ZOS: Refactor PVP for PVP gamers

Desiato

It seems to me that sometime over the years, ZOS started to refactor PVP for its very casual PVE audience. I think this effort gained momentum starting around the time of the first AvA giftbox events in which PVE players felt highly motivated to participate, but had a miserable time and let everyone in the forums know about it. These customers are obviously the bread and butter of the Crown Store business model and ZOS bends over backwards for them.

However, years later, they still hate PVP and as a result of the changes and more forced PVE grinding, PVP players also dislike ESO PVP and have largely left. The point is that your approach to making ESO a PVP game your entire audience can enjoy has failed at all levels with only a fringe PVP community remaining.

Please consider refactoring ESO PVP into a game the greater PVP gaming community would enjoy. Other PVP games earn a lot of money from microtransactions without making players jump through hoops and appealing to players who don't really like PVP games.

You should go back to the drawing board and start simple with a limited number of basic sets available and build up from there. Put the emphasis back on individual/team skill, strategy and tactics. Right now sets dominate gameplay. Probably most experienced players either run stalemate or arena builds that play half the game for them. It's very bad PVP seemingly designed mainly for players who are inexplicably afraid to die in a game.

I write this because fundamentally, Cyrodiil and IC have SO much potential and could be extremely popular among the greater PVP gaming community (outside of ESO) if implemented correctly. ZOS has missed out on a huge business opportunity.

SaffronCitrusflower

Desiato wrote: »

It seems to me that sometime over the years, ZOS started to refactor PVP for its very casual PVE audience. I think this effort gained momentum starting around the time of the first AvA giftbox events in which PVE players felt highly motivated to participate, but had a miserable time and let everyone in the forums know about it. These customers are obviously the bread and butter of the Crown Store business model and ZOS bends over backwards for them.

However, years later, they still hate PVP and as a result of the changes and more forced PVE grinding, PVP players also dislike ESO PVP and have largely left. The point is that your approach to making ESO a PVP game your entire audience can enjoy has failed at all levels with only a fringe PVP community remaining.

Please consider refactoring ESO PVP into a game the greater PVP gaming community would enjoy. Other PVP games earn a lot of money from microtransactions without making players jump through hoops and appealing to players who don't really like PVP games.

You should go back to the drawing board and start simple with a limited number of basic sets available and build up from there. Put the emphasis back on individual/team skill, strategy and tactics. Right now sets dominate gameplay. Probably most experienced players either run stalemate or arena builds that play half the game for them. It's very bad PVP seemingly designed mainly for players who are inexplicably afraid to die in a game.

I write this because fundamentally, Cyrodiil and IC have SO much potential and could be extremely popular among the greater PVP gaming community (outside of ESO) if implemented correctly.

Judging by the continual population cap reductions over the years ZOS might very well be planning on eliminating Cyrodiil as a PvP zone. The original population cap was 600 players/faction. Now the cap is 60-80 players/faction. And performance is still questionable even with the radically reduced population cap we have today. Cyrodiil used to pop lock even when the cap was 600/faction during prime time. It was epic. If ZOS wanted to bring the zone back they could. They choose not to for some reason.

Necrotech_Master

the biggest issues facing pvp right now are mainly:

1. performance (the big one, general lag, desyncs, disconnects, etc)
2. population caps too low for the size of the zone (more of an issue with cyrodiil, IC seems to be pretty good since its a smaller zone)

some PVE players will hate pvp regardless of what you do to it

and they already have campaigns that heavily restrict what you can use (no cp, no proc campaign), but this is clearly unpopular its always extremely low pop, and is in a vicious catch 22 cycle of nobody wants to play there because nobody is playing there (which i find ironic because people play in the camps with more people then come to complain about the procs, and when you mention no proc cyrodiil the same people say they dont play there because nobody plays there lol)

Desiato

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

the biggest issues facing pvp right now are mainly:

1. performance (the big one, general lag, desyncs, disconnects, etc)
2. population caps too low for the size of the zone (more of an issue with cyrodiil, IC seems to be pretty good since its a smaller zone)

Gameplay design is as large a factor in performance as the number of players. I could design a game that performs poorly with just two players playing. Conversely, a very basic game could theoretically be designed that facilitates hundreds of players smoothly. There is a middle ground that ESO devs seem to have avoided for reasons we can only speculate on.

This is why a common theme among recommendations to fix the game is to devise a PVP specific ruleset. Unlimited sustain, AEs, calculation-intensive sets and AE healing/dmg disproportionately affect performance.

I could be wrong, but I have observed most players prefer to play single target builds and enjoy both small and large scale engagements with other players who run them. Yet gameplay is dominated by the minority of players who run calculation-intense ball groups. I've been involved in countless large scale engagements with acceptable performance until the ball groups show up.

