Is there any reason to wear light armor anymore?

Remathilis

The question is simple; is there any reason to wear light armor as a DPS anymore?

It seems ever since hybridization, medium armor with a few light pieces is preferable light armor on DPS, even for Magicka. Why? Is there any reason to not be wearing medium if you're a DPS? Is light useful for anything other than healers? Is it a set-for-set thing or a general rule?

Thanks

Soarora

If both the armor you want is light armor, you need the mag sustain, or you're in content where you will not be reaching pen cap.

ceruulean

Remathilis wrote: »

The question is simple; is there any reason to wear light armor as a DPS anymore?

It seems ever since hybridization, medium armor with a few light pieces is preferable light armor on DPS, even for Magicka. Why? Is there any reason to not be wearing medium if you're a DPS? Is light useful for anything other than healers? Is it a set-for-set thing or a general rule?

Thanks

In early game, I thought light armor was useful for sustain and for penetration. At higher CP you can take Force of Nature for penetratin and the siphoning stars for sustain. Also for harder content, the ability to block and dodge roll means that stamina sustain and the faster sprint speed will save your life more than magicka sustain. So no, there really is no reason to wear light armor in late game. Only healers wear light armor because the healing sets come in light armor.

colossalvoids

4 man, solo or unorganised groups in general. If you can't hit a pen cap it's still the best bet.

Sustain also, which can't be overlooked.

merpins

Damage and crit damage is better than, in most cases, crit rate and penetration. You can hit the penetration cap without much if any light armor, and you can get to good crit rate without any light armor. The only reason to use it with its current setup is if you're struggling with sustain on a magicka build, or if your specific build can only be done with light armor and it outpaces medium armor alternatives (none that I can think of in the current meta).

Imo, they need to split up crit rate, penetration, damage, and crit damage and distribute them more evenly. Crit damage and damage is really strong together, but crit damage and crit rate synergises too well, even if it would be slightly more balanced.

Jestir

I'm honestly at the point now where I think they should just go through with making light for sustain/healing and medium all about damage.

The original intent has been completely lost and I'm not sure there is really any way left to properly balance light vs medium while keeping both for dps in a post hybridization world

DinoZavr

For soloing 4-man stamplars and stamDKs would probably wear one, maybe two light pieces for 18,200 pen (other classes have pen bonuses) which is more convenient (less limiting) then having to wear sets with extra pen. Also one piece of each weight is good for Undaunted Mettle passive.
For group play where many buffs/debuffs are provided by the tank you don't have to worry about penetration as solo player does. This also is not relevant for solo activities in overland, delves and public dungeons as they require only 9,100 pen.

NoSoup

merpins wrote: »

Damage and crit damage is better than, in most cases, crit rate and penetration. You can hit the penetration cap without much if any light armor, and you can get to good crit rate without any light armor. The only reason to use it with its current setup is if you're struggling with sustain on a magicka build, or if your specific build can only be done with light armor and it outpaces medium armor alternatives (none that I can think of in the current meta).

Imo, they need to split up crit rate, penetration, damage, and crit damage and distribute them more evenly. Crit damage and damage is really strong together, but crit damage and crit rate synergises too well, even if it would be slightly more balanced.

Yep, simple fix. Swap the light armor penetration to medium and the crit damage of medium to light. Light gives increase crit chance and damage medium gives increased weapon/spell damage and penetration.

ESO_Nightingale

Jestir wrote: »

I'm honestly at the point now where I think they should just go through with making light for sustain/healing and medium all about damage.

The original intent has been completely lost and I'm not sure there is really any way left to properly balance light vs medium while keeping both for dps in a post hybridization world

Ugh I'd hate that

Uvi_AUT

merpins wrote: »

Damage and crit damage is better than, in most cases, crit rate and penetration. You can hit the penetration cap without much if any light armor, and you can get to good crit rate without any light armor. The only reason to use it with its current setup is if you're struggling with sustain on a magicka build, or if your specific build can only be done with light armor and it outpaces medium armor alternatives (none that I can think of in the current meta).

Imo, they need to split up crit rate, penetration, damage, and crit damage and distribute them more evenly. Crit damage and damage is really strong together, but crit damage and crit rate synergises too well, even if it would be slightly more balanced.

No, and with Hybridization the way it is it will never be again. Look at Arcanist. That char doesnt even have a Magicka/Stamina-Setup anymore. Its just DPS.

