Sorcerer Changes - Good(ish) but More is Needed

Galeriano

MashmalloMan wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

GusTheWizard wrote: »

Udrath wrote: »

The new conjured shield is going be really overpowered. You won’t even need to slot a heal.

Highly doubt it, even with a 60k max magicka pool you’ll still only get a 9k heal which will be halved in pvp.

With 60k magicka You will be getting around 16k shield and 10k heal tooltip in PvP even more near the keeps and resources. Even after halving that heal value it will be still strong because it's covered by a 16k shield. 5k heal covered by a 16k shield is worth more than 16k heal covered by nothing and keep in mind that heals with 16k tooltip are also halved in PvP.

Shields are halved too. That's a 8k shield, with a 4.5k heal after battlespirit. That 60k mag player also had to use underperforming sets like Crafty Alfiq to achieve it.

Most burst heals from other classes scale much higher than a 9k tooltip and don't have to sacrifice all their set bonuses. Weapon/Spell damage is king right now, a mag stacking Sorc has very little of it. Most builds you watch now have 20-24k of their main resource because it doesn't scale well with proc sets or damage in general to begin with.

Idk, I have no leg in this race. I don't play mag Sorc for pvp, but are we all forgetting that CP use to give +20% mag/stam/hp only a few years ago? Let's be real. Max mag stacking Sorcs are very 2019.

Also. It's not like this was a free trade. No pets and no more HP passive. You're gonna have to make up that HP elsewhere. Shields are still capped by HP.

No that 16k shield is a PvP value. Outside PvP it's like 21k shield. Keep in mind that sorc shields are not excatly halved in PvP when comparing to their PvE values since they operate on cap rules so when You have 21k shield in PvE it doesn't mean it will be 10-11k in PvP because that 21k is a value alrealy hold back by a cap meaning it would be higher if cap wouldn't exist so when You enter into PvP a shield value that is being halved is actually a non caped value. Basically in PvE when You have around 29-30k HP You will have a 21k shield wheter You have 50k or 60k magicka but when You enter into PvP You will notice a different shield values based on which max magicka value You have.

And just a side noter with new mines while having that 16k shield from hardened ward You will be also able to thrown 5 shields on the ground each with 11k tooltip in PvP and You will be able to activate one one of them once every 2 seconds by walking onto them. That is up to 55k of overall shield vale from 1 ability cast and up to 27k shield applied to Your healthbar from combination of hardened ward and mines shield. All of that while healing under these shields for 5k+ with Your main shield.

MashmalloMan

Galeriano wrote: »

MashmalloMan wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

GusTheWizard wrote: »

Udrath wrote: »

The new conjured shield is going be really overpowered. You won’t even need to slot a heal.

Highly doubt it, even with a 60k max magicka pool you’ll still only get a 9k heal which will be halved in pvp.

With 60k magicka You will be getting around 16k shield and 10k heal tooltip in PvP even more near the keeps and resources. Even after halving that heal value it will be still strong because it's covered by a 16k shield. 5k heal covered by a 16k shield is worth more than 16k heal covered by nothing and keep in mind that heals with 16k tooltip are also halved in PvP.

Shields are halved too. That's a 8k shield, with a 4.5k heal after battlespirit. That 60k mag player also had to use underperforming sets like Crafty Alfiq to achieve it.

Most burst heals from other classes scale much higher than a 9k tooltip and don't have to sacrifice all their set bonuses. Weapon/Spell damage is king right now, a mag stacking Sorc has very little of it. Most builds you watch now have 20-24k of their main resource because it doesn't scale well with proc sets or damage in general to begin with.

Idk, I have no leg in this race. I don't play mag Sorc for pvp, but are we all forgetting that CP use to give +20% mag/stam/hp only a few years ago? Let's be real. Max mag stacking Sorcs are very 2019.

Also. It's not like this was a free trade. No pets and no more HP passive. You're gonna have to make up that HP elsewhere. Shields are still capped by HP.

No that is 16k shield is a PvP value. Outside PvP it's like 21k shield. Keep in mind that sorc shields are not excatly halved in PvP when comparing to their PvE values since they operate on cap rules so when You have 21k shield in PvE it doesn't mean it will be 10-11k in PvP because that 21k is a value alrealy hold back by a cap meaning it would be higher if cap wouldn't exist so when You enter into PvP a shield value that is being halved is actually a non caped value. Basically in PvE when You have around 29-30k HP You will have a 21k shield wheter You have 50k or 60k magicka but when You enter into PvP You will notice a different shield values based on depends which max magicka value You have.

Fair enough, I was basing it off the context of your comment. Either way, very small heal for giving up everything else important to achieve this 60k+. It's better to have a well rounded build and just treat the heal as a buffer instead of some pseudo burst heal other classes have.

RaptorRodeoGod

I like how they made Nightblades heal passive and active on both bars, but didn't touch Crit Surge 🙃

katorga

RaptorRodeoGod wrote: »

I like how they made Nightblades heal passive and active on both bars, but didn't touch Crit Surge 🙃

Procs on any damage so 1800 hps while surge needs crit so, say 50% crit rate, say 1650 hps to 3300 hps if RNG favors you. You don't have to waste a GCD ever 33 seconds.

