No changes to accommodate the disabled players?

nokturnihs

nokturnihs wrote: »

Sincere and genuine question because as long as I've played games (pre Internet) there's always been cheaters out there. When online gaming because a thing cheaters, bots, etc all became a thing and no matter what publishers seem to do about it, those types manage to find a way. I think it sucks, most people probably do and I know some people aggressively report bots or cheaters (and in PvP that DOES have an impact on others experience).

Sometimes I have a little brain fog and get distracted. The whole thing about bots/cheaters reference is that ultimately unless it's directly impacting our own engagement we don't want to do it ourselves and disagree with the tactic but it's not impacting us and unless we're certain and have enough moral outrage we move on. Oaken soul wasn't cheating or botting so again outside of maybe PvP and/or leaderboards what was the harm? Especially since oaken soul wasn't great for PvP in most cases and it still was underperforming the people who punch through the leaderboard content because they've got the skill and memory to hit that content like pros.full disclosure I don't do much leaderboard stuff and have never made it onto a leaderboard. What I have done, even with OS is a struggle on normal (EA, tried and failed some vet VH and MA, a vet trial that went sideways fast).

UsualSurrender

Again, HA builds are perfectly viable for any content but leaderboard runs.
Are you telling me that your guild mates refuse to take you because you have an oakensoul ring? Are they seriously refusing to take you (Especially after you told them about your inability to play another build, which judging by this thread, I'm guessing you must have done profusely) ?
Change guild. Honestly such guildmates are not worth your time.
In any case, that's not a game design issue or a lack of accessibility problem. HA is fine. Arcanist is fine. Oakensoul is fine.
Off you go killing monsters.

Soarora

nokturnihs wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

I was one of the people on these forums arguing for an oakensoul nerf so I’d like to bring my perspective here. It was never about gatekeeping disabled people from content, it was about perfectly abled people cheesing things. I wasn’t happy with how they nerfed it, I more just wanted the tankiness gone, but it got the job done. Oakensoul still works just fine but is no longer used by abled endgamers to cheese content en masse. It’s an unfortunate reality that often aides disabled people benefit from are either taken by abled people or shamed by abled people because they may think the aide is useless (because it would be to an abled person). This is more of a societal problem than an ESO one.

My question is why does it matter if abled or disabled people are cheesing content? You didn't have to like it or respect it but it didn't harmfully impact your ability to play the game, access content or otherwise do what you'd been doing. Maybe leaderboard stuff? Is there something I'm missing?

The environment I was experiencing was one of fully abled endgame people not just using but requiring oakensoul heavy attack sorcerers (not even any other class) for 3DPS dungeon runs, asylum sanctorum (especially trifecta), and blackrose prison (the hardest 4man content, cheesed). The very same people supporting this trend constantly complained that the build was boring and had too much tankiness and healing. It was driving me nuts. A similar situation happens now with arcanist but 3DPS dungeon runs are untouched and I hear far less complaints as arcanist (supposedly, though I have heard sweaty DPS talk and it gets pretty sweaty) requires a bit more skill than an oakenHA build. It is expected that the meta build is meta and requited by meta groups but to force everyone into a very different playstyle than we’re used to, eradicate the welcoming of diverse builds even further (pre-oakensoul AS just required a ranged build, not a specific class, by some of the very same people who pushed this oaken trend), and into a build that has obscene tankiness as well as constant group burst heals (matriarch) was not a fun time. Of course, one could easily claim it’s my fault for hanging around these people and since that time I have pulled away from them a bit but it was just not a fun meta with the constant complaining.

Tldr; there was nothing wrong with oakensoul in normal or even veteran content (and oakensoul can still be used in these cases! Just not in cloudrest for many groups) but the issue took place at the endgame level where build diversity was squeezed to dust and some trifectas were earned much easier than before, devaluing them a bit.

That said, I agree with another comment in this thread that many endgamers were glad for the accessibility. Some just also hated that the build was too easy to hit high numbers with (which is arguable, I’ve seen plenty people on these forums struggle to reach 80/90k dps like the endgamers did) and hated using the build themselves (so why did they push everyone to use it? I don’t know. Meta things).

Soarora

Between the lightning staff nerf and the addition of arcanist, endgamers have been shaken off the build (which is why it may *seem* mega nerfed into no longer being usable, meta gets very dramatic which is how we end up with “dead classes”) but oakenHA is still viable. I have seen it no longer welcomed in some DLC hardmodes but apart from Cloudrest I think it’s fine in vet even around sweaty meta endgamers.

PrincessOfThieves

Oakensoul HA build still works, it's just not OP anymore. It allows you to do pretty much any vet dungeons or trial. And arcanists are still very powerful and easy to play. I honestly don't understand what you're even complaining about.
But more importantly, you should not speak for all disabled people. As someone who's struggling with health issues and will never get all of ESO' many achievements, I sympatize with your situation, but I do not think that the game should be dumbed down so that everyone can cheese everything. Wanting an easy win button has nothing to do with having a disability, there are actually disabled gamers who enjoy challenging games, like this dude, for example.
ESO is not nearly as difficult as many other games on the market, and the only things in pve that have high performance requirements are vet dlc hardmodes and trifectas. And even then you can always just do normal or non-hm veteran versions and experience the same content on lower difficulty. It's basically an equivalent of lowering difficulty in a single-player game.

LunaFlora

whilst i definitely agree we need more accessibility options like
- the option to turn off static effects like from Storm Atronachs
- the option to turn off flashes of white that we get from Hardmode Scrolls and Aetherian Archive portals

i don't think your suggestions are helpful.
like disabling light attack weaving isn't really necessary.
it is frustrating that is a thing i can't do all the time and thus can't reach a DPS that others can,
however disabling it removes something others enjoy and that wouldn't be nice either.


more difficulty options like an easy or story mode for dungeons and other instances would super nice,
zos has said it's on their to-do list so it'll happen eventually.


when thinking about accessibility it's best to think about options instead of completely removing/disabling things in a game.

and i can totally play eso with one bar heavy attack builds.
not everything, but this game is still changing regularly and we didn't have screen narration until March 2023 when update 37 released so i have hope for more accommodation. 🌸

Soarora

LunaFlora wrote: »

- the option to turn off flashes of white that we get from Hardmode Scrolls and Aetherian Archive portals

when thinking about accessibility it's best to think about options instead of completely removing/disabling things in a game.

I honestly think the flash of white from hardmode scrolls should be changed in general. I understand toggles but also as far as I’m aware I don’t have abnormal light sensitivity (I have a bit but as far as I’m aware it’s because of my eye color) and the sudden flash hurts my eyes. I can’t imagine how bad it is for someone with light sensitivity. Turning the scrolls into banners might be the best way to go as it makes HM toggles more consistent and stops “oops we forgot HM after we wiped” problems.

nokturnihs

PrincessOfThieves wrote: »

Oakensoul HA build still works, it's just not OP anymore. It allows you to do pretty much any vet dungeons or trial. And arcanists are still very powerful and easy to play. I honestly don't understand what you're even complaining about.
But more importantly, you should not speak for all disabled people. As someone who's struggling with health issues and will never get all of ESO' many achievements, I sympatize with your situation, but I do not think that the game should be dumbed down so that everyone can cheese everything. Wanting an easy win button has nothing to do with having a disability, there are actually disabled gamers who enjoy challenging games, like this dude, for example.
ESO is not nearly as difficult as many other games on the market, and the only things in pve that have high performance requirements are vet dlc hardmodes and trifectas. And even then you can always just do normal or non-hm veteran versions and experience the same content on lower difficulty. It's basically an equivalent of lowering difficulty in a single-player game.

Never claimed I was speaking for all disabled people. Other than an attempt at devaluing any comments I've made I'm not sure why you'd think I was.

I do enjoy challenging content but there's different kinds of challenges right? I'm pretty good at games with faster combat than ESO because there's less physical IPS requirements or the controls are more suited to people who can't or don't want to hit a button every half second.

One example would be toggles for buffs that reserve Magicka rather than a mandatory button press to maintain uptime every X seconds.

Having LA and HA on a separate track so holding Right trigger (in my case) vs another button will run light or heavy combos individually.

Heck, PoE2 is supposedly doing something where one "combo gem" will fire multiple skills at once. Stuff like that would help dramatically.

The community narrative seems to be if you can't meet the IPS you shouldn't play. Why?

If you for example wanted to put up molten weapons as a set and forget toggle that reserved an appropriate amount of Magicka and it reduced your button presses per minute significantly, what's wrong with that? What's wrong with 2 button blah blah whatever? The enemies have the same health, the environmental hazards are still the same. The physical investment is lowered which ultimately increases the time people can play without getting physically shredded and for those of us with different issues it's the difference between trying to keep up with the sequence of buttons you're pressing while focusing on movement, what your opponent is doing, what your group is doing.

