hardened ward

TechMaybeHic

Dracane wrote: »

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

Dark Deal to get another 3700 healing added to it this next patch?

If only Battlespirit were not such a treacherous thing.
Check again.

I know. A total tooltip of 20k shield and 7k heal is nothing after battlespirit. And a 16-17k heal that includes 4000 resources. If only other classes had to deal with battle spirit as well! This is outrageos!

My point is that you throw around false numbers.
They should finally update tooltips in Cyrodiil, so people don't get confused.

Those are real numbers. Dark Deal with Blood magic will be about 2k higher than say, HTD outside of Cyrodiil. Hardened ward and it's heal in my screenshot where the shield is already halved and with the heal then being reduced on use without it critting will still be close to HTD if HTD crits.

This isn't even using inner light, or death dealer, or full divines/infused or a 2nd piece teainee and domihaus or something Where the sorc passives escalate the mag value even more. Still have wild hunt, sone impen, and bloodspawn on there for my preferences

It's out of line just in effective health abilities alone before even getting into ranged burst potential and evasiveness, all while also having minor protection and resolve just passively

Dracane

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

Dark Deal to get another 3700 healing added to it this next patch?

If only Battlespirit were not such a treacherous thing.
Check again.

I know. A total tooltip of 20k shield and 7k heal is nothing after battlespirit. And a 16-17k heal that includes 4000 resources. If only other classes had to deal with battle spirit as well! This is outrageos!

My point is that you throw around false numbers.
They should finally update tooltips in Cyrodiil, so people don't get confused.

Those are real numbers. Dark Deal with Blood magic will be about 2k higher than say, HTD outside of Cyrodiil. Hardened ward and it's heal in my screenshot where the shield is already halved and with the heal then being reduced on use without it critting will still be close to HTD if HTD crits.

This isn't even using inner light, or death dealer, or full divines/infused or a 2nd piece teainee and domihaus or something Where the sorc passives escalate the mag value even more. Still have wild hunt, sone impen, and bloodspawn on there for my preferences

It's out of line just in effective health abilities alone before even getting into ranged burst potential and evasiveness, all while also having minor protection and resolve just passively

Is it vile to ask if you have played Sorcerer before? The shield tooltip is right, but all other numbers are false.
This here is the actual heal Dark Exchange will do next patch. Deal+Blood Magic at 30k HP.
Deal is also a static tooltip that won't scale with anything.
Next you will probably tell me a 6k heal with a 1s cast time is overtuned or something.

xylena_lazarow

Dracane wrote: »

Deal is also a static tooltip that won't scale with anything.

Scales with crits and % healing modifiers. More reason for Sorc's kit to have major crit chance. If there's any healing change I'd want for Sorcs other than Ward reduced, it would be for one (or both) of the Surge morphs to behave like a normal HoT effect, as opposed to the weird unintuitive crit lifesteal thing they have going. That alone would make it much easier for a lot of Sorc players to stay healed, since current Surge barely heals if you don't build for it.

Dracane

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Deal is also a static tooltip that won't scale with anything.

Scales with crits and % healing modifiers. More reason for Sorc's kit to have major crit chance. If there's any healing change I'd want for Sorcs other than Ward reduced, it would be for one (or both) of the Surge morphs to behave like a normal HoT effect, as opposed to the weird unintuitive crit lifesteal thing they have going. That alone would make it much easier for a lot of Sorc players to stay healed, since current Surge barely heals if you don't build for it.

I haven't used Surge in pvp in 8 years, but it would certainly be good to be reliable for those who like it.
Just don't understand why Sorc should need so many different skills for survival when other classes are fine with one or two. Bar space is too limiting as is, with more and more skills being added to the game, or becoming attractive after buffs/reworks.

I have heard the notion uttered here that Sorc should require Ward+Vibrant Shroud+Vigor+Surge to survive. No, absolutely not. The very thought is disturbing.

SandandStars

i still dont get it

my hardened ward is 9k w battlespirit

concealed weapon hits me for 8k

guess my build is weak…

xylena_lazarow

Dracane wrote: »

I have heard the notion uttered here that Sorc should require Ward+Vibrant Shroud+Vigor+Surge to survive. No, absolutely not. The very thought is disturbing.

That's what normal PvP has looked like for a decade. You run a primary burst heal/shield, a secondary support heal/shield, and multiple HoT type effects. On MagSorc that used to look like Ward + Harness + Surge, is that really so bad? Current StamSorcs are seen running things like Ward + Vigor + Surge + Blood Craze.

