[FEEDBACK] Regarding the Bow skill Vault

Turtle_Bot

@ZOS_Kevin @ZOS_RichLambert @ZOS_GinaBruno if you could pass this feedback along to the team, that would be awesome.

First off, I want to say that this ability is one of the most fun to use skills I've tested in a very long time, so the design of Vault is definitely a home run in that aspect.

The issue I have with this ability in particular is the following:
It does not have a ramping cost like all the other "mobility"/"teleport" abilities/mechanics in ESO such as streak, mist form and roll dodge.

Vault is a very strong ability already thanks to the following utility that it offers:

• teleport (on par with streak)
• heal (stamina heal)
• immobilize (AoE)
• snare (AoE)
• snare/immovability removal
• reduction in roll dodge ramping cost + 50% fall damage mitigation (wood elf with this will be able to survive back-flipping off some absurdly tall cliffs)
• MAJOR evasion (20% is a lot of mitigation to get, especially on a mobility tool)
• minor expedition (this is supposed to be a rare buff)

But, while this utility could be considered somewhat balanced on a standardized "teleport" ability such as mist form that has a ramping cost preventing it being endlessly spammed, what raises this amount of utility, mobility and flexibility on Vault to unbalanced levels is when it is combined with no ramping cost, allowing it to be spammed endlessly while never draining resources.

A couple of particularly notable combinations for this include:

- Immobilize + dodge roll cost reduction/fall damage mitigation + evasion
This makes the caster very mobile as well as being very disruptive (the same as streak) while also granting 20% mitigation to AoE as well as cost reduction on roll dodge and granting environmental (fall) damage mitigation.

- Heal + snare/immobilize removal + expedition
This makes the kiting tool also into a heal while also removing any soft CC and granting even more speed making this one of the best escape tools possible, all in 1 ability.

Due to there not being a ramping cost on vault (which is essentially a "Stamina Streak"), it is so strong that sorc mains are even considering dropping streak for it or simply combining it with streak for unmatched mobility that will never drain resources.

This won't be exclusive to sorcs either, NB will also be able to abuse the fact that this does not have a ramping cost and combine what is essentially streak + their native cloak into 1 extremely bar space efficient defensive kit that will also never drain resources because neither cloak nor vault has a ramping cost and as such will make them even harder to find let alone catch or kill.

Minor expedition is a big component of why this ability without a ramping cost will be so strong for the remaining 5 classes, because where as before it was next to impossible to stack both major + minor expedition on the other classes, with this skill all classes will have easy access to both of these buffs in 1 skill slot (major expedition is passively available on bow when you dodge roll) that is also a teleport + potential heal/CC/pseudo cleanse.
So all classes will have extremely easy access to both expedition buffs as well as a mobility tool that is (currently) better than streak due to no ramping cost.

Another benefit to this ability over its equivalents that should not be overlooked is:

Because it moves the caster backwards for its teleport while keeping the camera facing forwards, it keeps the enemy target inside the field of view (on the screen) allowing for the caster to unload a burst combo much faster than when using an equivalent teleport ability such as streak/mist form that requires the caster to rotate their field of view to lock back onto the target (outside of the skill intensive positioning tricks those 2 abilities have). This is much more significant for console players since their camera rotations are slower than PC players using mouse and keyboard, but every millisecond counts in PvP where the action is so fast.

This isn't to say that Vault needs a complete redesign (because it is super fun to use) or that any of the effects need nerfing/adjusting (except maybe minor expedition could do with a rethink), but it should 100% have a ramping cost, the same as streak, mist form and roll dodge because it is a mobility tool, just like those abilities and vault is very much on par with those abilities in terms of effects for mobility and kiting/disrupting/escaping enemies and it has a lot of customizable utility that can be added to it.

Sheuib

It is only 15 meters vs 22 meters like all the other mobility tools. If an escalating cost is added than the range needs to match. However, I would rather it stay at the 15 meters and not have an escalating cost. You will not be able to escape from people with other mobility tools because of the shorter range.