IMO, the single biggest reason ESO PVP is unpopular is the PVE grind. The greater PVP community in gaming wants to be able to PVP without hundreds of hours of PVE grinding that never ends as new sets are introduced. Part of making ESO a popular PVP game would mean making it more accessible to PVP focused players by greatly reducing the PVE grind.

I do agree that it is essential to improve performance, but the best way to do this is with better gameplay design.

Necrotech_Master

again they already have a limited ruleset cyrodiil

ravenwatch campaign has no cp enabled (less overall mitigations), no procs (removes 90% of the "calculated proc sets" from use), and no hammer (which affects performance by promoting faction stacking and makes easier to destroy keeps, since each keep wall and postern is its own entity too)

but as i noted, its a catch 22 in this game, nobody plays there because nobody plays there (even people who complain about procs all the time dont play there because they say they rather have a populated cyrodiil than play with a ruleset they would enjoy more)

Desiato

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

again they already have a limited ruleset cyrodiil

ravenwatch campaign has no cp enabled (less overall mitigations), no procs (removes 90% of the "calculated proc sets" from use), and no hammer (which affects performance by promoting faction stacking and makes easier to destroy keeps, since each keep wall and postern is its own entity too)

but as i noted, its a catch 22 in this game, nobody plays there because nobody plays there (even people who complain about procs all the time dont play there because they say they rather have a populated cyrodiil than play with a ruleset they would enjoy more)

I think the general opinion is that ZOS failed in the implementation. They also haven't given the effort enough resources for the rapid iteration that is necessary for development of the concept. And though it reduces the impact of OP sets, it's not even close to being balanced.

I think that if it were more popular, many of the same problems would still exist because it doesn't go far enough. I think the gameplay has to be re-engineered from the ground up with a design paradigm that limits the impact a single entity can have on performance, even when grouped.

I agree that there's also a chicken and egg problem in terms of the number of players. It is why I prefer to play on GH. I think that also extends outside of ESO to the number of PVP gamers that ESO PVP is accessible to, which is why I think it's important to make it less convoluted by reducing the number of sets -- especially those with verbose 5 piece bonuses. In general, the more complex something it is, the more difficult it is to balance.

Necrotech_Master

Desiato wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

again they already have a limited ruleset cyrodiil

ravenwatch campaign has no cp enabled (less overall mitigations), no procs (removes 90% of the "calculated proc sets" from use), and no hammer (which affects performance by promoting faction stacking and makes easier to destroy keeps, since each keep wall and postern is its own entity too)

but as i noted, its a catch 22 in this game, nobody plays there because nobody plays there (even people who complain about procs all the time dont play there because they say they rather have a populated cyrodiil than play with a ruleset they would enjoy more)

I think the general opinion is that ZOS failed in the implementation. They also haven't given the effort enough resources for the rapid iteration that is necessary for development of the concept. And though it reduces the impact of OP sets, it's not even close to being balanced.

I think that if it were more popular, many of the same problems would still exist because it doesn't go far enough. I think the gameplay has to be re-engineered from the ground up with a design paradigm that limits the impact a single entity can have on performance, even when grouped.

I agree that there's also a chicken and egg problem in terms of the number of players. It is why I prefer to play on GH. I think that also extends outside of ESO to the number of PVP gamers that ESO PVP is accessible to, which is why I think it's important to make it less convoluted by reducing the number of sets -- especially those with verbose 5 piece bonuses. In general, the more complex something it is, the more difficult it is to balance.

well, i find it extremely unlikely that the "entire gameplay being re-engineered from the ground up" is something that will ever happen for a game this old

as that would also likely require overhauling the entire game at that point and would also affect PVE and pretty much everything, as all combat mechanics are basically the same in PVE and PVP with the exception of battle spirit effects

edit to add: and reducing the number of sets is exactly what the no proc cyrodiil is doing

Desiato

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

well, i find it extremely unlikely that the "entire gameplay being re-engineered from the ground up" is something that will ever happen for a game this old

as that would also likely require overhauling the entire game at that point and would also affect PVE and pretty much everything, as all combat mechanics are basically the same in PVE and PVP with the exception of battle spirit effects

It's extremely unlikely ZOS will change course. I think they're very comfortable with the money they earn from main story and cosmetic focused PVE players. But there's no practical reason it couldn't happen. And if I was a ZOS investor (yeah, I know it's owned by MS now), I would be upset they failed to capitalize on the extremely profitable greater PVP gaming audience. It's a missed opportunity to the degree of negligence.