It's like that on other classes too, my Arc uses Impervious + Vigor + Blood Craze + Structured Entropy. Perhaps there's an expectation that you "should" only need 1 button to survive, and that's the disconnect?

TechMaybeHic

Dracane wrote: »

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

Dark Deal to get another 3700 healing added to it this next patch?

If only Battlespirit were not such a treacherous thing.
Check again.

I know. A total tooltip of 20k shield and 7k heal is nothing after battlespirit. And a 16-17k heal that includes 4000 resources. If only other classes had to deal with battle spirit as well! This is outrageos!

My point is that you throw around false numbers.
They should finally update tooltips in Cyrodiil, so people don't get confused.

Those are real numbers. Dark Deal with Blood magic will be about 2k higher than say, HTD outside of Cyrodiil. Hardened ward and it's heal in my screenshot where the shield is already halved and with the heal then being reduced on use without it critting will still be close to HTD if HTD crits.

This isn't even using inner light, or death dealer, or full divines/infused or a 2nd piece teainee and domihaus or something Where the sorc passives escalate the mag value even more. Still have wild hunt, sone impen, and bloodspawn on there for my preferences

It's out of line just in effective health abilities alone before even getting into ranged burst potential and evasiveness, all while also having minor protection and resolve just passively

Is it vile to ask if you have played Sorcerer before? The shield tooltip is right, but all other numbers are false.
This here is the actual heal Dark Exchange will do next patch. Deal+Blood Magic at 30k HP.
Deal is also a static tooltip that won't scale with anything.
Next you will probably tell me a 6k heal with a 1s cast time is overtuned or something.

You get just over 6k there. HTD with a build similar to the sorc I posted tooltips of will have a tooltip of around 15k. What do you suppose 55% off 15k is? Its 6750. But I question the scaling statement. My tooltip of



Dark deal fly text



Blood magic fly text


All unbuffed, for whatever that would give me. Im just using a laptop on the side rather than my PC and GUI and stuff all messed up

Dracane

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

I have heard the notion uttered here that Sorc should require Ward+Vibrant Shroud+Vigor+Surge to survive. No, absolutely not. The very thought is disturbing.

That's what normal PvP has looked like for a decade. You run a primary burst heal/shield, a secondary support heal/shield, and multiple HoT type effects. On MagSorc that used to look like Ward + Harness + Surge, is that really so bad? Current StamSorcs are seen running things like Ward + Vigor + Surge + Blood Craze.

It's like that on other classes too, my Arc uses Impervious + Vigor + Blood Craze + Structured Entropy. Perhaps there's an expectation that you "should" only need 1 button to survive, and that's the disconnect?

Structured Entropy and Blood Craze are not heals.
The disconnect is that you see these skills on the same level as a skill that just sits on your bar for healing and nothing else.

Blood craze is a strong spammable damage skill with one of the strongest ability altering weapons to it.
And Entropy is a dot that just happens to also heal you and give you major sorcery. This in itself already makes it a more desirable skill to Surge, in my eyes.

Those skills are not dedicated survival skills, and that's the problem. In your distopian dream, you envision a world where Sorc has 4 slots occupied by skills that do nothing other than heal; whilst offering minimal buff utility. Goodness.

Dracane

I will now demand that hardened ward lashes out against enemies like the Arcanist ward does, so that it is also offensive and defensive in one.
I demand now that Surge adds extra shock damage to my attacks so it also both buffs and heals me + dot damage like entropy.

Until this is not met, I do not want to hear ridiculous things such as Blood Craze be published and sold as a healing skill.

xylena_lazarow

Dracane wrote: »

In your distopian dream, you envision a world where Sorc has

Ward + 1 other active skill, how dystopian!

Seriously it can be Ward + Harness, Ward + Vigor, Ward + Shroud, on my own Sorc I've even been doing it with Ward + Bone Shield lol. But if you go full max mag, it's just Ward. If you're not gonna count Blood Craze then Surge doesn't count either because it's a passive heal attached to a mandatory offensive buff.

Dracane

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

In your distopian dream, you envision a world where Sorc has

Ward + 1 other active skill, how dystopian!

Seriously it can be Ward + Harness, Ward + Vigor, Ward + Shroud, on my own Sorc I've even been doing it with Ward + Bone Shield lol. But if you go full max mag, it's just Ward. If you're not gonna count Blood Craze then Surge doesn't count either because it's a passive heal attached to a mandatory offensive buff.