Do I really want light attack weaving to go away? No, I would much rather have effective change that makes the game enjoyable for all. If story or solo mode is on ZOS's Todo list then great, couldn't come fast enough.

Also furious with the community and it's hard to enjoy any ESO without the black cloud of try-hards taking down anything for casual players because of cliquishness and other flavors of that.

Oh and the chatter about guild mates - no my guild mates were great, helpful, living, considerate and amazing people (abled, disabled, try hards even) - but it was a smallish guild 70ish at most, usually only 5-10 people on at a time in best case. When I took a long break from the game a bunch of them bounced too for the same reasons. Some went off to other guilds and most are just rolling logins half the time because we're desperate for changes that aren't pandering to the try hard crowd at the expense of others.

The toxicity was from regular trial groups/guilds, pubs and here in the forums.

Araneae6537

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

nokturnihs wrote: »

[...] I've seen crews kick people for wearing sets their click didn't approve of, despite that player trying to do things as their role dictated. I've seen gatekeeping of people simply because they were old and women and that wasn't acceptable [...]

[...]build the way I want to without having other players forcing me into a particular meta [...]

Easiest solution would be to join a guild of people that plays the same way, don't you think so? Instead of issuing demands to screw over people who play in another way.

Exactly! Nothing to do with ZOS or the game is the problem here. People who want to be exclusive or put others down or whatever will invent reasons to do so.

Thankfully, most players I’ve interacted with are not like this and more than a few have gone out of their way to help acquire gear, learn mechanics, get an achievement, etc.

nokturnihs

One other thing - I'm not an idiot - I KNOW games like dark souls or elden ring aren't something I'm ever gonna enjoy. I am good at build crafting and ignore meta because I play RPGs to make my own choices, my own characters and because I like that diversity that RPGs offer and choice is important to me and meta is kinda counter to all that. I've never cared that my weirdo builds don't ever beat out meta builds in the numbers game. Only that i can get through content and enjoy the experience.

I've also been coding since my Atari 400 days and before being forced into medical retirement did some amazing projects professionally for enterprise customers and in other areas so while I've never been a game dev I've tweaked mods for other games, put some out there for others and most of the technical aspects of game dev I at least have a basic understanding of (it's just not something I'm great at, particularly animation, meshes, modelling and audio). Most of the things that would help people like me the most (toggled buffs, world tiers, etc etc) aren't all that difficult to implement from a coding/server perspective. Changing a dynamic value (Magicka available) to reserve Magicka vs a timer running the ability for X seconds and reducing that variable aren't difficult. Timers can be problematic sometimes sure but it's not difficult. Some are more challenging (world tiers) but most of the work is already done, just need to implement more scalability on loot table variables, enemy health/damage values and deal with the instance layering.

A clever dev could easily implement a system giving players the options too in most those things, like allowing molten weapons to be hot swapped between a toggle and an activation, or making hardened ward a toggle that activated on damage taken but with an added cooldown similar to the passive bubble shield that's already in game (name escaping me at the moment). A ton of little changes that wouldn't cost much in code revisions but would work to tremendous effect improving the gameplay for abled and disabled players, and give them more choices and ways to craft whatever meta is the gold standard at the time or ignore at their leisure. Most would reduce the strain caused by IPS and make a more fluid approach to new players.

J18696

Honestly just sounds like you are hanging out in the wrong crowd of people unless you are planning to start progressing hardmode vdsr or other dlc trials no reason your standard heavy attack build can't compete as others have said you might need to find a new guild for now because alot of these suggestions you have like molten weapons being a set ect are most likely already on the agenda looking at how siphon attacks sustsain for example now just passively works without a cast

Ezhh

nokturnihs wrote: »

So some of you have been "why you attacking the way I play, try and ruin it for everyone" - same. Why'd you attack the way we played, ruined it for everyone? How does it impact you other than challenge your ego? In order for me to voice ANY requests for changes to make the game more accessible to people I need to deal with all the hate from comments like some of yours, so tell me - how do I send feedback to ZOS without being told I'm a liar, a worthless piece of trash, a bad player and all the other colorful character assassinations you guys love to employ? It's obviously possible - you got your way with HA, oaken soul and don't tell me the downgrade wasn't significant because it was. I'm not an idiot and did a parse or two and it changed a lot. I never was gonna be able to hit the numbers some YouTubers or normal folks could reach but that's ok.

I'm apparently wasting my time here. It's not worth the barrage of hostility from people that would probably eat a bullet after a single day of dealing with my every day, and I've been dealing with this for 15 years and got about 30 to go.

I'm one of the people who has asked you not to attack my preferred way of playing, but I haven't done any of these things. I've actually tried to offer some help, but my questions aimed at gaining more insight into how to help you have been ignored.

I'll end my involvement here by again asking that you don't generalize what some people may have said and done to every end game player in ESO. Many of us have dedicated a great deal of time to helping people get into the game no matter the difficulties they face and are honestly tired of the generalized insults that get sent back to us in turn.

Jaimeh

OP I'm curious, did you actually test arcanist on the PTS? The difference is insignificant, it will still pull much further ahead than any other class. And HA builds are still viable and doing nicely. Having easier build and rotation options is just to give people a chance to do harder content more accessibly, not to make clearing content with low effort--there's a difference. Ever since Oakensoul got introduced (and you never really heard complains about this topic before it) there's so much undue rage at ZOS--I mean you can already do trifectas with such builds, what more can they do, wrap the achievements in a gift box? After a point it stops being about accessibility (which is in a good spot the past few years) and more about people who actually can use more complex build just wanting an easier time.

Dovahkiin02191973

I think it is time for all of us to stop entertaining this guy and this thread should be closed because of his comments

Morimizo

"Our goals here are to slightly peel back the ease of damage production the class has, in hopes to incentivize slightly more complex rotations to regain the damage"

The bolded sections are your answer for what ZOS' intentions are and have always been regarding nerfs (ignore the redundant uses of slightly, they're just padding to soften the blow). This is a combat system consisting of high APM (or APS really) for success, and DPS is not increased by overlevelling (I present the mostly horizontal and quickly finite nature of the CP system), or even gear all that much. Skill and experience with the combat are factors of course, but the main goal is to keep players as busy as possible. It's why most buffs, debuffs, shields, etc. are temporary, to keep the 'complex rotation'---which soon becomes monotonous---constant. @nokturnihs , those of us who have difficulty in maintaining such a pace of input, whether for genuine irl physical or latency reasons (I empathize greatly with you, and agree with many of your points), unfortunately have to accept that this is what the devs (and I assume most of the players) want in a combat system. Perhaps there will be improvements to its accessibility in the future, but not holding my breath; the competitive nature of MMOs, and the incessant drive to as perfectly as possible balance the content, PvP or PvE, makes it nigh impossible.

nokturnihs

Morimizo wrote: »

"Our goals here are to slightly peel back the ease of damage production the class has, in hopes to incentivize slightly more complex rotations to regain the damage"

The bolded sections are your answer for what ZOS' intentions are and have always been regarding nerfs (ignore the redundant uses of slightly, they're just padding to soften the blow). This is a combat system consisting of high APM (or APS really) for success, and DPS is not increased by overlevelling (I present the mostly horizontal and quickly finite nature of the CP system), or even gear all that much. Skill and experience with the combat are factors of course, but the main goal is to keep players as busy as possible. It's why most buffs, debuffs, shields, etc. are temporary, to keep the 'complex rotation'---which soon becomes monotonous---constant. @nokturnihs , those of us who have difficulty in maintaining such a pace of input, whether for genuine irl physical or latency reasons (I empathize greatly with you, and agree with many of your points), unfortunately have to accept that this is what the devs (and I assume most of the players) want in a combat system. Perhaps there will be improvements to its accessibility in the future, but not holding my breath; the competitive nature of MMOs, and the incessant drive to as perfectly as possible balance the content, PvP or PvE, makes it nigh impossible.

I think you're right and thank you for the bolded comments. That does come as close as ZOS gets to directly addressing their intent and that means that as the game gets more content in the future it's gonna be further from what's inside my wheelhouse (especially considering my condition is degenerative).

Thank you.

PrincessOfThieves

nokturnihs wrote: »

PrincessOfThieves wrote: »

Oakensoul HA build still works, it's just not OP anymore. It allows you to do pretty much any vet dungeons or trial. And arcanists are still very powerful and easy to play. I honestly don't understand what you're even complaining about.
But more importantly, you should not speak for all disabled people. As someone who's struggling with health issues and will never get all of ESO' many achievements, I sympatize with your situation, but I do not think that the game should be dumbed down so that everyone can cheese everything. Wanting an easy win button has nothing to do with having a disability, there are actually disabled gamers who enjoy challenging games, like this dude, for example.
ESO is not nearly as difficult as many other games on the market, and the only things in pve that have high performance requirements are vet dlc hardmodes and trifectas. And even then you can always just do normal or non-hm veteran versions and experience the same content on lower difficulty. It's basically an equivalent of lowering difficulty in a single-player game.

