MDW nerf is also a Necro nerf

NuarBlack · February 7

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

NuarBlack wrote: »

Stacking proc sets won't fix that. It hasn't fixed it as that has been ZoS's theory is they can balance via sets for the last two plus years and it has failed miserably. They have to address the root game mechanics at the heart of the tank and heal meta.

Is your problem with the existence of pressure builds, or the way ZOS designs the sets intended to be used by pressure builds? Either way, I don't see how nerfing melee pressure damage is helping the tank heal meta problem.

My problem is saying a set of any kind is a counter to anything. The problem has always been that the problem builds use the sets better than the counters do in 99% of situations. Like most have pointed out, tanks can throw on MDW as their only damage set and still secure kills.

Now of course this is due in part to ESO having incredibly low TTK that just means real pressure builds don't actually exist, as in actual attrition builds that whittle down opponents. Calling a build that uses procs and stuff to push someone into ult + execute range isn't a pressure build. If I was actually dying to real pressure builds I'd have no problem whatsoever if the build required both sets and bar slots to combine into a real attrition build designed to whittle down and kill troll tanks.

The other problem is MDW is a weapon set that brings other balance issues in. By default it is overloaded being a 2 piece. But the biggest is that it is one bar-able. Honestly old school Viper and Red Mountain were less problematic in some ways because they required more commitment. The old proc tards of yester years weren't troll tanks on top of it. The 2 piece weapon sets eliminate more build variety because their opportunity cost is non-existent due to being so easy to 1 bar. Adding aggressive scaling isn't a bad temp fix cause a complete combat overhaul that fixes TTK is likely beyond ZoS. (Especially considering the news coming out of parent company Microsoft, ESO is likely a Deadman walking)

xylena_lazarow · February 7

NuarBlack wrote: »

Like most have pointed out, tanks can throw on MDW as their only damage set and still secure kills.

What are these builds? Who are they killing? Are we playing the same game?

Nothing wrong with tanky proc builds being able to kill squishies. Tanky Clever Alchemist stat builds can do it too.

Organized groups running 40k hp damage dealers has nothing to do with MDW. They'll do that with anything.

Major_Toughness · February 7

Yes, it sucks that Necro is not receiving any buffs despite being the worst PvP class. It is not exactly top in PvE either but it is usable.

It nerfs a build, that is also used by Stamsorcs and Arcanists - coincidentally the best two classes in PvP this patch. Other classes can use it, yes, even if they don't crutch on it.

This is not a Necro nerf. This is not personal.

J18696 · February 7

Master dw on pts is still plenty viable just putting it out there its not dead its just not going tobe as easy anymore you just need alittle bit of effort into pushing more stats into dmg

duckdown · February 7

Nah man mdw r just brainless skill. 1 click 3.5 - 4k damage + 1.2 - 1.5k per tick no matter what set armor u use. Way too powerfull. Compare to 5 set bonus of way of fire thid is too much. Problem is they should fix blastbones targeting instead they change it to other direction which is a nerf.

NuarBlack · February 7

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

NuarBlack wrote: »

Like most have pointed out, tanks can throw on MDW as their only damage set and still secure kills.

What are these builds? Who are they killing? Are we playing the same game?

Nothing wrong with tanky proc builds being able to kill squishies. Tanky Clever Alchemist stat builds can do it too.

Organized groups running 40k hp damage dealers has nothing to do with MDW. They'll do that with anything.

You literally just compared 5 piece to a 2 piece. Clever alchemist also has a defacto CD too. At least try to argue in good faith.

NuarBlack · February 7

Easy proc damage actually exacerbates the tank meta, it does not counter it. Plain and simple.

I love necro, it has been my defacto main as of late. MDW will not save it. It needs way more than MDW. So many other classes can utilize MDW better. MDW is not the answer to Necro problems. No set is the answer to necro problems. The class kit needs fixed period.

JerBearESO · February 7

MDW nerf is good nerf

StarOfElyon · February 7

NuarBlack wrote: »

Easy proc damage actually exacerbates the tank meta, it does not counter it. Plain and simple.

I love necro, it has been my defacto main as of late. MDW will not save it. It needs way more than MDW. So many other classes can utilize MDW better. MDW is not the answer to Necro problems. No set is the answer to necro problems. The class kit needs fixed period.

Yes. Like:

StarOfElyon wrote: »

Here are some ideas that I have to add some more utility to the skills on the class.

As I have seen suggested on the forums, both morphs of the Necro scythe should get execute scaling. I agree that this would be a great and needed buff.

Hungry Scythe: also applies life steal to all enemies hit. (I think this still won't make the spammable very good for damage but at least it'll add to the use for survivability)

[Also, life steal should probably be tied to a status effect too]

Skeletal Arcanist/Archer: grants major sorcery/brutality when active.