Surge is neither one or the other. It gives me a buff I can get from either potions (and I do in pvp) or from Entropy, which also deals a good dot, and gives me more interesting passives for slotting it. I used to run Entropy for a long time before they deleted Empower for pvp. Surge just sits there for 33s and might heal me sometimes. Nah, I rather slot something that brings me further in life and just let the potions handle it. We have to sip detection potions non stop anyways.

Vibrant Shroud and Vigor are also just raw heals that give you nothing in terms of offense. Having one of those raw heals is okay; everyone does. But you say yourself that the rest is bolstered, typically, by skills that are part damage and part healing, which makes them much less of a sacrifice, if any at all.

Sorc has a raw survival skill with Ward, and could combine it with another skill that is part offense and defense. Then we could truly talk about equality, because that is how most other builds do it too. Stamsorc has Blood Craze, so that is covered.
Magsorc has nothing else that truly combines offense and defense as of now.

xylena_lazarow

Dracane wrote: »

Magsorc has nothing else that truly combines offense and defense as of now.

Um. STREAK???

Dracane

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Magsorc has nothing else that truly combines offense and defense as of now.

Um. STREAK???

So Ward and Streak you say to survive. Great, then we are set and can quit the musing of needing 4 dedicated skills to survive.

Dracane

Come to think of it, this isn't unlike Nightblade at all.

Main burst defense: Ward - Healthy Offering
Elusiveness skill: Streak - Cloak
Off heal and sustain skill: Dark Exchange (has a cast time) - Siphoning Attacks (passive healing and sustain)

I see no reason why Sorc should need more than other classes.

xylena_lazarow

Dracane wrote: »

Come to think of it, this isn't unlike Nightblade at all.

NB also runs Vigor and Path

xylena_lazarow

SandandStars wrote: »

i still dont get it. my hardened ward is 9k w battlespirit. concealed weapon hits me for 8k. guess my build is weak…

For MagSorc 9k is an extremely low Ward, as you can get around 8k on uninvested StamSorc.

Turtle_Bot

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

Dark Deal to get another 3700 healing added to it this next patch?

If only Battlespirit were not such a treacherous thing.
Check again.

I know. A total tooltip of 20k shield and 7k heal is nothing after battlespirit. And a 16-17k heal that includes 4000 resources. If only other classes had to deal with battle spirit as well! This is outrageos!

My point is that you throw around false numbers.
They should finally update tooltips in Cyrodiil, so people don't get confused.

Those are real numbers. Dark Deal with Blood magic will be about 2k higher than say, HTD outside of Cyrodiil. Hardened ward and it's heal in my screenshot where the shield is already halved and with the heal then being reduced on use without it critting will still be close to HTD if HTD crits.

This isn't even using inner light, or death dealer, or full divines/infused or a 2nd piece teainee and domihaus or something Where the sorc passives escalate the mag value even more. Still have wild hunt, sone impen, and bloodspawn on there for my preferences

It's out of line just in effective health abilities alone before even getting into ranged burst potential and evasiveness, all while also having minor protection and resolve just passively

Is it vile to ask if you have played Sorcerer before? The shield tooltip is right, but all other numbers are false.
This here is the actual heal Dark Exchange will do next patch. Deal+Blood Magic at 30k HP.
Deal is also a static tooltip that won't scale with anything.
Next you will probably tell me a 6k heal with a 1s cast time is overtuned or something.

You get just over 6k there. HTD with a build similar to the sorc I posted tooltips of will have a tooltip of around 15k. What do you suppose 55% off 15k is? Its 6750. But I question the scaling statement. My tooltip of



Dark deal fly text



Blood magic fly text

All unbuffed, for whatever that would give me. Im just using a laptop on the side rather than my PC and GUI and stuff all messed up

You are showing a BUFFED dark conversion heal that includes the +20% "near a keep" bonus to healing. So it's NOT "unbuffed" as you falsely claim. It is buffed by the strongest single buff (of very few that actually applies to that ability) in the game.

NOTE: The entire base area (everything behind the gate) counts as being near a keep for the +20% healing bonus, including that exact spot where you are "testing" this heal.

The blood magic proc also looks like you got a crit heal (or you have other hidden stats buffing the size of your heal, such as CP, being near a keep, resto passives, etc), since blood magic tooltips for ~3-3.5k at 30k health. You know what a 55% reduction of 3.5k gives you? 1575. Your blood magic heal of 2729 is 73% higher than what it should be healing you for, i.e. you got a crit heal with bonus modifiers being applied.