Never claimed I was speaking for all disabled people. Other than an attempt at devaluing any comments I've made I'm not sure why you'd think I was.

I do enjoy challenging content but there's different kinds of challenges right? I'm pretty good at games with faster combat than ESO because there's less physical IPS requirements or the controls are more suited to people who can't or don't want to hit a button every half second.

One example would be toggles for buffs that reserve Magicka rather than a mandatory button press to maintain uptime every X seconds.

Having LA and HA on a separate track so holding Right trigger (in my case) vs another button will run light or heavy combos individually.

Heck, PoE2 is supposedly doing something where one "combo gem" will fire multiple skills at once. Stuff like that would help dramatically.

The community narrative seems to be if you can't meet the IPS you shouldn't play. Why?

If you for example wanted to put up molten weapons as a set and forget toggle that reserved an appropriate amount of Magicka and it reduced your button presses per minute significantly, what's wrong with that? What's wrong with 2 button blah blah whatever? The enemies have the same health, the environmental hazards are still the same. The physical investment is lowered which ultimately increases the time people can play without getting physically shredded and for those of us with different issues it's the difference between trying to keep up with the sequence of buttons you're pressing while focusing on movement, what your opponent is doing, what your group is doing.

Do I really want light attack weaving to go away? No, I would much rather have effective change that makes the game enjoyable for all. If story or solo mode is on ZOS's Todo list then great, couldn't come fast enough.

Also furious with the community and it's hard to enjoy any ESO without the black cloud of try-hards taking down anything for casual players because of cliquishness and other flavors of that.

Oh and the chatter about guild mates - no my guild mates were great, helpful, living, considerate and amazing people (abled, disabled, try hards even) - but it was a smallish guild 70ish at most, usually only 5-10 people on at a time in best case. When I took a long break from the game a bunch of them bounced too for the same reasons. Some went off to other guilds and most are just rolling logins half the time because we're desperate for changes that aren't pandering to the try hard crowd at the expense of others.

The toxicity was from regular trial groups/guilds, pubs and here in the forums.

That's the title of your post. You're making it sound like ZOS in not trying to accomodate for disabled players, even though they do. Even though there are some things that can be improved (toggling bright flashes etc), they keep adding things like custom aoe colors, chat narration and other things that are meant to help disabled folks. Arcanists even have aim assist for their beam so that it's easier to control. Being able to do top dps no matter what is not accessibility, it's just breaking the game's balance. The thing is, the sheer number of different issues people are dealing with and all the different playstyles make it impossible to make everything doable for any player with any build. That is why we have different difficulty settings.

One bar builds with Oakensoul are very capable at the moment, they can do 90k dps or even a bit more which is enough for pretty much anything except some new hardmodes and trifectas, and those are meant to be very difficult.
Same with arcanists - the nerf they got only matters if you're score pushing or something. Is 120k+ really not enough?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gTM9j1-8PKw

The community is not a monolith. There are guilds that want all of their players to perform super well and keep improving. There are groups where trash talk and trolling are normalized. But at the same time, there are friendly and relaxed guilds - like the one you mentioned. You just need to find one, and there are many discords that allow you to join vet trial runs with 1 bar builds.

nokturnihs

PrincessOfThieves wrote: »

nokturnihs wrote: »

PrincessOfThieves wrote: »

Oakensoul HA build still works, it's just not OP anymore. It allows you to do pretty much any vet dungeons or trial. And arcanists are still very powerful and easy to play. I honestly don't understand what you're even complaining about.
But more importantly, you should not speak for all disabled people. As someone who's struggling with health issues and will never get all of ESO' many achievements, I sympatize with your situation, but I do not think that the game should be dumbed down so that everyone can cheese everything. Wanting an easy win button has nothing to do with having a disability, there are actually disabled gamers who enjoy challenging games, like this dude, for example.
ESO is not nearly as difficult as many other games on the market, and the only things in pve that have high performance requirements are vet dlc hardmodes and trifectas. And even then you can always just do normal or non-hm veteran versions and experience the same content on lower difficulty. It's basically an equivalent of lowering difficulty in a single-player game.

Never claimed I was speaking for all disabled people. Other than an attempt at devaluing any comments I've made I'm not sure why you'd think I was.

I do enjoy challenging content but there's different kinds of challenges right? I'm pretty good at games with faster combat than ESO because there's less physical IPS requirements or the controls are more suited to people who can't or don't want to hit a button every half second.

One example would be toggles for buffs that reserve Magicka rather than a mandatory button press to maintain uptime every X seconds.

Having LA and HA on a separate track so holding Right trigger (in my case) vs another button will run light or heavy combos individually.

Heck, PoE2 is supposedly doing something where one "combo gem" will fire multiple skills at once. Stuff like that would help dramatically.

The community narrative seems to be if you can't meet the IPS you shouldn't play. Why?

If you for example wanted to put up molten weapons as a set and forget toggle that reserved an appropriate amount of Magicka and it reduced your button presses per minute significantly, what's wrong with that? What's wrong with 2 button blah blah whatever? The enemies have the same health, the environmental hazards are still the same. The physical investment is lowered which ultimately increases the time people can play without getting physically shredded and for those of us with different issues it's the difference between trying to keep up with the sequence of buttons you're pressing while focusing on movement, what your opponent is doing, what your group is doing.

Do I really want light attack weaving to go away? No, I would much rather have effective change that makes the game enjoyable for all. If story or solo mode is on ZOS's Todo list then great, couldn't come fast enough.

Also furious with the community and it's hard to enjoy any ESO without the black cloud of try-hards taking down anything for casual players because of cliquishness and other flavors of that.

Oh and the chatter about guild mates - no my guild mates were great, helpful, living, considerate and amazing people (abled, disabled, try hards even) - but it was a smallish guild 70ish at most, usually only 5-10 people on at a time in best case. When I took a long break from the game a bunch of them bounced too for the same reasons. Some went off to other guilds and most are just rolling logins half the time because we're desperate for changes that aren't pandering to the try hard crowd at the expense of others.

The toxicity was from regular trial groups/guilds, pubs and here in the forums.

That's the title of your post. You're making it sound like ZOS in not trying to accomodate for disabled players, even though they do. Even though there are some things that can be improved (toggling bright flashes etc), they keep adding things like custom aoe colors, chat narration and other things that are meant to help disabled folks. Arcanists even have aim assist for their beam so that it's easier to control. Being able to do top dps no matter what is not accessibility, it's just breaking the game's balance. The thing is, the sheer number of different issues people are dealing with and all the different playstyles make it impossible to make everything doable for any player with any build. That is why we have different difficulty settings.

One bar builds with Oakensoul are very capable at the moment, they can do 90k dps or even a bit more which is enough for pretty much anything except some new hardmodes and trifectas, and those are meant to be very difficult.
Same with arcanists - the nerf they got only matters if you're score pushing or something. Is 120k+ really not enough?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gTM9j1-8PKw

The community is not a monolith. There are guilds that want all of their players to perform super well and keep improving. There are groups where trash talk and trolling are normalized. But at the same time, there are friendly and relaxed guilds - like the one you mentioned. You just need to find one, and there are many discords that allow you to join vet trial runs with 1 bar builds.

Even at my best and using the same exact setup as the builds you depicted I haven't been able to achieve that DPS and none of my friends who tried the same thing were able to reach those numbers as well so while that's good for a few people, that's a garbage example like most of the "build videos" we've tried from multiple content creators. Either their numbers are off, they're just that much better or maybe a bit of both. Mind you I'm talking about HA 1B Sorc and a couple other 1b, 2b builds we got interested in. Usually (as an average) our best most try hard buddy could come close but usually at least 20k less than most of the content claiming 100k+ DPS builds. I took a break not too long after arcanist released but regardless - even using a meta build I seem to sit at max maybe 60k? My arcanist is probably my most playable character at the moment and she sits at 40-50k which seems to be where my DPS caps in most cases at least outside of when plaguebreak was causing crazy burst DPS before it got turned off for PvE.

Either way Princess another person pointed out that ZOS has intentions going forward or making for more IPS/APS intense combat as a Philosophy going forward. That's not going to work for me in the long term.

Also just to reiterate, advocating for disabled people is different from advocating for all disabled people or trying to speak for all disabled people. It's hard to see your arguments as anything other than another an attempt to trivialize my position or points.

