They are weak, they need buff

SandandStars · February 17

ive never thought anyone was cheating

with the right gear and class the need to cheat is eliminated 😁

VinnyGambini · February 18

Galeriano wrote: »

VinnyGambini wrote: »

GrigorijMalahevich wrote: »

VinnyGambini wrote: »

This is top tier battlegrounds PC EU (all good players, no noobs, no bad gear):

He's uncatchable, deals INSANE dmg, breaks every record. Yeah this class seriously need buff. Nerf necro and templar instead.

Personally I think even NB is not as strong. UNFAIR.

has it ever crossed your mind that this Azznox guy is just a lot better than you? He has played (probably) one hundred times more BGs than you, has tons more experience than you, knows his class a lot better than you, has a lot better build (due to pure experience) than you and yet you think you should be able to compete with someone who has invested a lot more time than you?

Nah mate, chill

1. I agree my team was kinda trash.
2. I agree that he is very good player - maybe better than me

2 above statements doesn't change fact that sorcerer is S tier, and buffs are big mistake. Can you show me bg with templar or necro archiving 40 kills? I don't really think so.

Only stam sorc can be S tier and only in hands of very experienced player. Saying that sorc just "is S tier" is kinda out of context and slightly misleading. Also I would realistically put experienced stamsorc player in BGs at either A+ or S- tier because class's natural drawbacks can sometimes blow up in his face pretty badly.

Also since You asked

All screenshots are from max lv BGs in U40. I could post more including necro getting 40+ kills but I havn't been doing BGs on necro in U40 and I started to use addon improving BG UI not that long ago so screenshots would not have classes shown. I also had plenty of 30+ kills BGs on that templar. Oh and there was 3 sorcs in enemy teams in that 43/0 match.

Some fair points:

1. All 3 battlegrounds we can see that those teams just totally stomped opponents.
2. None of the templars did 2,5 milion dmg.
3. On third bg templar with 270k dmg scored 17 kills. Everyone knows why.

Considering above, for me there is no doubt, how bad templar is pvp wise, and how good sorc is pvp wise. I'm 100% positive, that buffing sorc is bad idea.

Galeriano · February 18

VinnyGambini wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

VinnyGambini wrote: »

GrigorijMalahevich wrote: »

VinnyGambini wrote: »

This is top tier battlegrounds PC EU (all good players, no noobs, no bad gear):

He's uncatchable, deals INSANE dmg, breaks every record. Yeah this class seriously need buff. Nerf necro and templar instead.

Personally I think even NB is not as strong. UNFAIR.

has it ever crossed your mind that this Azznox guy is just a lot better than you? He has played (probably) one hundred times more BGs than you, has tons more experience than you, knows his class a lot better than you, has a lot better build (due to pure experience) than you and yet you think you should be able to compete with someone who has invested a lot more time than you?

Nah mate, chill

1. I agree my team was kinda trash.
2. I agree that he is very good player - maybe better than me

2 above statements doesn't change fact that sorcerer is S tier, and buffs are big mistake. Can you show me bg with templar or necro archiving 40 kills? I don't really think so.

Only stam sorc can be S tier and only in hands of very experienced player. Saying that sorc just "is S tier" is kinda out of context and slightly misleading. Also I would realistically put experienced stamsorc player in BGs at either A+ or S- tier because class's natural drawbacks can sometimes blow up in his face pretty badly.

Also since You asked

All screenshots are from max lv BGs in U40. I could post more including necro getting 40+ kills but I havn't been doing BGs on necro in U40 and I started to use addon improving BG UI not that long ago so screenshots would not have classes shown. I also had plenty of 30+ kills BGs on that templar. Oh and there was 3 sorcs in enemy teams in that 43/0 match.

Some fair points:

1. All 3 battlegrounds we can see that those teams just totally stomped opponents.
2. None of the templars did 2,5 milion dmg.
3. On third bg templar with 270k dmg scored 17 kills. Everyone knows why.

Considering above, for me there is no doubt, how bad templar is pvp wise, and how good sorc is pvp wise. I'm 100% positive, that buffing sorc is bad idea.