If you're going to throw numbers out to claim things, then at least do the bare minimum QC to ensure that they are at least somewhat correct and not being massively overinflated by things like crits or other large modifiers...

Turtle_Bot

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Come to think of it, this isn't unlike Nightblade at all.

NB also runs Vigor and Path

Then lets correct properly it shall we?

Dracane wrote: »

Come to think of it, this isn't unlike Nightblade at all.

Main burst defense: Ward - Healthy Offering
Elusiveness skill: Streak - Cloak
Off heal and sustain skill: Dark Exchange (has a cast time) - Siphoning Attacks (passive healing and sustain) Vigor (also grants mitigation)
Passive tertiary heal and/or buff: Bound aegis (passive buff to ward and mitigation) - Siphoning Attacks (passive healing and sustain, with optional burst sustain)
Speed and armor buff: Boundless storm (basically just speed and armor since it can't hit melee attackers) - path (speed, healing, armor buff (from passives) as well as more sustain

I see no reason why Sorc should need more than other classes.

Not too dissimilar to a NB at all TBF (not that NB is a good example of balance).
5 bar slots, 4 of which require activating, the remaining 1 is essentially passive but has niche uses when activated.

Looks very much like NB to me when we look at it properly.

TechMaybeHic

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

Dark Deal to get another 3700 healing added to it this next patch?

If only Battlespirit were not such a treacherous thing.
Check again.

I know. A total tooltip of 20k shield and 7k heal is nothing after battlespirit. And a 16-17k heal that includes 4000 resources. If only other classes had to deal with battle spirit as well! This is outrageos!

My point is that you throw around false numbers.
They should finally update tooltips in Cyrodiil, so people don't get confused.

Those are real numbers. Dark Deal with Blood magic will be about 2k higher than say, HTD outside of Cyrodiil. Hardened ward and it's heal in my screenshot where the shield is already halved and with the heal then being reduced on use without it critting will still be close to HTD if HTD crits.

This isn't even using inner light, or death dealer, or full divines/infused or a 2nd piece teainee and domihaus or something Where the sorc passives escalate the mag value even more. Still have wild hunt, sone impen, and bloodspawn on there for my preferences

It's out of line just in effective health abilities alone before even getting into ranged burst potential and evasiveness, all while also having minor protection and resolve just passively

Is it vile to ask if you have played Sorcerer before? The shield tooltip is right, but all other numbers are false.
This here is the actual heal Dark Exchange will do next patch. Deal+Blood Magic at 30k HP.
Deal is also a static tooltip that won't scale with anything.
Next you will probably tell me a 6k heal with a 1s cast time is overtuned or something.

You get just over 6k there. HTD with a build similar to the sorc I posted tooltips of will have a tooltip of around 15k. What do you suppose 55% off 15k is? Its 6750. But I question the scaling statement. My tooltip of



Dark deal fly text



Blood magic fly text

All unbuffed, for whatever that would give me. Im just using a laptop on the side rather than my PC and GUI and stuff all messed up

You are showing a BUFFED dark conversion heal that includes the +20% "near a keep" bonus to healing. So it's NOT "unbuffed" as you falsely claim. It is buffed by the strongest single buff (of very few that actually applies to that ability) in the game.

NOTE: The entire base area (everything behind the gate) counts as being near a keep for the +20% healing bonus, including that exact spot where you are "testing" this heal.

The blood magic proc also looks like you got a crit heal (or you have other hidden stats buffing the size of your heal, such as CP, being near a keep, resto passives, etc), since blood magic tooltips for ~3-3.5k at 30k health. You know what a 55% reduction of 3.5k gives you? 1575. Your blood magic heal of 2729 is 73% higher than what it should be healing you for, i.e. you got a crit heal with bonus modifiers being applied.

If you're going to throw numbers out to claim things, then at least do the bare minimum QC to ensure that they are at least somewhat correct and not being massively overinflated by things like crits or other large modifiers...

The crit is fair but unbuffed is true as far as literally no active buffs like vitality or mending. Most fights are around keeps in Cyrodiil, and I wasn't showing the values specifically anyway. I was disputing the statement that they don't scale. They most certainly do as you inadvertently point out in your complaint

And still missing the point also that the total value rivals HTD, an ability of what used to be considered a healing class, and then to have hardened ward with a heal on top of that.

Turtle_Bot

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

Dark Deal to get another 3700 healing added to it this next patch?