In regards to guilds. My guild was fine and it was great. I find trolling and trash talk being a normalized thing abhorrent because it's basically just hurting other people for your own enjoyment. That said each guild has it's own motivations and culture for sure. The problem wasn't my choice in who I played this game with regularly (AKA my friends) - the problem was from outside of those people. My people actually worked to build each other up solve problems together, help other overcome content they were struggling with and we build crafted, tested builds and did a lot of fun stuff together (we even did PvP although pretty much everyone was terrible at it and it kind of pissed off the cyrodiil crowd).

TLDR though - you won. I'm gonna be quitting the game eventually because that's where the game is going. It's not for me anymore, between my health decay, some seriously awful people and the vision ZOS has for combat going forward. If you'd read my last comment then you could've saved yourself the time and torn down someone new with fake outrage and targeted harassment if that was your intention? Whatever you do try to enjoy it and I hope it entertains you.

soulus42

While HA builds, one bar builds and Arcanist have received nerfs, I don't think they've been nerfed into irrelevance (especially Arcanist) and would still be viable in the majority of content. Even after the changes to Lightning Staff you still see Oakensorc HA builds running around.

"Our goals here are to slightly peel back the ease of damage production the class has, in hopes to incentivize slightly more complex rotations to regain the damage"

While that's true, there's also the comments from the Necromancer change that would say the opposite:

"We’re finally taking a stab at adjusting this ability to help Necromancers who don’t want to constantly manage a short duration ability, as it put a significant demand on creating complex and dynamic rotations in real combat."

Given the developer comments in this patch and changes to CP, DoTs, gear and the hybrid push, wouldn't it be reasonable to think that ZOS is trying to cut back on complexity but still enough to keep you engaged while finding ways to narrow the dps gap between players?

PrincessOfThieves

I am not trying to "win" anything. I just don't understand this "all or nothing approach".
You can play and enjoy the game without having really high dps or doing trifectas and such. Most of us do. It's like that with any other game, thousands of people enjoy games like Counter-Strike even though they know they will never be on the level of esports CS players. I personally don't play most single-player games on higher difficulties, but I still enjoy them even though I am missing a few achievements.

Even at my best and using the same exact setup as the builds you depicted I haven't been able to achieve that DPS and none of my friends who tried the same thing were able to reach those numbers as well so while that's good for a few people, that's a garbage example like most of the "build videos" we've tried from multiple content creators. Either their numbers are off, they're just that much better or maybe a bit of both. Mind you I'm talking about HA 1B Sorc and a couple other 1b, 2b builds we got interested in. Usually (as an average) our best most try hard buddy could come close but usually at least 20k less than most of the content claiming 100k+ DPS builds. I took a break not too long after arcanist released but regardless - even using a meta build I seem to sit at max maybe 60k? My arcanist is probably my most playable character at the moment and she sits at 40-50k which seems to be where my DPS caps in most cases at least outside of when plaguebreak was causing crazy burst DPS before it got turned off for PvE.

The reason I posted this video was to prove that arcanist's dps ceiling didn't really change all that much. It wasn't a giant devastating nerf like those 30% nerfs of the past. It's very likely that your character won't feel that nerf at all. If you're on pc, you can download combat metrics and look at how much damage your beam does - I bet that 7% of that is not going to make or break your build.
Perhaps for you the 1 bar Oakensoul version of stamina arcanist build would work better?

Either way Princess another person pointed out that ZOS has intentions going forward or making for more IPS/APS intense combat as a Philosophy going forward. That's not going to work for me in the long term.

They just don't want people in the endgame to rely on "cheese" strategies. If you take a look at https://www.esologs.com/, you will see that most trial groups are full of arcanists because it's the easiest class with very high survivability. They just want to make it less of a clear favorite.
If they wanted more intense playstyles to be the most effective, nbs and necros would be on top, not arcanists.

Also just to reiterate, advocating for disabled people is different from advocating for all disabled people or trying to speak for all disabled people. It's hard to see your arguments as anything other than another an attempt to trivialize my position or points.

I am not trivializing your position and struggles. I am just saying that some of your arguments are based off of incorrect assumptions. This, in particular:
"So we lost HA builds, most one bar builds aren't viable for trials and the like anymore and arcanist (a disabled friendly class) is getting significant nerfs"
This is completely untrue. I do trials and usually there is one or more HA/1 bar player in every guild run.
That is my point - the crazy good performance requriements only apply to less than 1% of things you can do in this game. The rest can be done with moderate dps.There are discords that allow people with 50-60k dps in training trials. It is only a problem in hardmodes and such. Yes, you won't get speedruns and such but keep in mind that most able-bodied players don't do extremely optimized runs, either - some don't have time for that, some want to play casually etc. So you can still find a place among mid-game crowd and enjoy the game. You old guild sounds awesome, and I am sure there are others like this, you just got to look for them.

In regards to guilds. My guild was fine and it was great. I find trolling and trash talk being a normalized thing abhorrent because it's basically just hurting other people for your own enjoyment. That said each guild has it's own motivations and culture for sure. The problem wasn't my choice in who I played this game with regularly (AKA my friends) - the problem was from outside of those people. My people actually worked to build each other up solve problems together, help other overcome content they were struggling with and we build crafted, tested builds and did a lot of fun stuff together (we even did PvP although pretty much everyone was terrible at it and it kind of pissed off the cyrodiil crowd).

TLDR though - you won. I'm gonna be quitting the game eventually because that's where the game is going. It's not for me anymore, between my health decay, some seriously awful people and the vision ZOS has for combat going forward. If you'd read my last comment then you could've saved yourself the time and torn down someone new with fake outrage and targeted harassment if that was your intention? Whatever you do try to enjoy it and I hope it entertains you.

You're accusing me and others of toxicity, yet you're asking the devs to remove the playstyles other people enjoy. That is not constructive to begin with.
And yes it really does suck to have physical limitations. And none of us is getting younger and healthier. But the life still goes on and you can find enjoyment in it. I know that, I've been depressed and desperate for many years because of my health issues and other stuff, but you cannot only focus on negatives. It sounds like you have good friends, you can find a community that will accept you and accomodate for you, and why would you care what people in endgame groups do? Because most of your complaints (like not being able to bring a HA build in a trial) mostly apply to them.

Major_Toughness

It's not other players fault.

If you want to blame anyone it's the team that designs the content. If they make it so it's not completable with less than X DPS then of course any group will want to bolster their chances and take high DPS players so they can beat the X DPS.

You shouldn't just get to do free damage because you don't want to learn the game, or because you are disabled. But if the game is not catered to you that's not other players fault.

As others have said, HA builds and Arcanist are still plenty viable. Arcanist will still be meta in PvE. Stop.

nokturnihs

PrincessOfThieves wrote: »

I am not trying to "win" anything. I just don't understand this "all or nothing approach".
You can play and enjoy the game without having really high dps or doing trifectas and such. Most of us do. It's like that with any other game, thousands of people enjoy games like Counter-Strike even though they know they will never be on the level of esports CS players. I personally don't play most single-player games on higher difficulties, but I still enjoy them even though I am missing a few achievements.

Even at my best and using the same exact setup as the builds you depicted I haven't been able to achieve that DPS and none of my friends who tried the same thing were able to reach those numbers as well so while that's good for a few people, that's a garbage example like most of the "build videos" we've tried from multiple content creators. Either their numbers are off, they're just that much better or maybe a bit of both. Mind you I'm talking about HA 1B Sorc and a couple other 1b, 2b builds we got interested in. Usually (as an average) our best most try hard buddy could come close but usually at least 20k less than most of the content claiming 100k+ DPS builds. I took a break not too long after arcanist released but regardless - even using a meta build I seem to sit at max maybe 60k? My arcanist is probably my most playable character at the moment and she sits at 40-50k which seems to be where my DPS caps in most cases at least outside of when plaguebreak was causing crazy burst DPS before it got turned off for PvE.

The reason I posted this video was to prove that arcanist's dps ceiling didn't really change all that much. It wasn't a giant devastating nerf like those 30% nerfs of the past. It's very likely that your character won't feel that nerf at all. If you're on pc, you can download combat metrics and look at how much damage your beam does - I bet that 7% of that is not going to make or break your build.
Perhaps for you the 1 bar Oakensoul version of stamina arcanist build would work better?

Either way Princess another person pointed out that ZOS has intentions going forward or making for more IPS/APS intense combat as a Philosophy going forward. That's not going to work for me in the long term.

They just don't want people in the endgame to rely on "cheese" strategies. If you take a look at https://www.esologs.com/, you will see that most trial groups are full of arcanists because it's the easiest class with very high survivability. They just want to make it less of a clear favorite.
If they wanted more intense playstyles to be the most effective, nbs and necros would be on top, not arcanists.

