14 days to claim gold from guild sales?

Ruj · April 16

"Below are the updated expiration timers based on mail type:

Guild Trader Returns / Sales: 14 days"

Scenario: We have items that are listed for sale, go on vacation for 2 weeks, and return home. If the items sold on that first day... we miss out on the gold? And if we didn't sell our items, the items vanish?

14 days is too little. This change would mean we have to not post anything for sale for a while before we are on vacation and then take back our items (losing the gold deposit to list them in the guild store) before we go on vacation.

Personally, my son lives with me for two weeks and with his dad for two weeks. He only plays ESO while he is staying with me. So now I have to log into his account and claim gold/returned items for him?

Unnecessarily adding stress, and it's a decrease in sales for trading guilds.

It should be 30 days.

MashmalloMan · April 16

Ruj wrote: »

Unnecessarily adding stress, and it's a decrease in sales for trading guilds.

Your sale was still made, you just didn't collect the gold.

When we asked for Gold Sinks, this wasn't what I expected lol.

Ruj · April 16

MashmalloMan wrote: »

Ruj wrote: »

Unnecessarily adding stress, and it's a decrease in sales for trading guilds.

Your sale was still made, you just didn't collect the gold.

When we asked for Gold Sinks, this wasn't what I expected lol.

Anyone who plays casually will not want to list their items via a guild trader unless they know 100% they are able to log in before two weeks is up.

I rather keep my 500K gold item in my inventory and sell it via zone chat than list it in a guild trader when I know I don't play ESO in a hardcore mode to the point I'm logging in frequently. That is the biggest drawback for trading guilds.

Even the medium-hardcore trading guilds have a few casuals who sell BIG GOLD items and log in every once in a while. A lot of "medium" trading guilds even have 30 day inactivity policies.
Now those casual players won't be listing those BIG GOLD items anymore.

WhiteCoatSyndrome · April 16

Yeah I saw those numbers too and…not a fan. I don’t want to lose mats or gold because I took a nice long vacation.

MashmalloMan · April 16

Ruj wrote: »

MashmalloMan wrote: »

Ruj wrote: »

Unnecessarily adding stress, and it's a decrease in sales for trading guilds.

Your sale was still made, you just didn't collect the gold.

When we asked for Gold Sinks, this wasn't what I expected lol.

Not if the item is not sold!

The 14 days expiration includes returned items.

It likely won't affect seasoned sellers. They know which things will actually sell in a decent amount of time.

It's a gold sink that will affect casual players the most. Especially those who have certain living situations, travel for work, simply going on vacation, etc.

If we're looking at expired items, wouldn't it be 30 days + 14 days for 44 days? Doesn't really make sense for the 2 week vacation example you were using, but I see your point.

Ruj · April 16

MashmalloMan wrote: »

If we're looking at expired items, wouldn't it be 30 days + 14 days for 44 days? Doesn't really make sense for the 2 week vacation example you were using, but I see your point.

It is changing from 30 days to 14 days.

w002exp · April 16

I agree they need to keep it at 30 days. Respect my time, don't hold me hostage to login all of the time. When ESO starts to feel like a job (logging in just to collect a daily, or just to empty my mail) then I log out. This game is the perfect anchor that pulls me back but still allows me a month to play other new releases from time to time. Don't break that.

MashmalloMan · April 16

Ruj wrote: »

MashmalloMan wrote: »

If we're looking at expired items, wouldn't it be 30 days + 14 days for 44 days? Doesn't really make sense for the 2 week vacation example you were using, but I see your point.

It is changing from 30 days to 14 days.

Original: 30 days on trader + 30 days in mail (sold/returned)
New: 30 days on trader + 14 days in mail (sold/returned)

That is my interpretation of it because the PTS notes you're referring to are in a section about reorganizing how mail works. I was saying for sold items, the guild is still making the taxes on your sale, you're just not getting the gold. In the event of a return, you would only be gone for 14 days, not 44 days so that example doesn't really work out.

Either way, it sucks.