If only Battlespirit were not such a treacherous thing.
Check again.

I know. A total tooltip of 20k shield and 7k heal is nothing after battlespirit. And a 16-17k heal that includes 4000 resources. If only other classes had to deal with battle spirit as well! This is outrageos!

My point is that you throw around false numbers.
They should finally update tooltips in Cyrodiil, so people don't get confused.

Those are real numbers. Dark Deal with Blood magic will be about 2k higher than say, HTD outside of Cyrodiil. Hardened ward and it's heal in my screenshot where the shield is already halved and with the heal then being reduced on use without it critting will still be close to HTD if HTD crits.

This isn't even using inner light, or death dealer, or full divines/infused or a 2nd piece teainee and domihaus or something Where the sorc passives escalate the mag value even more. Still have wild hunt, sone impen, and bloodspawn on there for my preferences

It's out of line just in effective health abilities alone before even getting into ranged burst potential and evasiveness, all while also having minor protection and resolve just passively

Is it vile to ask if you have played Sorcerer before? The shield tooltip is right, but all other numbers are false.
This here is the actual heal Dark Exchange will do next patch. Deal+Blood Magic at 30k HP.
Deal is also a static tooltip that won't scale with anything.
Next you will probably tell me a 6k heal with a 1s cast time is overtuned or something.

You get just over 6k there. HTD with a build similar to the sorc I posted tooltips of will have a tooltip of around 15k. What do you suppose 55% off 15k is? Its 6750. But I question the scaling statement. My tooltip of



Dark deal fly text



Blood magic fly text

All unbuffed, for whatever that would give me. Im just using a laptop on the side rather than my PC and GUI and stuff all messed up

You are showing a BUFFED dark conversion heal that includes the +20% "near a keep" bonus to healing. So it's NOT "unbuffed" as you falsely claim. It is buffed by the strongest single buff (of very few that actually applies to that ability) in the game.

NOTE: The entire base area (everything behind the gate) counts as being near a keep for the +20% healing bonus, including that exact spot where you are "testing" this heal.

The blood magic proc also looks like you got a crit heal (or you have other hidden stats buffing the size of your heal, such as CP, being near a keep, resto passives, etc), since blood magic tooltips for ~3-3.5k at 30k health. You know what a 55% reduction of 3.5k gives you? 1575. Your blood magic heal of 2729 is 73% higher than what it should be healing you for, i.e. you got a crit heal with bonus modifiers being applied.

If you're going to throw numbers out to claim things, then at least do the bare minimum QC to ensure that they are at least somewhat correct and not being massively overinflated by things like crits or other large modifiers...

The crit is fair but unbuffed is true as far as literally no active buffs like vitality or mending. Most fights are around keeps in Cyrodiil, and I wasn't showing the values specifically anyway. I was disputing the statement that they don't scale. They most certainly do as you inadvertently point out in your complaint

And still missing the point also that the total value rivals HTD, an ability of what used to be considered a healing class, and then to have hardened ward with a heal on top of that.

Sigh...

I was never stating that it doesn't scale at all... Especially since I specifically mentioned:

It is buffed by the strongest single buff (of very few that actually applies to that ability) in the game.

Also, even you should know that Exchange does NOT scale with weapon/spell damage or health/mag/stam whereas HtD does scale with those stats as well as scaling with those same percent healing modifiers that buff/debuff exchange...

And your still missing the points that exchange has a cast time on it that prevents use of core combat mechanics as well as allowing it to be completely denied via interrupt, where as NONE of the templar heals have that downside and exchange also cannot be used to heal allies (i.e. it doesn't provide group support).

StaticWave

SandandStars wrote: »

i still dont get it

my hardened ward is 9k w battlespirit

concealed weapon hits me for 8k

guess my build is weak…

You need a better build. On my stamsorc with 36.9k HP I'm getting an 8k Ward in BG:



If you have a 9k Ward on your magsorc then that means your max mag is hovering around 38-39k. Most magsorcs run with 50k+ max mag this patch.

a_u_s_t_y

Harden ward too strong, pvp too easy… let’s all play an underpowered class that requires a lot of skill like Night blade, hardly any night blades around in pvp at the moment

TechMaybeHic

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

Dark Deal to get another 3700 healing added to it this next patch?

If only Battlespirit were not such a treacherous thing.
Check again.

I know. A total tooltip of 20k shield and 7k heal is nothing after battlespirit. And a 16-17k heal that includes 4000 resources. If only other classes had to deal with battle spirit as well! This is outrageos!