Mystic/Detonating Syphon: grants major prophecy/savagery when slotted. Both morphs apply a damage over time to targets that stick to them after touching the tether.

Flame/Venom skull: applies burning/poisoned status effects. Does additional damage to targets afflicted with a status effect. No longer does increased damage on third cast but instead does increased damage on low health enemies.

Spirit Mender:
- Spirit Guardian: when active, applies major cowardice to attackers. (I just like the idea of the ghost scaring attackers.)
- Intensive Mender: increases the healing over a shorter period of time. (Buff the healing more please)

Bone Totem: summons an effigy of bones up to 28 meters away. After 1 second, the totem begins fearing nearby enemies every 2 seconds, causing them to cower in place for 4 seconds. (Changed to allow both morphs to be targeted)
- Warding Totem (Formerly Remote Totem): grants minor protection when standing in the area of effect.
- Agony Totem: afflicts enemies in the area of effect with minor vulnerability.

ULTIMATES:
Putrid Colossus (formerly Frozen Colossus): Unleash a decayed Flesh Colossus to pulverize enemies in the area. The Colossus smashes the ground three times over 3 seconds. Dealing damage applies Major Vulnerability to any enemy hit for 12 seconds.
- Frozen Colossus (formerly Glacial Colossus): does frost damage and freezes (stuns) enemies on the first hit instead of the third. (If a stun is too strong, the first hit can apply a strong snare instead)
- Pestilent Colossus: smashes the ground once and does disease damage. Afflicts enemies with a pestilence that does damage over time. (In PvP ultimates are all about burst and that's what necros lack so I tried to make the bursty part of these ultimates at the beginning of them)

Animate Blastbones: instead of resurrecting allies, this ultimate summons blastbones to attack the nearest opponent. It consumes corpses in the area to summon up to three more blastbones. Summoned Blastbones are immune to being crowd controlled (other than by another ultimate). Reduce the cost of this ultimate to 200, down from 320, to make it more usable.

Aldoss · February 7

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

NuarBlack wrote: »

Like most have pointed out, tanks can throw on MDW as their only damage set and still secure kills.

What are these builds? Who are they killing? Are we playing the same game?

Nothing wrong with tanky proc builds being able to kill squishies. Tanky Clever Alchemist stat builds can do it too.

Organized groups running 40k hp damage dealers has nothing to do with MDW. They'll do that with anything.

The build has been explained to you multiple times. MDW + WoF. Your choice of sustain/tank set, your choice of mythic, your choice of monster set.

At that point, it literally doesn't matter what you choose because you could be triple swift, triple healthy, or triple protective for the troll and still output 3-4k every 2sec in dot dmg.

40k hp arcs get to run it and sit behind their 20k shields. Sorcs run it, hit you once and streak away. Wardens run it and still have so much sustain with 45k hp that they can continue to spam their 15k polars. 3 of the 6 total necros in cyro run it. I've caught NBs and plars running it.

No one is talking about organized groups killing squishies. We're talking about the most flavorless, over performing build in the game that allows anyone, on any class, with any tank build, the ability to pump high dot dmg without trying.

If you want to run MDW on pts, you'll need to give up your sustain/tank set for it do anywhere close to what it's putting out on live. You'll need to run triple infused dmg or bloodthirsty. Or, you'll need to just deal with the WoF dot, and your build will see a fairly decent nerf in dot pressure. You should be applauding the devs for finally acting on it. It's a huge enabler to the stale tank meta.

Or maybe, you're against it because your build(s) rely on it. I get it. It sucks to realize that your performance may have been based on something that's been over performing.

This isn't a necro nerf. It's a tank dpser nerf.

xylena_lazarow · February 7

Aldoss wrote: »

The build has been explained to you multiple times. MDW + WoF. Your choice of sustain/tank set, your choice of mythic, your choice of monster set.

Have you run one of these builds yourself? Did you minmax for damage or survival? Did you fight competitive players?

I continue to get the impression that players complaining about pressure builds have never played one themselves, do not understand how to minmax them, and don't want to admit that they simply got outplayed and outbuilt.

Aldoss · February 7

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Aldoss wrote: »

The build has been explained to you multiple times. MDW + WoF. Your choice of sustain/tank set, your choice of mythic, your choice of monster set.

Have you run one of these builds yourself? Did you minmax for damage or survival? Did you fight competitive players?

You're drifting from the argument. The general consensus is that MDW is overperforming. A majority of players in this thread think so and ZOS clearly thinks so, otherwise they wouldn't have nerfed it.

"You got outplayed" can be said about every set that's ever been added into the game that, at one point or another, was over performing. It doesn't prove your point that MDW ISN'T overperforming. If you want to continue to outline your argument as to why MDW isn't overperforming right now, you're welcome to do so. I'm sorry that you're upset by it, but you seem to be in the minority that want it to stay the way it is.

