Swallow who? Oh Swallow soul.

Faulgor

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

The fact that most Cyrodiil Nightblade gankers are using Crushing Shock/Force Pulse as their spammable should be enough to indicate that Nightblade's ranged spammable is trash.

Weapon abilities should be, at most, side grades to class abilities.

That's weird, because my Swallow Soul tool tip is slightly higher than Force Pulse.
Of course you get secondary benefits with FP, but the same could be said for SS.

Twohothardware

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

The fact that most Cyrodiil Nightblade gankers are using Crushing Shock/Force Pulse as their spammable should be enough to indicate that Nightblade's ranged spammable is trash.

Weapon abilities should be, at most, side grades to class abilities.

A lot of the class spammables in the game are trash and they don’t ever really address them because of the weapon skill lines propping up the classes.

CameraBeardThePirate

Faulgor wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

The fact that most Cyrodiil Nightblade gankers are using Crushing Shock/Force Pulse as their spammable should be enough to indicate that Nightblade's ranged spammable is trash.

Weapon abilities should be, at most, side grades to class abilities.

That's weird, because my Swallow Soul tool tip is slightly higher than Force Pulse.
Of course you get secondary benefits with FP, but the same could be said for SS.

Crushing/Force Pulse has a deceptive tooltip.

You're almost always going to proc 1 status effect each cast, and will more often than not proc multiple status effects.

In addition, Destro abilities ignore a bit of spell resistance, so the tooltip goes even further.

Gray_howling_parrot

This title led me to believe this was going to be some sort of “your mom” joke.

Imagine my disappointment when I open this thread and it’s just… educated discussions 😫

Zodiarkslayer

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

Crushing shock/force pulse is definitely competitive.

Venom Skull (in PvE) is 100% competitive because the tooltip on it is insane.

😂😂😂
🤣🤣🤣

When I parsed on my StamCro last week I tried Skull with a Bow and it hit for 16k non crit. On the same setup Bloodthirst (Furry) hits for 24k non crit.
Even if you count the bonus 50% damage cast, you'll neither sustain it, nor get it consistently.

Very competitive. Indeed.

CameraBeardThePirate

Zodiarkslayer wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

Crushing shock/force pulse is definitely competitive.

Venom Skull (in PvE) is 100% competitive because the tooltip on it is insane.

😂😂😂
🤣🤣🤣

When I parsed on my StamCro last week I tried Skull with a Bow and it hit for 16k non crit. On the same setup Bloodthirst (Furry) hits for 24k non crit.
Even if you count the bonus 50% damage cast, you'll neither sustain it, nor get it consistently.

Very competitive. Indeed.

Dude I don't know what else to tell you. Venom Skull is the best option for a spammable necro has in PvE.

Not sure why you bring up sustain as Venom Skull is rather cheap. Much cheaper than Bloodthirst, the alternative you mentioned. Also the conversation was about ranged spammables anyways - all melee spammables have a higher tooltip as that's the tradeoff for being up close in the yuck puddles.

You also get the 50% buff nearly every cast, as on a Necro you rarely cast your spammable anyways in a rotation as most of your globals go to Blastbones and DoT rotations.

The only other spammable that comes close on a Necro on PvE is Silver Shards because of the AoE and extra damage from Fighters Guild Passives.

Decimus

I wouldn't say no to a 10% buff to Swallow Soul(/Funnel Health) tooltip damage to offset the damage loss from no longer having Major Berserk from Concealed, but ranged magblade right now isn't exactly as terrible as people make it out to be.

The thing you need to make it good (on Live, with the Major Berserk) is the Soulcleaver class set and you've got yourself a good tooltip damage (around 10% higher than Concealed) ranged spammable with a fast travel time that provides you a heal over time and is extremely cheap on top of it.

Vaqual

I think it is in an acceptable spot and I like how the heal works. Won't say no to a small buff, but nothing that jeopardizes the abilities design.

Cominfordatoothbrush

TybaltKaine wrote: »

We clearly have different definitions of the word bad. I'll take 1/4 of an enemy's health and healing myself for 10K on a single button press any day of the week.

Y'all go ahead and cook though.

the definition people are using is in relation to the damage that other skills do. if you're in a trial or something, why would a nightblade ever use swallow soul over concealed weapon, silver shards, rapid strikes, ele weapon, etc?

FoJul

Cominfordatoothbrush wrote: »

TybaltKaine wrote: »

We clearly have different definitions of the word bad. I'll take 1/4 of an enemy's health and healing myself for 10K on a single button press any day of the week.

