Undeath Suggestion (safe and effective)

Solariken

Everyone knows Undeath is too strong, the only honest disagreement is what to do about it. The easiest, safest, low-hanging fruit suggestion is to just swap it with Unnatural Movement. So Unnatural Movement would be available at Stage 3 and Undeath would be available at Stage 4. At least then abusers of Undeath would have 0 health recovery and their heals/shields would cost a bit more.

Araneae6537

Would that help in PvP where the problem is? Health recovery is already reduced by battle spirit (I forget how much), so I’m not sure how much it contributes to the situations where Undeath is a problem. I don’t know how useful Undeath is for PvE tanks but I expect a total sacrifice of health recovery would be too high a price.

DrNukenstein

Yay, I like it

Classic "be careful what you wish for"

chessalavakia_ESO

You could test some of the impact the change would have by persuading a few of the Stage 3 vamps to swap to Stage 4 for a couple weeks.

Personally, I'm somewhat less supportive of the change than I was in the past.

First, I'm unsure if the change would actually lead to less complaints about vampires.

Second, I'm not really sure Undeath is really worthy of Stage 4 in non-PvP content.

Third, one of the other big PvP complaints is about DK players. Depending on how said change goes they might become more common which might lead to more complaints.

Fourth, I'm unsure if Undeath is actually the primary issue.

Sleep724

chessalavakia_ESO wrote: »

Fourth, I'm unsure if Undeath is actually the primary issue.

From someone who just went vamp for the first time since launch, undeath is definitely an issue. Now I dunno about it being a primary one. But it is such a carry in pvp. The amount of times I’ve been unable to get the kill using an execute ability when they’re below 10, 20% hp has been extremely frustrating. Now to be on the other side of it and now able to switch skills and/or sets to be more offensive. Should be nerfed down to 10-15%.

ItsNotLiving

Nay, I'll explain why

If you move undeath to stage 4 everyone will build more sustain or play a Breton and just go to stage 4, undeath is a huge issue ZoS has to look at. If you aren’t a vampire you are making yourself play at a huge disadvantage in PvP.

VinnyGambini

Nay, I'll explain why

100% No. This is straightforward buff for DK, way of fire, Zaan etc.

Good idea is to decrease undeath to 20% and also decrease fire dmg vulnerability 13% -> 3%. This way fire dmg users will stay neutral, but all others will receive 0 - 10% indirect buff. Also some players may abandon vampire completely, as 20% is not so huge, and sustain may be more welcome.

This is the real solution. Definetely NOT the one you suggest.

Vevvev

Make Unnatural Movement stage 3 you say? My favorite vampire passive and I can keep my HP regeneration? Be careful what you wish for as in the right hands it's stronger than you think, especially when in PvP it makes stamina efficiency for people who sprint a lot really nice.

Solariken

Yay, I like it

Vevvev wrote: »

Make Unnatural Movement stage 3 you say? My favorite vampire passive and I can keep my HP regeneration? Be careful what you wish for as in the right hands it's stronger than you think, especially when in PvP it makes stamina efficiency for people who sprint a lot really nice.

UM is strong yeah but remember, with my suggestion, you get HP recovery but you lose Undeath unless you go Stage 4.

Mansquito

It's a fair argument to make. However, I think these changes in isolation perhaps exacerbate issues elsewhere like class balance etc, so need to be made along with a raft of other balancing issues imo, else it might make some classes even more unviable than they already are and make some more OP than they already are.

SkaraMinoc

Nay, I'll explain why

There are many ways to deal with the penalties of Stage 4. Undeath itself needs a nerf.

mmtaniac

Nay, I'll explain why

It's too effective ,that much effective. No one can imagine to play without it it's that much effective so it's need that one word that every person hate NERF . Im user of this effective ability too and still ask for this word.

Danse_Mayhem

Nay, I'll explain why

I agree that it should be stage 4, but not at the cost of every class being able to just stealth whenever they want even easier

Aiden_Ayzaria

Why not simply reworking Undeath into an offensive bonus instead? Right now, the problem with Undeath is how it's saving people and making a lot of fight just unfinishable or way longer than it should be for a very low opportunity cost (it's very easy to sustain in nowadays meta even with vampirism cost increase penalty).
The idea would be to turn Undeath into something like "The lower you get, the more damage you get" (a % multiplier might be the best or even some penetration as I fear weapon damage or crit chance would also buff healing capabilities, only displacing the problem). Add the "while in combat tag" to limit abusive use from gankers. The passive would be more niche for sure as it's always risky to play in execute range but I feel this kind of high risk, high reward mechanic is way more engaging than "I just get harder to kill when I'm low". It would also have great synergy with the vampire kit which is overall hitting harder when low. At the same time, vampirism would be more punishing to play at high stage considering you won't have undeath mitigation to reduce the flame damage taken penalty.