My point is that you throw around false numbers.
They should finally update tooltips in Cyrodiil, so people don't get confused.

Those are real numbers. Dark Deal with Blood magic will be about 2k higher than say, HTD outside of Cyrodiil. Hardened ward and it's heal in my screenshot where the shield is already halved and with the heal then being reduced on use without it critting will still be close to HTD if HTD crits.

This isn't even using inner light, or death dealer, or full divines/infused or a 2nd piece teainee and domihaus or something Where the sorc passives escalate the mag value even more. Still have wild hunt, sone impen, and bloodspawn on there for my preferences

It's out of line just in effective health abilities alone before even getting into ranged burst potential and evasiveness, all while also having minor protection and resolve just passively

Is it vile to ask if you have played Sorcerer before? The shield tooltip is right, but all other numbers are false.
This here is the actual heal Dark Exchange will do next patch. Deal+Blood Magic at 30k HP.
Deal is also a static tooltip that won't scale with anything.
Next you will probably tell me a 6k heal with a 1s cast time is overtuned or something.

You get just over 6k there. HTD with a build similar to the sorc I posted tooltips of will have a tooltip of around 15k. What do you suppose 55% off 15k is? Its 6750. But I question the scaling statement. My tooltip of



Dark deal fly text



Blood magic fly text

All unbuffed, for whatever that would give me. Im just using a laptop on the side rather than my PC and GUI and stuff all messed up

You are showing a BUFFED dark conversion heal that includes the +20% "near a keep" bonus to healing. So it's NOT "unbuffed" as you falsely claim. It is buffed by the strongest single buff (of very few that actually applies to that ability) in the game.

NOTE: The entire base area (everything behind the gate) counts as being near a keep for the +20% healing bonus, including that exact spot where you are "testing" this heal.

The blood magic proc also looks like you got a crit heal (or you have other hidden stats buffing the size of your heal, such as CP, being near a keep, resto passives, etc), since blood magic tooltips for ~3-3.5k at 30k health. You know what a 55% reduction of 3.5k gives you? 1575. Your blood magic heal of 2729 is 73% higher than what it should be healing you for, i.e. you got a crit heal with bonus modifiers being applied.

If you're going to throw numbers out to claim things, then at least do the bare minimum QC to ensure that they are at least somewhat correct and not being massively overinflated by things like crits or other large modifiers...

The crit is fair but unbuffed is true as far as literally no active buffs like vitality or mending. Most fights are around keeps in Cyrodiil, and I wasn't showing the values specifically anyway. I was disputing the statement that they don't scale. They most certainly do as you inadvertently point out in your complaint

And still missing the point also that the total value rivals HTD, an ability of what used to be considered a healing class, and then to have hardened ward with a heal on top of that.

Sigh...

I was never stating that it doesn't scale at all... Especially since I specifically mentioned:

It is buffed by the strongest single buff (of very few that actually applies to that ability) in the game.

Also, even you should know that Exchange does NOT scale with weapon/spell damage or health/mag/stam whereas HtD does scale with those stats as well as scaling with those same percent healing modifiers that buff/debuff exchange...

And your still missing the points that exchange has a cast time on it that prevents use of core combat mechanics as well as allowing it to be completely denied via interrupt, where as NONE of the templar heals have that downside and exchange also cannot be used to heal allies (i.e. it doesn't provide group support).

Do you come in just to argue? Protect sorc at all cost, right? I never said you stated it doesn't scale. You came in here and went after my post after it was a reply to someone else saying it doesn't.

I wasn't even going after dark Deal to begin with. I was making fun of somehow needing the heal on hardened ward because they need a heal as if anything should be attached to that high of shield value at all. Someone said those values were wrong, but they are not. Battle sprit reduces healing taken by 55% but does not reduce the tooltip value the way it does shield because it's based on reception.

Dracane

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

If you're going to throw numbers out to claim things, then at least do the bare minimum QC to ensure that they are at least somewhat correct and not being massively overinflated by things like crits or other large modifiers...

I sense a theme among those trying to blow Sorcerer out of proportions.

Dracane

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Come to think of it, this isn't unlike Nightblade at all.

NB also runs Vigor and Path

Then lets correct properly it shall we?

Dracane wrote: »

Come to think of it, this isn't unlike Nightblade at all.

