Why vote kicking people in dungeons doesn't get you permabanned?

RenTheCat · January 29

I don't get it.

Throwing mud at people is "harassment" and banneable.
Crouching repeatedly after killing someone in pvp is harassment and banneable.

But just feeling like kickng someone out of a dungeon, making them waste time, putting them in a punishment "time out" queue and outright single target them for harassment is not banneable?
There are people in the forum asking for players who kill npcs with blade of woe to be banned for "harassment". But I can't report and get banned people who just think it's funny to vote kick someone about to finish a dungeon so they don't get the daily XP?

I can guarantee you, someone will feel way worse and actually harassed when 3 players feel like kicking them out than the "I have 10 GB of evidence of players throwing mudballs at me!!" crowd.

AScarlato · January 29

I once ended up as the 4th odd-man-out of a 3-person premade that vote kicked people at the final boss for giggles. Luckily this only ever happened to me once in 4 years, but it was incredibly irritating and I never want to be put in with premades again.

thorwyn · January 29

Why vote kicking people in dungeons doesn't get you permabanned? Bookmark

Because it's an important tool.

Imagine this:

Player is queueing for a dungeon, then goes afk as soon as it pops. Would you like to run the dungeon for them?

CP 300 Player is queueing as a tank for a vet DLC dungeon although he is clearly a DD. Want to run the dungeon with them?

Player is verbally abusive/sexist/racist in chat. Want to run the dungeon with them?

Yes, people will kick you for no good reason from time to time. It happens, there are bad people everywhere. But asking for a ban because someone hurt your feelings? Come on.. grow up.

Araneae6537 · January 29

While ideally such malicious actions should not be allowable, I’m not sure how sure it could be fairly prevented. Some players who need to leave will ask to be kicked specifically so that they don’t have the cooldown to requeue or they may disconnect and not return and need to be kicked in order to invite a replacement. Or it may be the fourth player rather than a group of three that is trolling and deserves to be kicked.

adamsmith42 · January 29

Vote kicking and reforming the group is also the easiest way to reset the dungeon and requeue when doing trifectas. (if you just leave group everyone gets queue debuff)

LunaFlora · January 29

vote kicking fake tanks, fake healers, and people who speed through the dungeon without the group should be fine.

kicking them is definitely not a reason to get banned.

edit: removed repeated words
addition:

being kicked without good cause isn't nice.
and mudball harassment definitely doesn't feel nice either.

one isn't worse than the other, the way it feels isn't objective.

vsrs_au · January 29

A pity the OP had to trivialise the problems of mudballing and tea-bagging. You could have still made your point without even mentioning them.

RenTheCat · January 29

thorwyn wrote: »

Why vote kicking people in dungeons doesn't get you permabanned? Bookmark

Because it's an important tool.

Imagine this:

Player is queueing for a dungeon, then goes afk as soon as it pops. Would you like to run the dungeon for them?

CP 300 Player is queueing as a tank for a vet DLC dungeon although he is clearly a DD. Want to run the dungeon with them?

Player is verbally abusive/sexist/racist in chat. Want to run the dungeon with them?

Yes, people will kick you for no good reason from time to time. It happens, there are bad people everywhere. But asking for a ban because someone hurt your feelings? Come on.. grow up.

You could always get friends to do those "Vet dungeons" that need a good tank. You clearly take them seriously, and you have friends, right? There is however nothing preventing random strangers from ruining someone's dungeon trying to get the daily XP fast. You shouldn't have the tools to harrass and annoy people with actual gameplay blocking features. Your tank sucks? You leave and find a better one. You log in for a quick dungeon so you get the daily Xp and move on? You don't get to because 3 premades feel like trolling you and you can't do anything about it.

Aerenthir · January 29

When people are not able to pull their own weight in a dungeon/trial or whatever, why wouldn't it be alright for them to be kicked and replaced by someone that actually can?

Am I obliged to make my experience worse and carry them through the whole thing, just so they wouldn't get their feelings hurt?

Or as the person above said, what if they are verbally abusive/sexist/racist etc. Am I forced to tolerate them?

Yes, we can find friends to do those "vet dungeons" etc. so we wouldn't hit that issue, but the same thing can be said to you as well. Find some friends to quickly do the dungeons for daily XP, so they wouldn't vote kick you and move on buddy?