1. In battleground You've linked Your team also got stomped due to massive skill gap between Your team and team that had sorc in question. My screen number 2 with 45/0 have very similar KD ratios to the one You linked. LIke I said in one of my earlier posts I play on PC EU and I know most of the people in Your BG and I can safely say that red team was just way better. Unfair matchmaking just happens.

2. Completly irrelevant. Overall dmg is usually dependant on Your build structure and DoT setups will usually produce more dmg than burst setups which doesn't mean they're better. They just often need more dmg and more time to kill an enemy and in that time they will be producing lots of free dmg that often do not contribute to the kill itself . If You just run around and apply DoTs on everyone You will obvioulsy produce more dmg than someone who is just jumping on enemies with a burst combo but that doesn't mean You're a better dmg dealer. I was in BGs where I did 4/5+ millions of damage and I had like 10 kills and I was also in matches where I had less than 1M dmg and got 40 kills with no execute in my setup. My record dmg in BG is over 7M and I had only 12 kills in that match. Sometimes less is more and at the end of the day 43-56 kills with 1,5M dmg is more than 38 kills with 2,5M.

3. Why You focus on templar that had 17 kill when top templar had 56? Yeah templar can be a killstealer with a beam, so can sorc with endless fury. And beam is actually very powerfull tool which You kinda admit with Your point.

You wanted to see some 40+ kills matches done by templar, doubting it's possible. You got ones. At this point it seems like You just want to belive that You all got stomped because sorc is unbalanced not because that sorc's team was just way better than Yours with that particular sorc player being above all the other players in that match skill wise. Templar in proper hands is actually one of the best counters to stamsorc in BGs. While stamsorc can be strong in hands of a proper player magsorc is in considerably worse shape and it's a magsorc that is getting buffed. Stamsorcs is passively getting nerfed in new patch due to master DW nerf and stamsorc is heavily reliant on proc sets to perform well. If You think sorc is that strong on its own I reccomend You to try it. I guarantee You will see that You felt victim to thinking that grass was greener on the other side of the fence.

Aznox · February 18

If that can reassure you @VinnyGambini , I'll just say that given the current state of PTS, I'm not even planning to integrate the to-be-buffed sorc abilities into my solo BG build, where stamsorc can survive with just streak and dark deal as magicka spenders. There are other types of content where they will be helpful but I'm not seeing stamsorc currently quite as dominant there.

Agree with @Galeriano that total dmg output - even if I find it a fun goal - is very build dependent, for example as a sorc you always want a few long running DoTs on several opponents to keep procing surge when on the defense.

Anyway, for top scores (like a single screenshot), build will be the main factor (well before class choice that will only show in consistency over a larger dataset), and I found it funny that there's a forum post atm asking for a shattered buff ... which is one of the sets I'm running.

Wilku1909 · February 19

Just out of curiosity, @Aznox templars are the biggest counters for sorcs like you? Do you often have problems with them?

Jierdanit · February 19

Wilku1909 wrote: »

Just out of curiosity, @Aznox templars are the biggest counters for sorcs like you? Do you often have problems with them?

The main reason that Templars are very dangerous for Sorcs is the execute beam.

StamSorc has no burst heal outside of Dark Deal, which has a cast time, so they can't just block and burst heal when they drop low.
That leaves very little counterplay against templars once you're in execute range.

That means you're forced to play very careful as soon as you're fighting at least 1 Templar.
Because once you drop below about 40% hp the only counter you have to Beam is an ult like Vampire Scion, Undo or Resto Ult and if you don't have access to those you're mostly just dead.

Wilku1909 · February 19

Jierdanit wrote: »

Wilku1909 wrote: »

Just out of curiosity, @Aznox templars are the biggest counters for sorcs like you? Do you often have problems with them?

The main reason that Templars are very dangerous for Sorcs is the execute beam.

StamSorc has no burst heal outside of Dark Deal, which has a cast time, so they can't just block and burst heal when they drop low.
That leaves very little counterplay against templars once you're in execute range.

That means you're forced to play very careful as soon as you're fighting at least 1 Templar.
Because once you drop below about 40% hp the only counter you have to Beam is an ult like Vampire Scion, Undo or Resto Ult and if you don't have access to those you're mostly just dead.