Main burst defense: Ward - Healthy Offering
Elusiveness skill: Streak - Cloak
Off heal and sustain skill: Dark Exchange (has a cast time) - Siphoning Attacks (passive healing and sustain) Vigor (also grants mitigation)
Passive tertiary heal and/or buff: Bound aegis (passive buff to ward and mitigation) - Siphoning Attacks (passive healing and sustain, with optional burst sustain)
Speed and armor buff: Boundless storm (basically just speed and armor since it can't hit melee attackers) - path (speed, healing, armor buff (from passives) as well as more sustain

I see no reason why Sorc should need more than other classes.

Not too dissimilar to a NB at all TBF (not that NB is a good example of balance).
5 bar slots, 4 of which require activating, the remaining 1 is essentially passive but has niche uses when activated.

Looks very much like NB to me when we look at it properly.

I thank you for this addendrum. Your assessment is the superior one, although I consider Vigor a major defense skill the likes of Ward, Arctic Wind, Healthy Offering, Coagulating Blood etc.

Turtle_Bot

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

Do you come in just to argue? Protect sorc at all cost, right? I never said you stated it doesn't scale. You cane in here in went after my post after it was a reply to someone else saying it doesn't.

No more than everyone else comes in here to argue. Sorry, I forgot that the forums is supposed to be attack the big bad evil sorc at all cost. My bad, I'll try to remember that for next time...
Never directly said, but you heavily implied with the following statement that you "caught me" in some sort of slip up:

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

They most certainly do as you inadvertently point out in your complaint

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I wasn't even going after dark Deal to begin with. I was making fun of somehow needing the heal on hardened ward because they need a heal. Someone said those values were wrong, but they are not. Battle sprit reduces healing taken by 55% but dies not reduce the value the way it does shield

And this (bolded part) was exactly what that person you were responding to was saying.

They should finally update tooltips in Cyrodiil, so people don't get confused.

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It certainly wasn't clear that you weren't going after dark deal, because it certainly looked like you were comparing dark deal and HTD from your posts and not ward and HTD.
The following spoiler has 2 examples where it certainly looks and sounds like you are comparing HTD to dark deal/conversion instead of comparing it to ward. Hence why it seems like that is what you were doing.

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TechMaybeHic wrote: »

And a 16-17k heal that includes 4000 resources.

Note: That Conversion heal is off by 1k, Conversion caps out (with all unique PvP and named buffs active + the ST healing CP) at a 15.6k tooltip, or 45% lower than HTD tooltip caps out at (24130) with those same buffs active.

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TechMaybeHic wrote: »

Those are real numbers. Dark Deal with Blood magic will be about 2k higher than say, HTD outside of Cyrodiil.

As for Dark deal being 2k higher than HTD, I am not seeing how this would be at all possible, even on a fairly average plar build..

Here is a buffed HTD tooltip (in PvE), buffs are:
- Major + minor mending (resto back bar + plar passive)
- Major brutality/sorcery (from degen)
- Minor sorcery (plar passive)
- 1 healing CP (ST heal CP)
So nothing out of the ordinary there for plar.

Here is the tooltip for dark exchange (which has 25% more healing than dark deal), same buffs, same CP.

So for this to be true, blood magic is going to be an 8300 heal (or 10300 heal if using dark deal) on a 30k health max mag DD build.

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So, unless you meant ward in these 2 posts, in which case, yes, ward will easily be stronger than HTD when you combine its tooltip with the blood magic passive, however, ward cannot proc the blood magic passive, so I fail to see why the blood magic passive is even being mentioned at all unless it was to compare exchange to HTD.


Also, guess I'd better follow the forum rules so I'll add #nerfsorc to keep in compliance

xylena_lazarow

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

Looks very much like NB to me when we look at it properly.

Both Healthy Offering and Hardened Ward are egregiously powerful healing tools that have no business being spammed by highly mobile ranged glass cannons (that can also teleport or vanish). I don't have a problem making NB or Sorc more forgiving for casual play, but surely there is a way to do this without screwing up competitive play.

Turtle_Bot

Dracane wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Come to think of it, this isn't unlike Nightblade at all.

NB also runs Vigor and Path

Then lets correct properly it shall we?

Dracane wrote: »

Come to think of it, this isn't unlike Nightblade at all.

Main burst defense: Ward - Healthy Offering
Elusiveness skill: Streak - Cloak
Off heal and sustain skill: Dark Exchange (has a cast time) - Siphoning Attacks (passive healing and sustain) Vigor (also grants mitigation)
Passive tertiary heal and/or buff: Bound aegis (passive buff to ward and mitigation) - Siphoning Attacks (passive healing and sustain, with optional burst sustain)
Speed and armor buff: Boundless storm (basically just speed and armor since it can't hit melee attackers) - path (speed, healing, armor buff (from passives) as well as more sustain

I see no reason why Sorc should need more than other classes.