Dagoth_Rac

colossalvoids wrote: »

4 man, solo or unorganised groups in general. If you can't hit a pen cap it's still the best bet.

Sustain also, which can't be overlooked.

And regular old crit chance is nice in smaller groups. Those 12-man leaderboard trial groups are pushing the crit damage cap, so even modest crit rates can do huge damage. For smaller and less organized groups, more crit chance to make up for your crits doing less damage, is helpful.

MashmalloMan

If were to better balance the armor weights, I'd attempt something like this:

Equalize base armor values. This means Heavy and Light would copy Medium's armor value per piece:

• Current Shoulder: 2425 H, 1823 M, 1221 L
• New Shoulder: 1823 H, 1823 M, 1823 L
• Reinforced trait increased from 16% to 20%. Compensates the loss for Heavy where it was used most often.
• Note: Reinforced would become useful for Light where it was a trap before, although you still will want to use it on Chest vs Nirnhoned on Gloves/Belt.

Math regarding base armor weights:

Heavy:

• 2772 (x1) = Chest.
• 2425 (x4) = Head, shoulder, legs, boots.
• 1386 (x1) = Gloves
• 1039 (x1) = Belt
• 14897 = Total (22.57%)
• +3698 = Medium difference (+5.60%)

Medium:

• 2024 (x1) = Chest.
• 1823 (x4) = Head, shoulder, legs, boots.
• 1042 (x1) = Gloves
• 781 (x1) = Belt
• 11199 = Total (16.97% mitigation)

Light:

• 1396 (x1) = Chest.
• 1221 (x4) = Head, shoulder, legs, boots.
• 698 (x1) = Gloves
• 523 (x1) = Belt
• 14897 = Total (11.37%)
• -3698 = Medium difference (-5.60%)

Light:

• Increase Prodigy's Critical Chance from +1% to +1.5%
• Remove Spell Warding's +726 Spell Resistance. Not necessary with bonus/penalties and new base armor.
• Add +1% Healing Done and Shield Strength to Spell Warding.

Heavy:

• Increase Constitution's Health Regeneration from +4% to +6%.
• Increase Resolve's Armor from +343 to +871.
• Covers the equalized base armor loss of -3698 by adding +528 per piece.

Explanation:

Medium stays the same, used as a standard. The bonus/penalties of light and heavy are balanced pretty well already, the issue has always been the base armor, Medium continues to bridge the gap with no penalties, but weaker bonuses.

Heavy's lost armor from equalized weighted pieces is shifted to its passive, retaining the total 14897 armor it had, but there is no longer a pressure on where you use a light or heavy piece. This would reduce inventory management and make build theory crafting easier to understand. In addition, they now have a bit stronger health regeneration. HP regen is not equal in value to stam/mag regen so it doesn't make much sense for it to be at 4%. The added +2% coupled with the removal of Defile's HP regeneration debuff may make HP regen a viable stat choice now, without making it OP like it was before because it's still ultimately reduced by -50% in pvp.

Light would no longer double dip in their disadvantages from base armor + penalties, they would share the same value as Medium and Heavy. In addition to equalized armor with Medium, they now have a bonus for healing done and shield strength, something that has always been missing for support roles forced to use Light armor. A small bump to their uncapped DPS stat via 1.5% crit chance helps them better compete with Medium's uncapped DPS stat via 2% weapon/spell damage.

The idea of each armor's defensive capabilities are better reinforced via passives now:

• Light for restoration via healing done/shielding.
• Medium for evasion via dodge rolling/sprinting/aoe damage mitigation.
• Heavy for tanking via healing received/hp regen/armor.

ItsNotLiving

Welcome to what everyone said hybridization would do.

techprince

Light Armor in Solo and 4 man. Medium for trials.

Sabre

The whole idea of wear any type of armor for any type of build is contrary to armors giving specific bonuses to offensive skills and regeneration, etc. So i slap on a medium piece of armor and I get weapon and spell damage? Shouldn't hiding/stealthing be more beneficial in light armor, not medium,? Yet medium armor gives the stealth radius bonus.