Wolf_Eye · April 16

Ruj wrote: »

MashmalloMan wrote: »

If we're looking at expired items, wouldn't it be 30 days + 14 days for 44 days? Doesn't really make sense for the 2 week vacation example you were using, but I see your point.

It is changing from 30 days to 14 days.

Yes, but for an item to become expired from the guild store, it has to sit in the store for 30 days without being sold. They didn't say they were changing that part.

So it is 30 days in store, plus the 14 days sitting in mail as an expired return item.

Ruj · April 16

Wolf_Eye wrote: »

So it is 30 days in store, plus the 14 days sitting in mail as an expired return item.

If you place an item for sale so that you are keeping 30/30 slots filled and that item sells overnight, that gives you roughly 2 weeks to claim the gold.

If you placed an item for sale and haven't kept track of when the 30 days to sell it are up, you could miss your opportunity to get the returned item.

Both are incentives for casual players to not sell in guild stores anymore. Not with high gold items.

I don't want to be worried/stressed out over losing my things. Maybe I just want to go play FFXIV for a month. Now I can't without making sure all my guild store slots are empty first.

Anything that incentivizes players to NOT sell via guild stores is not good for trading guilds.

MashmalloMan · April 16

Ruj wrote: »

Wolf_Eye wrote: »

So it is 30 days in store, plus the 14 days sitting in mail as an expired return item.

If you place an item for sale so that you are keeping 30/30 slots filled and that item sells overnight, that gives you roughly 2 weeks to claim the gold.

If you placed an item for sale and haven't kept track of when the 30 days to sell it are up, you could miss your opportunity to get the returned item.

Both are incentives for casual players to not sell in guild stores anymore. Not with high gold items.

I don't want to be worried/stressed out over losing my things. Maybe I just want to go play FFXIV for a month. Now I can't without making sure all my guild store slots are empty first.

Anything that incentivizes players to NOT sell via guild stores is not good for trading guilds.

I don't think anyone is disagreeing with you, just correcting your statement about returns.

hiyde · April 16

Ruj wrote: »

Anything that incentivizes players to NOT sell via guild stores is not good for trading guilds.

Agreed. The odds of going on vacation just before something expires are lower, but having gold from a sold item get zapped after 14 days is even more concerning.

The basic message here is "empty your store slots" before taking a break/going on vaca. Which really boils down to "go ahead and quit your trade guilds" because it's going to look like you've left the game and they're gonna purge you.

On the flip side, it's really common for members to "load up" their slots before vacation so they can continue to help the guild while away. At the bare minimum, these mails should last 30 days vs. 14.

Ruj · April 16

MashmalloMan wrote: »

Ruj wrote: »

Wolf_Eye wrote: »

So it is 30 days in store, plus the 14 days sitting in mail as an expired return item.

If you place an item for sale so that you are keeping 30/30 slots filled and that item sells overnight, that gives you roughly 2 weeks to claim the gold.

If you placed an item for sale and haven't kept track of when the 30 days to sell it are up, you could miss your opportunity to get the returned item.

Both are incentives for casual players to not sell in guild stores anymore. Not with high gold items.

I don't want to be worried/stressed out over losing my things. Maybe I just want to go play FFXIV for a month. Now I can't without making sure all my guild store slots are empty first.

Anything that incentivizes players to NOT sell via guild stores is not good for trading guilds.

I don't think anyone is disagreeing with you, just correcting your statement about returns.

I think there was a misunderstanding from me not being elaborate enough.

I've never thought that the 30 days to sell an item before it is returned via the mail is going to be changed.

I'm saying that a casual player's item might have gone through the 30 days of it being up for sale in the guild store. Maybe they put it up for 1 million, but it's now going for 800k. Prices fluctuate. Especially at the start of an expansion release.
So the item gets returned to mail while the player isn't logging in for 14 days. The item is now gone. The player doesn't have the item to post up for sale again.
Trading guild loses out on the sale cut that would have happened when the item was posted for sale again.

BlakMarket · April 16

Better server performance > 30 days guild sales collection of gold

Its a no brainier imo, 14 days is still plenty of time to collect considering all it takes is literally 5-10 minutes maximum to log in and clear/collect a full mailbox.