Leeching is better than Crit surge.

The Shield changes are just trying to level the playing field with Arcanist shields. Fair enough. Arcanist have shield heals, burst shield sizes for 1s, and tidal chakram shields are easier to buff your team with than mines shield. Overall sorcerer shields are worse than Arcanist, imo.

React

You should get on the PTS and test these changes before talking about how it needs more. Magsorc is shaping up to be one of the strongest classes in the game (pvp wise) with these changes.

Duke_Falcon

The resource return for Dark Deal/Conversion is very strong if you don't also need a heal with it. If you need the heal your in trouble because of how easily its canceled. I'd propose taking the cast time off the skill and making the mag/stam resource return be over time instead of a burst to your stam/mag while keeping the burst heal.

Dark Deal / Conversions cast time can cause the skill to be canceled with a block, dodge roll, hitting sprint, bar swapping, a bash or an interrupt skill. I you do any of those base game mechanics, you cancel the skill out, so its not really a viable burst heal when you need it most. Imagine any other class that loses its burst heal when you do any of those actions. People on forums playing those classes would go crazy.

All classes can block cast a burst heal, or dodge roll all incoming damage while using a hot or burst heal, but not a Non Pet Mag Sorc. They get no burst heals in an emergency at all, so basically they can use their burst heal when their HP is fine and they don't actually need one. lol

Udrath

MashmalloMan wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

GusTheWizard wrote: »

Udrath wrote: »

The new conjured shield is going be really overpowered. You won’t even need to slot a heal.

Highly doubt it, even with a 60k max magicka pool you’ll still only get a 9k heal which will be halved in pvp.

With 60k magicka You will be getting around 16k shield and 10k heal tooltip in PvP even more near the keeps and resources. Even after halving that heal value it will be still strong because it's covered by a 16k shield. 5k heal covered by a 16k shield is worth more than 16k heal covered by nothing and keep in mind that heals with 16k tooltip are also halved in PvP.

Shields are halved too. That's a 8k shield, with a 4.5k heal after battlespirit. That 60k mag player also had to use underperforming sets like Crafty Alfiq to achieve it, so they have low sustain, low pen, low armor, low crit.. all of those are key to pvp right now.

Most burst heals from other classes scale much higher than a 9k tooltip and don't have to sacrifice all their set bonuses. Weapon/Spell damage is king right now, a mag stacking Sorc has very little of it. Most builds you watch now have 20-24k of their main resource because it doesn't scale well with proc sets or damage in general to begin with.

Idk, I have no leg in this race. I don't play mag Sorc for pvp, but are we all forgetting that CP use to give +20% mag/stam/hp only a few years ago? Let's be real. Max mag stacking Sorcs are very 2019.

Also. It's not like this was a free trade. No pets and no more HP passive. You're gonna have to make up that HP elsewhere. Shields are still capped by HP.

MashmalloMan wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

GusTheWizard wrote: »

Udrath wrote: »

The new conjured shield is going be really overpowered. You won’t even need to slot a heal.

Highly doubt it, even with a 60k max magicka pool you’ll still only get a 9k heal which will be halved in pvp.

With 60k magicka You will be getting around 16k shield and 10k heal tooltip in PvP even more near the keeps and resources. Even after halving that heal value it will be still strong because it's covered by a 16k shield. 5k heal covered by a 16k shield is worth more than 16k heal covered by nothing and keep in mind that heals with 16k tooltip are also halved in PvP.

Shields are halved too. That's a 8k shield, with a 4.5k heal after battlespirit.

That 16k shield and 10k heal “in PVP” is already halved by battle spirit. That is the tooltip if you make the max magicka build on the PTS and go into the CP enabled zones. And that build can have 28k resistance on the back bar and 1800 mag recovery wearing 5 light. With 5 light and sharpened staff that gives over 10k penetration without major breach and good critical chance from the passives.

Turtle_Bot

The ward changes are good, definitely a step in the right direction.

I need to test the healing potential of encase morph, I can see it being very good, but also mid. Needs testing.

The mines changes are interesting for sure, needs testing and thinking about.

Lightning splash was a swing and a miss. too much of its damage is tied to the synergy, it needs that changed and its damage over time buffed before it will be considered over better global options.

Expert summoner missed the mark unless I am missing something with it. It sounds good in theory, but when you look at it deeper, it just doesn't synergize with how sorc is played. in PvP sorc wants more health for bigger wards, but it cannot fit the pets, while in PvE it wants the max stats for damage, but the pets are the best damage (for PvE) the class has, so it loses the bonus stats by using its best DPS tools.

Overall the changes look fine, but there's still the most important issue, bar space. Until this is addressed, the class will always have overarching issues, especially when the inevitable nerf hammer comes down on the new abilities because the flashy new skills ZOS tried out were made too strong to try and make up for this issue.

Turtle_Bot

React wrote: »

You should get on the PTS and test these changes before talking about how it needs more. Magsorc is shaping up to be one of the strongest classes in the game (pvp wise) with these changes.

