Let Us Work for Stuff

Shagreth · February 13

ESO has a broken reward system, part of the problem is how almost everything is tradeable, and most of the time just downright easy to get. Make more bind-on-pickup cosmetics for us to work for, the new Nerevar blade etc. from the anniversary event is a good place to start.
@ZOS_Kevin

Malyore · February 14

You want cosmetics which don't change the gameplay to be super difficult to get? Why?

What about gear and equipment, do you feel that's at a good spot? Some cosmetics are even harder to get than gear, such as trifecta runs. Most cosmetics are in limited time crown crates which can take real life money or endeavor seals, both of which have to be worked for.

RetPing · February 14

Absolutely no, thanks.
ESO has this tradition to hide things behind bad RNG where you have to grind hours and hours to get a thnig, I'm tired of this.
I have several hundreds milions of gold in bank, let me spend those and give money to people that need it. Win-Win

HowlKimchi · February 14

RetPing wrote: »

Absolutely no, thanks.
ESO has this tradition to hide things behind bad RNG where you have to grind hours and hours to get a thnig, I'm tired of this.
I have several hundreds milions of gold in bank, let me spend those and give money to people that need it. Win-Win

One, how do you have several hundreds of millions of gold in your bank and, two, can i have some

Shagreth · February 14

RetPing wrote: »

Absolutely no, thanks.
ESO has this tradition to hide things behind bad RNG where you have to grind hours and hours to get a thnig, I'm tired of this.
I have several hundreds milions of gold in bank, let me spend those and give money to people that need it. Win-Win

ESO barely has anything to grind for, we must be playing a different game. Also, not everyone has millions of gold. (lol) If you're talking about leads then it's funny, as they are all dirt easy to get. But I get it, ESO players hate having to work for anything, I've seen countless threads about leads etc. so I'm familiar with the sentiment.

I happen to have experience with every big mmorpg game out there, save some odd Asian ones, 'the grind' in ESO is almost nonexistent. Spending gold or money gets you almost everything and that is a big problem.

fizzylu · February 14

Oh, I thought this was going to be a thread about how too many things are crown store only or from RNG drops....

colossalvoids · February 14

Alternatively they can add things without mentioning it on PTS, just drop them for obscure activities with a low drop chance for people to find out themselves, should be done semi regularly though. For example make trueflame appear even without an event, on some unknown to us dates to surprise fishermans, etc. ESO lacks a surprise elements and any sort of mystery.

Definitely less "rewards" in crates please zos, ty. It's a fully priced game you're buying every year.

ApoAlaia · February 14

I see where you are coming from but no thanks.

I'm all up for better and more diverse in-game rewards at every skill/commitment level rather than having most of the 'shinies' come from the crown store however trade is also an integral part of the MMORPG experience.

New/desirable/'shiny' character/account bound 'virtual goods' have to be balanced with tradeable ones otherwise this important element of the game stagnates.

Furthermore it unduly punishes players who may be proficient at commerce but might find mindless 'grindathons' ill use of their time and skills.

Please bear in mind that more than one approach to 'working towards a goal' exists, all equally acceptable and not mutually exclusive.

EF321 · February 14

colossalvoids wrote: »

For example make trueflame appear even without an event, on some unknown to us dates to surprise fishermans, etc. ESO lacks a surprise elements and any sort of mystery.

Imagine fishing for drop that does not happen anymore, but no one knows it.

ApoAlaia · February 14

EF321 wrote: »

colossalvoids wrote: »

For example make trueflame appear even without an event, on some unknown to us dates to surprise fishermans, etc. ESO lacks a surprise elements and any sort of mystery.

Imagine fishing for drop that does not happen anymore, but no one knows it.

Imagine doing content for something that should be dropping but for one reason or another isn't and due to RNG takes many runs by many players to conclude that it is in fact not dropping.

Now imagine that you are 'officially' told that they have looked into it and it is in fact dropping fine and there is nothing wrong even though all the evidence points to the contrary only for further down the line being told 'oopsie, it will be addressed on a future hotfix/patch'.