I think adapting to these new changes for the benefit of literally every type of player performance wise, is better than to cater to casual players who cant log in a few times every 14 days.

Wolf_Eye · April 16

MashmalloMan wrote: »

Ruj wrote: »

Wolf_Eye wrote: »

So it is 30 days in store, plus the 14 days sitting in mail as an expired return item.

If you place an item for sale so that you are keeping 30/30 slots filled and that item sells overnight, that gives you roughly 2 weeks to claim the gold.

If you placed an item for sale and haven't kept track of when the 30 days to sell it are up, you could miss your opportunity to get the returned item.

Both are incentives for casual players to not sell in guild stores anymore. Not with high gold items.

I don't want to be worried/stressed out over losing my things. Maybe I just want to go play FFXIV for a month. Now I can't without making sure all my guild store slots are empty first.

Anything that incentivizes players to NOT sell via guild stores is not good for trading guilds.

I don't think anyone is disagreeing with you, just correcting your statement about returns.

Yeah, I wasn't disagreeing I was just trying to clear up a miscommunication.

Ruj wrote: »

MashmalloMan wrote: »

Ruj wrote: »

Wolf_Eye wrote: »

So it is 30 days in store, plus the 14 days sitting in mail as an expired return item.

If you place an item for sale so that you are keeping 30/30 slots filled and that item sells overnight, that gives you roughly 2 weeks to claim the gold.

If you placed an item for sale and haven't kept track of when the 30 days to sell it are up, you could miss your opportunity to get the returned item.

Both are incentives for casual players to not sell in guild stores anymore. Not with high gold items.

I don't want to be worried/stressed out over losing my things. Maybe I just want to go play FFXIV for a month. Now I can't without making sure all my guild store slots are empty first.

Anything that incentivizes players to NOT sell via guild stores is not good for trading guilds.

I don't think anyone is disagreeing with you, just correcting your statement about returns.

I think there was a misunderstanding from me not being elaborate enough.

I've never thought that the 30 days to sell an item before it is returned via the mail is going to be changed.

I'm saying that a casual player's item might have gone through the 30 days of it being up for sale in the guild store. Maybe they put it up for 1 million, but it's now going for 800k. Prices fluctuate. Especially at the start of an expansion release.
So the item gets returned to mail while the player isn't logging in for 14 days. The item is now gone. The player doesn't have the item to post up for sale again.
Trading guild loses out on the sale cut that would have happened when the item was posted for sale again.

Yeah I think there was a miscommunication and I did not understand what your comment was saying before. I apologize.

I agree that 14 days is too short. I think it should stay at 30 days before expiring in the mail.

hiyde · April 16

BlakMarket wrote: »

Better server performance > 30 days guild sales collection of gold

Its a no brainier imo, 14 days is still plenty of time to collect considering all it takes is literally 5-10 minutes maximum to log in and clear/collect a full mailbox.

I think adapting to these new changes for the benefit of literally every type of player performance wise, is better than to cater to casual players who cant log in a few times every 14 days.

Ah, so 14 day retention time on mails with gold or items attached instead of 30 is the thing that's going to dramatically raise server performance. And here I thought the removal of deer in Cyrodiil was gonna do it. And then I thought for sure the AwA change would do it...😁

BlakMarket · April 16

hiyde wrote: »

BlakMarket wrote: »

Better server performance > 30 days guild sales collection of gold

Its a no brainier imo, 14 days is still plenty of time to collect considering all it takes is literally 5-10 minutes maximum to log in and clear/collect a full mailbox.

I think adapting to these new changes for the benefit of literally every type of player performance wise, is better than to cater to casual players who cant log in a few times every 14 days.

Ah, so 14 day retention time on mails with gold or items attached instead of 30 is the thing that's going to dramatically raise server performance. And here I thought the removal of deer in Cyrodiil was gonna do it. And then I thought for sure the AwA change would do it...😁

No, obviously a collection of changes help sever performance and for you to compare deer in Cyrodil to the changes proposed are like night and day. I think we can both agree, these retention time changes will lessen the server load.

