Awful PvP meta

Overamera · January 29

I really hope they have done something about this meta. Masters dual wield, Vateshran, Relequen, Dragons appetite, Jeralls, maarselok. Everyone is running the same and if you don't do it you are putting yourself in a huge disadvantage. Plus that arcanist with it's huge defense is broken with these sets. Pretty much unkillable while it can deal so much damage.

Rhaegar75 · January 29

Overamera wrote: »

I really hope they have done something about this meta. Masters dual wield, Vateshran, Relequen, Dragons appetite, Jeralls, maarselok. Everyone is running the same and if you don't do it you are putting yourself in a huge disadvantage. Plus that arcanist with it's huge defense is broken with these sets. Pretty much unkillable while it can deal so much damage.

/seconded

olsborg · January 29

Rhaegar75 wrote: »

Overamera wrote: »

I really hope they have done something about this meta. Masters dual wield, Vateshran, Relequen, Dragons appetite, Jeralls, maarselok. Everyone is running the same and if you don't do it you are putting yourself in a huge disadvantage. Plus that arcanist with it's huge defense is broken with these sets. Pretty much unkillable while it can deal so much damage.

/seconded

/thirded

StarOfElyon · January 29

I've said it a hundred times: procs that do damage and heal for you will always be bad for PVP.

mmtaniac · January 29

Biggest problem is undeath.

Overamera · January 29

mmtaniac wrote: »

Biggest problem is undeath.

I agree, undeath is also incredibly broken.

Frooke · January 29

mmtaniac wrote: »

Biggest problem is undeath.

Undeath is the only thing keeping everyone alive in this meta, proc sets shouldn't scale so well with low weapon/spell damage, and heal with max health is ruining pvp

Galeriano · January 29

StarOfElyon wrote: »

I've said it a hundred times: procs that do damage and heal for you will always be bad for PVP.

Well somehow non proc IC and Cyro are as far from being balanced as regular campaigns.

xylena_lazarow · January 29

Counterpoint: I love procs. This is a one of the better metas in a while. Damage has recovered somewhat since the tragic u35. Proc complainers are just a vocal minority as evidenced by the complete failure of Ravenwatch.

olsborg · January 29

Undeath is the main culprit to this meta imo, and healing while blocking is also just super strong.

olsborg · January 29

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Counterpoint: I love procs. This is a one of the better metas in a while. Damage has recovered somewhat since the tragic u35. Proc complainers are just a vocal minority as evidenced by the complete failure of Ravenwatch.

Its not a complete failure at all, sure its quite empty during the daytime, but at 20-23CET its 2 to 3 bars across the board and bussing. I think if ZOS made it more clear wich sets worked and wich didnt work from an ingame UI somehow, it would be more active, also they should add a few more sets like the sets that "procc" with stats if you have a food or a drink for instance.

ArctosCethlenn · January 29

Galeriano wrote: »

StarOfElyon wrote: »

I've said it a hundred times: procs that do damage and heal for you will always be bad for PVP.

Well somehow non proc IC and Cyro are as far from being balanced as regular campaigns.

Not at all shocking, the classes with absolutely garbage class kits (looking at you, necromancer) can at least bandaid their problems with proc sets in the regular campaigns.

Tyrant_Tim · January 29

Had to rope Relequen in there too, didn’t you?

While I agree with the majority of your OP, I don’t agree with nerfing Relequen’s DPS. That is the last thing players are going to want to deal with in PvE, and will gut ranged builds in PvP.

StarOfElyon · January 29

Frooke wrote: »

mmtaniac wrote: »

Biggest problem is undeath.

Undeath is the only thing keeping everyone alive in this meta, proc sets shouldn't scale so well with low weapon/spell damage, and heal with max health is ruining pvp

I play non-vampire on a number of my characters. Players are supposed to die. But I agree that procs are a serious problem.

Twohothardware · January 29

Damage scaling needs to be completely overhauled and taken back to when max stamina and magicka was important and proc sets need to stop dealing a flat amount of damage. Procs need to go back to being scaled based on damage.

They made this change because of the high damage players used to be able to do with procs but you want to know what was different about that meta? No one was running over 30k health.

I’d much rather have a high damage meta where players die fast than a meta with 40k+ health ballgroups that are unkillable without multiple bombers.