"MDW isn't overperforming. MDW isn't the problem because of its flat modifier, X, Y, and Z are directly contributing to the power of MDW and should be addressed first before destroying the set." Or, "MDW provides X-benefit, which is the same as Y-set, which also provides X-benefit, that matches the values provided by MDW, but somehow people don't think it's a problem."

There. I just set you up. Tell us and ZOS what X, Y, or Z are as the basis for why MDW shouldn't be nerfed or why it's actually on par with the power limits provided by other sets in the game.

katorga · February 7

Heh, ZOS needs to apply the MDW nerf to Draugrkin so I can have it do more than 330 damage.

FoJul · February 7

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

FoJul wrote: »

Delete Master Dual wield completely! Wouldn't say build diversity when you can just throw on Master dw and a tank set and still do more dmg than a full dps spec. Everyone is doing it, MDW is meta. Can't say your reducing build diversity, when your taking away what most builds are crutching on.

That's not how those builds work. There is no build that does that, or you have a very strange idea of full dps spec.

For pvp shoulda clarrified.

FoJul · February 7

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

olsborg wrote: »

I disagree, master dw was so overused by the majority of builds in the procc campaigns that it itself was limiting build diversity. Please nerf more proccsets imo.

MDW wasn't choking anything out. There's nothing to replace it for melee pressure damage. Nothing. The meta simply narrows, I'm not changing to caster playstyle, I'll figure out how to adapt, MDW nerf still dumb and unnecessary.

Meanwhile, pure skill stat set Rallying Cry over there choking out 99% of available back bar sets.

Essence Thief > Rallying Cry

xylena_lazarow · February 7

Aldoss wrote: »

There. I just set you up. Tell us and ZOS what X, Y, or Z are as the basis for why MDW shouldn't be nerfed or why it's actually on par with the power limits provided by other sets in the game.

I've repeatedly stated that MDW merely performs, while nearly every other pressure tool underperforms in the wake of the awful u35 pressure damage nerfs. One of the best proc alternatives to MDW, the VMA 2h with the bleed DoT, was inexplicably nerfed then deleted from the game. We should be talking about buffing class sticky DoTs so that Deadly Strike stat pressure builds can be competitive again, not just removing more pressure damage from such a tanky meta.

The term "overperforming" requires context. What does MDW perform over exactly? Yes, MDW builds are very efficient and enjoyed by many competitive minmax players. That doesn't mean you deserve to win for wearing Hundings/Spriggans.

IAmIcehouse · February 7

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Aldoss wrote: »

There. I just set you up. Tell us and ZOS what X, Y, or Z are as the basis for why MDW shouldn't be nerfed or why it's actually on par with the power limits provided by other sets in the game.

I've repeatedly stated that MDW merely performs, while nearly every other pressure tool underperforms in the wake of the awful u35 pressure damage nerfs. One of the best proc alternatives to MDW, the VMA 2h with the bleed DoT, was inexplicably nerfed then deleted from the game. We should be talking about buffing class sticky DoTs so that Deadly Strike stat pressure builds can be competitive again, not just removing more pressure damage from such a tanky meta.

The term "overperforming" requires context. What does MDW perform over exactly? Yes, MDW builds are very efficient and enjoyed by many competitive minmax players. That doesn't mean you deserve to win for wearing Hundings/Spriggans.

MDW over performs over pretty much any damage piece if you do not build for damage. It was never touched when scaling was added to pretty much everything else, so the drawback from building pure tank is greatly reduced because you can achieve both a DoT and a harder hitting spammable than you're achieving anywhere else.

There should be drawbacks for building primarily defensive. I have pretty much exclusively played high pressure builds since I've started playing the game years back-- A "pressure" build shouldn't be a tank that can output a ton of pressure. It should be damage focused that has a) high sustained damage and b) can be defensive while offensive.

Arcanasx · February 7

Scapegoat Slashes was nerfed for showing up on too many death recaps, which shouldn't be surprising when most classes lack an instant cast melee spammable. The 7815 weapon damage required for the original damage is ridiculously high even for self buffed builds focused on damage; even 7k weapon damage would be far more reasonable. Meanwhile, concealed weapon which was already the best spammable is getting buffed. If the other classes had their own concealed weapon, how many of those players would still use rending slashes?

Vateshran Destro easily does more than two to three times the DoT value than what the MDW bonus provides when also used as a DoT, and its activated from a literally free skill that repeatedly provides free burning, chilled, concussed, free major breach, and its often combined with the benefit of an ice staff for free blocking mitigation. But its not getting nerfed, because the damage that it does is more "split up" and acts as a free damage amplifier for your other abilities, and so it won't show up as often. Its also why things like Undeath and Jerral's aren't getting adjusted despite being far more impactful.