Oh wait, you don't need to imagine it because this is something that has happened multiple times.

I will hard pass on the surprise element when it comes to drops, thanks. Keep the surprise to random encounters and other 'flavour' elements.

Vaqual · February 14

ApoAlaia wrote: »

Please bear in mind that more than one approach to 'working towards a goal' exists, all equally acceptable and not mutually exclusive.

I like that I can bypass some grind and RNG by trading, but I don't think that is necessarily the best philosophy for all rewards. For example, the mount from IA can be farmed only by doing IA. It takes quite a few runs, but it is actually a nice little goal that gives short daily runs a bit of a purpose. I also don't like grinds, but this is something that is purely cosmetical, easily achievable and in the worst of cases something, that you can be helped with. There is no urgency to get this. I think adding some rewards like this to the game is perfectly valid and a good motivation. I also think this is the kind of stuff OP is talking about and I really agree with this perspective.
Ideally these rewards do not grant combat bonuses, as grinding for power is a huge turn off for most casual players and players without a lot of time. But some cosmetical items, pets, furnishings, titles and mounts - maybe even houses - could certainly be given (free of RNG) for some long-term achievements as pull factors for otherwise unrewarding, but interesting content types. The daily quests for the zones offer little incentive in many cases, as you can get most things from the coffers from other players (except leads and there the time gate is

) and you have to deal with the randomness. Maybe just attach an achievement or tracker quest that rewards one "pick from a loot table" box for doing the dailies x-times and put some creative and thematic BoP things in there for "really defending western skyrim against harrowstorms, seriously".

ApoAlaia · February 14

Vaqual wrote: »

ApoAlaia wrote: »

Please bear in mind that more than one approach to 'working towards a goal' exists, all equally acceptable and not mutually exclusive.

I like that I can bypass some grind and RNG by trading, but I don't think that is necessarily the best philosophy for all rewards. For example, the mount from IA can be farmed only by doing IA. It takes quite a few runs, but it is actually a nice little goal that gives short daily runs a bit of a purpose. I also don't like grinds, but this is something that is purely cosmetical, easily achievable and in the worst of cases something, that you can be helped with. There is no urgency to get this. I think adding some rewards like this to the game is perfectly valid and a good motivation. I also think this is the kind of stuff OP is talking about and I really agree with this perspective.
Ideally these rewards do not grant combat bonuses, as grinding for power is a huge turn off for most casual players and players without a lot of time. But some cosmetical items, pets, furnishings, titles and mounts - maybe even houses - could certainly be given (free of RNG) for some long-term achievements as pull factors for otherwise unrewarding, but interesting content types. The daily quests for the zones offer little incentive in many cases, as you can get most things from the coffers from other players (except leads and there the time gate is ) and you have to deal with the randomness. Maybe just attach an achievement or tracker quest that rewards one "pick from a loot table" box for doing the dailies x-times and put some creative and thematic BoP things in there for "really defending western skyrim against harrowstorms, seriously".

That I personally don't see a problem with.

In fact in the case of IA is not only predictable in nature but also self-limiting due to the fact that only one 'consumable' a day is guaranteed - the chances of getting further consumables as loot during the IA runs being vanishingly small - which somewhat discourages pathological behaviours.

Is a delayed yet guaranteed reward - which (in my opinions) is a 'healthier' way to 'tickle' the reward mechanism of our brains.

I wouldn't mind more of this and less RNG personally when it comes to 'shinies'.

The Uninvited · February 14

No, thank you. For work I have a job.

Shagreth · February 14

The Uninvited wrote: »

No, thank you. For work I have a job.

This argument always makes me chuckle. It's like the rest of us "hardcore folk" that want some sort of challenge or something to aim for receive money and sustenance from the sky. Yes, I work, a very hard job (fyi carpenter plus varnishing jobs) yet I still don't like things getting handed to me. Having most stuff not being earnable and instead being just one short walk to the vendor or a swipe with your credit card is beyond bad design and downright unfun. To give some credit to Zeni - it has gotten a little better lately, but not much.