Heard that exact same statement every single patch last year, the only sorcerer build that rose in the tiers to be anywhere remotely near the top was proc sorc, which really doesn't count considering that really is more of a classless (weapon) class that happens to have streak and crit surge.

Tannus15

overall i'm happy with all the changes.
none of them are bad, all of them are welcome.

however.
the thing that scares me most is zos going "ok, job done" when sorc, mag sorc in particular, is so far behind all other classes in pve.

cleave matters and the sorc has terrible cleave.
if you try and use the skills sorc has to try and bring up your cleave, then your single target drops dramatically. apparantly we can't have both.

furthermore our single target isn't exceptional. it's good, but it's not like 10% higher than everyone else to compensate for our lack of cleave or buffs.
it's just as good as everyone else.

leaving me with the question, why bring a sorc? you can get similar damage with other classes while also getting cleave, so why bring a "specialist" that just isn't special?

Grim_Overlord

Thinking about a potential Sorcerer healing kit, now that the class has a group burst heal, what purpose does Twilight Matriarch have? Clannfear heal is bigger if you need a selfish heal and want a pet, and Matriarch, while giving some utility on a DPS is wholly outshined by Twilight Tormentor even though its recast ability is nigh worthless.

What I'm trying to say here is that these changes to Sorcerer give it some great support potential, but also make both morphs of the Twilight seem lackluster overall. This is a good thing, but it also means that the Twilight would benefit from an overhaul as well.

Jsmalls

So Max Magicka Sorc has always been my setup, for like 5 years+ now. I prefer to play in No-CP because I think it's more balanced.

I dueled for 2+ hours in a No-CP, No Proc setup and these are my opinions.

Setup has ~63k magicka with the new changes, I had to move some health around to compensate for the loss from the passive but I don't run a high health pool ~26-27k usually, think I was 25.5k for this setup after changes.

It's VERY strong in a No-CP, no proc environment. I was able to negate full execute damage if I found myself falling to <5k health. Something I previously struggled with is now a non-issue.

The extra 10% magicka is a large damage buff. We're talking ~5k magicka increase. 7% inner light, 8% bound aegis, 6% undaunted, 10% summoner expert for a total of 31% Max magicka. This was an odd direction considering a few years ago they were trying to get away from % increases to move to flat bonuses.

That being said 5k magicka is a significant damage buff and equivalent to most 5 piece set bonuses. My spammable tool-tipped for ~13k believe that's up 1500 pre patch. Additionally for those that want numbers in Cyrodiil this gave me a 5000-5500 heal, ~8300 crit heal with a 16k ward (bastion active).

I need to try this in a Proc Cyrodiil setting still though because these changes might have given hardened ward (an underperforming defense mechanic) some life. Also don't forget that defile now works on shields, so even though ultimately with the heal and shield strength it's still stronger it can be debuffed now.

acastanza_ESO

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

The ward changes are good, definitely a step in the right direction.

I need to test the healing potential of encase morph, I can see it being very good, but also mid. Needs testing.

The mines changes are interesting for sure, needs testing and thinking about.

Lightning splash was a swing and a miss. too much of its damage is tied to the synergy, it needs that changed and its damage over time buffed before it will be considered over better global options.

Expert summoner missed the mark unless I am missing something with it. It sounds good in theory, but when you look at it deeper, it just doesn't synergize with how sorc is played. in PvP sorc wants more health for bigger wards, but it cannot fit the pets, while in PvE it wants the max stats for damage, but the pets are the best damage (for PvE) the class has, so it loses the bonus stats by using its best DPS tools.

Overall the changes look fine, but there's still the most important issue, bar space. Until this is addressed, the class will always have overarching issues, especially when the inevitable nerf hammer comes down on the new abilities because the flashy new skills ZOS tried out were made too strong to try and make up for this issue.

Yeah if these are the only sorc changes we're going to get (which I hope not) we really need to rally around them swapping the Max Health and Max Mag/Stam buffs so that you get max resource when pets/hardened ward is active (e.g. when you're on the offensive) and Max Health when you have no pets/no ward (e.g. on the defensive, or need it more to contribute to Blood Magic more)

MashmalloMan

Grim_Overlord wrote: »

Thinking about a potential Sorcerer healing kit, now that the class has a group burst heal, what purpose does Twilight Matriarch have? Clannfear heal is bigger if you need a selfish heal and want a pet, and Matriarch, while giving some utility on a DPS is wholly outshined by Twilight Tormentor even though its recast ability is nigh worthless.

What I'm trying to say here is that these changes to Sorcerer give it some great support potential, but also make both morphs of the Twilight seem lackluster overall. This is a good thing, but it also means that the Twilight would benefit from an overhaul as well.

• Twilight scales about 30% higher with a much longer range which encompasses your field of view.
• Encase is medium range as a slim rectangle in front of the caster, but gives minor vitality and major maim.
• Clanfear scales based on % of your max health while Twilight/Encase scales on damage/max resource, odds are Twlight and Encase will heal much higher for the average damage dealer.

They're really all within different lanes imo, providing much needed options which was the entire point of the new morphs. Could pets be improved? 100%, everyone hates double barring them, the ai, Tormentor has a terrible cast effect, Clanfear sucks for tanks because you can kill the most important thing to keep you alive, Matriarch sucks as a healer losing your main heal could be the end of the people you're trying to keep alive.