*Perhaps stealth radius bonus should be 100% with light, 50% with medium, and 20% with heavy. Naked, of course, would also be 100%, thus the more you wear the more you are not stealthy. The same goes for the other core skills like sprinting and dodging. The heavier the armor (piece by piece), the more they cost.
*Likewise the magicka cost of abilities should be greater for a heavier piece of armor. Thus, a magicka skill would cost more with medium, and much more with heavy. This would matter more if there was still a need for max stam/mag stats...because to be effective with heavy armor amid increased costs one would need more of a max stat for sustain and effect.
*leave sustain/regen/crit/damage/etc. to the other skill areas. This is armor, not weapons.
*make movement speed hindered by the armor piece, thus light loses no speed, medium some, heavy even more.
*Heavier armor gives more crit resist, elemental resist, etc etc.
*get rid of hybridization...it is dumbing down and ruining the game, and obsoleting sets of armor etc. The stam/magicka skill morph in the class abilities is dumb to begin with, but hybrid is even worse.
*The skill system and armor set system is in much need of an overhaul, but...it looks like they are going to add another layer onto it this year with scribing. So instead of overhauling a bad system, scribing will add another layer to an already flawed, and getting worse system.

BXR_Lonestar

Quick comment here:

A contributing factor to light armor basically being useless is the fact that it is extremely easy to hit the penetration cap of 18200 with a tank built to maximize armor stripping for the group. With my DK tank, the DPS need a wopping 2k Penetration to reach the cap - Basically 2 light armor pieces, or one sharpened piece, maybe not even that much investment if the damage sets also have a line of penetration. Under these circumstances, the only benefit you would get from light armor is extra crit chance - which is capped at 60%, so why bother focusing on crit chance?

They really screwed the pooch in balancing IMO, and the only thing that I think could fix this issue is give us bonus damage for having penetration that exceeds the armor cap. So lets say if a target ends up with -5000 armor, the DPS that exceed the penetration cap would get bonus damage that would not necessarily show up in their character tool tip.

Zama666

so when I wear all heavy armor, people are laughing at me?

loosej

BXR_Lonestar wrote: »

Under these circumstances, the only benefit you would get from light armor is extra crit chance - which is capped at 60%, so why bother focusing on crit chance?

There's no cap on crit chance i think?

notyuu

loosej wrote: »

BXR_Lonestar wrote: »

Under these circumstances, the only benefit you would get from light armor is extra crit chance - which is capped at 60%, so why bother focusing on crit chance?

There's no cap on crit chance i think?

Correct, there is no cap on crit chance.

case in point I was able to slap together a 94% crit chance build on the PTS, problem is ya have to give up so much to reach that level your everything else is dog water rendering you less than effective in combat

mmtaniac

Heavy need to slow you down, like in single player games.

sneakymitchell

I like to run more light for the substain purposes even though I might take more damage from melee attacks. Still it’s alright. Not too bad.

ClowdyAllDay

light armor with healing done and shield bonuses makes it less useful.

for solo and 4 man content i would prefer a stam healer to play with 2h and bow on nightblade, templar and of course warden. Extra percentage healing done seems pointless to me and always has. People who play that way bore me to death with their complaints about not using a healing set.

Just as an example,i like crafting sets and so for a healer i'd use orders wrath and gourmand (overland) for my healer. or orders wrath and anything else. OW and heartland comes to mind.

Stop saying these healing sets are great for solo and 4 man. BLAECH! My healers aint using that nonsense. not even on the cp system i wont use that percentage healing done nonsense. never liked it. xAlmost 6 years now maybe?

SeaGtGruff

mmtaniac wrote: »

Heavy need to slow you down, like in single player games.

Heavy armor doesn't slow me down in the single-player TES games, it just adds to however much weight I'm encumbered with, thus reducing how much other stuff I can pick up before hitting my maximum encumberance.

Some-- but certainly not all-- of the other TES games do slow you down a bit when you're near your maximum encumberance, but it's by such a small amount that you almost can't tell the difference (if you wear heavy armor all the time) unless you cast some Feather spells, which reduces your encumberance and lets you run noticeably faster than usual.

Nihilr

merpins wrote: »

Imo, they need to split up crit rate, penetration, damage, and crit damage and distribute them more evenly. Crit damage and damage is really strong together, but crit damage and crit rate synergises too well, even if it would be slightly more balanced.

The game needs more rebalance than that. More specifically:

* Healing Critical chance and Damage Critical chance should be split traits.
* Same for the Critical Damage % vs Critical Healing %.
* Spell Power and Weapon Power should be replaced by +2% heals on support-type sets.