Also just to reiterate, advocating for disabled people is different from advocating for all disabled people or trying to speak for all disabled people. It's hard to see your arguments as anything other than another an attempt to trivialize my position or points.

I am not trivializing your position and struggles. I am just saying that some of your arguments are based off of incorrect assumptions. This, in particular:
"So we lost HA builds, most one bar builds aren't viable for trials and the like anymore and arcanist (a disabled friendly class) is getting significant nerfs"
This is completely untrue. I do trials and usually there is one or more HA/1 bar player in every guild run.
That is my point - the crazy good performance requriements only apply to less than 1% of things you can do in this game. The rest can be done with moderate dps.There are discords that allow people with 50-60k dps in training trials. It is only a problem in hardmodes and such. Yes, you won't get speedruns and such but keep in mind that most able-bodied players don't do extremely optimized runs, either - some don't have time for that, some want to play casually etc. So you can still find a place among mid-game crowd and enjoy the game. You old guild sounds awesome, and I am sure there are others like this, you just got to look for them.

In regards to guilds. My guild was fine and it was great. I find trolling and trash talk being a normalized thing abhorrent because it's basically just hurting other people for your own enjoyment. That said each guild has it's own motivations and culture for sure. The problem wasn't my choice in who I played this game with regularly (AKA my friends) - the problem was from outside of those people. My people actually worked to build each other up solve problems together, help other overcome content they were struggling with and we build crafted, tested builds and did a lot of fun stuff together (we even did PvP although pretty much everyone was terrible at it and it kind of pissed off the cyrodiil crowd).

TLDR though - you won. I'm gonna be quitting the game eventually because that's where the game is going. It's not for me anymore, between my health decay, some seriously awful people and the vision ZOS has for combat going forward. If you'd read my last comment then you could've saved yourself the time and torn down someone new with fake outrage and targeted harassment if that was your intention? Whatever you do try to enjoy it and I hope it entertains you.

You're accusing me and others of toxicity, yet you're asking the devs to remove the playstyles other people enjoy. That is not constructive to begin with.
And yes it really does suck to have physical limitations. And none of us is getting younger and healthier. But the life still goes on and you can find enjoyment in it. I know that, I've been depressed and desperate for many years because of my health issues and other stuff, but you cannot only focus on negatives. It sounds like you have good friends, you can find a community that will accept you and accomodate for you, and why would you care what people in endgame groups do? Because most of your complaints (like not being able to bring a HA build in a trial) mostly apply to them.

I have had CMX installed for quite a while and my lightning staff HA builds took a significant hit in their DPS with the ha changes to storm masters and the destruction staff passive effect on AOE. Don't pretend it didn't because mathematically it did and in real world gameplay it did. Those changes were made at the request of other players so I'm still not sure how that differs from what I was suggesting. Either way, STOP. As soon as my ESO+ expires I'm done. I don't really care any more.

nokturnihs

Major_Toughness wrote: »

It's not other players fault.

If you want to blame anyone it's the team that designs the content. If they make it so it's not completable with less than X DPS then of course any group will want to bolster their chances and take high DPS players so they can beat the X DPS.

You shouldn't just get to do free damage because you don't want to learn the game, or because you are disabled. But if the game is not catered to you that's not other players fault.

As others have said, HA builds and Arcanist are still plenty viable. Arcanist will still be meta in PvE. Stop.

I've been playing the game since launch day, know the game and how to play it. I'm a technical person and have always been into build crafting and the numbers. It's not "free damage" unless you've got a really warped idea of what free damage means. I AM frustrated with the devs because of the changes they make that seemingly tend to go with the voices from the group already at the top of the endgame and do little to benefit the people outside of that skill level.

You stop. Read the comments. You didn't need to post anything but did so to try and put me down.

J18696

nokturnihs wrote: »

PrincessOfThieves wrote: »

I am not trying to "win" anything. I just don't understand this "all or nothing approach".
You can play and enjoy the game without having really high dps or doing trifectas and such. Most of us do. It's like that with any other game, thousands of people enjoy games like Counter-Strike even though they know they will never be on the level of esports CS players. I personally don't play most single-player games on higher difficulties, but I still enjoy them even though I am missing a few achievements.

Even at my best and using the same exact setup as the builds you depicted I haven't been able to achieve that DPS and none of my friends who tried the same thing were able to reach those numbers as well so while that's good for a few people, that's a garbage example like most of the "build videos" we've tried from multiple content creators. Either their numbers are off, they're just that much better or maybe a bit of both. Mind you I'm talking about HA 1B Sorc and a couple other 1b, 2b builds we got interested in. Usually (as an average) our best most try hard buddy could come close but usually at least 20k less than most of the content claiming 100k+ DPS builds. I took a break not too long after arcanist released but regardless - even using a meta build I seem to sit at max maybe 60k? My arcanist is probably my most playable character at the moment and she sits at 40-50k which seems to be where my DPS caps in most cases at least outside of when plaguebreak was causing crazy burst DPS before it got turned off for PvE.

The reason I posted this video was to prove that arcanist's dps ceiling didn't really change all that much. It wasn't a giant devastating nerf like those 30% nerfs of the past. It's very likely that your character won't feel that nerf at all. If you're on pc, you can download combat metrics and look at how much damage your beam does - I bet that 7% of that is not going to make or break your build.
Perhaps for you the 1 bar Oakensoul version of stamina arcanist build would work better?

Either way Princess another person pointed out that ZOS has intentions going forward or making for more IPS/APS intense combat as a Philosophy going forward. That's not going to work for me in the long term.

They just don't want people in the endgame to rely on "cheese" strategies. If you take a look at https://www.esologs.com/, you will see that most trial groups are full of arcanists because it's the easiest class with very high survivability. They just want to make it less of a clear favorite.
If they wanted more intense playstyles to be the most effective, nbs and necros would be on top, not arcanists.

Also just to reiterate, advocating for disabled people is different from advocating for all disabled people or trying to speak for all disabled people. It's hard to see your arguments as anything other than another an attempt to trivialize my position or points.

I am not trivializing your position and struggles. I am just saying that some of your arguments are based off of incorrect assumptions. This, in particular:
"So we lost HA builds, most one bar builds aren't viable for trials and the like anymore and arcanist (a disabled friendly class) is getting significant nerfs"
This is completely untrue. I do trials and usually there is one or more HA/1 bar player in every guild run.
That is my point - the crazy good performance requriements only apply to less than 1% of things you can do in this game. The rest can be done with moderate dps.There are discords that allow people with 50-60k dps in training trials. It is only a problem in hardmodes and such. Yes, you won't get speedruns and such but keep in mind that most able-bodied players don't do extremely optimized runs, either - some don't have time for that, some want to play casually etc. So you can still find a place among mid-game crowd and enjoy the game. You old guild sounds awesome, and I am sure there are others like this, you just got to look for them.

In regards to guilds. My guild was fine and it was great. I find trolling and trash talk being a normalized thing abhorrent because it's basically just hurting other people for your own enjoyment. That said each guild has it's own motivations and culture for sure. The problem wasn't my choice in who I played this game with regularly (AKA my friends) - the problem was from outside of those people. My people actually worked to build each other up solve problems together, help other overcome content they were struggling with and we build crafted, tested builds and did a lot of fun stuff together (we even did PvP although pretty much everyone was terrible at it and it kind of pissed off the cyrodiil crowd).

TLDR though - you won. I'm gonna be quitting the game eventually because that's where the game is going. It's not for me anymore, between my health decay, some seriously awful people and the vision ZOS has for combat going forward. If you'd read my last comment then you could've saved yourself the time and torn down someone new with fake outrage and targeted harassment if that was your intention? Whatever you do try to enjoy it and I hope it entertains you.

You're accusing me and others of toxicity, yet you're asking the devs to remove the playstyles other people enjoy. That is not constructive to begin with.
And yes it really does suck to have physical limitations. And none of us is getting younger and healthier. But the life still goes on and you can find enjoyment in it. I know that, I've been depressed and desperate for many years because of my health issues and other stuff, but you cannot only focus on negatives. It sounds like you have good friends, you can find a community that will accept you and accomodate for you, and why would you care what people in endgame groups do? Because most of your complaints (like not being able to bring a HA build in a trial) mostly apply to them.