MashmalloMan

acastanza_ESO wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

The ward changes are good, definitely a step in the right direction.

I need to test the healing potential of encase morph, I can see it being very good, but also mid. Needs testing.

The mines changes are interesting for sure, needs testing and thinking about.

Lightning splash was a swing and a miss. too much of its damage is tied to the synergy, it needs that changed and its damage over time buffed before it will be considered over better global options.

Expert summoner missed the mark unless I am missing something with it. It sounds good in theory, but when you look at it deeper, it just doesn't synergize with how sorc is played. in PvP sorc wants more health for bigger wards, but it cannot fit the pets, while in PvE it wants the max stats for damage, but the pets are the best damage (for PvE) the class has, so it loses the bonus stats by using its best DPS tools.

Overall the changes look fine, but there's still the most important issue, bar space. Until this is addressed, the class will always have overarching issues, especially when the inevitable nerf hammer comes down on the new abilities because the flashy new skills ZOS tried out were made too strong to try and make up for this issue.

Yeah if these are the only sorc changes we're going to get (which I hope not) we really need to rally around them swapping the Max Health and Max Mag/Stam buffs so that you get max resource when pets/hardened ward is active (e.g. when you're on the offensive) and Max Health when you have no pets/no ward (e.g. on the defensive, or need it more to contribute to Blood Magic more)

I don't want that, I don't support that idea.

What does a pve no pet sorc need with 10% hp? Nothing. The issue @Turtle_Bot brought up is that a pve sorc does not currently want to drop their pets because they deal too much of our DPS. So how would the solution be to give pet sorcs the 10% mag/stam when they're not the ones that need it? That defeats the entire purpose of adding this new passive in the first place. The solution is to start updating no pet sorc skills like Lightning Flood, Haunting Curse, Bound Armaments, and Mages Fury that would be the first skills you go to when you start removing pets. While they're at it, reverse the Daedric Prey buff from 20% to 45% which is severely overtuned and meant as a bandaid because our DPS tanked with U35.

For pvp, this is net gain for most players seeing as having a multiplier for your main and off resource is beneficial. If you lack HP, you can simply invest less stam or mag to pump up your hp to a suitable level. You're more likely to find a mag sorc with higher max magicka than a mag sorc with higher max hp, so while those builds exist, why would we have to flip the passives specifically for 1 niche. For stam sorc which doesn't typically stack high stamina, yes, it's a bit of a loss, but marginal all things considered.

Turtle_Bot

MashmalloMan wrote: »

acastanza_ESO wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

The ward changes are good, definitely a step in the right direction.

I need to test the healing potential of encase morph, I can see it being very good, but also mid. Needs testing.

The mines changes are interesting for sure, needs testing and thinking about.

Lightning splash was a swing and a miss. too much of its damage is tied to the synergy, it needs that changed and its damage over time buffed before it will be considered over better global options.

Expert summoner missed the mark unless I am missing something with it. It sounds good in theory, but when you look at it deeper, it just doesn't synergize with how sorc is played. in PvP sorc wants more health for bigger wards, but it cannot fit the pets, while in PvE it wants the max stats for damage, but the pets are the best damage (for PvE) the class has, so it loses the bonus stats by using its best DPS tools.

Overall the changes look fine, but there's still the most important issue, bar space. Until this is addressed, the class will always have overarching issues, especially when the inevitable nerf hammer comes down on the new abilities because the flashy new skills ZOS tried out were made too strong to try and make up for this issue.

Yeah if these are the only sorc changes we're going to get (which I hope not) we really need to rally around them swapping the Max Health and Max Mag/Stam buffs so that you get max resource when pets/hardened ward is active (e.g. when you're on the offensive) and Max Health when you have no pets/no ward (e.g. on the defensive, or need it more to contribute to Blood Magic more)

I don't want that, I don't support that idea.

What does a pve no pet sorc need with 10% hp? Nothing. The issue @Turtle_Bot brought up is that a pve sorc does not currently want to drop their pets because they deal too much of our DPS. So how would the solution be to give pet sorcs the 10% mag/stam when they're not the ones that need it? That defeats the entire purpose of adding this new passive in the first place. The solution is to start updating no pet sorc skills like Lightning Flood, Haunting Curse, Bound Armaments, and Mages Fury that would be the first skills you go to when you start removing pets. While they're at it, reverse the Daedric Prey buff from 20% to 45% which is severely overtuned and meant as a bandaid because our DPS tanked with U35.

For pvp, this is net gain for most players seeing as having a multiplier for your main and off resource is beneficial. If you lack HP, you can simply invest less stam or mag to pump up your hp to a suitable level. You're more likely to find a mag sorc with higher max magicka than a mag sorc with higher max hp, so while those builds exist, why would we have to flip the passives specifically for 1 niche. For stam sorc which doesn't typically stack high stamina, yes, it's a bit of a loss, but marginal all things considered.