Or just get rid of light armor altogether (merge with Medium armor) just as Skyrim did (for good reason, magicka users wore clothes and relied on spells for defense).

The self-healing and damage are too powerful combined, and limits some builds from being plausible, but also, some sets that were never meant to be used by a dps, are because the stats doubledip into both damage and healing benefits.

Edit: Caps, clarification.

DigiAngel

Light:

• Each piece of Light Armor does the following: Reduces damage taken from Magical attacks by 1% Reduces the cost of Roll Dodge by 3% Reduces the Movement Speed penalty of Sneak by 5% Reduces the cost of Break Free by 5% Reduces the cost of Bash by 3%
• Each piece of Light Armor does the following: Increases damage taken from Martial attacks by 1% Increases the cost of Block by 3% Decreases damage done with Bash by 1%
• Reduces the effectiveness of snares applied to you by 4% for each piece of Light Armor worn. Reduces the cost of Sprint by 3% for each piece of Light Armor worn.
• Increases your Magicka Recovery by 4% for each piece of Light Armor equipped. Reduces the Magicka cost of your abilities by 2% for each piece of Light Armor equipped.
• Increases your Spell Resistance by 726 for each piece of Light Armor equipped.
• Increases your Weapon and Spell Critical rating by 219 for each piece of Light Armor equipped.
• Increases your Physical and Spell Penetration by 939 for each piece of Light Armor worn.

Medium:

• Each piece of Medium Armor does the following: Reduces the cost of Sprint by 1% Reduces the cost of Sneak by 5% Reduces the cost of Block by 3% Reduces damage taken from Area of Effect attacks by 2% for 2 seconds after you use Roll Dodge Increases Movement Speed by 2% while immune to crowd control
• Increases your Critical Damage and Healing done rating by 2% for every piece of Medium Armor equipped.
• Increases your Stamina Recovery by 4% per piece of Medium Armor equipped. Reduces the Stamina cost of your abilities by 2% per piece of Medium Armor equipped.
• Reduces the cost of Sneak by 7% for each piece of Medium Armor equipped. Reduces the size of your detection area while Sneaking by 5% for each piece of Medium Armor equipped.
• Increases your Weapon and Spell Damage by 2% for each piece of Medium Armor worn.
• Increases the Movement Speed bonus of Sprint by 3% for each piece of Medium Armor equipped. Reduces the cost of Roll Dodge by 4% for each piece of Medium Armor equipped.

I keep seeing this thread...after looking at it...seems like they both have good/bad....ya light has a negative, but increased penetration. So....yea I'll continue to wear both I guess :shrug:

ADarklore

Interesting that most people commenting are assuming that all players are playing GROUP content where the pen cap comes into play. For people like me that play SOLO, the added penetration from light armor is extremely valuable- and not having to use a CP slot to add the pen means I can slot more damage CP stars. Soloing against WB, I cannot reach pen cap, in fact, even with light armor and class bonus I'm sitting around 8500 pen and open world enemies have 9000 resistance and WB have 18,000. So against WB I have to slot a Major Breach skill just to get closer to pen cap including the pen I get from light armor.

So YES, there IS a reason to wear light armor IMO.

Shadowbinder7

Uvi_AUT wrote: »

merpins wrote: »

Damage and crit damage is better than, in most cases, crit rate and penetration. You can hit the penetration cap without much if any light armor, and you can get to good crit rate without any light armor. The only reason to use it with its current setup is if you're struggling with sustain on a magicka build, or if your specific build can only be done with light armor and it outpaces medium armor alternatives (none that I can think of in the current meta).

Imo, they need to split up crit rate, penetration, damage, and crit damage and distribute them more evenly. Crit damage and damage is really strong together, but crit damage and crit rate synergises too well, even if it would be slightly more balanced.

No, and with Hybridization the way it is it will never be again. Look at Arcanist. That char doesnt even have a Magicka/Stamina-Setup anymore. Its just DPS.

Just want to clarify that this is simply what is META to set up the Arcanist as in endgame organised PVE. End of the day that set up is actually a stamina Arcanist.

Magicka Arcanist very much exists but for some reason (I feel laziness on the part of the devs yet again) this Arcanist set up is weaker in output by using Runeblades (a nicely animated skill, could do with range extension to 28m) in conjunction with cephaliarchs flail. Not to mention that the magicka morph cannot be used reliably with the crux system since it consumes crux, which was a very counterintuitive decision for that ability.

