Do you sometimes worry?

SandandStars

Do you sometimes worry that you might be playing against nightblades in PvP who don’t acknowledge the class is op and just think they’re really good?

IncultaWolf

Just play necromancer, nobody will think they're good when they kill you. Meme class after all

SandandStars

😁

Well said

Rohamad_Ali

TY all nightblades that clear evil ball groups. You are the real heroes here.

Vaqual

You are obsessed.

DrNukenstein

What fair and balanced play styles do you enjoy, lady?

El_Borracho

Does this mean that the season of blaming DKs for constantly dying because of ineffective builds, poor strategy, or just general lack of skill is over? Hooray!

SandandStars

crutches i avoid: nb, dk, undeath, vatesh staff, masters dw, engine guardian

it’s just personal preference, i realize. i don’t get satisfaction from letting my class or gear win for me.

seems like maybe i’m playing the wrong game, yeah?

SeaGtGruff

As someone whose alt main is a Nightblade, I frequently get killed by other Nightblades in PvP. The class might be considered OP right now, but not the way I play it! ;D There's more to this than class; overall build, equipped gear, slotted skills (including CP skills), rotations, etc., make a huge difference, otherwise my alt main wouldn't stink in PvP as much as he does.

DrNukenstein

NB or DK- means playing another class with it's own tricks. Like how sorcs can hit with 3 skills in a gcd on demand, or how wardens can do the same thing but AOE, or how templars have the best execute in the game which is also unblockable and undodgeable. Those are just examples, it's not like each class only has one trick. Unless you play necro, which has no trick bag.

Undeath- If you aren't build to hold block and spam heals it will make it so you can take one more hit. If you are built to hold block and spam heals, I don't think undeath is the problem. It's biggest problem is that there is no opportunity cost aside from being a vampire.

Masters dw: Takes power out of the rest of your kit and moves it to dw dot skill. No cap: 10k pen, 7k weapon damage, 30k mag and I saw masters dw ticking for 964 on an oaken soul pulse spammer. That's not auto win pressure. That's just annoying. For the price of 2 slots, you can add at least 2 masters dw ticks worth of damage to your big hit.

Vat Staff: It's a back bar decision. Similar argument to masters dw, but competes with strong defense and sustain options that you would want single barred. Also, easily broken with LOS. Everytime I bust it out I remember that Plaguebreak back bar with ele-sus is way more reliable and better for setting up a Maarselok dunk.

Engine Guardian: Stupid carry set. Whenever I see a nerd with a robot, I go up to them, tap lock on button, bash and take their lunch money if they don't streak away. Still competes with Balorgh and Maarselok.

These are all prominent things in the meta right now, but crutches don't come with trade offs. Unlike pulse and bowblades who are truly experiencing a different game lately with their respectable ranged damage, easy dot application, and best in class safety with cloak and constant both expeditions used exclusively to get away as opposed to get to. What other playstyle consistently goes positive with less than 20k hp and one bar.

Aiden_Ayzaria

DrNukenstein wrote: »

NB or DK- means playing another class with it's own tricks. Like how sorcs can hit with 3 skills in a gcd on demand, or how wardens can do the same thing but AOE, or how templars have the best execute in the game which is also unblockable and undodgeable. Those are just examples, it's not like each class only has one trick. Unless you play necro, which has no trick bag.

Mmmhh correct me if I'm wrong but Templar exec is blockable if I remember correctly. I know it's a single target dot channel but it can be blocked the same way fatecarver can also be blocked despite of being an AoE dot. That's probably intentional I guess.

DrNukenstein

Aiden_Ayzaria wrote: »

Mmmhh correct me if I'm wrong but Templar exec is blockable if I remember correctly. I know it's a single target dot channel but it can be blocked the same way fatecarver can also be blocked despite of being an AoE dot. That's probably intentional I guess.