i11ionward

Aiden_Ayzaria wrote: »

Why not simply reworking Undeath into an offensive bonus instead? Right now, the problem with Undeath is how it's saving people and making a lot of fight just unfinishable or way longer than it should be for a very low opportunity cost (it's very easy to sustain in nowadays meta even with vampirism cost increase penalty).
The idea would be to turn Undeath into something like "The lower you get, the more damage you get" (a % multiplier might be the best or even some penetration as I fear weapon damage or crit chance would also buff healing capabilities, only displacing the problem). Add the "while in combat tag" to limit abusive use from gankers. The passive would be more niche for sure as it's always risky to play in execute range but I feel this kind of high risk, high reward mechanic is way more engaging than "I just get harder to kill when I'm low". It would also have great synergy with the vampire kit which is overall hitting harder when low. At the same time, vampirism would be more punishing to play at high stage considering you won't have undeath mitigation to reduce the flame damage taken penalty.

We already have the offensive passive Strike from the Shadows, I'm sure ZOS won't add another attack passive.

Also ZOS doesn't add penalties to passive skills, all penalties are added to Feed.

Strangely enough, Undeath has a logical place in the Vampire's skill line, but I wish this passive was more interactive, for example

Hotdog_23

Minor protection above 50% health and major protection below 50% health.

Stay safe

Aiden_Ayzaria

i11ionward wrote: »

Aiden_Ayzaria wrote: »

Why not simply reworking Undeath into an offensive bonus instead? Right now, the problem with Undeath is how it's saving people and making a lot of fight just unfinishable or way longer than it should be for a very low opportunity cost (it's very easy to sustain in nowadays meta even with vampirism cost increase penalty).
The idea would be to turn Undeath into something like "The lower you get, the more damage you get" (a % multiplier might be the best or even some penetration as I fear weapon damage or crit chance would also buff healing capabilities, only displacing the problem). Add the "while in combat tag" to limit abusive use from gankers. The passive would be more niche for sure as it's always risky to play in execute range but I feel this kind of high risk, high reward mechanic is way more engaging than "I just get harder to kill when I'm low". It would also have great synergy with the vampire kit which is overall hitting harder when low. At the same time, vampirism would be more punishing to play at high stage considering you won't have undeath mitigation to reduce the flame damage taken penalty.

We already have the offensive passive Strike from the Shadows, I'm sure ZOS won't add another attack passive.

Also ZOS doesn't add penalties to passive skills, all penalties are added to Feed.

Strangely enough, Undeath has a logical place in the Vampire's skill line, but I wish this passive was more interactive, for example

True, but Strike from the shadow is very limited in its way to proc it. It fits more the niche of ambushing playstyle (mainly gankers) whereas my idea would fit more a bruiser niche.

Solariken

Yay, I like it

Hotdog_23 wrote: »

Minor protection above 50% health and major protection below 50% health.

Stay safe

I like this idea too. It gives vamps more set/skill combo options while reigning in the obscene benefits of the unique % mitigation.

i11ionward

Aiden_Ayzaria wrote: »

i11ionward wrote: »

Aiden_Ayzaria wrote: »

Why not simply reworking Undeath into an offensive bonus instead? Right now, the problem with Undeath is how it's saving people and making a lot of fight just unfinishable or way longer than it should be for a very low opportunity cost (it's very easy to sustain in nowadays meta even with vampirism cost increase penalty).
The idea would be to turn Undeath into something like "The lower you get, the more damage you get" (a % multiplier might be the best or even some penetration as I fear weapon damage or crit chance would also buff healing capabilities, only displacing the problem). Add the "while in combat tag" to limit abusive use from gankers. The passive would be more niche for sure as it's always risky to play in execute range but I feel this kind of high risk, high reward mechanic is way more engaging than "I just get harder to kill when I'm low". It would also have great synergy with the vampire kit which is overall hitting harder when low. At the same time, vampirism would be more punishing to play at high stage considering you won't have undeath mitigation to reduce the flame damage taken penalty.

We already have the offensive passive Strike from the Shadows, I'm sure ZOS won't add another attack passive.

Also ZOS doesn't add penalties to passive skills, all penalties are added to Feed.