There's no reason PVE would be impacted at all, and re-engineering the gameplay isn't the same as re-engineering the client/server. Plus many popular games use outdated engines. It actually is a benefit in some ways because PVP gamers generally prefer ultra-smooth framerates.

Necrotech_Master

Desiato wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

well, i find it extremely unlikely that the "entire gameplay being re-engineered from the ground up" is something that will ever happen for a game this old

as that would also likely require overhauling the entire game at that point and would also affect PVE and pretty much everything, as all combat mechanics are basically the same in PVE and PVP with the exception of battle spirit effects

It's extremely unlikely ZOS will change course. I think they're very comfortable with the money they earn from main story and cosmetic focused PVE players. But there's no practical reason it couldn't happen. And if I was a ZOS investor (yeah, I know it's owned by MS now), I would be upset they failed to capitalize on the extremely profitable greater PVP gaming audience. It's a missed opportunity to the degree of negligence.

There's no reason PVE would be impacted at all, and re-engineering the gameplay isn't the same as re-engineering the client/server. Plus many popular games use outdated engines. It actually is a benefit in some ways because PVP gamers generally prefer ultra-smooth framerates.

the lag is all client/server though

people who play in ravenwatch usually say its better performance, but thats also because theres lower population there

they also did tests in cyro where ALL the campaigns had no procs, or no cross heals outside of groups, cooldowns on AOEs etc, and none of those affected performance at all or minimally (which is why they kept the no proc rule campaign to begin with)

so yes, it would require them to likely rewrite the game engine in order to fix any kind of performance problems based on what they have done already, which is something i doubt they will do at this point in the games life, or probably even can do without just making a brand new game

most of what your saying either comes from reduce procs (already exists), or improve performance (something they need to do but may be limited in how much they can due to the age of the code without rewriting it)

Desiato

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

\most of what your saying either comes from reduce procs (already exists), or improve performance (something they need to do but may be limited in how much they can due to the age of the code without rewriting it)

I've been part of recent large scale fights that have performed well enough with the right play style composition. And though I would prefer the pop cap to be higher, I think it's high enough for ESO PVP to be popular if its barrier of entry was significantly reduced.

Many years ago, with much worse performance issues, ESO PVP was much more popular simply because its overall design was much more favorable to PVP player and PVE could largely be ignored. Even the original Arena weapons used to be awarded as end of campaign awards!

I think ESO AvA as it currently stands with few modifications could be a popular F2P standalone game. I think it still has incredible untapped potential.

I don't think ZOS has gone far enough in any of their experiments and I do not believe they have invested significant resources. They need to start from a much more simple baseline and be prepared to iterate rapidly. Rapid iteration is a requirement for any product undergoing significant changes.

My main points are that the barrier of entry is too high for players who only want to PVP and that the gameplay has been modified too far from what they would enjoy in favor of a safer experience for carebears who still don't play.

xylena_lazarow

Whether it's the goal or not, the gap between hardcore PvPers and everyone else is wider than ever.

React

I pretty much agree.

Changes like cast time ultimates, block persisting through barswap, the drastic reduction in the functionality of animation cancelling with the block changes, the continual introduction of proc damage/healing sets, and the lack of ANY signifcant balance changes over the past few years have deteriorated the PVP experience to a point where it hardly resembles the system we knew and loved. The skill ceiling has been lowered so drastically that there is hardly a separation between an average player and a good player, or a good player and a top tier player anymore. In the same sets & specs, you can't even really tell them apart.

While I know it isn't realistic to think they'd walk back any of these changes, I'd hope they would at least be willing to openly address the balance issues plaguing PVP right now. If they're truly planning to introduce signifcant PVP content in Q4, it would really be in their best interest to fix the problems that are the lowest hanging fruit prior to doing that.

Infinite HOT stacking, undeath, max HP, and unfinished hybridization are the top things that come to mind in this regard.

Quackery

Desiato wrote: »

Judging by the continual population cap reductions over the years ZOS might very well be planning on eliminating Cyrodiil as a PvP zone. The original population cap was 600 players/faction. Now the cap is 60-80 players/faction. And performance is still questionable even with the radically reduced population cap we have today. Cyrodiil used to pop lock even when the cap was 600/faction during prime time. It was epic. If ZOS wanted to bring the zone back they could. They choose not to for some reason.

It's not about the money, they earn more than enough, trust me on that. I have no idea what the leadership of the company are thinking, but I guarantee you that it's not about the money.

Desiato

Quackery wrote: »

It's not about the money, they earn more than enough, trust me on that. I have no idea what the leadership of the company are thinking, but I guarantee you that it's not about the money.