Y'all go ahead and cook though.

the definition people are using is in relation to the damage that other skills do. if you're in a trial or something, why would a nightblade ever use swallow soul over concealed weapon, silver shards, rapid strikes, ele weapon, etc?

They used too, because range blade was the most popular spec awhile back. Rangeblade used to be better than sorc when it came to range parsing/pve. Same for PvP. But with the standard they are pushing for this melee nightblade, It has made rangeblade irrelevant.

Leaving people making comments like the one you have made. (not being rude, let me make that clear) People don't even remember that rangeblade is an actual playstyle, and used to be the BiS playstyle. Now it's just a joke.

Let's be honest, Nightblade as a whole struggle to bring relevance as a class itself to pve.

For PvP, theres really only 1 option and thats melee hybrid. Sure you can gank but its not OP. Sure you can rangeblade but its gonna be a super watered down version of Magsorc.

Rkindaleft

Just turn Swallow Soul into arc beam with 5000 meters range and we gucci

TybaltKaine wrote: »

We clearly have different definitions of the word bad. I'll take 1/4 of an enemy's health and healing myself for 10K on a single button press any day of the week.

Y'all go ahead and cook though.

The other poster is comparing it to other ranged spammables, and hardly nobody ever uses ranged spammables in even a semi-competitive raid scenario because it's a huge damage loss except in like vAS. The scenario in which you are using it in is on an overland enemy with half the resistances (9100) of that in a dungeon or trial (18200.) The entire point was that using Concealed Weapon is much better DPS and in raid the heal from Swallow Soul is niche and largely irrelevant in a large amount of fights.

fred4

Decimus wrote: »

I wouldn't say no to a 10% buff to Swallow Soul(/Funnel Health) tooltip damage to offset the damage loss from no longer having Major Berserk from Concealed, but ranged magblade right now isn't exactly as terrible as people make it out to be.

The thing you need to make it good (on Live, with the Major Berserk) is the Soulcleaver class set and you've got yourself a good tooltip damage (around 10% higher than Concealed) ranged spammable with a fast travel time that provides you a heal over time and is extremely cheap on top of it.

This. Swallow Soul is the optimal skill in Imperial City for me, because keeping your health topped off while farming an IC boss is important. I have moved all but one of my Siphoning skills to the front bar, making Soulcleaver a single-bar set, which results in a flexible build. Healing double dips in the buff from that set. This isn't as dramatic as it sounds, but it does up Swallow Soul healing to 44% of damage done, last I looked. While Crushing Shock is better PvP pressure for oh so many reasons already mentioned, Swallow Soul suits a more Brawler-like playstyle, where you're aiming to stay in the the fight for longer as you match the healing of, not all, but more other builds. Nightblade frequently gets mentioned for having one of the strongest burst heals, but burst heals are only an emergency tool at the end of the day. They don't lend themselves well to staying in a fight without cloaking. Swallow Soul is IMO decent as an all-round skill, while not being particularly good at any one thing. I do find that makes it a good compromise for IC, however. Since the arrival of Soulcleaver, I am also using it in Cyro.

I am not sure how this will change next patch. Concealed may look better on paper, but try to stay on target against a player and a ranged spammable is simply better, because players will try and outrange you. A, perhaps, overlooked Concealed change from the patch notes is that the Off Balance trigger condition will apply passively on both bars, regardless of damage skill used, unless I read that wrong. I don't like that Concealed will yet again be higher damage than Swallow Soul with a whole set sacrificed for Siphoning skills. That said, I think Swallow Soul has and will continue to have merit. I, therefore, disagree the skill should be fundamentally reworked.

FoJul

Decimus wrote: »

I wouldn't say no to a 10% buff to Swallow Soul(/Funnel Health) tooltip damage to offset the damage loss from no longer having Major Berserk from Concealed, but ranged magblade right now isn't exactly as terrible as people make it out to be.

The thing you need to make it good (on Live, with the Major Berserk) is the Soulcleaver class set and you've got yourself a good tooltip damage (around 10% higher than Concealed) ranged spammable with a fast travel time that provides you a heal over time and is extremely cheap on top of it.

Yeah sure, I'm going to guess, you were meaning Major bezerk via Sea-Serpents coil. Soulcleaver front bar, and like even rallying back bar. Still way underperforming than just hopping on magsorc.