Or streak or bash to interupt...

Jierdanit · February 19

Wilku1909 wrote: »

Jierdanit wrote: »

Wilku1909 wrote: »

Just out of curiosity, @Aznox templars are the biggest counters for sorcs like you? Do you often have problems with them?

The main reason that Templars are very dangerous for Sorcs is the execute beam.

StamSorc has no burst heal outside of Dark Deal, which has a cast time, so they can't just block and burst heal when they drop low.
That leaves very little counterplay against templars once you're in execute range.

That means you're forced to play very careful as soon as you're fighting at least 1 Templar.
Because once you drop below about 40% hp the only counter you have to Beam is an ult like Vampire Scion, Undo or Resto Ult and if you don't have access to those you're mostly just dead.

Or streak or bash to interupt...

Yes if they're not CC immune or if you can streak behind LoS.

The problem still remains that you're not burst healing during any of that and they can just Beam you again once the interrupt CD is over.

Also I'm not trying to say StamSorc is weak, just that templars can be pretty hard to deal with, especially for inexperienced StamSorcs.

Galeriano · February 19

Wilku1909 wrote: »

Jierdanit wrote: »

Wilku1909 wrote: »

Just out of curiosity, @Aznox templars are the biggest counters for sorcs like you? Do you often have problems with them?

The main reason that Templars are very dangerous for Sorcs is the execute beam.

StamSorc has no burst heal outside of Dark Deal, which has a cast time, so they can't just block and burst heal when they drop low.
That leaves very little counterplay against templars once you're in execute range.

That means you're forced to play very careful as soon as you're fighting at least 1 Templar.
Because once you drop below about 40% hp the only counter you have to Beam is an ult like Vampire Scion, Undo or Resto Ult and if you don't have access to those you're mostly just dead.

Or streak or bash to interupt...

Thing with this methods is that they will not always work. Beam in PvP have 36+ meters so it requires up to 3 streaks to effectively get away from it which means sometimes it would take more time that whole beam duration and keep in mind You won't be using any burst heal during that time. Templar may be using toppling charge so he can just jump on You when You streak away since streak teleports You 15 meters when toppling charge have 22 meters range. Similar issue may happen with bashing. Sometimes You need to first get into meele reach of the templar and he will often javelin You right before beam to make interrupting harder. Even things as simple as uneven terrain or map edges can make streaking in that situation problematic. Templar can be also CC immune while beaming making interrupting of his beam impossible. First tick of beam happens almost instantly sometimes even before animation plays out so if You're low enough on HP before You interrupt beam, that first tick will deal enough dmg to make things hard. Bash just buys 3 additional seconds of not being beamed but for a setup without effective instant cast burstheal and with pretty low base regens it may be not long enough to recover from low HP especially if under pressure from DoTs, gap closer or both. And it's not like that templar will be always running alone waiting for a fair duel, so interrupting may not be always that easily accesible option.

It's obviously still possible to survive being beamed but it requires way more hustle than on almost every other setup and usually needs to be planned ahead and executed without even slightest mistake.

With burst heal that have a cast time and heals for like a half of what other class burst heals do, things are not always that obvious and easy like for other classes. This is why despite stamsorc's potential to be strong there really isn't that many strong stamsorc players in PvP.

Wilku1909 · February 19

Jierdanit wrote: »

Wilku1909 wrote: »

Jierdanit wrote: »

Wilku1909 wrote: »

Just out of curiosity, @Aznox templars are the biggest counters for sorcs like you? Do you often have problems with them?

The main reason that Templars are very dangerous for Sorcs is the execute beam.

StamSorc has no burst heal outside of Dark Deal, which has a cast time, so they can't just block and burst heal when they drop low.
That leaves very little counterplay against templars once you're in execute range.

That means you're forced to play very careful as soon as you're fighting at least 1 Templar.
Because once you drop below about 40% hp the only counter you have to Beam is an ult like Vampire Scion, Undo or Resto Ult and if you don't have access to those you're mostly just dead.

Or streak or bash to interupt...

Yes if they're not CC immune or if you can streak behind LoS.