Honestly, if ZOS are that determined to keep this change for expert summoner, it should have kept the Health buff as it currently is (essentially up all the time), then if you have no pets active, you also get the bonus magicka and stamina. This way it has the same baseline utility for all sorcerers that the passive currently provides, but it would also provide a small additional bonus for those sorcerers who choose to not run the pets. This small change would also prevent the issue of constantly fluctuating max stats due to atro being summoned/ending or twilight/scamp being killed etc. This would be less of an issue if sorc had an ultimate as reliable as atro, alas, until overload or negate get a morph reworked, this won't be the case.

In saying that, I do like the idea behind this change to expert summoner because it allows for what we discussed on the other thread about changing armaments to give crit chance/major prophecy/savagery while still keeping that max stat feature available to sorcerers, but it just needs some tweaks to remove the conflicts in the current design of the passive and it needs armaments to get that change to buff crit chance.

acastanza_ESO

Max health is simply more useful in the circumstances where you're most likely to not have pets. Giving it to the pet builds is a bad decision. Nothing they've done here is going to even come close to providing a viable non-pet option for PVE so putting the most impactful max stat on the build that it works best on is the best thing for all Sorcerer builds. The most impactful stat is health for non-pet and mag/stam for pet.

But that is only if they insist on keeping the core idea of this change and don't adopt one of the other better ideas people have given here.

MashmalloMan

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

MashmalloMan wrote: »

acastanza_ESO wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

The ward changes are good, definitely a step in the right direction.

I need to test the healing potential of encase morph, I can see it being very good, but also mid. Needs testing.

The mines changes are interesting for sure, needs testing and thinking about.

Lightning splash was a swing and a miss. too much of its damage is tied to the synergy, it needs that changed and its damage over time buffed before it will be considered over better global options.

Expert summoner missed the mark unless I am missing something with it. It sounds good in theory, but when you look at it deeper, it just doesn't synergize with how sorc is played. in PvP sorc wants more health for bigger wards, but it cannot fit the pets, while in PvE it wants the max stats for damage, but the pets are the best damage (for PvE) the class has, so it loses the bonus stats by using its best DPS tools.

Overall the changes look fine, but there's still the most important issue, bar space. Until this is addressed, the class will always have overarching issues, especially when the inevitable nerf hammer comes down on the new abilities because the flashy new skills ZOS tried out were made too strong to try and make up for this issue.

Yeah if these are the only sorc changes we're going to get (which I hope not) we really need to rally around them swapping the Max Health and Max Mag/Stam buffs so that you get max resource when pets/hardened ward is active (e.g. when you're on the offensive) and Max Health when you have no pets/no ward (e.g. on the defensive, or need it more to contribute to Blood Magic more)

I don't want that, I don't support that idea.

What does a pve no pet sorc need with 10% hp? Nothing. The issue @Turtle_Bot brought up is that a pve sorc does not currently want to drop their pets because they deal too much of our DPS. So how would the solution be to give pet sorcs the 10% mag/stam when they're not the ones that need it? That defeats the entire purpose of adding this new passive in the first place. The solution is to start updating no pet sorc skills like Lightning Flood, Haunting Curse, Bound Armaments, and Mages Fury that would be the first skills you go to when you start removing pets. While they're at it, reverse the Daedric Prey buff from 20% to 45% which is severely overtuned and meant as a bandaid because our DPS tanked with U35.

For pvp, this is net gain for most players seeing as having a multiplier for your main and off resource is beneficial. If you lack HP, you can simply invest less stam or mag to pump up your hp to a suitable level. You're more likely to find a mag sorc with higher max magicka than a mag sorc with higher max hp, so while those builds exist, why would we have to flip the passives specifically for 1 niche. For stam sorc which doesn't typically stack high stamina, yes, it's a bit of a loss, but marginal all things considered.

Honestly, if ZOS are that determined to keep this change for expert summoner, it should have kept the Health buff as it currently is (essentially up all the time), then if you have no pets active, you also get the bonus magicka and stamina. This way it has the same baseline utility for all sorcerers that the passive currently provides, but it would also provide a small additional bonus for those sorcerers who choose to not run the pets. This small change would also prevent the issue of constantly fluctuating max stats due to atro being summoned/ending or twilight/scamp being killed etc. This would be less of an issue if sorc had an ultimate as reliable as atro, alas, until overload or negate get a morph reworked, this won't be the case.

In saying that, I do like the idea behind this change to expert summoner because it allows for what we discussed on the other thread about changing armaments to give crit chance/major prophecy/savagery while still keeping that max stat feature available to sorcerers, but it just needs some tweaks to remove the conflicts in the current design of the passive and it needs armaments to get that change to buff crit chance.

I'll agree with that, but it seems a bit overtuned in the current state. Like I could see 7 or 8% instead.

Tannus15

MashmalloMan wrote: »

acastanza_ESO wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

The ward changes are good, definitely a step in the right direction.

I need to test the healing potential of encase morph, I can see it being very good, but also mid. Needs testing.

The mines changes are interesting for sure, needs testing and thinking about.

Lightning splash was a swing and a miss. too much of its damage is tied to the synergy, it needs that changed and its damage over time buffed before it will be considered over better global options.