Vote kicking is absolutely needed feature in this game and in general in all games.

This snowflake mindset where everything can be offensive and people need to tip toe around others needs to be uprooted. People's triggers are their own and no one really owns a stranger nothing.

P.S Kicking people for fun is a total lame move though.

Braffin · January 29

RenTheCat wrote: »

But just feeling like kickng someone out of a dungeon is not banneable?

Why should it be bannable?

If 3 players decide, that the fourth player isn't fitting into their group, they have every right to kick them.

Never forget: By buying the game you got access to the content, but not other players. You can't force anybody to play with you.

Lags · January 29

i have to say, i think complaining about people mudballing and complaining about getting tbagged are both pretty lame. More like extremely lame, and sad. This is not terribly far behind. Just run another, i really doubt its happeing a lot, and if it is there must be a reason why.

Syldras · January 29

vsrs_au wrote: »

A pity the OP had to trivialise the problems of mudballing and tea-bagging. You could have still made your point without even mentioning them.

Not only this, he is explicitly mocking the OP of this thread:
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/650939/trolls-in-evermore-part-2/p1

ArchangelIsraphel · January 29

Minimizing the distress of others to elevate your own argument isn't a great way to garner sympathy for your cause. You don't get to decide whether the feelings of others are lesser than your own when it comes to harassment.

SeaGtGruff · January 29

thorwyn wrote: »

Why vote kicking people in dungeons doesn't get you permabanned? Bookmark

Because it's an important tool.

Yes, but it's being abused in a deliberately offensive manner in the scenario described. It's difficult to prove, which makes it very unlikely that someone would be banned for it unless there was evidence that it was done as deliberate harrassment. But just because it's difficult to prove doesn't make it okay. And telling people to "grow up" isn't helpful, and just helps to shift the blame onto the victim instead of being on the abusers.

virtus753 · January 29

adamsmith42 wrote: »

Vote kicking and reforming the group is also the easiest way to reset the dungeon and requeue when doing trifectas. (if you just leave group everyone gets queue debuff)

Out of curiosity, why you would want to use the dungeon finder to get into a dungeon with a group you're doing trifectas with? I'm assuming you're a premade of four and are at Level 50 CP 160, at which point there is no bonus for queueing. Using the group finder in that situation seems to be an extra step that only costs time and invites technical issues.

Soarora · January 30

virtus753 wrote: »

adamsmith42 wrote: »

Vote kicking and reforming the group is also the easiest way to reset the dungeon and requeue when doing trifectas. (if you just leave group everyone gets queue debuff)

Out of curiosity, why you would want to use the dungeon finder to get into a dungeon with a group you're doing trifectas with? I'm assuming you're a premade of four and are at Level 50 CP 160, at which point there is no bonus for queueing. Using the group finder in that situation seems to be an extra step that only costs time and invites technical issues.

Yeah I don’t do it that way either, just PTE and set as normal then vet and port back in.

Hapexamendios · January 30

I feel if you're going to kick me for no reason, you're someone I don't want to play with in the first place. Good riddance.

Vulkunne · January 30

RenTheCat wrote: »

I don't get it.

Throwing mud at people is "harassment" and banneable.
Crouching repeatedly after killing someone in pvp is harassment and banneable.

But just feeling like kickng someone out of a dungeon, making them waste time, putting them in a punishment "time out" queue and outright single target them for harassment is not banneable?
There are people in the forum asking for players who kill npcs with blade of woe to be banned for "harassment". But I can't report and get banned people who just think it's funny to vote kick someone about to finish a dungeon so they don't get the daily XP?

I can guarantee you, someone will feel way worse and actually harassed when 3 players feel like kicking them out than the "I have 10 GB of evidence of players throwing mudballs at me!!" crowd.

Let me kind of step in here and maybe help out a bit.

First, everyone can't always get what they want. This is a fact of life and a fact of this game so I would allow for that.