Tyrant_Tim · January 29

olsborg wrote: »

Undeath is the main culprit to this meta imo, and healing while blocking is also just super strong.

It’s honestly using any skills while blocking.

Block-casting in general has always been an overperforming mechanic, which is why a class like DK trades off zero defense when going offensive.

gariondavey · January 29

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Counterpoint: I love procs. This is a one of the better metas in a while. Damage has recovered somewhat since the tragic u35. Proc complainers are just a vocal minority as evidenced by the complete failure of Ravenwatch.

I'd prefer no proc damage or proc healing but I also like being able to back bar sets like wretched vitality or rallying cry, and use more than like 3 mythics that rw offers.

If they reworked rw to include proc stat sets that would be awesome.

JerBearESO · January 29

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

olsborg wrote: »

Undeath is the main culprit to this meta imo, and healing while blocking is also just super strong.

It’s honestly using any skills while blocking.

Block-casting in general has always been an overperforming mechanic, which is why a class like DK trades off zero defense when going offensive.

Block casting is not overpowered. The idea of trying to fix things by making the player somehow unable to block and use abilities is odd. Like so they drop block for 0.0001 seconds to cast an ability and re block???

Anyway, block mitigation itself is the problem. Battle spirit should cut that in half

Zulera301 · January 29

so in other words, the proc-set-of-the-month is OP, ZOS nerf plz.

not to say that this isn't problematic, but this has literally been ZOS's formula for almost a decade. The odds of them ever bothering to change it is between 0.000 and 0.000.

StarOfElyon · January 29

gariondavey wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Counterpoint: I love procs. This is a one of the better metas in a while. Damage has recovered somewhat since the tragic u35. Proc complainers are just a vocal minority as evidenced by the complete failure of Ravenwatch.

I'd prefer no proc damage or proc healing but I also like being able to back bar sets like wretched vitality or rallying cry, and use more than like 3 mythics that rw offers.

If they reworked rw to include proc stat sets that would be awesome.

Isn't that part of what causes a "meta" to emerge? As much as I crutch on Wretched Vitality, it's made other sustain sets obsolete because it can be back barred. I would like sets that must be worn at all times in order to get their effects to be buffed to be on par with sets that can be single barred.

Kartalin · January 29

StarOfElyon wrote: »

gariondavey wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Counterpoint: I love procs. This is a one of the better metas in a while. Damage has recovered somewhat since the tragic u35. Proc complainers are just a vocal minority as evidenced by the complete failure of Ravenwatch.

I'd prefer no proc damage or proc healing but I also like being able to back bar sets like wretched vitality or rallying cry, and use more than like 3 mythics that rw offers.

If they reworked rw to include proc stat sets that would be awesome.

Isn't that part of what causes a "meta" to emerge? As much as I crutch on Wretched Vitality, it's made other sustain sets obsolete because it can be back barred. I would like sets that must be worn at all times in order to get their effects to be buffed to be on par with sets that can be single barred.

Exactly. I wonder if the ability to get the full benefit of a set from running it on just one bar is factored into their balancing. I can't imagine very many people using Bright Throat or Bone Pirate anymore with Wretched Vitality available, especially since hybridization happened.

Also agree with @gariondavey that if no proc only excluded damage and healing procs (especially the free ones) it might be a lot more interesting to theorycraft for that scenario. I think at its inception that's kind of what we were hoping would happen.

HowlKimchi · January 30

If you think this PvP meta is awful, then you probably werent actively playing a few updates ago. The meta then actually made me stop playing (along with poor server performance). These days, I started playing again and the experience has been pleasant (both the meta and server performance).

And regarding your point about everyone running the same thing. It has always been like that, regardless of how "good"
or "awful" the meta is. People will follow what's popular. If you actually stop and think, since everyone is running the same thing, you could theoretically make your own build that counters the meta.

Shadowbinder7 · July 27

olsborg wrote: »

Undeath is the main culprit to this meta imo, and healing while blocking is also just super strong.

One thing to note ZOS

Funnily enough while I’m not a fan of boring heal tanks who wait for one moment in a while to burst, I actually don’t mind this. It’s nice there is variety between the squishier or ranged and tankier or melee PVP build.

As I’m sure many will agree though I actually hate that this undeath passive almost everyone feel they have to Vamp.