The problem still remains that you're not burst healing during any of that and they can just Beam you again once the interrupt CD is over.

Also I'm not trying to say StamSorc is weak, just that templars can be pretty hard to deal with, especially for inexperienced StamSorcs.

I know what you mean, I just wanted to ask @Aznox how it looks like from his perspective, how often he has problems fighting against templars as they were called here "best counter" for sorcs. From my perspective (average pvp player, far from top) I don't see many op templars compering to other classes. For example, on my templar all my sets gives me some kind of dmg except 1pc armor of trainee and still, often it's not enought to finish someone with beam (it's great in stealing someone frag).

Aznox · February 19

A skilled templar packing enough damage is indeed one of the greatest threats to glasscanon stamsorc in BG.

I say threat as in "adding deaths to your score", but while other classes might not be as well equipped to finish you, they are just as much able to ruin your day by putting you on the run and chasing you aggressively, if the player is competent enough to not overextend himself while doing so.

Beam alone isn't what's dangerous, as it is possible to block-streak away from the templar and be out of charge range when the beam ends.

The problem appears when you add javelin into the mix, now (if you are not CC immune), you need to gamble between block-streak (good chance to die if a javelin comes mid-streak) and dodge-streak (you can dodge during the streak animation) which means taking full damage from the beam.

So yes, I try to set my "gtfo health level" slightly higher when there's a good templar running javelin.

Galeriano · February 20

Wilku1909 wrote: »

Jierdanit wrote: »

Wilku1909 wrote: »

Jierdanit wrote: »

Wilku1909 wrote: »

Just out of curiosity, @Aznox templars are the biggest counters for sorcs like you? Do you often have problems with them?

The main reason that Templars are very dangerous for Sorcs is the execute beam.

StamSorc has no burst heal outside of Dark Deal, which has a cast time, so they can't just block and burst heal when they drop low.
That leaves very little counterplay against templars once you're in execute range.

That means you're forced to play very careful as soon as you're fighting at least 1 Templar.
Because once you drop below about 40% hp the only counter you have to Beam is an ult like Vampire Scion, Undo or Resto Ult and if you don't have access to those you're mostly just dead.

Or streak or bash to interupt...

Yes if they're not CC immune or if you can streak behind LoS.

The problem still remains that you're not burst healing during any of that and they can just Beam you again once the interrupt CD is over.

Also I'm not trying to say StamSorc is weak, just that templars can be pretty hard to deal with, especially for inexperienced StamSorcs.

I know what you mean, I just wanted to ask @Aznox how it looks like from his perspective, how often he has problems fighting against templars as they were called here "best counter" for sorcs. From my perspective (average pvp player, far from top) I don't see many op templars compering to other classes. For example, on my templar all my sets gives me some kind of dmg except 1pc armor of trainee and still, often it's not enought to finish someone with beam (it's great in stealing someone frag).

I don't see anyone in this thread calling templar a "best counter for sorcs". If You are reffering to what I said than I called templar "one of the best counters to stamsorc in BGs". Quite a big difference.

You won't see many OP stamsorcs comparing to other classes either. If You think stamsorc is just OP on its own You are free to try it. There is a high chance You will come back to a templar pretty quick.

Major_Toughness · February 20

Galeriano wrote: »

Wilku1909 wrote: »

Jierdanit wrote: »

Wilku1909 wrote: »

Jierdanit wrote: »

Wilku1909 wrote: »

Just out of curiosity, @Aznox templars are the biggest counters for sorcs like you? Do you often have problems with them?

The main reason that Templars are very dangerous for Sorcs is the execute beam.

StamSorc has no burst heal outside of Dark Deal, which has a cast time, so they can't just block and burst heal when they drop low.
That leaves very little counterplay against templars once you're in execute range.

That means you're forced to play very careful as soon as you're fighting at least 1 Templar.
Because once you drop below about 40% hp the only counter you have to Beam is an ult like Vampire Scion, Undo or Resto Ult and if you don't have access to those you're mostly just dead.

Or streak or bash to interupt...

Yes if they're not CC immune or if you can streak behind LoS.

The problem still remains that you're not burst healing during any of that and they can just Beam you again once the interrupt CD is over.