Expert summoner missed the mark unless I am missing something with it. It sounds good in theory, but when you look at it deeper, it just doesn't synergize with how sorc is played. in PvP sorc wants more health for bigger wards, but it cannot fit the pets, while in PvE it wants the max stats for damage, but the pets are the best damage (for PvE) the class has, so it loses the bonus stats by using its best DPS tools.

Overall the changes look fine, but there's still the most important issue, bar space. Until this is addressed, the class will always have overarching issues, especially when the inevitable nerf hammer comes down on the new abilities because the flashy new skills ZOS tried out were made too strong to try and make up for this issue.

Yeah if these are the only sorc changes we're going to get (which I hope not) we really need to rally around them swapping the Max Health and Max Mag/Stam buffs so that you get max resource when pets/hardened ward is active (e.g. when you're on the offensive) and Max Health when you have no pets/no ward (e.g. on the defensive, or need it more to contribute to Blood Magic more)

I don't want that, I don't support that idea.

What does a pve no pet sorc need with 10% hp? Nothing. The issue @Turtle_Bot brought up is that a pve sorc does not currently want to drop their pets because they deal too much of our DPS. So how would the solution be to give pet sorcs the 10% mag/stam when they're not the ones that need it? That defeats the entire purpose of adding this new passive in the first place. The solution is to start updating no pet sorc skills like Lightning Flood, Haunting Curse, Bound Armaments, and Mages Fury that would be the first skills you go to when you start removing pets. While they're at it, reverse the Daedric Prey buff from 20% to 45% which is severely overtuned and meant as a bandaid because our DPS tanked with U35.

For pvp, this is net gain for most players seeing as having a multiplier for your main and off resource is beneficial. If you lack HP, you can simply invest less stam or mag to pump up your hp to a suitable level. You're more likely to find a mag sorc with higher max magicka than a mag sorc with higher max hp, so while those builds exist, why would we have to flip the passives specifically for 1 niche. For stam sorc which doesn't typically stack high stamina, yes, it's a bit of a loss, but marginal all things considered.

this, exactly this. it's so obvious i don't understand why zos don't know it or see it. but i guess tormentor aoe taunt was "flying under the radar" for like 5 years to them while it was common knowledge to everyone else..

buff the non pet skills so it's a valid choice to replace scamp with lightning flood & mages wrath.
it's not currently a valid choice. it's a dumb choice. you're making a dumb choice to do that.

nevermind no pet builds, 1 pet builds aren't a good dps choice right now.

or how about this, since we clearly have the technology:

change Energized to "if no pets are summoned increase shock and physical damage by <BIGGER %>"

there, i did it. i made no pet sorc work. someone give me a raise.

Turtle_Bot

MashmalloMan wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

MashmalloMan wrote: »

acastanza_ESO wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

The ward changes are good, definitely a step in the right direction.

I need to test the healing potential of encase morph, I can see it being very good, but also mid. Needs testing.

The mines changes are interesting for sure, needs testing and thinking about.

Lightning splash was a swing and a miss. too much of its damage is tied to the synergy, it needs that changed and its damage over time buffed before it will be considered over better global options.

Expert summoner missed the mark unless I am missing something with it. It sounds good in theory, but when you look at it deeper, it just doesn't synergize with how sorc is played. in PvP sorc wants more health for bigger wards, but it cannot fit the pets, while in PvE it wants the max stats for damage, but the pets are the best damage (for PvE) the class has, so it loses the bonus stats by using its best DPS tools.

Overall the changes look fine, but there's still the most important issue, bar space. Until this is addressed, the class will always have overarching issues, especially when the inevitable nerf hammer comes down on the new abilities because the flashy new skills ZOS tried out were made too strong to try and make up for this issue.

Yeah if these are the only sorc changes we're going to get (which I hope not) we really need to rally around them swapping the Max Health and Max Mag/Stam buffs so that you get max resource when pets/hardened ward is active (e.g. when you're on the offensive) and Max Health when you have no pets/no ward (e.g. on the defensive, or need it more to contribute to Blood Magic more)

I don't want that, I don't support that idea.

What does a pve no pet sorc need with 10% hp? Nothing. The issue @Turtle_Bot brought up is that a pve sorc does not currently want to drop their pets because they deal too much of our DPS. So how would the solution be to give pet sorcs the 10% mag/stam when they're not the ones that need it? That defeats the entire purpose of adding this new passive in the first place. The solution is to start updating no pet sorc skills like Lightning Flood, Haunting Curse, Bound Armaments, and Mages Fury that would be the first skills you go to when you start removing pets. While they're at it, reverse the Daedric Prey buff from 20% to 45% which is severely overtuned and meant as a bandaid because our DPS tanked with U35.

For pvp, this is net gain for most players seeing as having a multiplier for your main and off resource is beneficial. If you lack HP, you can simply invest less stam or mag to pump up your hp to a suitable level. You're more likely to find a mag sorc with higher max magicka than a mag sorc with higher max hp, so while those builds exist, why would we have to flip the passives specifically for 1 niche. For stam sorc which doesn't typically stack high stamina, yes, it's a bit of a loss, but marginal all things considered.