Secondly, yes I completely agree there are some hateful folks in this game, I run into that sort now and then, but you can't really change them. So what to do about this? I would take a breather, go have a smoke or a drink, hug your cat, or dog, or whatever, take a walk and then come back to the kitchen table and do some brain storming. The reason they are probably kicking you at the end of the run, well, its just mean-spirited so no reason would be good but they may just feel they don't need you. I'm not them so I wouldn't know, would never think of doing something like that but it doesn't surprise me that some people do. Anyways, generally speaking I tank dungeons and have for many years. My builds, at least in PvE, are not perfect but flawless. With that said, when I'm running there's a general consensus that they need me more than I need them.

And so, my suggestion for those of you out there with similar issues, go back and look at your builds. Make sure that everything is in order and there is no reason for them to even think about kicking you. Also, try not to die like... all the time. I mean, it happens, it happens to me sometimes but make it happen alot less. Again, I'm not taking up for these cruel people but sometimes a hard target will pull thru whereas someone else expecting things to be fair will lose for not being stronger. It shouldn't need to be that way, this I agree with you on again. But it is what it is and probably will be as long as MMOs continue to exist. We cannot make the game straight but we can make sure we're in the right before any question is asked.

Tyrant_Tim · January 30

Deliberately grieving your 4th should absolutely be a bannable offense.

Bit of context, I was just in a random normal dungeon last night where I queued as a healer because I had Extended Ritual and a few other off-heals on my PvP build.

There isn’t a single normal dungeon in the game where Extended Ritual and Repentance isn’t enough to keep your group alive, and even though I did more combined damage than my entire group WHILE preventing everyone from dying, I got kicked at the last boss before I got my transmutes for “fake queuing” even though I provided the role I queued for.

There is no other word to describe situations like those other than “Grieving” and that needs to be sanctionable, it’s not enough to blacklist these people because they just keep ruining the experience for others.

NeuroticPixels · January 30

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

Deliberately grieving your 4th should absolutely be a bannable offense.

Absolutely. Agreed. Problem is, there’s no way (currently) that the game automatically moderates vote kicking. I’m not even sure what that would look like. As someone that doesn’t abuse the necessary feature of kicking, I’d hate to be put on some long cooldown or something similar after kicking a troll… just because the trolls abused the feature and used it to grief, so everyone has to deal with the consequences.

It’s a shame that a large majority of issues can be worked-around (notice I didn’t say “solved”) with only participating in group activities with friends.
But how do you make friends on an MMO? By playing with strangers. Sigh. 😞

ZOS_Hadeostry · January 30

Greetings,

After further review we have decided to move this thread to a category we think is more appropriate for this topic, as it's dungeon related.

Thank you for your understanding

Vulkunne · January 30

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

Deliberately grieving your 4th should absolutely be a bannable offense.

Bit of context, I was just in a random normal dungeon last night where I queued as a healer because I had Extended Ritual and a few other off-heals on my PvP build.

There isn’t a single normal dungeon in the game where Extended Ritual and Repentance isn’t enough to keep your group alive, and even though I did more combined damage than my entire group WHILE preventing everyone from dying, I got kicked at the last boss before I got my transmutes for “fake queuing” even though I provided the role I queued for.

There is no other word to describe situations like those other than “Grieving” and that needs to be sanctionable, it’s not enough to blacklist these people because they just keep ruining the experience for others.

If you're on the last boss there should be no reason to kick so yeah. ZOS should look into preventing this.

RenTheCat · January 30

Braffin wrote: »

RenTheCat wrote: »

But just feeling like kickng someone out of a dungeon is not banneable?

Why should it be bannable?

If 3 players decide, that the fourth player isn't fitting into their group, they have every right to kick them.

Never forget: By buying the game you got access to the content, but not other players. You can't force anybody to play with you.

Yet people in this forum think they are entitled to ban others for throwing mudballs. Hey, if 3 players feel like throwing mudballs to you they are in their rights, they bought they game! You can't force anybody to not use mementos.

You don't get to gang up on someone, remove them out of a dungeon they spent time and effort on, prevent them of getting the daily reward and putting a block on their queue because it counts as you "leaving" it.
You genuinely think 3 people ganging up on someone is "within their rights"? DO you apply this to other places too? Do you apply this logic in real life too? Because that's concerning.

RenTheCat · January 30

Vulkunne wrote: »

RenTheCat wrote: »

I don't get it.