@Quackery

The quoted text in your post is attributed to me, but was written by someone else.

Stamicka

ESO is missing a lot of things to make it a competitive game in my opinion. It's veered so far off the path of a competitive game that I think ZOS would be better off making a totally new game that doesn't have the "Elder Scrolls" IP attached to it. A lot of people play ESO or initially gained interest in it because they like the Elder Scrolls lore or games like Morrowind, Oblivion, and Skyrim. I'm not saying that the people interested in those games can't be competitive players, but a lot of them seem to prefer casual solo questing. I truly think ESO being an Elder Scrolls game is the main reason it has attracted such a casual non-competitive playerbase and why the devs keep catering to them.

In retrospect, the original combat system and the focus on PvP was kind of an odd choice for this game. However, the fact that it devolved into the casual questing game it is today is no surprise. There has always been such a stark divide between those who play ESO as casual questers and those who do PvP and trials. I hardly see any PvPers that spend a lot of time questing as well. Likewise, I notice that casual questers will avoid PvP AT ALL COSTS, they can't stand it. While it is possible for both extremes to exist within ESO, the developers were still in a tough spot.

By now I think that the majority of the population is casual. Both end game PvP and PvE have lost the majority of its players. The choice for who to make content for is more clear.

If we could get a game with something similar to ESO's original combat system as well as something resembling Cyrodiil and BGs that ISN'T attached to the Elder Scrolls IP, we could really have something nice.

Desiato

Stamicka wrote: »

In retrospect, the original combat system and the focus on PvP was kind of an odd choice for this game. However, the fact that it devolved into the casual questing game it is today is no surprise. There has always been such a stark divide between those who play ESO as casual questers and those who do PvP and trials. I hardly see any PvPers that spend a lot of time questing as well. Likewise, I notice that casual questers will avoid PvP AT ALL COSTS, they can't stand it. While it is possible for both extremes to exist within ESO, the developers were still in a tough spot.

In retrospect, it seems like an odd choice, but not from the POV when ESO began development.

I don't remember all of the details anymore, but the key is that ESO began development before Skyrim. Skyrim's success brought the Elder Scrolls universe into the mainstream and that changed everything.

When ESO began development in 2007, WoW was the revenue king of the gaming universe based on it's subscription model. Zenimax created ZOS to develop it with key members of Mythic entertainment who were famous for their PVP MMOs, DAOC and Warhammer Online. PVP was intended to be a BIG part of ESO.

However, between 2007 and 2014, the gaming landscape changed incredibly. It was no longer dominated by core and hardcore gamers. Most single player games had all challenges removed to the point they became impossible to lose at, and Online games were starting to follow this trend. Gaming had become mainstream. People who used to watch tv 6 hours a day, now played games. So games became more akin to interactive entertainment.

So when ESO was introduced with challenging content, the Skyrim casuals balked at it. They literally raged about vet content which began with Caldwell's Silver.

Additionally, ESO had a bad launch. It was extremely buggy. Probably because they had to change so much about a game influenced more by Oblivion to meet the expectations of Skyrim players. Cyrodiil, as we all know, didn't work properly. Part of it was they didn't anticipate how good players would play it (weaving, executing abilities at the gcd), and part of it was the technology intended to address lag didn't work for whatever reason. Probably because development resources shifted to the PVE side of the game to get it launched.

By now I think that the majority of the population is casual. Both end game PvP and PvE have lost the majority of its players. The choice for who to make content for is more clear.

If we could get a game with something similar to ESO's original combat system as well as something resembling Cyrodiil and BGs that ISN'T attached to the Elder Scrolls IP, we could really have something nice.

The battle is over for sure. ESO is not the challenging MMO it was designed to be. It was completely refactored as an uiltracasual "Online RPG". That was made clear by Oakensoul. As someone who completed vMA in the patch it was introduced, I was so sad recently to watch a casual streamer complete it entirely via 1 bar heavy attacks!

With all that said, the attempt ZOS made to bring its casual audience to PVP failed. They nerfed their own mechanics to oblivion and its casual audience still hates Cyrodiil.

So why not refactor it back to something closer to its original design? It still has the potential to be a popular PVP game if players only interested in PVP didn't have to jump through hundreds of hours of casual PVE hoops.

I don't think they need to separate it from the Elder Scrolls IP. I can imagine a variety of ways they could do it, but I agree the best approach would be to make a separate product. I have long wished for a standalone F2P (with micro-transactions) Alliance War game based around Cyrodiil, IC and maybe a few other world zones. It could be a huge success if implemented correctly with redesigned combat so players can't break the server.

I know it's something Zenimax would never have done, but Microsoft Gaming might be different if they had it pitched to them.