Even on one of my NBs I don’t want her to be a vampire! Doesn’t suit her theme! I hope the nerf to 10% passive in U43 fixes this but I worry ppl will still say vamp or gimping yourself out in PVP

On another note with Vampire… the passive that grants 300 spell damage out of stealth… can’t NBs have the same passive with their cloak (non stacking of course) so all NBs don’t feel they HAVE to curse their chars for pvp?

xylena_lazarow · July 27

Overamera wrote: »

I really hope they have done something about this meta. Masters dual wield, Vateshran, Relequen, Dragons appetite, Jeralls, maarselok.

So they did. All those builds were nerfed, replaced by different proc builds. Ranged stealth burst proc stacking.

Tarnished is infinitely worse than anything MDW ever did. Careful what you wish for.

TechMaybeHic · July 27

Shadowbinder7 wrote: »

olsborg wrote: »

Undeath is the main culprit to this meta imo, and healing while blocking is also just super strong.

One thing to note ZOS

Funnily enough while I’m not a fan of boring heal tanks who wait for one moment in a while to burst, I actually don’t mind this. It’s nice there is variety between the squishier or ranged and tankier or melee PVP build.

As I’m sure many will agree though I actually hate that this undeath passive almost everyone feel they have to Vamp.

Even on one of my NBs I don’t want her to be a vampire! Doesn’t suit her theme! I hope the nerf to 10% passive in U43 fixes this but I worry ppl will still say vamp or gimping yourself out in PVP

On another note with Vampire… the passive that grants 300 spell damage out of stealth… can’t NBs have the same passive with their cloak (non stacking of course) so all NBs don’t feel they HAVE to curse their chars for pvp?

It should be changed to a strictly vamp requirement entirely. No reason for NBs to just have easy automatic access other classes don't external to the containment of class balance.

FoJul · July 27

Galeriano wrote: »

StarOfElyon wrote: »

I've said it a hundred times: procs that do damage and heal for you will always be bad for PVP.

Well somehow non proc IC and Cyro are as far from being balanced as regular campaigns.

I've been in there recently, and experienced that NO CP IC , Wardens are extremely cracked. Onslought and beetles, and pretty much everything dies. lol

In the No CP campaign list, you are forced to run stat dense sets, therefore NB, DK, Warden, and Sorc are going to outperform the other 3 classes by a huge margin. Sorc and Nightblade being the most broken.

I think, personally, I think cross heals and cross buffs shouldn't exist. its nice for groups, but it's too problematic when you have 6 regen and 6 vigor's going at once. (and its usually more than 6) Even in sweaty premade BG's, you aren't really competing for kills, your competing for damage anymore. It's so had even for a Group v Group to secure kills because of the Hot stacking.

Additionally, Being able to stack every buff in the game also is kinda insane. Its like 12 man trial groups, except for PvP. Stat coverage everywhere and stacking crossheals instead of crit chance lulz.

So maybe a limit similar to rallying cry on healing and buff duration, and then make it to where you can't heal someone in another group or in no group.

Shadowbinder7 · July 27

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

Shadowbinder7 wrote: »

olsborg wrote: »

Undeath is the main culprit to this meta imo, and healing while blocking is also just super strong.

One thing to note ZOS

Funnily enough while I’m not a fan of boring heal tanks who wait for one moment in a while to burst, I actually don’t mind this. It’s nice there is variety between the squishier or ranged and tankier or melee PVP build.

As I’m sure many will agree though I actually hate that this undeath passive almost everyone feel they have to Vamp.

Even on one of my NBs I don’t want her to be a vampire! Doesn’t suit her theme! I hope the nerf to 10% passive in U43 fixes this but I worry ppl will still say vamp or gimping yourself out in PVP

On another note with Vampire… the passive that grants 300 spell damage out of stealth… can’t NBs have the same passive with their cloak (non stacking of course) so all NBs don’t feel they HAVE to curse their chars for pvp?

It should be changed to a strictly vamp requirement entirely. No reason for NBs to just have easy automatic access other classes don't external to the containment of class balance.

You misunderstood. Nightblade has no such passive. I’m saying they should, same as vampire.

Since… they’re the only class that can go invisible regularly anyway. The strike from shadows passive on vamp combined with simmering frenzy just pushes all NBs to feel they need to become a vamp in PVP which shouldn’t be the case. That should be changed or removed. Or only affect monsters.