Also I'm not trying to say StamSorc is weak, just that templars can be pretty hard to deal with, especially for inexperienced StamSorcs.

I know what you mean, I just wanted to ask @Aznox how it looks like from his perspective, how often he has problems fighting against templars as they were called here "best counter" for sorcs. From my perspective (average pvp player, far from top) I don't see many op templars compering to other classes. For example, on my templar all my sets gives me some kind of dmg except 1pc armor of trainee and still, often it's not enought to finish someone with beam (it's great in stealing someone frag).

I don't see anyone in this thread calling templar a "best counter for sorcs". If You are reffering to what I said than I called templar "one of the best counters to stamsorc in BGs". Quite a big difference.

You won't see many OP stamsorcs comparing to other classes either. If You think stamsorc is just OP on its own You are free to try it. There is a high chance You will come back to a templar pretty quick.

Stamsorc is so much better than Templar, especially in BGs.

Templars are pretty much resigned to running tanky and stealing kills with beam.

Galeriano · February 20

Major_Toughness wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

Wilku1909 wrote: »

Jierdanit wrote: »

Wilku1909 wrote: »

Jierdanit wrote: »

Wilku1909 wrote: »

Just out of curiosity, @Aznox templars are the biggest counters for sorcs like you? Do you often have problems with them?

The main reason that Templars are very dangerous for Sorcs is the execute beam.

StamSorc has no burst heal outside of Dark Deal, which has a cast time, so they can't just block and burst heal when they drop low.
That leaves very little counterplay against templars once you're in execute range.

That means you're forced to play very careful as soon as you're fighting at least 1 Templar.
Because once you drop below about 40% hp the only counter you have to Beam is an ult like Vampire Scion, Undo or Resto Ult and if you don't have access to those you're mostly just dead.

Or streak or bash to interupt...

Yes if they're not CC immune or if you can streak behind LoS.

The problem still remains that you're not burst healing during any of that and they can just Beam you again once the interrupt CD is over.

Also I'm not trying to say StamSorc is weak, just that templars can be pretty hard to deal with, especially for inexperienced StamSorcs.

I know what you mean, I just wanted to ask @Aznox how it looks like from his perspective, how often he has problems fighting against templars as they were called here "best counter" for sorcs. From my perspective (average pvp player, far from top) I don't see many op templars compering to other classes. For example, on my templar all my sets gives me some kind of dmg except 1pc armor of trainee and still, often it's not enought to finish someone with beam (it's great in stealing someone frag).

I don't see anyone in this thread calling templar a "best counter for sorcs". If You are reffering to what I said than I called templar "one of the best counters to stamsorc in BGs". Quite a big difference.

You won't see many OP stamsorcs comparing to other classes either. If You think stamsorc is just OP on its own You are free to try it. There is a high chance You will come back to a templar pretty quick.

Stamsorc is so much better than Templar, especially in BGs.

Templars are pretty much resigned to running tanky and stealing kills with beam.

And is anything I said suggesting otherwise?

When it comes to stamsorc it's as good as player behind it and it's really punishing for less experienced players.

I wouldn't say though that all templar can do is building defensively and spamming beam. it's definietly the easiest choice but not the only one that class have. Running tanky and spamming beam is more of a player's choice.

Wilku1909 · February 20

Galeriano wrote: »

I don't see anyone in this thread calling templar a "best counter for sorcs". If You are reffering to what I said than I called templar "one of the best counters to stamsorc in BGs". Quite a big difference.

You won't see many OP stamsorcs comparing to other classes either. If You think stamsorc is just OP on its own You are free to try it. There is a high chance You will come back to a templar pretty quick.

Just like I don't see anyone saying that beeing op stamsorc doesn't require skill.
All I wanted to know is how big problem for experienced sorcerers are templars, because from my perspective if there was anyone who was completely dominating bg and destroying everyone almost always it was sorcerer.

Aznox · February 20

There's definitely less players tryharding PC EU BG on templar than there are on arcanist/sorc/nb/dk

But I can think if at least 2 "templar main" that will end up in the top 2-3 spots everytime. Would they do even better on another class? I can't say.