Minor expedition is far from rare. I think every class has access to it from some sort of ability. Even templar has a burst AOE heal that includes minor expedition for everyone.

Please keep vault as is.

Turtle_Bot

Sheuib wrote: »

It is only 15 meters vs 22 meters like all the other mobility tools. If an escalating cost is added than the range needs to match. However, I would rather it stay at the 15 meters and not have an escalating cost. You will not be able to escape from people with other mobility tools because of the shorter range.

Minor expedition is far from rare. I think every class has access to it from some sort of ability. Even templar has a burst AOE heal that includes minor expedition for everyone.

Please keep vault as is.

The other mobility tools had their range reduced to 15m a long time ago so a ramping cost is definitely warranted.

Minor expedition is rare. The only class sources for it are as follows:
- NB has it as a passive on concealed.
- Sorc has it on 1 morph of lightning form
- Plar has it on 1 morph of their AoE burst heal (that nobody uses)

The only global source of minor expedition is Charging Maneuver from Assault line and that costs 6k+ stamina for only those 2 expedition buffs, no other effects.

All other sources of expedition are for Major expedition.

FYI, I'm not asking for the ability to be changed, I am asking for it to have a ramping cost so it cannot be spammed endlessly.

LunaFlora

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

Sheuib wrote: »

It is only 15 meters vs 22 meters like all the other mobility tools. If an escalating cost is added than the range needs to match. However, I would rather it stay at the 15 meters and not have an escalating cost. You will not be able to escape from people with other mobility tools because of the shorter range.

Minor expedition is far from rare. I think every class has access to it from some sort of ability. Even templar has a burst AOE heal that includes minor expedition for everyone.

Please keep vault as is.

The other mobility tools had their range reduced to 15m a long time ago so a ramping cost is definitely warranted.

Minor expedition is rare. The only class sources for it are as follows:
- NB has it as a passive on concealed.
- Sorc has it on 1 morph of lightning form
- Plar has it on 1 morph of their AoE burst heal (that nobody uses)

The only global source of minor expedition is Charging Maneuver from Assault line and that costs 6k+ stamina for only those 2 expedition buffs, no other effects.

All other sources of expedition are for Major expedition.

FYI, I'm not asking for the ability to be changed, I am asking for it to have a ramping cost so it cannot be spammed endlessly.

the Jailbreaker set also gives it

Seraphayel

Should ramp up in cost, would solve all the underlying problems. But there should be some trade off for that, either the range increased or something else. Otherwise the abuse of this ability as some kind of Streak will be too prevalent.

Sheuib

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

Sheuib wrote: »

It is only 15 meters vs 22 meters like all the other mobility tools. If an escalating cost is added than the range needs to match. However, I would rather it stay at the 15 meters and not have an escalating cost. You will not be able to escape from people with other mobility tools because of the shorter range.

Minor expedition is far from rare. I think every class has access to it from some sort of ability. Even templar has a burst AOE heal that includes minor expedition for everyone.

Please keep vault as is.

The other mobility tools had their range reduced to 15m a long time ago so a ramping cost is definitely warranted.

Minor expedition is rare. The only class sources for it are as follows:
- NB has it as a passive on concealed.
- Sorc has it on 1 morph of lightning form
- Plar has it on 1 morph of their AoE burst heal (that nobody uses)

The only global source of minor expedition is Charging Maneuver from Assault line and that costs 6k+ stamina for only those 2 expedition buffs, no other effects.

All other sources of expedition are for Major expedition.

FYI, I'm not asking for the ability to be changed, I am asking for it to have a ramping cost so it cannot be spammed endlessly.

All the gap closers are 22m and that is the threat, melee with gap closers. However, if an increasing cost is found to be necessary at least leave the roll dodge stack removal the same. If you weave spam roll dodge and vault you would only have one escalating cost. And, I think that would allow the type of gameplay they are going for with this but still prevent abuse.

olsborg

Ofcourse it should have a ramping cost, and im pretty sure zos will add that in before it hits live.

MashmalloMan

There is no debate, it should have +33% cost per cast at minimum. It behaves exactly the same as streak/mist form (a bit more janky), just backwards. I think it's just a matter of time before they add it tbh.