Honestly, if ZOS are that determined to keep this change for expert summoner, it should have kept the Health buff as it currently is (essentially up all the time), then if you have no pets active, you also get the bonus magicka and stamina. This way it has the same baseline utility for all sorcerers that the passive currently provides, but it would also provide a small additional bonus for those sorcerers who choose to not run the pets. This small change would also prevent the issue of constantly fluctuating max stats due to atro being summoned/ending or twilight/scamp being killed etc. This would be less of an issue if sorc had an ultimate as reliable as atro, alas, until overload or negate get a morph reworked, this won't be the case.

In saying that, I do like the idea behind this change to expert summoner because it allows for what we discussed on the other thread about changing armaments to give crit chance/major prophecy/savagery while still keeping that max stat feature available to sorcerers, but it just needs some tweaks to remove the conflicts in the current design of the passive and it needs armaments to get that change to buff crit chance.

I'll agree with that, but it seems a bit overtuned in the current state. Like I could see 7 or 8% instead.

yeah, I'd be fine with a reduction to the values to that if it worked as I described. tbh, I'd probably be fine with it being as low as 6% too (although that falls below the standard 7/8% ZOS puts on everything else).

Duke_Falcon

acastanza_ESO wrote: »

Max health is simply more useful in the circumstances where you're most likely to not have pets. Giving it to the pet builds is a bad decision. Nothing they've done here is going to even come close to providing a viable non-pet option for PVE so putting the most impactful max stat on the build that it works best on is the best thing for all Sorcerer builds. The most impactful stat is health for non-pet and mag/stam for pet.

But that is only if they insist on keeping the core idea of this change and don't adopt one of the other better ideas people have given here.

I understand that your arguing for a buff to pve Sorcs by switching HP/Mag on the Expert Summoner passive with Pet vs NonPet Sorcs. However for PvP NonPet Sorcs, Max HP is trash, complete trash. No Pvper is going to agree with that change.

acastanza_ESO

Duke_Falcon wrote: »

acastanza_ESO wrote: »

Max health is simply more useful in the circumstances where you're most likely to not have pets. Giving it to the pet builds is a bad decision. Nothing they've done here is going to even come close to providing a viable non-pet option for PVE so putting the most impactful max stat on the build that it works best on is the best thing for all Sorcerer builds. The most impactful stat is health for non-pet and mag/stam for pet.

But that is only if they insist on keeping the core idea of this change and don't adopt one of the other better ideas people have given here.

I understand that your arguing for a buff to pve Sorcs by switching HP/Mag on the Expert Summoner passive with Pet vs NonPet Sorcs. However for PvP NonPet Sorcs, Max HP is trash, complete trash. No Pvper is going to agree with that change.

Lol, I literally main pvp on a Sorc I just don't stack max mag because it isn't 2017 anymore. If you're not pumping up your health, sorry but you're the one VDing everyone around you.

Jsmalls

acastanza_ESO wrote: »

Lol, I literally main pvp on a Sorc I just don't stack max mag because it isn't 2017 anymore. If you're not pumping up your health, sorry but you're the one VDing everyone around you.

If you're a MagSorc and don't have your Ward up (bumps effective health to over 40k) then that's a skill issue.

I run with 27k health and have no issues surviving bombs.

acastanza_ESO

Jsmalls wrote: »

acastanza_ESO wrote: »

Lol, I literally main pvp on a Sorc I just don't stack max mag because it isn't 2017 anymore. If you're not pumping up your health, sorry but you're the one VDing everyone around you.

If you're a MagSorc and don't have your Ward up (bumps effective health to over 40k) then that's a skill issue.

I run with 27k health and have no issues surviving bombs.

Ward is not a reliable counter to bombs lol, 27k health magsorcs are some of the the first to pop and tend to be who I target first with my pulls. Not to mention you're no longer going to be getting a passive bump to your max health from running ward if this change goes through as it is currently (read the wording of the change carefully). Ward is simply not as reliable protection as max health and running max health and stacking weapon/spell damage is just as effective and ultimately more survivable when fighting coordinated groups.

I55UE5

I like the changes so far, but what I lack as a Stamina Sorcerer with no pets is a reliable self heal.

Yes, I have Crit Surge active as an Orc.. so staying on target keeps me alive.. but when I can't do that I am forced to run around spamming Dark Conversion. I shouldn't need to explain why doing that feels terrible.

My proposition is a simple one.

The new Conjured Ward heal is a great addition.. but due to the 15% max health heal.. its still almost better to rely on Dark Conversion, as the heal is likely larger.

Ember's Companion skill for Conjured Ward is a Heal Over Time. YOU GOT THIS RIGHT!

Please make the new Conjured Ward heal a HoT, to match what you did with the companion skill line.

Jsmalls

acastanza_ESO wrote: »

Jsmalls wrote: »

acastanza_ESO wrote: »

Lol, I literally main pvp on a Sorc I just don't stack max mag because it isn't 2017 anymore. If you're not pumping up your health, sorry but you're the one VDing everyone around you.

If you're a MagSorc and don't have your Ward up (bumps effective health to over 40k) then that's a skill issue.

I run with 27k health and have no issues surviving bombs.