Arcanist class won’t be complained about right now because of how amazingly well stamina Arcanist has been performing. But the way it’s been dealt with is another prime example that the combat teams are being very inconsistent, random, and frankly lazy and inattentive to their modifying and design of class skills and interactions with passives and non class skill lines. This applies to every class, even dragonknight, though to a lesser extent. After all stone giant still exists in its current form, left ignored

Shadowbinder7

Relating to armour, I very much hope the developers try to shake off this mag or stam supremacy in solo vs coordinated, and simply allow for all damage dealer classes, mag or stam, to benefit similarly in power from either light or medium, so that both may be used say 6-1 or even 7 pieces, in different builds, from solo arenas to HM trials.

6 medium armour mag dds sustaining worse than stam and in most cases performing worse is simply stale and shouldn’t be acceptable, I’m sure most will agree.

Once again I emphasise. If ZOS truly wants to sell the “play as you want style” that should really extend all the way to the hardest content, such that the only barrier is skill, competency and attention to mechanics, not whether you use a certain very biased set of skills, or wear only medium armour pieces. Even sets are becoming to constructive. Too many dead sets that if revived could provide MUCH more variety in high end gameplay. The psijic order skill line was left obsolete with people always used barbed trap or better skills for tank healer and pvp roles.


I could go on… but improving eso’s fun in combat experience has to start from a positive attitude towards properly rebalancing and using what is already there remaking it all to be useful and fun! Not adding more and more aspects to the combat system that don’t work and increase the instability imbalance. And make the game less and less fun from a combat perspective!

GrimStyx

They reworked the armor, but turned it in the wrong direction, armor, depending on its type, should either give maximum damage or give maximum survivability, middle armor - accordingly, something in between DPS and survivability, this problem also lies in pvp content , when we have unkillable tanks capable of inflicting decent damage, of course, this is not the only reason, but one of them. If those who run in heavy armor received a damage penalty, and those who use light received a maximum damage bonus, this would help solve some of the problems with their poor balance. In addition, since the game has gone towards hybridization, here shouldn’t be separate the benefits of armor for magic and stamina builds, but make them equally useful for everyone

Nerouyn

Remathilis wrote: »

The question is simple; is there any reason to wear light armor as a DPS anymore?

I'm returning after a long absence and also trying to wrap my head around the armour changes, which I don't hate but in all light I find myself dying rather a lot in certain content.

The answer might lie in companion gear.

The companion light armour passive boosts healing, medium boosts damage and heavy boosts defence.

If the current potentially confusing state of play is one of those transitional ones, this might be what they're moving towards.

Shadowbinder7

Uvi_AUT wrote: »

merpins wrote: »

Damage and crit damage is better than, in most cases, crit rate and penetration. You can hit the penetration cap without much if any light armor, and you can get to good crit rate without any light armor. The only reason to use it with its current setup is if you're struggling with sustain on a magicka build, or if your specific build can only be done with light armor and it outpaces medium armor alternatives (none that I can think of in the current meta).

Imo, they need to split up crit rate, penetration, damage, and crit damage and distribute them more evenly. Crit damage and damage is really strong together, but crit damage and crit rate synergises too well, even if it would be slightly more balanced.

No, and with Hybridization the way it is it will never be again. Look at Arcanist. That char doesnt even have a Magicka/Stamina-Setup anymore. Its just DPS.

YES it does. I made a MAGICKA Arcanist and then I made a STAMINA Arcanist both damage dealers.

Yes the magicka Arcanist uses runeblades as a crux spam with cephalon as a debuff. Yes this play style works and is mildly enjoyable

And YES for some BIZZARE reason, the developers decided to morph and scale the abilities and make tentacular dread consume crux (when beam needs to, what???? Does even give you one crux when u use it according to inspired scholarship condition).

Which… YES… has basically resulted in Stamina Arcanist making poor beautiful magicka Arcanist with beautiful runeblades…. REDUNDANT! Because even in dungeon content, my stamarc has enough pen to put dps my mag

I am sorry but RUNEBLADES NEEDS A BUFF!! Please it’s so much nicer than stupid calamari flail

Rant over. Please developers, you know I am correct. It’s only fair to make sure there is a mag and stam for every class that’s viable and fun