Stop pushing vampirism into pvp. It’s a lore thing

TechMaybeHic · July 27

Shadowbinder7 wrote: »

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

Shadowbinder7 wrote: »

olsborg wrote: »

Undeath is the main culprit to this meta imo, and healing while blocking is also just super strong.

One thing to note ZOS

Funnily enough while I’m not a fan of boring heal tanks who wait for one moment in a while to burst, I actually don’t mind this. It’s nice there is variety between the squishier or ranged and tankier or melee PVP build.

As I’m sure many will agree though I actually hate that this undeath passive almost everyone feel they have to Vamp.

Even on one of my NBs I don’t want her to be a vampire! Doesn’t suit her theme! I hope the nerf to 10% passive in U43 fixes this but I worry ppl will still say vamp or gimping yourself out in PVP

On another note with Vampire… the passive that grants 300 spell damage out of stealth… can’t NBs have the same passive with their cloak (non stacking of course) so all NBs don’t feel they HAVE to curse their chars for pvp?

It should be changed to a strictly vamp requirement entirely. No reason for NBs to just have easy automatic access other classes don't external to the containment of class balance.

You misunderstood. Nightblade has no such passive. I’m saying they should, same as vampire.

Since… they’re the only class that can go invisible regularly anyway. The strike from shadows passive on vamp combined with simmering frenzy just pushes all NBs to feel they need to become a vamp in PVP which shouldn’t be the case. That should be changed or removed. Or only affect monsters.

Stop pushing vampirism into pvp. It’s a lore thing

I understood. I'm saying NB needs no such passive. Even from vamp. That passive in vamp should only apply to mist form.

Tommy_The_Gun · July 27

I think that the biggest issue right now is what Ball Groups have become. Over the years stuff was kept getting adjusted. Sometimes it were nerfs ,sometime it were buffs, but Ball Group (PvP Group environment) kept only receiving buffs.

Right now, this play style is not comparable to anything else. It is totally different league. The "ease of use vs effectives" ratio is just something that came from outer space.

Right now, the biggest issue imho is heal stacking (stacking same healing ability). So for example, you can have like 10X Vigors + some radiant regen. The effect is that you can pretty much have like 20k+ health recovery. So Ball Groups are generally immortal. Sieges, which generally were designed to deal massive burst AOE dmg to deal with groups of players, but have a very obvious and clear telegraph are pretty much ignored by those groups. There is no real counter to something like this. Even other ball group can not kill other ball group.

It always baffles me when people say that this class is OP or that skill is broken, but no one addresses huge disproportions in play styles, and one of them dominating the oethers so much so that it kinda feels like some kind of cheat & exploit, rather than an allowed play style.

Ball Groups right now are imho the biggest Caltrop when it comes to PvP. The amount of how many times those groups were destroying the otherwise neat experience is criminal. I mean, imagine if you are a new player, who just wants to see how PvP in ESO looks like and you are greated with something like this.... No wonder PvP is dying. A lot of veterans have left due to ball groups problem not being addressed over the years and a lot of potential new players just won't replace them for the very same reason.

Durham · July 29

You can run a small man group and go to the back keeps and fight other small mans on the server. The best defense to a ball group is not engaging them! If we encounter one we spread in every direction they might kill 1 person. We move to another area! If you can avoid them PVP becomes so much better and the lag is greatly reduced. Its so much more fun to know who you kill and have small balanced fights! You can also make tons of AP this way! I have 3 GOs all done in the small man environment and Im a very casual player.

Highwayman · July 29

Shadowbinder7 wrote: »

Nightblade has no such passive. I’m saying they should, same as vampire.

Since… they’re the only class that can go invisible regularly anyway. The strike from shadows passive on vamp combined with simmering frenzy just pushes all NBs to feel they need to become a vamp in PVP which shouldn’t be the case. That should be changed or removed. Or only affect monsters.

Stop pushing vampirism into pvp. It’s a lore thing

It's not a passive, but to be fair, they do have something similar and it's built into shadowy disguise.

I also agree with getting the current vampirism meta out of pvp. However, having one class that happens to synergize well with it isn't my biggest concern.

I'd like to see vampirism passives scaled with stage. For example undeath could be 3% per stage, strike from the shadows 75 damage per stage, etc.. That's just throw it out there numbers though. It could be balanced against stage penalties and other passives as a whole.