I have had CMX installed for quite a while and my lightning staff HA builds took a significant hit in their DPS with the ha changes to storm masters and the destruction staff passive effect on AOE. Don't pretend it didn't because mathematically it did and in real world gameplay it did. Those changes were made at the request of other players so I'm still not sure how that differs from what I was suggesting. Either way, STOP. As soon as my ESO+ expires I'm done. I don't really care any more.

you totally can reach 90k dps range on the typical heavy attack sorc now on the live server with the right group buffs the problem is the people reaching these higher numbers are taking advantage of off balance windows with overload adding slight more technically approach to the rotation than just simply holding down heavy attack and recasting curse and a pet again as people have pointed out the more advanced players are taking something that is really easy to pull off and pulling ahead by these more advanced methods in this case using ult in off balance

Braffin

nokturnihs wrote: »

PrincessOfThieves wrote: »

I am not trying to "win" anything. I just don't understand this "all or nothing approach".
You can play and enjoy the game without having really high dps or doing trifectas and such. Most of us do. It's like that with any other game, thousands of people enjoy games like Counter-Strike even though they know they will never be on the level of esports CS players. I personally don't play most single-player games on higher difficulties, but I still enjoy them even though I am missing a few achievements.

Even at my best and using the same exact setup as the builds you depicted I haven't been able to achieve that DPS and none of my friends who tried the same thing were able to reach those numbers as well so while that's good for a few people, that's a garbage example like most of the "build videos" we've tried from multiple content creators. Either their numbers are off, they're just that much better or maybe a bit of both. Mind you I'm talking about HA 1B Sorc and a couple other 1b, 2b builds we got interested in. Usually (as an average) our best most try hard buddy could come close but usually at least 20k less than most of the content claiming 100k+ DPS builds. I took a break not too long after arcanist released but regardless - even using a meta build I seem to sit at max maybe 60k? My arcanist is probably my most playable character at the moment and she sits at 40-50k which seems to be where my DPS caps in most cases at least outside of when plaguebreak was causing crazy burst DPS before it got turned off for PvE.

The reason I posted this video was to prove that arcanist's dps ceiling didn't really change all that much. It wasn't a giant devastating nerf like those 30% nerfs of the past. It's very likely that your character won't feel that nerf at all. If you're on pc, you can download combat metrics and look at how much damage your beam does - I bet that 7% of that is not going to make or break your build.
Perhaps for you the 1 bar Oakensoul version of stamina arcanist build would work better?

Either way Princess another person pointed out that ZOS has intentions going forward or making for more IPS/APS intense combat as a Philosophy going forward. That's not going to work for me in the long term.

They just don't want people in the endgame to rely on "cheese" strategies. If you take a look at https://www.esologs.com/, you will see that most trial groups are full of arcanists because it's the easiest class with very high survivability. They just want to make it less of a clear favorite.
If they wanted more intense playstyles to be the most effective, nbs and necros would be on top, not arcanists.

Also just to reiterate, advocating for disabled people is different from advocating for all disabled people or trying to speak for all disabled people. It's hard to see your arguments as anything other than another an attempt to trivialize my position or points.

I am not trivializing your position and struggles. I am just saying that some of your arguments are based off of incorrect assumptions. This, in particular:
"So we lost HA builds, most one bar builds aren't viable for trials and the like anymore and arcanist (a disabled friendly class) is getting significant nerfs"
This is completely untrue. I do trials and usually there is one or more HA/1 bar player in every guild run.
That is my point - the crazy good performance requriements only apply to less than 1% of things you can do in this game. The rest can be done with moderate dps.There are discords that allow people with 50-60k dps in training trials. It is only a problem in hardmodes and such. Yes, you won't get speedruns and such but keep in mind that most able-bodied players don't do extremely optimized runs, either - some don't have time for that, some want to play casually etc. So you can still find a place among mid-game crowd and enjoy the game. You old guild sounds awesome, and I am sure there are others like this, you just got to look for them.

In regards to guilds. My guild was fine and it was great. I find trolling and trash talk being a normalized thing abhorrent because it's basically just hurting other people for your own enjoyment. That said each guild has it's own motivations and culture for sure. The problem wasn't my choice in who I played this game with regularly (AKA my friends) - the problem was from outside of those people. My people actually worked to build each other up solve problems together, help other overcome content they were struggling with and we build crafted, tested builds and did a lot of fun stuff together (we even did PvP although pretty much everyone was terrible at it and it kind of pissed off the cyrodiil crowd).

TLDR though - you won. I'm gonna be quitting the game eventually because that's where the game is going. It's not for me anymore, between my health decay, some seriously awful people and the vision ZOS has for combat going forward. If you'd read my last comment then you could've saved yourself the time and torn down someone new with fake outrage and targeted harassment if that was your intention? Whatever you do try to enjoy it and I hope it entertains you.

You're accusing me and others of toxicity, yet you're asking the devs to remove the playstyles other people enjoy. That is not constructive to begin with.
And yes it really does suck to have physical limitations. And none of us is getting younger and healthier. But the life still goes on and you can find enjoyment in it. I know that, I've been depressed and desperate for many years because of my health issues and other stuff, but you cannot only focus on negatives. It sounds like you have good friends, you can find a community that will accept you and accomodate for you, and why would you care what people in endgame groups do? Because most of your complaints (like not being able to bring a HA build in a trial) mostly apply to them.

I have had CMX installed for quite a while and my lightning staff HA builds took a significant hit in their DPS with the ha changes to storm masters and the destruction staff passive effect on AOE. Don't pretend it didn't because mathematically it did and in real world gameplay it did. Those changes were made at the request of other players so I'm still not sure how that differs from what I was suggesting. Either way, STOP. As soon as my ESO+ expires I'm done. I don't really care any more.

Of course this changes had effects mathematically. That's why they were made.

Storm master required a fully optimized group composition tho, which isn't exactly casual gameplay anymore. The time of lazily cheesing trifectas is thankfully over, the devaluation of meaningful difficulties stopped.

Casual players with unoptimized build weren't affected tho and still use oakensoul with good results in all content up to vet hm trials.

You really shouldn't pretend being casual if you truly aren't.

nokturnihs

Braffin wrote: »

nokturnihs wrote: »

PrincessOfThieves wrote: »

I am not trying to "win" anything. I just don't understand this "all or nothing approach".
You can play and enjoy the game without having really high dps or doing trifectas and such. Most of us do. It's like that with any other game, thousands of people enjoy games like Counter-Strike even though they know they will never be on the level of esports CS players. I personally don't play most single-player games on higher difficulties, but I still enjoy them even though I am missing a few achievements.

Even at my best and using the same exact setup as the builds you depicted I haven't been able to achieve that DPS and none of my friends who tried the same thing were able to reach those numbers as well so while that's good for a few people, that's a garbage example like most of the "build videos" we've tried from multiple content creators. Either their numbers are off, they're just that much better or maybe a bit of both. Mind you I'm talking about HA 1B Sorc and a couple other 1b, 2b builds we got interested in. Usually (as an average) our best most try hard buddy could come close but usually at least 20k less than most of the content claiming 100k+ DPS builds. I took a break not too long after arcanist released but regardless - even using a meta build I seem to sit at max maybe 60k? My arcanist is probably my most playable character at the moment and she sits at 40-50k which seems to be where my DPS caps in most cases at least outside of when plaguebreak was causing crazy burst DPS before it got turned off for PvE.

The reason I posted this video was to prove that arcanist's dps ceiling didn't really change all that much. It wasn't a giant devastating nerf like those 30% nerfs of the past. It's very likely that your character won't feel that nerf at all. If you're on pc, you can download combat metrics and look at how much damage your beam does - I bet that 7% of that is not going to make or break your build.
Perhaps for you the 1 bar Oakensoul version of stamina arcanist build would work better?

Either way Princess another person pointed out that ZOS has intentions going forward or making for more IPS/APS intense combat as a Philosophy going forward. That's not going to work for me in the long term.

They just don't want people in the endgame to rely on "cheese" strategies. If you take a look at https://www.esologs.com/, you will see that most trial groups are full of arcanists because it's the easiest class with very high survivability. They just want to make it less of a clear favorite.
If they wanted more intense playstyles to be the most effective, nbs and necros would be on top, not arcanists.

Also just to reiterate, advocating for disabled people is different from advocating for all disabled people or trying to speak for all disabled people. It's hard to see your arguments as anything other than another an attempt to trivialize my position or points.

I am not trivializing your position and struggles. I am just saying that some of your arguments are based off of incorrect assumptions. This, in particular:
"So we lost HA builds, most one bar builds aren't viable for trials and the like anymore and arcanist (a disabled friendly class) is getting significant nerfs"
This is completely untrue. I do trials and usually there is one or more HA/1 bar player in every guild run.
That is my point - the crazy good performance requriements only apply to less than 1% of things you can do in this game. The rest can be done with moderate dps.There are discords that allow people with 50-60k dps in training trials. It is only a problem in hardmodes and such. Yes, you won't get speedruns and such but keep in mind that most able-bodied players don't do extremely optimized runs, either - some don't have time for that, some want to play casually etc. So you can still find a place among mid-game crowd and enjoy the game. You old guild sounds awesome, and I am sure there are others like this, you just got to look for them.