And yes @Vaqual I'm talking about cosmetics, be it mounts, pets, furniture, titles, the game simply doesn't have enough earnable stuff like that. Nothing that gives the player any sort of power.

The Uninvited · February 14

Shagreth wrote: »

It's like the rest of us "hardcore folk" that want some sort of challenge or something to aim for receive money and sustenance from the sky.

That's not what I meant, but I think you know that.

Since you're only talking cosmetics here, I can agree up to a certain point. Leads for mythic items however, should not be locked behind harder content (which I play too) because of the RNG factor. If it's locked behind a veteran trial, make sure it's a guaranteed drop when completing hard mode for example.

Shagreth · February 14

The Uninvited wrote: »

Since you're only talking cosmetics here, I can agree up to a certain point. Leads for mythic items however, should not be locked behind harder content (which I play too) because of the RNG factor. If it's locked behind a veteran trial, make sure it's a guaranteed drop when completing hard mode for example.

No objections there.

Tannus15 · February 14

i never cease to be amazed that dungeon cosmetics, named after the boss of a dungeon, cannot be acquired by doing the dungeon, only by buying it from the cash shop.

madness.

how about once you have collected all sets from a dungeon there is a % chance of a BOP style page for the arms sets. and not 0.01%.

5% normal
10% vet
20% HM

Tannus15 · February 14

Since i'm on my favourite soap box, can we also get some of the older crown only houses made available for gold.

Earth tear cavern for example. Put it behind some craglorn completion achievements to encourage people to complete the zone and make it 8 mil gold or something. I don't care. It's bene out since March 9th, 2017 for crying out loud.

Start some sort of pipeline between the cash shop and the game.

Put a few mounts in zones, like a camel in alik'r desert and a wolf in wrothgar. I'm not saying everything needs to end up in the game, but c'mon, throw us a bone here.

It doesn't even cost addition development time. It's not like you need to create additional assets, just throw some achievement requirements and a gold cost.
easiest win of your life, community is happy, the cooler stuff is still in the shop.

merpins · February 14

More cosmetics available to be earned in game is great. How that should actually be implemented is up in the air. I don't like the endeavor system, the crown crates, or the cash shop as options. cash shop is one thing, but crown crates are much more predatory. A mix of easy, medium, and hard to achieve in-game would be great.

Shagreth · February 15

merpins wrote: »

More cosmetics available to be earned in game is great. How that should actually be implemented is up in the air. I don't like the endeavor system, the crown crates, or the cash shop as options. cash shop is one thing, but crown crates are much more predatory. A mix of easy, medium, and hard to achieve in-game would be great.

I know it will never happen because no-one played it before when it existed, but people may remember that harder overland was a thing before One Tamriel, the devs think that nobody cared because it was too difficult, but no, it failed because it was not rewarding enough. @ZOS_Kevin @ZOS_GinaBruno you guys are probably tired of hearing about harder overland, but imagine a world were you can earn some crown stuff by playing. Trust me, we'd love that. Seals of Endeavor don't cut it, nothing fun there.

notyuu · February 15

more BoP cosmetics to grind for?
sure sounds good, PROVIDED that the cosmtics are not subject to limited time availability.

If said cosmetic is subject to limited time availability then they should be tradable due to the fact that a majority of players can't afford to sit down at their computer and grind for 15 hours a day to get the 0.02% drop chance trueflame page due to having responsibilities, thus excluding them would not only be counter productive but also reduce the likelyhood that they'll partake in future events (which is a BAD thing)

Mayrael · February 15

We have players on each side - those who want to collect every possible item (collectors), those who only want to gather what they need here and now (utilitarians), and also those who enjoy finding something interesting (explorers).

It's hard to please every group, but I think each of them should get something. The idea of randomness is quite interesting because I believe it would be more exciting for everyone if regular activities gave us a small chance at some exciting loot. On the other hand, collectors don't want randomness because it makes completing collections harder. However, a solution could be a system similar to that used for item sets, namely curating drops. This way, they would always get something new for their collection. In such a situation, utilitarians are disadvantaged because they need specific loot. For them, the option to purchase items should remain, with a sufficiently large pool of items to drop and a properly adjusted chance of dropping to make them exclusive enough not to become common loot. This will ensure that collectors and explorers feel excitement from the drop, while those who seek immediate satisfaction can purchase items for a sufficiently high fee.

