could just be that we are harvesting the energy of the soul from the soul gem, but honestly I think its a game mechanic more than it’s a lore thing. If ESO were a single player game, it probably wouldn’t have soul gem revives. Soul gems are just the most logical thing to use as a revive item.

Another logical choice would of been to not have any player characters actually die, just have them Knocked Out when at 0 health and reviving a player would be little more then you waking and helping them up, could of swapped Soul gems for Smelling Salts.

Because as it stands, reviving someone with the energy of a Soul implies the Vestige can cheat death and is therefore effectively Immortal, sure they may still age but that's a small problem that being a Vampire can remedy.

Then how would you revive as a solo player? Only teleporting to wayshrines? That’d be a massive QOL loss. Soul gems are just thematically appropriate methinks.

On the lore of the Vestige, I do think they are immortal, I just don’t think soul gems are an intended lore thing, more of a fitting item to use. You can headcanon whatever you want though, and of course, I can be wrong.

Molag Bal says something about revenge, or mentions his hold on you as technically one of his shriven, or something rather. So I headcanon when the Vestige actually dies, they must reincarnate the same as any Daedra in the chaotic creatia of Coldharbour and fight their way back out.

WhiteCoatSyndrome

ArchMikem wrote: »

Put it all together, and we end up with the idea that we're putting other people's Souls into our Body in order to stay alive. Are we even still the same Vestige at that point? Do we become the Soul we use to revive? Or does the Soul just contain some kind of life energy that we siphon, thus doing something akin to just discarding that person's Soul?

The way I interpret it is that the soul has different parts, and the animus or what one thinks of as the person is like the outer shell of a nut, with the energy used to enchant armor, recharge weapons and of course resurrect being the meat of the nut. When the gem is used, the energy is expended towards whatever purpose and the animus gets sent off to the Soul Cairn (or, during the whole Planemeld thing, Coldharbour).

SeaGtGruff

Maybe black soul gems are the only kind that can hold actual souls-- that is, personalities as well as life essence-- and regular soul gems can only hold life energy, not actual souls.

I can think of only one quest where we've ever seen that a soul gem can hold an actual personality, as opposed to merely the life energy of a creature or person, and that was Azura's Star in Skyrim, which definitely wasn't your average soul gem.

In Daggerfall we are frequently called upon to destroy a runaway atronach, which word on the street says (of the one created by the Mages Guild, as opposed to the one created by the Viscount's melonhead of a son) was created using the soul of the ruler's brother. When we locate the atronach, it says it would rather die than go back to the Mages Guild, which suggests that it's able to reason for itself, in addition to having feelings, although there's no explicit indication that it still has any memories of [i.e., belonging to] the ruler's brother.

Trejgon

TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »

Because as it stands, reviving someone with the energy of a Soul implies the Vestige can cheat death and is therefore effectively Immortal, sure they may still age but that's a small problem that being a Vampire can remedy.

Vestige is effectively immortal - anytime they die, they reform new body from azure plasm. That is even aknowledged in the Covenant base game story, where leader of imperial forces specifically researches and tailor a trap for Vestige to stop us from interfeering with her plans.

WhiteCoatSyndrome

SeaGtGruff wrote: »

I can think of only one quest where we've ever seen that a soul gem can hold an actual personality, as opposed to merely the life energy of a creature or person, and that was Azura's Star in Skyrim, which definitely wasn't your average soul gem.

Sotha Sil used black soul gems on the Saints he put into the giant robot bodies in Asylum Sanctorium, they definitely still have their personalities. Terari accomplished something similar.

jaekobcaed

We also have to think about the possibility that there are other sorts of gems that can store Aetherial energy. After all, until ESO, we really didn't know about all of the meteoric glass crystal types. We basically only knew of welkynd and varla stones, but now we have skyshards, culanda, vakka, etc. It wouldn't be out of the realm of possibility that there are other types of soul gems aside from standard and black soul gems. Magic is always evolving on Nirn so I think it could be entirely possible that a lost form of soul magic could have existed at one point.

Valpro

I also keep in mind that resurrection outright might be possible because I've seen the hag ravens do some interesting stuff on Briar Hearts for, what effectively amounts to full resurrection and I'm not talking the initial process.

You could kill a winterborne and the Hagraven will resurrect them, and even if the Hag Raven dies, the winterborne Briar Heart will still be around. I'm not exactly sure what in the vestige would have the place of the Briar Heart, but it is something worth Entertaining in a conversation like this, especially when daedra a powerful as Molag Bal involved

Valpro

I forget whether winter born quest line is, by the way

Syldras

WhiteCoatSyndrome wrote: »

Sotha Sil used black soul gems on the Saints he put into the giant robot bodies in Asylum Sanctorium, they definitely still have their personalities. Terari accomplished something similar.

Sil probably also soultrapped his sister who was killed during the invasion of Ald Sotha. Her plaque in the memorial garden reads "A soul that deserved transcendence." and factotum's idle dialogue (starting with "Dreaming...") seems to contain her memories, including fragments like "Burning tapestry. Screaming." and "Collapsed roof. Crushed child." It was probably an early attempt where her memories are preserved or transferred, but there is no consciousness.

Sinlar

If you consider the vestige as an Anuic entity within a Padomaic form.
Then the soul gem could be viewed as a catalyst to initiate and accelerate the reformation process via the gem's stored Anuic energy.

MasterSpatula

Man, the bigger question is why and how do Soul Gems revive our companions?

TX12001rwb17_ESO

MasterSpatula wrote: »

Man, the bigger question is why and how do Soul Gems revive our companions?

Soul Magic, same reason you can revive after you get your Soul Back.

The Vestige can not only resurrect themselves but they can resurrect others with this magic as well.