And like I said I'm sure 99.9% of players will adapt to the changes, to log in once or twice over 14 days for 5 minutes to simply clear/collect mail.

Ph1p · April 16

BlakMarket wrote: »

And like I said I'm sure 99.9% of players will adapt to the changes, to log in once or twice over 14 days for 5 minutes to simply clear/collect mail.

This isn’t just about casual players but also people on holidays, so it’s a significant QoL decrease for most players. At the very least, the limits should be relaxed for mails not triggered by the player.

For example, the 7-day limit on Rewards of the Worthy coffers is fine, as you receive them on the go by playing PvP and can claim them immediately. But the timing of trader sales and (to a lesser degree) returns aren’t determined by the player, so those limits should be higher, for example.

This change just adds guaranteed frustration over lost items and gold for very little return, especially if people miss a login due to maintenance or crashes.

BlakMarket · April 16

Ph1p wrote: »

BlakMarket wrote: »

And like I said I'm sure 99.9% of players will adapt to the changes, to log in once or twice over 14 days for 5 minutes to simply clear/collect mail.

This isn’t just about casual players but also people on holidays, so it’s a significant QoL decrease for most players. At the very least, the limits should be relaxed for mails not triggered by the player.

For example, the 7-day limit on Rewards of the Worthy coffers is fine, as you receive them on the go by playing PvP and can claim them immediately. But the timing of trader sales and (to a lesser degree) returns aren’t determined by the player, so those limits should be higher, for example.

This change just adds guaranteed frustration over lost items and gold for very little return, especially if people miss a login due to maintenance or crashes.

I'd agree with you if they were making these changes for no reason or an unwanted/needed reasons, but they are not - they're making the changes for better overall performance. Performance is much more important for overall health and longevity of ESO.

I agree there will be some frustrations to begin with but I think you can also agree 14 days is plenty of time for players to adapt, and work out a selling/trading system to avoid lost gold etc.

Ph1p · April 16

BlakMarket wrote: »

Ph1p wrote: »

BlakMarket wrote: »

And like I said I'm sure 99.9% of players will adapt to the changes, to log in once or twice over 14 days for 5 minutes to simply clear/collect mail.

This isn’t just about casual players but also people on holidays, so it’s a significant QoL decrease for most players. At the very least, the limits should be relaxed for mails not triggered by the player.

For example, the 7-day limit on Rewards of the Worthy coffers is fine, as you receive them on the go by playing PvP and can claim them immediately. But the timing of trader sales and (to a lesser degree) returns aren’t determined by the player, so those limits should be higher, for example.

This change just adds guaranteed frustration over lost items and gold for very little return, especially if people miss a login due to maintenance or crashes.

I'd agree with you if they were making these changes for no reason or an unwanted/needed reasons, but they are not - they're making the changes for better overall performance. Performance is much more important for overall health and longevity of ESO.

I agree there will be some frustrations to begin with but I think you can also agree 14 days is plenty of time for players to adapt, and work out a selling/trading system to avoid lost gold etc.

That's why I'm not asking to leave everything as is, but to consider specific cases differently, for example:

Rewards of the Worthy coffers pile up in the mailbox because players leave them there as an extended inventory space. While I have done that as well, it is not intended behavior, so I understand/support the change to shorter retention times and how it can help performance.
Player mails can pile up because people again use it to extend their inventories. Same situation as with RotW and people can adapt to the changes by managing their inventories better.
However, guild sales and item returns mostly pile up because you are away and unable to react. ZOS isn't solving an issue here, but adding more burden on players displaying normal behavior. No one intentionally leaves gold from sales in their mailbox and with the new features to grab all attachments at once and delete empty mails, it will happen even less, so there isn't even much performance to be gained.

Finally, only ZOS can conclusively tell if 14 days is plenty or not, as they have internal statistics on player logins. But I would posit that going on vacation for 2+ weeks is not an extremely rare situation, plus there are other cases like the one OP described.