Throwing mud at people is "harassment" and banneable.
Crouching repeatedly after killing someone in pvp is harassment and banneable.

But just feeling like kickng someone out of a dungeon, making them waste time, putting them in a punishment "time out" queue and outright single target them for harassment is not banneable?
There are people in the forum asking for players who kill npcs with blade of woe to be banned for "harassment". But I can't report and get banned people who just think it's funny to vote kick someone about to finish a dungeon so they don't get the daily XP?

I can guarantee you, someone will feel way worse and actually harassed when 3 players feel like kicking them out than the "I have 10 GB of evidence of players throwing mudballs at me!!" crowd.

Let me kind of step in here and maybe help out a bit.

First, everyone can't always get what they want. This is a fact of life and a fact of this game so I would allow for that.

Secondly, yes I completely agree there are some hateful folks in this game, I run into that sort now and then, but you can't really change them. So what to do about this? I would take a breather, go have a smoke or a drink, hug your cat, or dog, or whatever, take a walk and then come back to the kitchen table and do some brain storming. The reason they are probably kicking you at the end of the run, well, its just mean-spirited so no reason would be good but they may just feel they don't need you. I'm not them so I wouldn't know, would never think of doing something like that but it doesn't surprise me that some people do. Anyways, generally speaking I tank dungeons and have for many years. My builds, at least in PvE, are not perfect but flawless. With that said, when I'm running there's a general consensus that they need me more than I need them.

And so, my suggestion for those of you out there with similar issues, go back and look at your builds. Make sure that everything is in order and there is no reason for them to even think about kicking you. Also, try not to die like... all the time. I mean, it happens, it happens to me sometimes but make it happen alot less. Again, I'm not taking up for these cruel people but sometimes a hard target will pull thru whereas someone else expecting things to be fair will lose for not being stronger. It shouldn't need to be that way, this I agree with you on again. But it is what it is and probably will be as long as MMOs continue to exist. We cannot make the game straight but we can make sure we're in the right before any question is asked.

Victim blaming, nice.

Braffin · January 30

RenTheCat wrote: »

Braffin wrote: »

RenTheCat wrote: »

But just feeling like kickng someone out of a dungeon is not banneable?

Why should it be bannable?

If 3 players decide, that the fourth player isn't fitting into their group, they have every right to kick them.

Never forget: By buying the game you got access to the content, but not other players. You can't force anybody to play with you.

Yet people in this forum think they are entitled to ban others for throwing mudballs. Hey, if 3 players feel like throwing mudballs to you they are in their rights, they bought they game! You can't force anybody to not use mementos.

You don't get to gang up on someone, remove them out of a dungeon they spent time and effort on, prevent them of getting the daily reward and putting a block on their queue because it counts as you "leaving" it.
You genuinely think 3 people ganging up on someone is "within their rights"? DO you apply this to other places too? Do you apply this logic in real life too? Because that's concerning.

You really don't get the difference, do you?

If 3 people are "ganging up" to harass another player by using mementos, it's very clear that their intention is nothing more but disrupting said player's gaming experience. This is explicitely forbidden.

If 3 people decide, that they don't want to continue playing with you, there are several reasons thinkable for that. You aren't necessarily the victim.

Don't you see the difference between "ganging up" to execute an unwanted action and "ganging up" to prevent further interaction? The latter isn't offensive but rather normal, and yes, I also apply the logic in real life, that I, as an individual, decide what people I'm dealing with and what people I keep away from my private life.

Muizer · January 30

RenTheCat wrote: »

I don't get it.

Throwing mud at people is "harassment" and banneable.
Crouching repeatedly after killing someone in pvp is harassment and banneable.

But just feeling like kickng someone out of a dungeon, making them waste time, putting them in a punishment "time out" queue and outright single target them for harassment is not banneable?
There are people in the forum asking for players who kill npcs with blade of woe to be banned for "harassment". But I can't report and get banned people who just think it's funny to vote kick someone about to finish a dungeon so they don't get the daily XP?

I can guarantee you, someone will feel way worse and actually harassed when 3 players feel like kicking them out than the "I have 10 GB of evidence of players throwing mudballs at me!!" crowd.

Firstly, everybody's right that it's not a very good idea to tie your opinion on malicious vote kicking to other types of harassment. You're only making it harder to get support anyway.