In regards to guilds. My guild was fine and it was great. I find trolling and trash talk being a normalized thing abhorrent because it's basically just hurting other people for your own enjoyment. That said each guild has it's own motivations and culture for sure. The problem wasn't my choice in who I played this game with regularly (AKA my friends) - the problem was from outside of those people. My people actually worked to build each other up solve problems together, help other overcome content they were struggling with and we build crafted, tested builds and did a lot of fun stuff together (we even did PvP although pretty much everyone was terrible at it and it kind of pissed off the cyrodiil crowd).

TLDR though - you won. I'm gonna be quitting the game eventually because that's where the game is going. It's not for me anymore, between my health decay, some seriously awful people and the vision ZOS has for combat going forward. If you'd read my last comment then you could've saved yourself the time and torn down someone new with fake outrage and targeted harassment if that was your intention? Whatever you do try to enjoy it and I hope it entertains you.

You're accusing me and others of toxicity, yet you're asking the devs to remove the playstyles other people enjoy. That is not constructive to begin with.
And yes it really does suck to have physical limitations. And none of us is getting younger and healthier. But the life still goes on and you can find enjoyment in it. I know that, I've been depressed and desperate for many years because of my health issues and other stuff, but you cannot only focus on negatives. It sounds like you have good friends, you can find a community that will accept you and accomodate for you, and why would you care what people in endgame groups do? Because most of your complaints (like not being able to bring a HA build in a trial) mostly apply to them.

I have had CMX installed for quite a while and my lightning staff HA builds took a significant hit in their DPS with the ha changes to storm masters and the destruction staff passive effect on AOE. Don't pretend it didn't because mathematically it did and in real world gameplay it did. Those changes were made at the request of other players so I'm still not sure how that differs from what I was suggesting. Either way, STOP. As soon as my ESO+ expires I'm done. I don't really care any more.

Of course this changes had effects mathematically. That's why they were made.

Storm master required a fully optimized group composition tho, which isn't exactly casual gameplay anymore. The time of lazily cheesing trifectas is thankfully over, the devaluation of meaningful difficulties stopped.

Casual players with unoptimized build weren't affected tho and still use oakensoul with good results in all content up to vet hm trials.

You really shouldn't pretend being casual if you truly aren't.

Installing CMX doesn't make you not a casual. Crunching numbers isn't not being casual either. Wanting more information is typically a good thing right? Wanting to improve your ability to play is a good thing too. I dunno maybe casual means different things to different people. I don't dummy hump because it does nothing for me. I'm not going to develop muscle memory because my body operates at inconsistent levels - some days my hands are totally numb and clumsy claws, some days they're not so bad. I installed CMX so I had a way to roughly compare what worked better for me than other things and mainly as a way to try and improve my abilities. I don't think that eliminates me as a casual player. I've never done a trifecta, don't really care about leaderboards (ok would LOVE to get on one for the self achievement but realistically never gonna happen), and the only thing I'm really interested trials for is access to sets I would like to try (same with PvP which is about all I'm there for when I've done it and to be fair it probably sucks for my teammates when I'm there.)

What's a casual by your definition?

CameraBeardThePirate

nokturnihs wrote: »

Braffin wrote: »

nokturnihs wrote: »

PrincessOfThieves wrote: »

I am not trying to "win" anything. I just don't understand this "all or nothing approach".
You can play and enjoy the game without having really high dps or doing trifectas and such. Most of us do. It's like that with any other game, thousands of people enjoy games like Counter-Strike even though they know they will never be on the level of esports CS players. I personally don't play most single-player games on higher difficulties, but I still enjoy them even though I am missing a few achievements.

Even at my best and using the same exact setup as the builds you depicted I haven't been able to achieve that DPS and none of my friends who tried the same thing were able to reach those numbers as well so while that's good for a few people, that's a garbage example like most of the "build videos" we've tried from multiple content creators. Either their numbers are off, they're just that much better or maybe a bit of both. Mind you I'm talking about HA 1B Sorc and a couple other 1b, 2b builds we got interested in. Usually (as an average) our best most try hard buddy could come close but usually at least 20k less than most of the content claiming 100k+ DPS builds. I took a break not too long after arcanist released but regardless - even using a meta build I seem to sit at max maybe 60k? My arcanist is probably my most playable character at the moment and she sits at 40-50k which seems to be where my DPS caps in most cases at least outside of when plaguebreak was causing crazy burst DPS before it got turned off for PvE.

The reason I posted this video was to prove that arcanist's dps ceiling didn't really change all that much. It wasn't a giant devastating nerf like those 30% nerfs of the past. It's very likely that your character won't feel that nerf at all. If you're on pc, you can download combat metrics and look at how much damage your beam does - I bet that 7% of that is not going to make or break your build.
Perhaps for you the 1 bar Oakensoul version of stamina arcanist build would work better?

Either way Princess another person pointed out that ZOS has intentions going forward or making for more IPS/APS intense combat as a Philosophy going forward. That's not going to work for me in the long term.

They just don't want people in the endgame to rely on "cheese" strategies. If you take a look at https://www.esologs.com/, you will see that most trial groups are full of arcanists because it's the easiest class with very high survivability. They just want to make it less of a clear favorite.
If they wanted more intense playstyles to be the most effective, nbs and necros would be on top, not arcanists.

Also just to reiterate, advocating for disabled people is different from advocating for all disabled people or trying to speak for all disabled people. It's hard to see your arguments as anything other than another an attempt to trivialize my position or points.

I am not trivializing your position and struggles. I am just saying that some of your arguments are based off of incorrect assumptions. This, in particular:
"So we lost HA builds, most one bar builds aren't viable for trials and the like anymore and arcanist (a disabled friendly class) is getting significant nerfs"
This is completely untrue. I do trials and usually there is one or more HA/1 bar player in every guild run.
That is my point - the crazy good performance requriements only apply to less than 1% of things you can do in this game. The rest can be done with moderate dps.There are discords that allow people with 50-60k dps in training trials. It is only a problem in hardmodes and such. Yes, you won't get speedruns and such but keep in mind that most able-bodied players don't do extremely optimized runs, either - some don't have time for that, some want to play casually etc. So you can still find a place among mid-game crowd and enjoy the game. You old guild sounds awesome, and I am sure there are others like this, you just got to look for them.

In regards to guilds. My guild was fine and it was great. I find trolling and trash talk being a normalized thing abhorrent because it's basically just hurting other people for your own enjoyment. That said each guild has it's own motivations and culture for sure. The problem wasn't my choice in who I played this game with regularly (AKA my friends) - the problem was from outside of those people. My people actually worked to build each other up solve problems together, help other overcome content they were struggling with and we build crafted, tested builds and did a lot of fun stuff together (we even did PvP although pretty much everyone was terrible at it and it kind of pissed off the cyrodiil crowd).

TLDR though - you won. I'm gonna be quitting the game eventually because that's where the game is going. It's not for me anymore, between my health decay, some seriously awful people and the vision ZOS has for combat going forward. If you'd read my last comment then you could've saved yourself the time and torn down someone new with fake outrage and targeted harassment if that was your intention? Whatever you do try to enjoy it and I hope it entertains you.

You're accusing me and others of toxicity, yet you're asking the devs to remove the playstyles other people enjoy. That is not constructive to begin with.
And yes it really does suck to have physical limitations. And none of us is getting younger and healthier. But the life still goes on and you can find enjoyment in it. I know that, I've been depressed and desperate for many years because of my health issues and other stuff, but you cannot only focus on negatives. It sounds like you have good friends, you can find a community that will accept you and accomodate for you, and why would you care what people in endgame groups do? Because most of your complaints (like not being able to bring a HA build in a trial) mostly apply to them.

I have had CMX installed for quite a while and my lightning staff HA builds took a significant hit in their DPS with the ha changes to storm masters and the destruction staff passive effect on AOE. Don't pretend it didn't because mathematically it did and in real world gameplay it did. Those changes were made at the request of other players so I'm still not sure how that differs from what I was suggesting. Either way, STOP. As soon as my ESO+ expires I'm done. I don't really care any more.

Of course this changes had effects mathematically. That's why they were made.

Storm master required a fully optimized group composition tho, which isn't exactly casual gameplay anymore. The time of lazily cheesing trifectas is thankfully over, the devaluation of meaningful difficulties stopped.

Casual players with unoptimized build weren't affected tho and still use oakensoul with good results in all content up to vet hm trials.

You really shouldn't pretend being casual if you truly aren't.