Nestor

The only way I can think about it in game without diving into Morality, MetaPhysics, Biology, Chemistry, Forensics and several other ic's y's and ism's is to go about it this way.

Players are never Killed in the game, just rendered Mostly Dead. The Soul Gem contains Life Force that restarts the body and allows us to play on.

ajkb78

TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

It could just be that we are harvesting the energy of the soul from the soul gem, but honestly I think its a game mechanic more than it’s a lore thing. If ESO were a single player game, it probably wouldn’t have soul gem revives. Soul gems are just the most logical thing to use as a revive item.

Another logical choice would of been to not have any player characters actually die, just have them Knocked Out when at 0 health and reviving a player would be little more then you waking and helping them up, could of swapped Soul gems for Smelling Salts.

Because as it stands, reviving someone with the energy of a Soul implies the Vestige can cheat death and is therefore effectively Immortal, sure they may still age but that's a small problem that being a Vampire can remedy.

The vestige *is* immortal. At least once they've been through the Wailing Prison quest. They are killed and become a soul shriven, in a body made of daedric creatia. If anything, you could argue the post-Wailing Maw vestige is more daedra than mortal, although their body resembles their former mortal body. Plenty of NPCs point out that the vestige is different, or highlight that he doesn't have a soul. I see the soul gem resurrection mechanic as merely providing an energy source to hasten the usual daedric reformation process. Even once the vestige gets their soul back from Molag Bal at the end of the main quest, their body is still essentially daedric, so the same reformation mechanic seems reasonable in the chronologically later DLC.

This also helps my personal meta-RP wherein my Skyrim character is as close to a clone of my ESO main as I could make - my own backstory is that they are the same character, now bound to an eternal cycle of heroism, heroic death and eventual reformation into the next hero Nirn needs.

FabresFour

What makes the Vestige "special power" is the mixture of Oblivion/Chaotic Creatia energy with Aetherius energy, and they can only stay in Tamriel because the Prophet imbues it with Aetherius energy, and souls are essentially made of Aetherius energy. .. Well, we can conclude that they comes back to life with Soul Gems because the mixture of energies brings they back, right?

At least I always interpreted it that way.

Amottica

ArchMikem wrote: »

Another Shower Thought. The player uses Charged Soul Gems to revive (or resurrect others) the Vestige after being "killed/dying".

Since the game was released, there have been many occurrences where a player has revived another player with a soul gem. Never was that other player the Vestige. NEVER.

RaddlemanNumber7

Seeing as ESO doesn't follow TES Lore on soul gems I just treat this as a bit of meaningless game mechanics.

Pelanora

Amottica wrote: »

ArchMikem wrote: »

Another Shower Thought. The player uses Charged Soul Gems to revive (or resurrect others) the Vestige after being "killed/dying".

Since the game was released, there have been many occurrences where a player has revived another player with a soul gem. Never was that other player the Vestige. NEVER.

But every player in the game is the vestige, until they have done that part of the game, and get their soul back. There's thousands of vestiges. You rez another, at the right point in their game, that's saving a vestige to go on and in the end defeat molag B.

This is the paradox of an mmo. There's only one vestige in your game, but thousands of gamers each being a vestige, in your game.

Amottica

Pelanora wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

ArchMikem wrote: »

Another Shower Thought. The player uses Charged Soul Gems to revive (or resurrect others) the Vestige after being "killed/dying".

Since the game was released, there have been many occurrences where a player has revived another player with a soul gem. Never was that other player the Vestige. NEVER.

But every player in the game is the vestige, until they have done that part of the game, and get their soul back. There's thousands of vestiges. You rez another, at the right point in their game, that's saving a vestige to go on and in the end defeat molag B.

This is the paradox of an mmo. There's only one vestige in your game, but thousands of gamers each being a vestige, in your game.

Not really. In each of our stories, there is only one Vestige. That is our character. That is how the story is designed and intended. So every other player character in the game is just another character, not a Vestige.

No paradox.

Pelanora

I disagree. They're not "other characters" when we know they're playing the Vestige character, and they are experiencing same things our Vestige character is.

The only difference is we can't experience their story, but we can see them in our game. That's not enough to say they're not also playing the Vestige in our game-. just not in our experience of that story.

Amottica

Pelanora wrote: »

I disagree. They're not "other characters" when we know they're playing the Vestige character, and they are experiencing same things our Vestige character is.

The only difference is we can't experience their story, but we can see them in our game. That's not enough to say they're not also playing the Vestige in our game-. just not in our experience of that story.

I merely pointed out the reality of the game's design as it is intended by the developers. This is also the standard for MMORPGs.

If someone wants to that everyone is the same hero who defeated the great evil in the world, then so be it for their world. They are entitled to view the game as they wish.

Pelanora

Amottica wrote: »

Pelanora wrote: »

I disagree. They're not "other characters" when we know they're playing the Vestige character, and they are experiencing same things our Vestige character is.

The only difference is we can't experience their story, but we can see them in our game. That's not enough to say they're not also playing the Vestige in our game-. just not in our experience of that story.

I merely pointed out the reality of the game's design as it is intended by the developers. This is also the standard for MMORPGs.

Source?

Amottica

Pelanora wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

Pelanora wrote: »

I disagree. They're not "other characters" when we know they're playing the Vestige character, and they are experiencing same things our Vestige character is.

The only difference is we can't experience their story, but we can see them in our game. That's not enough to say they're not also playing the Vestige in our game-. just not in our experience of that story.

I merely pointed out the reality of the game's design as it is intended by the developers. This is also the standard for MMORPGs.

Source?

Most every MMORPG out there and the design of the game itself. It is rather obvious.

Play the game for proof. Some areas completely change after completing the story there. Group with people who have not completed the story in that area, enter it with them, and you will disappear. Only their chevrons will show.

Pelanora

So only opinion then.