So MDW gets nerfed, but with the status effect changes, elemental status-spammability gets indirectly buffed...which is already used more often than MDW. Its also the common denominator for the status effect spam taking place. Undeath still hasn't been adjusted either, which is what's allowing players to use damage sets and yet be "tanky." So we're still going to have much of the same problems next patch.

IAmIcehouse · February 7

Arcanasx wrote: »

Scapegoat Slashes was nerfed for showing up on too many death recaps, which shouldn't be surprising when most classes lack an instant cast melee spammable. The 7815 weapon damage required for the original damage is ridiculously high even for self buffed builds focused on damage; even 7k weapon damage would be far more reasonable. Meanwhile, concealed weapon which was already the best spammable is getting buffed. If the other classes had their own concealed weapon, how many of those players would still use rending slashes?

Vateshrean Destro easily does more than two to three times the DoT value than what the MDW bonus provides when also used as a DoT, and its activated from a literally free skill that repeatedly provides free burning, chilled, concussed, free major breach, and its often combined with the benefit of an ice staff for free blocking mitigation. But its not getting nerfed, because the damage that it does is more "split up" and acts as a free damage amplifier for your other abilities, and so it won't show up as often. Its also why things like Undeath and Jerral's aren't getting adjusted despite being far more impactful.

So MDW gets nerfed, but with the status effect changes, elemental status-spammability gets indirectly buffed...which is already used more often than MDW. Its also the common denominator for the status effect spam taking place. Undeath still hasn't been adjusted either, which is what's allowing players to use damage sets and yet be "tanky." So we're still going to have much of the same problems next patch.

Just because one thing is over-performing doesn't mean something else isn't. Pretty much everyone is rooting for an ele sus nerf. If there are 10 things to fixed, and they only address 1, that's better than nothing. Doesn't make it ideal

xylena_lazarow · February 7

IAmIcehouse wrote: »

There should be drawbacks for building primarily defensive. I have pretty much exclusively played high pressure builds since I've started playing the game years back-- A "pressure" build shouldn't be a tank that can output a ton of pressure. It should be damage focused that has a) high sustained damage and b) can be defensive while offensive.

Did you play during the Troll King + Bleed meta? I guess I'm just not subjectively seeing any of these builds as too-tanky for how much damage they do on their own, especially with Draugrkin being light armor and reducing your healing. I also don't think it's MDW that's enabling the "damage dealer with 64 attributes in hp" meta, nor can I see that meta changing in u41.

IAmIcehouse · February 8

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

IAmIcehouse wrote: »

There should be drawbacks for building primarily defensive. I have pretty much exclusively played high pressure builds since I've started playing the game years back-- A "pressure" build shouldn't be a tank that can output a ton of pressure. It should be damage focused that has a) high sustained damage and b) can be defensive while offensive.

Did you play during the Troll King + Bleed meta? I guess I'm just not subjectively seeing any of these builds as too-tanky for how much damage they do on their own, especially with Draugrkin being light armor and reducing your healing. I also don't think it's MDW that's enabling the "damage dealer with 64 attributes in hp" meta, nor can I see that meta changing in u41.

1. Just because something has existed once doesn't mean it was good for the game.
2. Just because its not meta shifting doesn't mean its not a step in the right direction

xylena_lazarow · February 8

IAmIcehouse wrote: »

Just because one thing is over-performing doesn't mean something else isn't. Pretty much everyone is rooting for an ele sus nerf. If there are 10 things to fixed, and they only address 1, that's better than nothing. Doesn't make it ideal

I don't want to be in a "broken checking broken" meta either, but ZOS only ever seems to target damage. Nerf pressure damage? Okay fine, nerf HoT stacks and spammable burst heals too then, or Undeath, which is broken for many reasons including how hard it screws pressure builds (yes I abuse Undeath myself). Nerfing Ele Sus would likewise be a step in the wrong direction without a corresponding reduction to the insane amount of minmaxed defensive power available.

IAmIcehouse · February 8

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

IAmIcehouse wrote: »

Just because one thing is over-performing doesn't mean something else isn't. Pretty much everyone is rooting for an ele sus nerf. If there are 10 things to fixed, and they only address 1, that's better than nothing. Doesn't make it ideal

I don't want to be in a "broken checking broken" meta either, but ZOS only ever seems to target damage. Nerf pressure damage? Okay fine, nerf HoT stacks and spammable burst heals too then, or Undeath, which is broken for many reasons including how hard it screws pressure builds (yes I abuse Undeath myself). Nerfing Ele Sus would likewise be a step in the wrong direction without a corresponding reduction to the insane amount of minmaxed defensive power available.

I agree to all those. But if have to nerf one at a time to get there, I'm fine with it. Slow progress is better than no progress.

The problem with needing so much dmg to kill anyone is because people build so tanky (because of nightblades broken af but also) because its so easy to have competitive DPS speccing almost entirely defensive.