CC combo?

moo_2021

I'm trying to work out a formula of CC combo that can neutralize those unkillable pro players.

So far I observed:

- Untargeted CC like Arctic Wind is bad because the opportunity can't be exploited and victims gain immunity
- Repeated stun, pause a few seconds and then immobilizing seems able to disrupt rotations or at least halt melee attacks

Since NB has fear, what if I turn it into a full package: stun -> wait til break free -> immobilize -> wait til dodge -> fear -> wait til break free -> snare. Although the only source for NB snare is poison and it's uncontrollable. The waiting is for their anti-immobilizing ability to expire, so they'd have to keep using it, which drains resource.


Does this sound like a good idea?

i11ionward

moo_2021 wrote: »

I'm trying to work out a formula of CC combo that can neutralize those unkillable pro players.

So far I observed:

- Untargeted CC like Arctic Wind is bad because the opportunity can't be exploited and victims gain immunity
- Repeated stun, pause a few seconds and then immobilizing seems able to disrupt rotations or at least halt melee attacks

Since NB has fear, what if I turn it into a full package: stun -> wait til break free -> immobilize -> wait til dodge -> fear -> wait til break free -> snare. Although the only source for NB snare is poison and it's uncontrollable. The waiting is for their anti-immobilizing ability to expire, so they'd have to keep using it, which drains resource.


Does this sound like a good idea?

This is not exactly what you are looking for... But this can neutralize unkillable pro players
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mvrKLAe0Lak&t=0s

DigiAngel

Rush of Agony -> Void Bash

moo_2021

The combination of fear and stun completely failed! It looks like they share the same immunity

El_Borracho

"Pro players" sometimes run cc immunity potions. That, and a player gets cc immunity for a time after breaking free from most cc's so following up with another cc is not going to work. @DigiAngel probably has the best suggestion with RoA

DrNukenstein

Caltrops>Fear is very reliable, sustainable, gives big presence in team fights and is easy to fit into any vampire (or NB) build.

fred4

These videos are old, but here are two of the best discussions I've seen on how PvP actually works. They center on burst and CCs alright.

That said, I'm not convinced the meta revolves entirely around that. Pressure has also been important at various times, and it certainly is today. I also believe that you cannot kill an "unkillable pro" player 1v1 in open world, because they're most likely on a tanky open world spec. Their build revolves around withstanding a 1vX, sometimes to the point where they can only kill squishy players and noobs, and no one else. However, make no mistake. If you come at them with a high-damage, squishy, duelling-focused build, you're playing into their hands. They will likely be dangerous. Maybe you'll beat them, but the skill requirement is mainly your problem. They're playing a forgiving build and they know what they're doing. The longer the fight goes on, the likelihood is that you will draw or they will win.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z6DiGQZ105Y

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bgRmoWuvAy0&list=WL

moo_2021

fred4 wrote: »

That said, I'm not convinced the meta revolves entirely around that. Pressure has also been important at various times, and it certainly is today. I also believe that you cannot kill an "unkillable pro" player 1v1 in open world, because they're most likely on a tanky open world spec. Their build revolves around withstanding a 1vX, sometimes to the point where they can only kill squishy players and noobs, and no one else.

How tanky are we talking about? My 30k HP and resist build can't last a few seconds in 1 vs 3, and each hit is more or less on the level as mine or weaker. HoT doesn't help in such case and the only survival tool is spamming Arcanist's shield.

Yet I frequently encounter those column circling pros in IC. Some of them are not using HA build but have enough sustain and healing to do 1 vs X even without LOS advantage, and can still burst players like me (dk by constant pressure in melee range and arcanist by draining my stamina)

fred4

moo_2021 wrote: »

fred4 wrote: »

That said, I'm not convinced the meta revolves entirely around that. Pressure has also been important at various times, and it certainly is today. I also believe that you cannot kill an "unkillable pro" player 1v1 in open world, because they're most likely on a tanky open world spec. Their build revolves around withstanding a 1vX, sometimes to the point where they can only kill squishy players and noobs, and no one else.

How tanky are we talking about? My 30k HP and resist build can't last a few seconds in 1 vs 3, and each hit is more or less on the level as mine or weaker. HoT doesn't help in such case and the only survival tool is spamming Arcanist's shield.

Yet I frequently encounter those column circling pros in IC. Some of them are not using HA build but have enough sustain and healing to do 1 vs X even without LOS advantage, and can still burst players like me (dk by constant pressure in melee range and arcanist by draining my stamina)

"Tanky" in PvP and PvE are different things. The main component of a tanky PvP build is IMO healing. For example DK is a poster child for healing from everything they do, such as:

• Use an ultimate and heal.
• CC you with Shattering Rocks and heal.
• Keep up Resolving Vigor every 5s and heal.
• Get Major Brutality from Rally and heal.
• Cast their armor buff and get +12% healing while active from a skill line passive.
• Heal every 5s from Cauterize (although Flames of Oblivion is more popular these days).
• Attack you with a Flame Lash combo and heal.
• Attack you with Inhale and heal.
• Attack you with Burning Embers and heal.
• Cast Dragon Blood as an emergency burst heal.
• Stand in Cinder Storm and heal.

In other words, you need to think about how every second skill in your rotation will heal (or shield) you, not just your designated healing skills. A given DK build won't use all of the above options, but you can see from the sheer range of them how you might put a build together that constantly heals. Falling back on your designated burst heal or shield, and spamming that, is a beginner mistake. Those skills are expensive and, therefore, unsustainable.

Start by duelling. This wll teach you how, in an evenly matched situation, offense is your best defense. Offensive skills are cheaper than defensive ones. If you are pressuring your target into defense, you don't need to heal (as much) yourself and you are using fewer resources than them. Turning from defensive play to offensive is difficult to judge and something that only comes with experience, hence duelling.

Don't underestimate LoS. It is one of the strongest protections there is, because you simply won't get hit. If that tanky player is up against peers, he will use it. If he doesn't, that is probably a sign of them having much more fluid, decisive, and accurate decision making than their target(s). No hesitation. PvP doesn't have fixed rotations like PvE, but it does have burst combos, which are mini rotations. An experienced player knows when to open up and stay on the attack for a few seconds, while playing defensive most of the time. For one thing you need to have your buffs up and possibly have ultimate.

I stressed the healing, because I find this is something you have to be very cognizant of when you put a PvP build together. Next is line of sight. That said, other aspects matter too, of course, such as blocking, dodge rolling, (crit) resistances, and so on.

I haven't played Arcanist enough in PvP to know what the meta is, but I have seen some extremely tanky ones. You IMO need Cephaliarc's Flail, because it heals you. If you use Fatecarver, I would always use the Pragmatic one, but I suspect the duelling meta is to not even use that, because the beam leaves you too open (no block, no bash, no dodge roll). I know that the shield skill that is very strong for 1s, and the heal that automatically pops at 50% health, are both highly regarded. However I suspect you may want Vigor on top of that, because ongoing healing is hard to beat.

moo_2021

for attacks that heal, is it only 1/4 strength in PvP or 1/2? Since battle sprite reduces damage and then healing received?

fred4

I believe it is 1/2, e.g. heals that scale from damage are not halved a second time.