Mayrael

Yeah this skill is going to be a problem in current state, especially when paired with Templar.



(Heal value is low because it's just pure template)

Turtle_Bot

Sheuib wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

Sheuib wrote: »

It is only 15 meters vs 22 meters like all the other mobility tools. If an escalating cost is added than the range needs to match. However, I would rather it stay at the 15 meters and not have an escalating cost. You will not be able to escape from people with other mobility tools because of the shorter range.

Minor expedition is far from rare. I think every class has access to it from some sort of ability. Even templar has a burst AOE heal that includes minor expedition for everyone.

Please keep vault as is.

The other mobility tools had their range reduced to 15m a long time ago so a ramping cost is definitely warranted.

Minor expedition is rare. The only class sources for it are as follows:
- NB has it as a passive on concealed.
- Sorc has it on 1 morph of lightning form
- Plar has it on 1 morph of their AoE burst heal (that nobody uses)

The only global source of minor expedition is Charging Maneuver from Assault line and that costs 6k+ stamina for only those 2 expedition buffs, no other effects.

All other sources of expedition are for Major expedition.

FYI, I'm not asking for the ability to be changed, I am asking for it to have a ramping cost so it cannot be spammed endlessly.

All the gap closers are 22m and that is the threat, melee with gap closers. However, if an increasing cost is found to be necessary at least leave the roll dodge stack removal the same. If you weave spam roll dodge and vault you would only have one escalating cost. And, I think that would allow the type of gameplay they are going for with this but still prevent abuse.

I'd be fine with leaving the roll dodge cost reduction remaining on it if the skill had a ramping cost, that was part of what I said in my conclusion (final paragraph).

This isn't to say that Vault needs a complete redesign (because it is super fun to use) or that any of the effects need nerfing/adjusting (except maybe minor expedition could do with a rethink), but it should 100% have a ramping cost.

Anti_Virus

Why should this get a ramping cost increase? Almost all stamina builds are melee hence you will rarely see this.

Turtle_Bot

Anti_Virus wrote: »

Why should this get a ramping cost increase? Almost all stamina builds are melee hence you will rarely see this.

Because it's a non-targeted mobility ability that has plenty of additional utility (like streak and mist form). This ability without a ramping cost is so strong as a defensive mobility tool that it will literally be everywhere in PvP and to not run it is to deliberately nerf yourself.

Stamina is also NOT only melee, bows have existed forever in this game and single player elder scrolls titles (which this skill is part of that weapon line) and they are and have always been ranged and stamina.

Sharrum

If this ends the ice staff backbar heal blocking staple we've had for the past year+ then by all means let it go live like this.

Turtle_Bot

Sharrum wrote: »

If this ends the ice staff backbar heal blocking staple we've had for the past year+ then by all means let it go live like this.

it won't, the meta will just be bow front, frost staff back which will give defensive utility on both bars.

Mayrael

Sharrum wrote: »

If this ends the ice staff backbar heal blocking staple we've had for the past year+ then by all means let it go live like this.

This will make the meta even worse. You'll have immortal players everywhere who can only be killed by ganks or Xv1 situations, because in its current form, this skill is a wet dream for all kiters. Without a gap-closer, there's no point in even starting a fight with someone who uses this skill, even if the skill has an increasing cost like streak. It will still be an incredibly powerful escape tool that will require very skillful handling.

And just to clarify, it's not just that I don't like that such a skill has appeared. I plan to use it myself, but I see how many problems its current form can cause. Before you think about how you'll use it, think about how you'll feel when someone uses it against you.

ToRelax

...it also has a magicka option.

Mayrael

ToRelax wrote: »

...it also has a magicka option.

Tbh resource type is not important ATM. Fact that we can spam it without any penalty is the biggest concern right now. Imagine you're a melee player and each time you get close to someone who uses this skill and he jumps away while rooting you at the same time. You'll spend more resources to catch him than he needs to escape. This skill can't go live without ramping cost.

Panderbander

It's time for Elder Bows Online let's goooooooooo