I'm actually not 100% sure now that I think about it. Good thing they have javelin so they can beam you while you're on the floor/coming out of roll, or give you the ultimate reflex test with jav>meteor.

SandandStars

@DrNukenstein , are you suggesting that templars or magsorcs are basically equal and balanced against DKs and NBs because each class has something it excels at (like radiant oppression), or that because each class has different strengths/weakness it requires different playing styles, and this makes them even?

If so, I don’t see it that way.

I mean, if you don’t think NBs toolkit is superior to a magsorc or templar, I don’t know what to say to convince you.

CrazyKitty

SandandStars wrote: »

Do you sometimes worry that you might be playing against nightblades in PvP who don’t acknowledge the class is op and just think they’re really good?

Worry? No. It's just how it is.

NB's in PvP tend to feel like their class is the most picked on as well even though they are the most OP class in PvP right now.

DrNukenstein

I think mag sorcs have a better kit for body blocking, mobility, and timing simultaneous big hits. Stam sorc though is actually insane. I see that class getting ridiculous scores in BGs more than any other, and more consistently. The fact is the sorc kit is so powerful through skill expression that the kit can thrive with stuff that is objectively weaker on paper. I mean, if you go into Cyrodil or IC what are you more likely to see going on for 10+ minutes? A group chasing a streak spammer, or a group hunting down a cloak spammer

Templars have better self healing, more healing that they can share with their team, and a better minor buff. A templar is a better team mate to have than a nightblade hands down. Then they really do have a great attrition kit, on par with warden. I think toppling charge is the best gap closer for it's cc. They are very good at stalemating a fight, and then capitalizing on someone being stammed with the aforementioned jav and beam or waiting for friends to show up. Oh, they have easy acces to both expeditions too so they can potentially kite around effectively.

It doesn't make the classes wildly uneven. Uneven in different circumstances, but in the big picture not that far off from even. Like if you want to skulk around cyrodil/ic by yourself, of course nightblade is BIS for that, but in practice not that far off from sorc. If you want to put together the strongest four man you can have, it's not going to be four nightblades but you're going to want to pick 3 out of 4: warden, dk, templar, arcanist and depending on how your group wants to play sorc may be preferable to night blade.

And let's never forget to mention how bad necromancer has it. Every time I think about making one, I am stumped at how I could make it do anything that a different class couldn't do better and more intuitively.

Muizer

SandandStars wrote: »

Do you sometimes worry that you might be playing against nightblades in PvP who don’t acknowledge the class is op and just think they’re really good?

If I caught myself actually worrying about that I'd take that as a serious warning sign that my mental energy reserves are running low. If my head's in a good place, I would never worry about not getting validated by some rando in an online game. Time to take a step back and recharge.

SandandStars

^ mental health warrior ^
(and nightblade main)

Sluggy

DrNukenstein wrote: »

NB or DK- means playing another class with it's own tricks. Like how sorcs can hit with 3 skills in a gcd on demand, or how wardens can do the same thing but AOE, or how templars have the best execute in the game which is also unblockable and undodgeable. Those are just examples, it's not like each class only has one trick. Unless you play necro, which has no trick bag.

Undeath- If you aren't build to hold block and spam heals it will make it so you can take one more hit. If you are built to hold block and spam heals, I don't think undeath is the problem. It's biggest problem is that there is no opportunity cost aside from being a vampire.

Masters dw: Takes power out of the rest of your kit and moves it to dw dot skill. No cap: 10k pen, 7k weapon damage, 30k mag and I saw masters dw ticking for 964 on an oaken soul pulse spammer. That's not auto win pressure. That's just annoying. For the price of 2 slots, you can add at least 2 masters dw ticks worth of damage to your big hit.

Vat Staff: It's a back bar decision. Similar argument to masters dw, but competes with strong defense and sustain options that you would want single barred. Also, easily broken with LOS. Everytime I bust it out I remember that Plaguebreak back bar with ele-sus is way more reliable and better for setting up a Maarselok dunk.