I'll try it again with the new changes, but as of right now, ranged magblade is deffinetely worse than what people realize. (Comparing it to melee of course)

Shadowbinder7

FoJul wrote: »

Another patch goes by, and swallow soul still irrelevant, as we get yet another concealed weapon buff. Can we remove swallow soul and just make it a heal skill only? Actually just delete swallow soul and replace it.

I get ppl mad about nightblade being strong, but come on folks, its been 6 years since Swallow soul was usable.

NEVER do anything to swallow soul but buff it as the Magblade spammable. I have played dds for all 7 classes, mag and stam, and I can say swallow soul has always been one of my favourite spammables in the game

However the main issue is yes it is weaker in what you get for slotting it compared to other class spammable like molten whip and crystal fragments. Even escalating runeblades seems to do better.

So please BUFF swallow soul next patch ZOS devs! Do not make it a heal only skill. It is the essence of the Magicka Nightblade playstyle in PVE (and even in PVP it could be made better).
This class should not be killed the way magcro has been in this recent patch with grave lord sacrifice.

Rather it should be made to be on par in pve with other damage dealers like magical dragonknight and magicka templar . In pvp meanwhile… yes perhaps nighblade mag and stan could do with pvp nerfs to compensate.

Balance, ZOS devs! Balance is needed

Shadowbinder7

soulus42 wrote: »

While I know Swallow Soul needs buffing, I still like using it. But I also like playing necro, so you could say I just enjoy suffering.

Still, would be nice for Swallow Soul to get some attention in the future.

I believe this is the sentiment shared by most who love the Magblade playstyle. Fun smooth skill that fits the theme, not enough damage single target (given it has zero cleave) to make it as good as say crystal fragments.

Please do something about it

Shadowbinder7

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

Why run Swallow Soul when you can just throw on Concealed Weapon and hit harder than an Uppercut on an instant cast skill that sets enemies off balance and gives you Minor Expedition?

Because we Magblades are supposed to be the ranged wizards version of stamblades.

Impale (the magicka morph) can be used at range. It makes logical sense that the main spammable pre execute should also be a RANGED spammable (not concealed weapon which is more of a pvp gank spammable it feels).

I am writing this obvious stuff because it really must be emphasised to the devs it seems. Magblade deserves a very powerful single target ranged class spammable. Like Magsorc has crystal frags, and magcro has ricochet skull (which tbh could also do with a direct buff outside of grave lords sacrifice)

VaxtinTheWolf

Imagine Concealed Weapon being a 15m single target dagger throw. A shorter range version of Hidden Blade, but with the current Nightblade effects.

Shadowbinder7

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

…Swallow Soul is objectively worse than almost any other spammable in the game.

Zodiarkslayer wrote: »

FoJul wrote: »

Which this build is fine for gathering crafting nodes and treasure chest. But for any real end game content, Swallow soul in general is a joke.

Show me one ranged spammable that is competitive dps!
They are designed to not be competitive! There is a standard for ranged spammables in ESO and Swallow Soul follows it to the letter.

I have mained a MagBlade ever since I started ESO and I love this ability.
Swallow Soul is a fine and staple SOLO ability, that has its place in PvE and PvP. Not at the top, but also far from at the bottom.
The heal comes in between 6k and 9k on my build. How is that not awesome?

And I’d like to address this. Why ZOS should ranged do any less than melee as a standard, when everyone claims that for most PVE content you don’t really need to be ranged anyway? Kinda defeats the purpose really… whereas ranged spammables being approximately equal to melee in output (say swallow soul hitting as hard as molten whip, with all trial buffs) would actually have no impact on the melee setups and would encourage MORE build diversity.

Meanwhile in pvp if it seems unfair that crystal frags, swallow soul, skull, force pulse etc should be on par with dizzying swing, molten whip etc, then simply add a PVP only debuff in battle spirit that reduces ranged spammable damage accordingly to make it “fair” to melee pvpers.

Could this not work ZOS devs?

Shadowbinder7

FoJul wrote: »

Zodiarkslayer wrote: »

FoJul wrote: »

Which this build is fine for gathering crafting nodes and treasure chest. But for any real end game content, Swallow soul in general is a joke.

Show me one ranged spammable that is competitive dps!
They are designed to not be competitive! There is a standard for ranged spammables in ESO and Swallow Soul follows it to the letter.