Wolf_Eye · April 16

Ph1p wrote: »

BlakMarket wrote: »

Ph1p wrote: »

BlakMarket wrote: »

And like I said I'm sure 99.9% of players will adapt to the changes, to log in once or twice over 14 days for 5 minutes to simply clear/collect mail.

This isn’t just about casual players but also people on holidays, so it’s a significant QoL decrease for most players. At the very least, the limits should be relaxed for mails not triggered by the player.

For example, the 7-day limit on Rewards of the Worthy coffers is fine, as you receive them on the go by playing PvP and can claim them immediately. But the timing of trader sales and (to a lesser degree) returns aren’t determined by the player, so those limits should be higher, for example.

This change just adds guaranteed frustration over lost items and gold for very little return, especially if people miss a login due to maintenance or crashes.

I'd agree with you if they were making these changes for no reason or an unwanted/needed reasons, but they are not - they're making the changes for better overall performance. Performance is much more important for overall health and longevity of ESO.

I agree there will be some frustrations to begin with but I think you can also agree 14 days is plenty of time for players to adapt, and work out a selling/trading system to avoid lost gold etc.

[*] However, guild sales and item returns mostly pile up because you are away and unable to react. ZOS isn't solving an issue here, but adding more burden on players displaying normal behavior. No one intentionally leaves gold from sales in their mailbox and with the new features to grab all attachments at once and delete empty mails, it will happen even less, so there isn't even much performance to be gained.
[/list]

Exactly, because there's no reason to. Unlike the rewards of the worthy, there is no hard limit to inventory space when it comes to storing gold. You could potentially store an infinite amount of gold, so there's no reason not to take it from the mail immediately.

robpr · April 16

Its mostly a ricochet change so people won't use mail as bottomless bank space I guess. And yes, it will have very small positive impact on the database performance per user, as db will have to dig through less data. Mail is not simply a one database row.

EF321 · April 16

Wolf_Eye wrote: »

Exactly, because there's no reason to. Unlike the rewards of the worthy, there is no hard limit to inventory space when it comes to storing gold. You could potentially store an infinite amount of gold, so there's no reason not to take it from the mail immediately.

No you can't, there is gold cap and it is 2.1 bil. You can test it on PTS

BlakMarket · April 16

Ph1p wrote: »

BlakMarket wrote: »

Ph1p wrote: »

BlakMarket wrote: »

And like I said I'm sure 99.9% of players will adapt to the changes, to log in once or twice over 14 days for 5 minutes to simply clear/collect mail.

This isn’t just about casual players but also people on holidays, so it’s a significant QoL decrease for most players. At the very least, the limits should be relaxed for mails not triggered by the player.

For example, the 7-day limit on Rewards of the Worthy coffers is fine, as you receive them on the go by playing PvP and can claim them immediately. But the timing of trader sales and (to a lesser degree) returns aren’t determined by the player, so those limits should be higher, for example.

This change just adds guaranteed frustration over lost items and gold for very little return, especially if people miss a login due to maintenance or crashes.

I'd agree with you if they were making these changes for no reason or an unwanted/needed reasons, but they are not - they're making the changes for better overall performance. Performance is much more important for overall health and longevity of ESO.

I agree there will be some frustrations to begin with but I think you can also agree 14 days is plenty of time for players to adapt, and work out a selling/trading system to avoid lost gold etc.

That's why I'm not asking to leave everything as is, but to consider specific cases differently, for example:
Rewards of the Worthy coffers pile up in the mailbox because players leave them there as an extended inventory space. While I have done that as well, it is not intended behavior, so I understand/support the change to shorter retention times and how it can help performance.

Player mails can pile up because people again use it to extend their inventories. Same situation as with RotW and people can adapt to the changes by managing their inventories better.

However, guild sales and item returns mostly pile up because you are away and unable to react. ZOS isn't solving an issue here, but adding more burden on players displaying normal behavior. No one intentionally leaves gold from sales in their mailbox and with the new features to grab all attachments at once and delete empty mails, it will happen even less, so there isn't even much performance to be gained.