Engine Guardian: Stupid carry set. Whenever I see a nerd with a robot, I go up to them, tap lock on button, bash and take their lunch money if they don't streak away. Still competes with Balorgh and Maarselok.

These are all prominent things in the meta right now, but crutches don't come with trade offs. Unlike pulse and bowblades who are truly experiencing a different game lately with their respectable ranged damage, easy dot application, and best in class safety with cloak and constant both expeditions used exclusively to get away as opposed to get to. What other playstyle consistently goes positive with less than 20k hp and one bar.

QFTAE

To collude with your opinions:

Vampire. You said it exactly. The biggest tradeoff with vamp has always been that your character looks kinda ugly. There needs to be more. The undeath passive is very strong but its only in combination with some many other things that it becomes 'broken'. In isolation it's not that powerful but it is basically free which is a problem. Just like the old vampire passive was free sustain this is free damage reduction.

Master Dual wield is a noob trap. I said it. It's not great. It's not even particularly good. It's okay on a tank that otherwise has no damage. It is not a win button. Not even close. Better results can be had with other sets that buff both rending slashes and every other tool in your kit.

Vate ice staff ain't bad. But it's not a win button either. The skill it relies on is loaded and would be decent even if just using any 5pc ice staff. The staff is just an obvious choice if you're willing to give up the 5pc backbar. A tradeoff, just like you said.

Engine Guardian. Yep. I agree again. Having used the set myself in the past I can say it's a nice way to work around shortcomings like less heals or sustain but it's not an instant win by itself. Not even close.

The real issues are coming from fundamental problems with mechanics in the game itself. One such example is damage reduction stacking. There's no single source that is overwhelmingly powerful but when stacking it becomes far too strong. The mechanics of diminishing the value of stacking needs to be reviewed. It would encourage people to consider other means of defense including strong offense so that they can push others away with counter attacks when pressured rather than just turtle up and heal.

Case in point: I ran into another one of those imortal IC builds yesterday that couldn't be harmed. I did a straight out PvE parse on them for maybe five minutes and never even came close to hurting them. They weren't even blocking. In fact they were afk most of the time just to show off. Only when they got low on health did they bother to heal. This is directly the result of stacking defenses that don't have significant diminishing returns. There's no reason for the to ever consider slotting a damage skill because they'll never have enough pressure to require it, which in turn means they don't need any kind of damage or active recovery since they aren't spamming skills, which then pushes them to continue stacking defense. It's a vicious cycle that is forcing them to just stack defense.

Skoomah

You guys are silly. I kill Nightblades all the time.

FoJul

IncultaWolf wrote: »

Just play necromancer, nobody will think they're good when they kill you. Meme class after all

Perfect xD....

SandandStars

Skoomah wrote: »

You guys are silly. I kill Nightblades all the time.

Me too. But they’re very inexperienced/new players. A skilled player on NB has no reason to die to another class unless they get zerged.

Oblivion_Protocol

IncultaWolf wrote: »

Just play necromancer, nobody will think they're good when they kill you. Meme class after all

Yeah, but the flip side of that is that when you kill people on a Necro, there’s an increased amount of hacking accusations, lol.

colossalvoids

SandandStars wrote: »

Skoomah wrote: »

You guys are silly. I kill Nightblades all the time.

But they’re very inexperienced/new players. A skilled player on NB has no reason to die to another class unless they get zerged.

Most players fall into this category of "very not experienced" by simply not running fotm build or playing more casually, despite pvping for years.

Balancing just around a circle of ten people isn't the answer to all the problems and certainly doesn't help in having a stable or even increasing population in PvP.

ZhuJiuyin

colossalvoids wrote: »

Most players fall into this category of "very not experienced" by simply not running fotm build or playing more casually, despite pvping for years.

Balancing just around a circle of ten people isn't the answer to all the problems and certainly doesn't help in having a stable or even increasing population in PvP.