I have mained a MagBlade ever since I started ESO and I love this ability.
Swallow Soul is a fine and staple SOLO ability, that has its place in PvE and PvP. Not at the top, but also far from at the bottom.
The heal comes in between 6k and 9k on my build. How is that not awesome?

Its definitely at the bottom. Almost all Nightblade (ranged specs) are using either crushing Shock or ele weapon.Some even using Snipe LOL. The only reason i still use Swallow, is because apparently I like suffering to a degree it angers me. Then i refuel on my anger of the class and swap to dk and dominate.

Sure, I can make swallow work, but it still doesn't change the fact it sucks. The heal is the only excuse holding it up higher than what it really is. But the heal is unreliable. Mainly cause it scales off of damage, and the skill does no damage.

For the record I've also played Ranged Magicka Nightblade, from almost Day 1.

Fojul you use it for the same reason I do. Because it LOOKS COOL and fits the mag version of the class’ theme. And yeah the minor healing is a nice plus in solo.

But come on… so many things in the game are in this state where theirs is so much beautiful potential that is functionally rubbish. Why must endgame players who wanna challenge themselves in hardest content, not be able to choose the most lore appropriate and beautiful skill combos and even sets?

Prime example… prior thierric monster set looks PERFECT on my stamina nightblade. But she is the worst using it, works better with stamcro, stamplar or stamarc! How does that make sense?!

It’s a recurring theme across the board. Fixing the class skills like swallow soul will be a good start. ZOS devs have kinda messed up with necro “grave lords sacrifice”… they need to start thinking more about each playstyle and functionality in content.

Shadowbinder7

VaxtinTheWolf wrote: »

Imagine Concealed Weapon being a 15m single target dagger throw. A shorter range version of Hidden Blade, but with the current Nightblade effects.

Would be boring though, that’s just what Impale the ranged class execute should be. The animation of swallow soul differentiates it from stamina nightblade. You’re not daggering someone to death… you’re siphoning their vitality with shadowy blood magic. It gives it distinction.

The only viable solution is to buff swallow soul, and keep concealed wpn as a utility skill in pvp

CrazyKitty

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

The fact that most Cyrodiil Nightblade gankers are using Crushing Shock/Force Pulse as their spammable should be enough to indicate that Nightblade's ranged spammable is trash.

Weapon abilities should be, at most, side grades to class abilities.

NB is S tier in PvP. They're way OP with the biggest burst heal and biggest burst damage at the same time. Not to mention the most complete toolkit of skills to work with..oh, and cloak.

FoJul

CrazyKitty wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

The fact that most Cyrodiil Nightblade gankers are using Crushing Shock/Force Pulse as their spammable should be enough to indicate that Nightblade's ranged spammable is trash.

Weapon abilities should be, at most, side grades to class abilities.

NB is S tier in PvP. They're way OP with the biggest burst heal and biggest burst damage at the same time. Not to mention the most complete toolkit of skills to work with..oh, and cloak.

Take that same build, whatever you're talking about, and put a lightning staff front bar and changed concealed to swallow soul, and then come back and tell me how S tier Nb really is.

You have missed the point of this entire thread. The Title of the thread is what we are talking about. Unless you are ganking with swallow soul, there is no relevance of this skill. Sure, there's a nightblade build that is good. I get that, but where is the diversity? NB has 1 cookie cutter build that everyone does the same thing, hoping to land a Incap/Bow or off balance weave/ bow to secure a kill.

In my eyes, that's not really fun. It in fact, gets very boring. Like others have mentioned earlier in this thread, I like Swallow Souls, animation. I like its functionality. I think it suits the Mageblade very well. It also fits Elder Scrolls lore. I just would like to be able to make an actual build with it, in both PvP and PvE. Which is nearly impossible.

You can tell me to run this, and run that, but me and several other players can tell you. We have tried almost everything. You can mention a set, and I bet I have tried it.

It's to the point where known PvP tryhards like React, Shoyru, Monk, and several people that are acquaintances, won't even attempt to make Swallow soul magblade work.

Im so sick of people bringing up melee nightblade to a conversation where 80% of that build is not part of Range nightblade. Play the darn class, and then bring your feedback in here.