Secondly, I actually think you could report people for malicious vote kicking. But it's the same as with other forms of harassment: you need to get evidence that a legit functionality of the game (i.e. not a hack) is used in a way to harass you.

ApoAlaia · January 30

AScarlato wrote: »

I once ended up as the 4th odd-man-out of a 3-person premade that vote kicked people at the final boss for giggles. Luckily this only ever happened to me once in 4 years, but it was incredibly irritating and I never want to be put in with premades again.

Been on the receiving end of that behaviour too however I PUG quite a bit, I want to say at least a couple of times a day on one account or another, and my personal experience matches yours: is exceedingly rare.

In fact the overwhelming majority of PUGs are... well, unremarkable.

Don't get me wrong, there have been a few times where I have fallen into the 'something should be done about this' mindset when something remarkable happened that frustrated me however on second thought I always reached the conclusion that it just wasn't severe enough or prevalent enough to warrant any further action.

MidniteOwl1913 · January 30

So in tonight dungeon we saw the reason for vote to kick unfortunately for us we didn't. Random pug the "healer" loads in, I never saw them ahead of us the whole time, finishes the boss before we get making sure we get no loot and leaves.

This is why there is a vote to kick!!!

Fake healer bad, speed running dragging the dps killing trash mob worse, but making sure that the other 3 get nothing that takes a whole different level of jerk...

Vulkunne · January 30

RenTheCat wrote: »

Vulkunne wrote: »

RenTheCat wrote: »

I don't get it.

Throwing mud at people is "harassment" and banneable.
Crouching repeatedly after killing someone in pvp is harassment and banneable.

But just feeling like kickng someone out of a dungeon, making them waste time, putting them in a punishment "time out" queue and outright single target them for harassment is not banneable?
There are people in the forum asking for players who kill npcs with blade of woe to be banned for "harassment". But I can't report and get banned people who just think it's funny to vote kick someone about to finish a dungeon so they don't get the daily XP?

I can guarantee you, someone will feel way worse and actually harassed when 3 players feel like kicking them out than the "I have 10 GB of evidence of players throwing mudballs at me!!" crowd.

Let me kind of step in here and maybe help out a bit.

First, everyone can't always get what they want. This is a fact of life and a fact of this game so I would allow for that.

Secondly, yes I completely agree there are some hateful folks in this game, I run into that sort now and then, but you can't really change them. So what to do about this? I would take a breather, go have a smoke or a drink, hug your cat, or dog, or whatever, take a walk and then come back to the kitchen table and do some brain storming. The reason they are probably kicking you at the end of the run, well, its just mean-spirited so no reason would be good but they may just feel they don't need you. I'm not them so I wouldn't know, would never think of doing something like that but it doesn't surprise me that some people do. Anyways, generally speaking I tank dungeons and have for many years. My builds, at least in PvE, are not perfect but flawless. With that said, when I'm running there's a general consensus that they need me more than I need them.

And so, my suggestion for those of you out there with similar issues, go back and look at your builds. Make sure that everything is in order and there is no reason for them to even think about kicking you. Also, try not to die like... all the time. I mean, it happens, it happens to me sometimes but make it happen alot less. Again, I'm not taking up for these cruel people but sometimes a hard target will pull thru whereas someone else expecting things to be fair will lose for not being stronger. It shouldn't need to be that way, this I agree with you on again. But it is what it is and probably will be as long as MMOs continue to exist. We cannot make the game straight but we can make sure we're in the right before any question is asked.

Victim blaming, nice.

A little bit yes. Learn from this, examine your builds and how you carry out your role first before trying to blame anyone else for problems that may or may not exist on your end.

Amottica · January 30

Voting to kick someone out requires a majority vote.

The only time I have been part of initiating or voting to remove someone was due to their behavior. Mostly because they were being a jerk in one manner or another.

In other words, we banned them from the group for harassment. It would be nice if adding them to the ignore list would permaban them from the GF adding them to our group. Unfortunately it doesn’t work that way.

El_Borracho · January 30

"Keep speedrunners, fake tanks, fake healers, fake DPS, etc. out of group dungeons!"

"Voting to kick people out of group dungeons should get you banned!"

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