Ward is not a reliable counter to bombs lol, 27k health magsorcs are some of the the first to pop and tend to be who I target first with my pulls. Not to mention you're no longer going to be getting a passive bump to your max health from running ward if this change goes through as it is currently (read the wording of the change carefully). Ward is simply not as reliable protection as max health and running max health and stacking weapon/spell damage is just as effective and ultimately more survivable when fighting coordinated groups.

Once again it's definitely a skill issue. Keeping up your Ward is a requirement for advanced Mag Sorc playstyle. I'm sure you're popping pugs, but a good player using ward correctly won't get caught by the bomb.

acastanza_ESO

I55UE5 wrote: »

I like the changes so far, but what I lack as a Stamina Sorcerer with no pets is a reliable self heal.

Yes, I have Crit Surge active as an Orc.. so staying on target keeps me alive.. but when I can't do that I am forced to run around spamming Dark Conversion. I shouldn't need to explain why doing that feels terrible.

My proposition is a simple one.

The new Conjured Ward heal is a great addition.. but due to the 15% max health heal.. its still almost better to rely on Dark Conversion, as the heal is likely larger.

Ember's Companion skill for Conjured Ward is a Heal Over Time. YOU GOT THIS RIGHT!

Please make the new Conjured Ward heal a HoT, to match what you did with the companion skill line.

Not to mention they got this on Arcanist. Tidal Chakram when cast with 3 Crux gives you a heal over time, and it can affect you or an ally. Considering that Ward can only target you just giving it the heal over time is reasonable.

Jsmalls wrote: »

acastanza_ESO wrote: »

Jsmalls wrote: »

acastanza_ESO wrote: »

Lol, I literally main pvp on a Sorc I just don't stack max mag because it isn't 2017 anymore. If you're not pumping up your health, sorry but you're the one VDing everyone around you.

If you're a MagSorc and don't have your Ward up (bumps effective health to over 40k) then that's a skill issue.

I run with 27k health and have no issues surviving bombs.

Ward is not a reliable counter to bombs lol, 27k health magsorcs are some of the the first to pop and tend to be who I target first with my pulls. Not to mention you're no longer going to be getting a passive bump to your max health from running ward if this change goes through as it is currently (read the wording of the change carefully). Ward is simply not as reliable protection as max health and running max health and stacking weapon/spell damage is just as effective and ultimately more survivable when fighting coordinated groups.

Once again it's definitely a skill issue. Keeping up your Ward is a requirement for advanced Mag Sorc playstyle. I'm sure you're popping pugs, but a good player using ward correctly won't get caught by the bomb.

This is demonstrably untrue. The only place this playstyle is good is 1vXing against bad players in the middle of nowhere. Now this might change with the buffs to sorc here, but panic casting ward as it gets deleted by damage procs while simultaneously trying to break out of fears and CCs is simply worse than having enough health to survive, block, and walk out.
No Ward builds win this scenario ever time. And considering this is how all coordinated groups do their damage, they win overall.
Now If Sorc got block mitigation on Ward without needing to waste a CP slot on a mediocre perk, I might agree with you though. There are definitely ways ZOS could make it viable, the tools are in the game, but it isn't now - and this change isn't it.

Jsmalls

@acastanza_ESO

Having a ward up and getting CC'd is no different than your full health bar. Ward are just proactive rather than reactive (making them better counters to bombs if you can read the situation). The only scenario this will come into play is if they CC you at the exact moment your Ward disappears. Otherwise any damage done would be bringing a normal health bar to lower levels at the same pace as the ward.

It's cool to just agree to disagree we keep restating our point, ggs.

grzes848909

I55UE5 wrote: »

Please make the new Conjured Ward heal a HoT, to match what you did with the companion skill line.

I second this. Sorc will be having 4 instant health abilites
- 2 pets with each having a morph that gives you instant heal
- dark deal that gives you instant(ish considering cast time but upfront heal nonetheless)
- and soon new morph of entomb ''Vibrant Shroud''
But no heal overtime. Moreover for comparison majority of other classes already have access to a HoT thanks to their class abilities. And top it all off you could add the heal overtime to the regenerative ward morph to make it more competitive against hardened ward and to give players more options; hardened for bigger shield and heal upfront; more utility and small bonuses for regenerative
As for the exact number values and details I and rest of us should leave them to the devs.

Grim_Overlord

grzes848909 wrote: »

Sorc will be having 4 instant health abilites
- 2 pets with each having a morph that gives you instant heal
- dark deal that gives you instant(ish considering cast time but upfront heal nonetheless)
- and soon new morph of entomb ''Vibrant Shroud''
But no heal overtime. Moreover for comparison majority of other classes already have access to a HoT thanks to their class abilities. And top it all off you could add the heal overtime to the regenerative ward morph to make it more competitive against hardened ward and to give players more options; hardened for bigger shield and heal upfront; more utility and small bonuses for regenerative
As for the exact number values and details I and rest of us should leave them to the devs.

Would it destroy any particular playstyle or be too overpowered to change regenerative to not target pets but instead target up to six allies with the lowest amount of shield while also giving a small HoT as well as the minor buffs it already provides? Obviously the strength of the shield would reduced in this situation to make up for it applying to everyone.