Installing CMX doesn't make you not a casual. Crunching numbers isn't not being casual either. Wanting more information is typically a good thing right? Wanting to improve your ability to play is a good thing too. I dunno maybe casual means different things to different people. I don't dummy hump because it does nothing for me. I'm not going to develop muscle memory because my body operates at inconsistent levels - some days my hands are totally numb and clumsy claws, some days they're not so bad. I installed CMX so I had a way to roughly compare what worked better for me than other things and mainly as a way to try and improve my abilities. I don't think that eliminates me as a casual player. I've never done a trifecta, don't really care about leaderboards (ok would LOVE to get on one for the self achievement but realistically never gonna happen), and the only thing I'm really interested trials for is access to sets I would like to try (same with PvP which is about all I'm there for when I've done it and to be fair it probably sucks for my teammates when I'm there.)

What's a casual by your definition?

This. CMX is just data that should be in the base game but isn't. It takes all of 30 seconds to download and simply gives you a way to compare sets outside of "how does this feel?"

nokturnihs

This is specifically related to the Arcanist portions of my original statements but frankly speaking losing 7% damage off the beam isn't that bad - the nerfed damage shield is what most bugged me about the changes considering you're pretty vulnerable while channeling, it's an ability pretty easy to disable and the big insta heals kinda suck on Arcanist.

It doesn't help that I don't remember DK ever getting a nerf without also getting a buff which makes it unique compared to every other class. To be fair i haven't always paid attention to patch notes and DK sucked at launch but it also just gets kinda old seeing that trend in the last several updates without that consistency in other classes. Yes i have DKs, i actually have too many characters (16?) - I'd just like to see all the classes receive the same amount of love.

silentxthreat

i am also disabled though in other ways. near blind and rely on sounds a lot but that doesnt really matter. you can still play the game to your play style. there is mythics in the game that make la not even needed. As faar as pvp balance goes this will never happen. has been requested since beta so dont count on it. There is no cp no proc but thats as good as it gets but no one plays there. From one disabled person to another find ways that work for you and remember to not always try and min/max to the point of no fun allowed.

Braffin

nokturnihs wrote: »

Braffin wrote: »

nokturnihs wrote: »

PrincessOfThieves wrote: »

I am not trying to "win" anything. I just don't understand this "all or nothing approach".
You can play and enjoy the game without having really high dps or doing trifectas and such. Most of us do. It's like that with any other game, thousands of people enjoy games like Counter-Strike even though they know they will never be on the level of esports CS players. I personally don't play most single-player games on higher difficulties, but I still enjoy them even though I am missing a few achievements.

Even at my best and using the same exact setup as the builds you depicted I haven't been able to achieve that DPS and none of my friends who tried the same thing were able to reach those numbers as well so while that's good for a few people, that's a garbage example like most of the "build videos" we've tried from multiple content creators. Either their numbers are off, they're just that much better or maybe a bit of both. Mind you I'm talking about HA 1B Sorc and a couple other 1b, 2b builds we got interested in. Usually (as an average) our best most try hard buddy could come close but usually at least 20k less than most of the content claiming 100k+ DPS builds. I took a break not too long after arcanist released but regardless - even using a meta build I seem to sit at max maybe 60k? My arcanist is probably my most playable character at the moment and she sits at 40-50k which seems to be where my DPS caps in most cases at least outside of when plaguebreak was causing crazy burst DPS before it got turned off for PvE.

The reason I posted this video was to prove that arcanist's dps ceiling didn't really change all that much. It wasn't a giant devastating nerf like those 30% nerfs of the past. It's very likely that your character won't feel that nerf at all. If you're on pc, you can download combat metrics and look at how much damage your beam does - I bet that 7% of that is not going to make or break your build.
Perhaps for you the 1 bar Oakensoul version of stamina arcanist build would work better?

Either way Princess another person pointed out that ZOS has intentions going forward or making for more IPS/APS intense combat as a Philosophy going forward. That's not going to work for me in the long term.

They just don't want people in the endgame to rely on "cheese" strategies. If you take a look at https://www.esologs.com/, you will see that most trial groups are full of arcanists because it's the easiest class with very high survivability. They just want to make it less of a clear favorite.
If they wanted more intense playstyles to be the most effective, nbs and necros would be on top, not arcanists.

Also just to reiterate, advocating for disabled people is different from advocating for all disabled people or trying to speak for all disabled people. It's hard to see your arguments as anything other than another an attempt to trivialize my position or points.

I am not trivializing your position and struggles. I am just saying that some of your arguments are based off of incorrect assumptions. This, in particular:
"So we lost HA builds, most one bar builds aren't viable for trials and the like anymore and arcanist (a disabled friendly class) is getting significant nerfs"
This is completely untrue. I do trials and usually there is one or more HA/1 bar player in every guild run.
That is my point - the crazy good performance requriements only apply to less than 1% of things you can do in this game. The rest can be done with moderate dps.There are discords that allow people with 50-60k dps in training trials. It is only a problem in hardmodes and such. Yes, you won't get speedruns and such but keep in mind that most able-bodied players don't do extremely optimized runs, either - some don't have time for that, some want to play casually etc. So you can still find a place among mid-game crowd and enjoy the game. You old guild sounds awesome, and I am sure there are others like this, you just got to look for them.

In regards to guilds. My guild was fine and it was great. I find trolling and trash talk being a normalized thing abhorrent because it's basically just hurting other people for your own enjoyment. That said each guild has it's own motivations and culture for sure. The problem wasn't my choice in who I played this game with regularly (AKA my friends) - the problem was from outside of those people. My people actually worked to build each other up solve problems together, help other overcome content they were struggling with and we build crafted, tested builds and did a lot of fun stuff together (we even did PvP although pretty much everyone was terrible at it and it kind of pissed off the cyrodiil crowd).

TLDR though - you won. I'm gonna be quitting the game eventually because that's where the game is going. It's not for me anymore, between my health decay, some seriously awful people and the vision ZOS has for combat going forward. If you'd read my last comment then you could've saved yourself the time and torn down someone new with fake outrage and targeted harassment if that was your intention? Whatever you do try to enjoy it and I hope it entertains you.

You're accusing me and others of toxicity, yet you're asking the devs to remove the playstyles other people enjoy. That is not constructive to begin with.
And yes it really does suck to have physical limitations. And none of us is getting younger and healthier. But the life still goes on and you can find enjoyment in it. I know that, I've been depressed and desperate for many years because of my health issues and other stuff, but you cannot only focus on negatives. It sounds like you have good friends, you can find a community that will accept you and accomodate for you, and why would you care what people in endgame groups do? Because most of your complaints (like not being able to bring a HA build in a trial) mostly apply to them.

I have had CMX installed for quite a while and my lightning staff HA builds took a significant hit in their DPS with the ha changes to storm masters and the destruction staff passive effect on AOE. Don't pretend it didn't because mathematically it did and in real world gameplay it did. Those changes were made at the request of other players so I'm still not sure how that differs from what I was suggesting. Either way, STOP. As soon as my ESO+ expires I'm done. I don't really care any more.

Of course this changes had effects mathematically. That's why they were made.

Storm master required a fully optimized group composition tho, which isn't exactly casual gameplay anymore. The time of lazily cheesing trifectas is thankfully over, the devaluation of meaningful difficulties stopped.

Casual players with unoptimized build weren't affected tho and still use oakensoul with good results in all content up to vet hm trials.

You really shouldn't pretend being casual if you truly aren't.

Installing CMX doesn't make you not a casual. Crunching numbers isn't not being casual either. Wanting more information is typically a good thing right? Wanting to improve your ability to play is a good thing too. I dunno maybe casual means different things to different people. I don't dummy hump because it does nothing for me. I'm not going to develop muscle memory because my body operates at inconsistent levels - some days my hands are totally numb and clumsy claws, some days they're not so bad. I installed CMX so I had a way to roughly compare what worked better for me than other things and mainly as a way to try and improve my abilities. I don't think that eliminates me as a casual player. I've never done a trifecta, don't really care about leaderboards (ok would LOVE to get on one for the self achievement but realistically never gonna happen), and the only thing I'm really interested trials for is access to sets I would like to try (same with PvP which is about all I'm there for when I've done it and to be fair it probably sucks for my teammates when I'm there.)

What's a casual by your definition?

The current iteration of lightning HA does up to 100k dps while giving you a tank's resistances, a good portion of health and the ability to use defensive skills (for the cost of a few dps). The resource management minigame during combat isn't longer of major importance as well.

All of the gear used by this build is easily aquireable outside veteran content and trials.

So, do you really want to tell me, you aren't capable of successfully completing trials in normal mode (for the sake of farming gear not needed for this build)?

If so, then it's definitely not due to the nerfs to storm master and changes to lightning passives, which were made to prevent further trifecta-runs with exactly that build. I assure you that much.