Of course, just like with many collectibles, the discussed item could be hidden in a sort of packaging that would be possible to sell, but upon opening, it would fill our collection, thus depriving us of the chance for another drop of that item. So, just like with item sets, one would have to make the decision to either keep or sell it.

Shagreth · February 15

Mayrael wrote: »

We have players on each side - those who want to collect every possible item (collectors), those who only want to gather what they need here and now (utilitarians), and also those who enjoy finding something interesting (explorers).

It's hard to please every group, but I think each of them should get something. The idea of randomness is quite interesting because I believe it would be more exciting for everyone if regular activities gave us a small chance at some exciting loot. On the other hand, collectors don't want randomness because it makes completing collections harder. However, a solution could be a system similar to that used for item sets, namely curating drops. This way, they would always get something new for their collection. In such a situation, utilitarians are disadvantaged because they need specific loot. For them, the option to purchase items should remain, with a sufficiently large pool of items to drop and a properly adjusted chance of dropping to make them exclusive enough not to become common loot. This will ensure that collectors and explorers feel excitement from the drop, while those who seek immediate satisfaction can purchase items for a sufficiently high fee.

Of course, just like with many collectibles, the discussed item could be hidden in a sort of packaging that would be possible to sell, but upon opening, it would fill our collection, thus depriving us of the chance for another drop of that item. So, just like with item sets, one would have to make the decision to either keep or sell it.

Good feedback right there. They could tie this somehow with a harder Overland option. The power creep in ESO is the worst I've seen in ANY game in my 30 years of gaming, left untreated since One Tamriel and now an open gushing wound that festers, what shocks me is that most people seem to be fine with it. @ZOS_Kevin Pardon the constant tags, but there is some good feedback here, one can hope that one day you'll do something about it.

Skoomah · February 17

Shagreth wrote: »

ESO has a broken reward system, part of the problem is how almost everything is tradeable, and most of the time just downright easy to get. Make more bind-on-pickup cosmetics for us to work for, the new Nerevar blade etc. from the anniversary event is a good place to start.
@ZOS_Kevin

Did you finish your entire sticker book and all achievements in the game and every play mode (pve, pvp, housing, fashion, trading, etc) and stream and run a guild and buy all crown crates yet and listen through every quest?

Gray_howling_parrot · February 17

RetPing wrote: »

Absolutely no, thanks.
ESO has this tradition to hide things behind bad RNG where you have to grind hours and hours to get a thnig, I'm tired of this.
I have several hundreds milions of gold in bank, let me spend those and give money to people that need it. Win-Win

Yea let's just pay for everything with real money! Why have any in-game rewards when I can just buy gold with crowns right?

Absolutely not. ESO sorely needs more in-game earnable cosmetics including mounts and pets. 95% of earnable mounts in the game are behind the store. You're playing an MMO. Every single MMO has RNG systems in it. Id love to see a mixture of sure-fire rewards from completing a variety of content - more things like the horse from IA and the nix-ox steed from the meta achievement in Necrom - along with rare drops.

Gray_howling_parrot · February 17

Skoomah wrote: »

Shagreth wrote: »

ESO has a broken reward system, part of the problem is how almost everything is tradeable, and most of the time just downright easy to get. Make more bind-on-pickup cosmetics for us to work for, the new Nerevar blade etc. from the anniversary event is a good place to start.
@ZOS_Kevin

Did you finish your entire sticker book and all achievements in the game and every play mode (pve, pvp, housing, fashion, trading, etc) and stream and run a guild and buy all crown crates yet and listen through every quest?

This statement is completely out-of-touch with the original post.