Follow this logic, coupled with the latest statistics https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/647819/what-is-your-main/p1
Templar & Sorcerer will have priority to request balancing.
Abandoning a few people just because they are a minority? This is obviously not a good idea.

bachpain

SandandStars wrote: »

crutches i avoid: nb, dk, undeath, vatesh staff, masters dw, engine guardian

it’s just personal preference, i realize. i don’t get satisfaction from letting my class or gear win for me.

seems like maybe i’m playing the wrong game, yeah?

Or you are just too worried about other people's games? Game on regardless of class/race/gear!

LalMirchi

SandandStars wrote: »

crutches i avoid: nb, dk, undeath, vatesh staff, masters dw, engine guardian

it’s just personal preference, i realize. i don’t get satisfaction from letting my class or gear win for me.

seems like maybe i’m playing the wrong game, yeah?

So, @SandandStars What would your non-crutched ideal setup look like? What class or gear would give you satisfaction?

SandandStars

Right now I’m working on a templar that runs spinners, trial by fire, 1 kragh helm, 1 markyn ring. Have switched out war maiden for spinners trying to boost damage but spinners pen is needed, and wm doesn’t help crushing shock which is my msin spammsble. And I’d say thathat’s the part of the build thst’s struggling most- cs barely scratches ppl even w 19k pen and 5k sd, but the interrupt is key, and it’s one of the only ranged spammables that consistently lands for me in pvp.

Also working on a warden bow build with trial by fire and war maiden that uses elemental wespon on bow as spammable to be able to synergize with shalks magic dmg/war maiden. Having fun with this build but learning to use elemental weapon effectively in pvp has been challenging,

Veinblood1965

I started my NB about two years ago, last night I died for the first time(lag). On the plus side I have 2 million soul stones banked.

SandandStars

Hahaahaa! Nice! 😹

Good job on your invincible nb 😉

BXR_Lonestar

SandandStars wrote: »

Do you sometimes worry that you might be playing against nightblades in PvP who don’t acknowledge the class is op and just think they’re really good?

If you think they're OP, try playing one. You will see that a nightblade dies just like everything else. Their survivability tool is stealth, and if you run into even a small coordinated group using detect pots and you get careless, you are going to die.

When you catch a nightblade not in stealth, they die just as easy as any other class (maybe even easier) because they're built to hit and run, not to stand toe to toe and fight. I understand the arguments about them being OP, but in complete honesty, its not the class, its the player playing the class. I've seen some REALLY GOOD nightblade players and I've seen some really bad ones (myself being one of them). Often times the difference is just patience. Engage when terms are favorable to you, run away if/when the battle turns.

DK's, templars, and wardens are far and away much harder to kill than a nightblade that doesn't have a stealth advantage.

SaffronCitrusflower

BXR_Lonestar wrote: »

SandandStars wrote: »

Do you sometimes worry that you might be playing against nightblades in PvP who don’t acknowledge the class is op and just think they’re really good?

If you think they're OP, try playing one. You will see that a nightblade dies just like everything else. Their survivability tool is stealth, and if you run into even a small coordinated group using detect pots and you get careless, you are going to die.

When you catch a nightblade not in stealth, they die just as easy as any other class (maybe even easier) because they're built to hit and run, not to stand toe to toe and fight. I understand the arguments about them being OP, but in complete honesty, its not the class, its the player playing the class. I've seen some REALLY GOOD nightblade players and I've seen some really bad ones (myself being one of them). Often times the difference is just patience. Engage when terms are favorable to you, run away if/when the battle turns.

DK's, templars, and wardens are far and away much harder to kill than a nightblade that doesn't have a stealth advantage.

NB's have the strongest burst heal in the game. They also have the strongest burst damage in the game at the same time. They get major buffs just for stealthing up. I could go on, but no need.

NB's are grossly OP right now. That's why NB pops in cyrodiil are exploding these days.