Not too dissimilar to a NB at all TBF (not that NB is a good example of balance).
5 bar slots, 4 of which require activating, the remaining 1 is essentially passive but has niche uses when activated.

Looks very much like NB to me when we look at it properly.

I thank you for this addendrum. Your assessment is the superior one, although I consider Vigor a major defense skill the likes of Ward, Arctic Wind, Healthy Offering, Coagulating Blood etc.

Vigor is a unique heal (in particular resolving vigor), as it is technically a HoT, so I still classify it as one (as do most others), but it is very bursty by design with its short duration and high heal amount.

That's why I had it in the slot with dark exchange (both are a best used as a secondary heal). Aegis and siphoning line up because they are both basically just slotted passives. The sustain for sorc is in dark exchange, the sustain for NB is across path and siphoning (both passive and active siphoning) and they roughly equal out in terms of potential sustain value over ~10-15s.

Dracane

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Come to think of it, this isn't unlike Nightblade at all.

NB also runs Vigor and Path

Then lets correct properly it shall we?

Dracane wrote: »

Come to think of it, this isn't unlike Nightblade at all.

Main burst defense: Ward - Healthy Offering
Elusiveness skill: Streak - Cloak
Off heal and sustain skill: Dark Exchange (has a cast time) - Siphoning Attacks (passive healing and sustain) Vigor (also grants mitigation)
Passive tertiary heal and/or buff: Bound aegis (passive buff to ward and mitigation) - Siphoning Attacks (passive healing and sustain, with optional burst sustain)
Speed and armor buff: Boundless storm (basically just speed and armor since it can't hit melee attackers) - path (speed, healing, armor buff (from passives) as well as more sustain

I see no reason why Sorc should need more than other classes.

Not too dissimilar to a NB at all TBF (not that NB is a good example of balance).
5 bar slots, 4 of which require activating, the remaining 1 is essentially passive but has niche uses when activated.

Looks very much like NB to me when we look at it properly.

I thank you for this addendrum. Your assessment is the superior one, although I consider Vigor a major defense skill the likes of Ward, Arctic Wind, Healthy Offering, Coagulating Blood etc.

Vigor is a unique heal (in particular resolving vigor), as it is technically a HoT, so I still classify it as one (as do most others), but it is very bursty by design with its short duration and high heal amount.

That's why I had it in the slot with dark exchange (both are a best used as a secondary heal). Aegis and siphoning line up because they are both basically just slotted passives. The sustain for sorc is in dark exchange, the sustain for NB is across path and siphoning (both passive and active siphoning) and they roughly equal out in terms of potential sustain value over ~10-15s.

I explained poorly. Yes, it is a HoT. I said yesterday that I consider skills like Ward, Vigor, Coagulating Blood etc. major survival skills whose primary job is to carry the bulk of your tankiness. You sacrifice damage to have them.

This was in response to Xylena counting Blood Craze as a healing skill, even though it is a very powerful offensive skill that just happens to also lend healing. Skills that also deal damage, and/or offer powerful offensive buffs can hardly be considered a sacrifice the likes of Vigor and Vibrant Shroud, which sit on your bar for no other purpose than keeping you alive.

Turtle_Bot

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

Looks very much like NB to me when we look at it properly.

Both Healthy Offering and Hardened Ward are egregiously powerful healing tools that have no business being spammed by highly mobile ranged glass cannons (that can also teleport or vanish). I don't have a problem making NB or Sorc more forgiving for casual play, but surely there is a way to do this without screwing up competitive play.

This we both agree on, which is why I think a HoT instead of a burst heal on ward should be tested to see if that brings it more in line.

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

More reason for Sorc's kit to have major crit chance. If there's any healing change I'd want for Sorcs other than Ward reduced, it would be for one (or both) of the Surge morphs to behave like a normal HoT effect, as opposed to the weird unintuitive crit lifesteal thing they have going. That alone would make it much easier for a lot of Sorc players to stay healed, since current Surge barely heals if you don't build for it.

This has been something else I (and others) have suggested as well. Power surge (other morph of crit surge) barely sees any use at all outside of a few super niche sorc healer builds as crit surge is just objectively better (that 3s cooldown on top of requiring a crit heal to proc it is horrible), so why not make it into something more reliable.