Finally, only ZOS can conclusively tell if 14 days is plenty or not, as they have internal statistics on player logins. But I would posit that going on vacation for 2+ weeks is not an extremely rare situation, plus there are other cases like the one OP described.

We are literally having one of the most game changing mechanics (scribing) being implemented since launch, next patch. If ZOS is saying the new mail retention format will help with performance, I'm going to adapt to these changes for the greater good being performance.

Kirawolfe · April 16

I recommend that this gold go directly into player banks, rather than to player mail. Then it doesn't matter about the mail limits.

dvonpm · April 16

At least with a vacation you can plan ahead

Kirawolfe wrote: »

I recommend that this gold go directly into player banks, rather than to player mail. Then it doesn't matter about the mail limits.

That would be nice. You'd need to get a mail with the notification still, I think. I'd rather lose that than the gold.

Sync01 · April 16

Ruj wrote: »

Wolf_Eye wrote: »

So it is 30 days in store, plus the 14 days sitting in mail as an expired return item.

If you place an item for sale so that you are keeping 30/30 slots filled and that item sells overnight, that gives you roughly 2 weeks to claim the gold.

If you placed an item for sale and haven't kept track of when the 30 days to sell it are up, you could miss your opportunity to get the returned item.

Both are incentives for casual players to not sell in guild stores anymore. Not with high gold items.

I don't want to be worried/stressed out over losing my things. Maybe I just want to go play FFXIV for a month. Now I can't without making sure all my guild store slots are empty first.

Anything that incentivizes players to NOT sell via guild stores is not good for trading guilds.

I don't know if it's different on console, but on pc you can see your listings and how long until they expire. If you know you're going to be away for an extended amount of time and are worried you will lose out on gold if the item expires during that time, you can cancel the listing and get the item back immediately.

Wolf_Eye · April 16

EF321 wrote: »

Wolf_Eye wrote: »

Exactly, because there's no reason to. Unlike the rewards of the worthy, there is no hard limit to inventory space when it comes to storing gold. You could potentially store an infinite amount of gold, so there's no reason not to take it from the mail immediately.

No you can't, there is gold cap and it is 2.1 bil. You can test it on PTS

I actually and legitimately did not know this. I think because I cannot imagine I would ever reach that amount in my lifetime. Thanks for this info.

But I would next have to wonder how many people are at this cap and using mail for gold storage, because I cannot imagine it could be that many.

Elrond87 · April 16

now they just need to make guild listing 14days max instead of 1month

licenturion · April 17

BlakMarket wrote: »

Ph1p wrote: »

BlakMarket wrote: »

And like I said I'm sure 99.9% of players will adapt to the changes, to log in once or twice over 14 days for 5 minutes to simply clear/collect mail.

This isn’t just about casual players but also people on holidays, so it’s a significant QoL decrease for most players. At the very least, the limits should be relaxed for mails not triggered by the player.

For example, the 7-day limit on Rewards of the Worthy coffers is fine, as you receive them on the go by playing PvP and can claim them immediately. But the timing of trader sales and (to a lesser degree) returns aren’t determined by the player, so those limits should be higher, for example.

This change just adds guaranteed frustration over lost items and gold for very little return, especially if people miss a login due to maintenance or crashes.

I'd agree with you if they were making these changes for no reason or an unwanted/needed reasons, but they are not - they're making the changes for better overall performance. Performance is much more important for overall health and longevity of ESO.

I agree there will be some frustrations to begin with but I think you can also agree 14 days is plenty of time for players to adapt, and work out a selling/trading system to avoid lost gold etc.

If I can do geysers and harrowstorms with 100 people present with their companion, pets and combat minions without performance issues, I don’t think a static few lines of text are going to make a big difference. I hope they rollback some of these if people keep complaining about them. Especially the guild trader sales are bad.

Don’t think this will affect performance at all since new systems like scribing with lots of variables are introduced that will be loaded and active for most players in every zone.

Horny_Poney · April 17

Elrond87 wrote: »

now they just need to make guild listing 14days max instead of 1month

No, they need to remove this stupid limit. This would mean 0 guild trader returns.