Shadowbinder7

Hey ZOS_All Devs if you look back at this thread I have a recommendation

Add 5/10% buff to Magic damage and maybe also disease damage to one of the passives in the Nightblade class if you are scared to buff swallow soul

This may help boost them in PVE for damage dealing

FoJul

Shadowbinder7 wrote: »

Hey ZOS_All Devs if you look back at this thread I have a recommendation

Add 5/10% buff to Magic damage and maybe also disease damage to one of the passives in the Nightblade class if you are scared to buff swallow soul

This may help boost them in PVE for damage dealing

I was literally just talking about his with a friend. Nightblade is one of the only classes that don't get a raw dmg buff to one of their main resources. (Dk-Fire, Warden-Frost, Sorc-Lightning, Templar-Burning Light+Balanced warrior, Necro-Dot damage, Arcanist-Status effects.) You can argue that Templars-Burning light+balanced warrior passives don't count, but they kinda do.

A magic damage buff would be a decent idea. Tho, it would be buffing merciless resolve even further, making melee builds still 2 tiers better.

I'd be down to nerf merciless, for this passive.

NyassaV

Decimus wrote: »

I wouldn't say no to a 10% buff to Swallow Soul(/Funnel Health) tooltip damage to offset the damage loss from no longer having Major Berserk from Concealed, but ranged magblade right now isn't exactly as terrible as people make it out to be.

The thing you need to make it good (on Live, with the Major Berserk) is the Soulcleaver class set and you've got yourself a good tooltip damage (around 10% higher than Concealed) ranged spammable with a fast travel time that provides you a heal over time and is extremely cheap on top of it.

Soul Cleaver isn't worth it unless you're doing double dmg sets active on both bars. Frankly the fact it has a downside and only provides a 18% bonus don't really justify the use.

DrNukenstein

They already tried strong ranged magblade and took it away. They took it away because no one but the ranged magblades dug the vibe.

NuarBlack

DrNukenstein wrote: »

They already tried strong ranged magblade and took it away. They took it away because no one but the ranged magblades dug the vibe.

[snip] I think they could bring it back if they somehow tied it's power with taking Dark Cloak the healing morph so it was a range brawler instead of the annoying cheap cloak and shade away spec it was. Plus, Caluurion's isn't as busted anymore either and that was tied to the auto crit of cloak as well.

[edited for baiting]

DrNukenstein

The concept of "ranged brawler" does not make sense. If you are shooting your kit from up to 40 meters away from the fight that is the opposite of brawling.

NuarBlack

DrNukenstein wrote: »

The concept of "ranged brawler" does not make sense. If you are shooting your kit from up to 40 meters away from the fight that is the opposite of brawling.

A little pedantic don't you think? Especially when range in the game is a Non-factor with the plethora of cheap speed and gap closers available. Not to mention hybridization. Charging at someone and getting gunned down before you reach them is a learn 2 play issue not a range is too powerful issue. I have zero problems sticking to targets as melee, cause I slot major Expedition and a gap closer. I also know to retreat to LOS if a range gets the jump.

Even my mag sorc I'd say plays like a brawler. I'm shield stacking and streaking offensively if I'm actually in the fight. Why I've defended streak so many times other places when people cry about it. Magblade was only oppressive in the past because it didn't have to survive damage cause of being able to avoid it so well with shade and cloak to reset the fight and try the gank combo again. Take away that combo and I think there is plenty of counter play. Call it a skirmisher build if it makes you feel better, my point was that it would be susceptible to taking damage and counter play.

DrNukenstein

NuarBlack wrote: »

A little pedantic don't you think? Especially when range in the game is a Non-factor with the plethora of cheap speed and gap closers available. Not to mention hybridization. Charging at someone and getting gunned down before you reach them is a learn 2 play issue not a range is too powerful issue. I have zero problems sticking to targets as melee, cause I slot major Expedition and a gap closer. I also know to retreat to LOS if a range gets the jump.

Even my mag sorc I'd say plays like a brawler. I'm shield stacking and streaking offensively if I'm actually in the fight. Why I've defended streak so many times other places when people cry about it. Magblade was only oppressive in the past because it didn't have to survive damage cause of being able to avoid it so well with shade and cloak to reset the fight and try the gank combo again. Take away that combo and I think there is plenty of counter play. Call it a skirmisher build if it makes you feel better, my point was that it would be susceptible to taking damage and counter play.

I think it's really funny how people on the forum like to act like no one else on the forum knows how to play the game they are posting on the forum about.

It doesn't matter if you're ranged blading, sorcing, bow wardening, beamplaring, etc. If you're standing like way away from the fight you are not brawling. You are just clicking into a crowd and occasionally reacting to people who decide to deal with you. It's okay for that easier approach to pvp to be weaker.