Asking for cosmetics to earn in game is an excellent ask. The stickerbook =/= cosmetics, this is just a way to reconstruct gear. Also, most achievements don't reward you with mounts, cosmetics, etc. Most cosmetics are purchasable in the crown store along with quite literally 95% of mounts. Asking to earn more of this stuff rather than pay real money for it is a great thing to ask. Unless you're a die hard fan of microtransactions.

Shagreth · February 17

Cooperharley wrote: »

This statement is completely out-of-touch with the original post.

Asking for cosmetics to earn in game is an excellent ask. The stickerbook =/= cosmetics, this is just a way to reconstruct gear. Also, most achievements don't reward you with mounts, cosmetics, etc. Most cosmetics are purchasable in the crown store along with quite literally 95% of mounts. Asking to earn more of this stuff rather than pay real money for it is a great thing to ask. Unless you're a die hard fan of microtransactions.

Pretty sure he was being sarcastic, at least I hope so.

p.s. I agree with every single point that you have made

XSTRONG · February 17

Trading is a big part of Eso, what do players grind the most? A mount locked behind a really really hard achievement or rare items that you can sell for gold.

I know the answer so I guess Zos knows to.

Finedaible · February 17

Perhaps the saddest thing about the ESO community is that the cash shop and gambling crates are so ingrained into its mentality by now that to think of enjoy playing a game for worthwhile rewards is now considered preposterous.

I remember the Elinhir Arena Lion pet was a goal I set myself towards earning years ago because I thought it was a pretty cool pet to show off for dipping into pvp, only to learn later that people could just buy it off traders without ever touching pvp because the runebox was not bound... Thankfully ZoS has added the Gravegrasp style to IC as bound pages so that you actually have to earn it yourself even if it's not the most difficult thing to do. The game really lacks 'trophy' like rewards with a degree of exclusivity in many areas of the game. Mostly we see this in Trials with mounts and skins, but there should be rewards in other activities of the game too. The Jubilee weapon style pages are a good start to this I think, though there should be more options available year-round perhaps.

Buying stuff immediately with your crowns/gold is not a reward, it's a purchase.

Shagreth · February 17

Finedaible wrote: »

Perhaps the saddest thing about the ESO community is that the cash shop and gambling crates are so ingrained into its mentality by now that to think of enjoy playing a game for worthwhile rewards is now considered preposterous.

Buying stuff immediately with your crowns/gold is not a reward, it's a purchase.

Finally another person that gets it, if there were more people like you and me the game would have been in a much better place, but alas. I can very rarely be 'proud' of the stuff I'm wearing and for them to have a lasting effect, it's always go purchase X or Y then move on to the next thing. ESO reached the mobile game level of bad when it comes to this many years ago, so I don't see it ever changing.

I was so desperate I even asked for the upcoming Nerevar blade etc. to be BOP, like holding people hostage through FOMO is a better design. But I just want to work for something for once, because I know I'll just get lazy and go purchase it in the end. It's fine not to have everything given to us on a silver platter.

ESO_player123 · February 17

Shagreth wrote: »

Finedaible wrote: »

Perhaps the saddest thing about the ESO community is that the cash shop and gambling crates are so ingrained into its mentality by now that to think of enjoy playing a game for worthwhile rewards is now considered preposterous.

Buying stuff immediately with your crowns/gold is not a reward, it's a purchase.

Finally another person that gets it, if there were more people like you and me the game would have been in a much better place, but alas. I can very rarely be 'proud' of the stuff I'm wearing and for them to have a lasting effect, it's always go purchase X or Y then move on to the next thing. ESO reached the mobile game level of bad when it comes to this many years ago, so I don't see it ever changing.

I was so desperate I even asked for the upcoming Nerevar blade etc. to be BOP, like holding people hostage through FOMO is a better design. But I just want to work for something for once, because I know I'll just get lazy and go purchase it in the end. It's fine not to have everything given to us on a silver platter.

While I also would like to have more cosmetics earnable in game rather than through crown crates, you can always set a goal for yourself and earn the existing ones without purchasing them. You will know that you earned it. We have enough grind in this game as it is, no need to impose the restrictions on trading for other people.