Strangely enough, Undeath has a logical place in the Vampire's skill line, but I wish this passive was more interactive, for example

True, but Strike from the shadow is very limited in its way to proc it. It fits more the niche of ambushing playstyle (mainly gankers) whereas my idea would fit more a bruiser niche.

True. But I think vampire was originally intended as a niche skill line, not to be a must have for any PvP player.

gariondavey

Undeath - major protection below 50 percent and minor protection above 50 percent

React

Yay, I like it

Meant to vote no.

I'm all for any nerfs to undeath, but honestly this won't be enough. Sustain is near infinite in PVP right now for most people, the small additional cost increase from stage 4 won't offset the value of undeath at all. The flame damage & fighters guild damage is irrelevant as well.

I know it's not a huge factor, but swapping those passives also means giving unnatural movement to everybody - and this passive is very annoying given that it encourages people to just run away from fights.

Arcanists with 40k hp + shields and health sorcs are really exposing how broken undeath is - spamming shields on low HP with 30% mitigation is absurd. I hope the devs will do something soon, because in my nearly 10 years playing this game I have never seen a worse meta than the one we currently have.

CameraBeardThePirate

Nay, I'll explain why

Just nerf the passive itself. Like React said, moving it to stage 4 won't be enough to stop people from running it. Wretched Vitality still exists, and that's all the sustain anyone could ever need.

The entire reason they updated vampire was so that people wouldn't be running it for a single passive (the sustain passive that vamp used to have). They removed that passive, but for some reason decided to buff Vampire's other passives, completely defeating the purpose of the rework.

Might as well throw Undeath's effect on Mist Form and just completely rework the passive into something else. Anyone that remotely knows what they're doing in PvP can see just how busted undeath is.

Giving people easier access to invisibility is also not a good idea. You'll just see more people running away from every fight.

Solariken

Yay, I like it

It's honestly pretty incredible ZOS hasn't lifted a finger to address this meta. Nerfing this one passive would be an enormous balance improvement.

Solariken

Yay, I like it

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

Just nerf the passive itself. Like React said, moving it to stage 4 won't be enough to stop people from running it. Wretched Vitality still exists, and that's all the sustain anyone could ever need.

The entire reason they updated vampire was so that people wouldn't be running it for a single passive (the sustain passive that vamp used to have). They removed that passive, but for some reason decided to buff Vampire's other passives, completely defeating the purpose of the rework.

Might as well throw Undeath's effect on Mist Form and just completely rework the passive into something else. Anyone that remotely knows what they're doing in PvP can see just how busted undeath is.

Giving people easier access to invisibility is also not a good idea. You'll just see more people running away from every fight.

I fully agree with this however ZOS seems completely unwilling to nerf it outright. I was shooting for this small compromise that I still think would be a net positive for balance.

Araneae6537

What about remove Undeath completely and give vampires better health recovery? Isn’t that more in line with typical vampire abilities and would be useful in PVE but of little benefit in PVP?

EDIT: After looking at another thread discussing the viability of vampire builds for PVE, I don’t think the Undeath passive is at all useful there.

I would like to see a return to the pre-Greymoor vampire, with advantages just scaled down for PVP. Most of the utility has been removed from skills such as blood mist so that being a vampire is purely downside in group PVE (they make good thieves and assassins is about all that’s left to them) and yet is still problematic in PVP for this one passive.

CameraBeardThePirate

Nay, I'll explain why

Araneae6537 wrote: »

What about remove Undeath completely and give vampires better health recovery? Isn’t that more in line with typical vampire abilities and would be useful in PVE but of little benefit in PVP?

This could be interesting and would likely be less OP - giving them more health recovery as their health gets lower.

Solariken

Yay, I like it

Araneae6537 wrote: »

What about remove Undeath completely and give vampires better health recovery? Isn’t that more in line with typical vampire abilities and would be useful in PVE but of little benefit in PVP?

I'd be onboard with that.

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

Araneae6537 wrote: »

What about remove Undeath completely and give vampires better health recovery? Isn’t that more in line with typical vampire abilities and would be useful in PVE but of little benefit in PVP?

This could be interesting and would likely be less OP - giving them more health recovery as their health gets lower.

And that.

Arcanasx

Nay, I'll explain why

They could try making undeath scale depending on how many vampire abilities are slotted on your bar. Each ability could provide up to 5% scaling mitigation. So one bar full of vampire abilities would be up to 30% mitigation, which the vast majority of current vampire undeath players won't commit to.

This would also incentivize vampire players to play as...vampires...which was what the greymoor re-vamp was supposed to do in making vampire gameplay a more conscious decision rather than a mindless extra passives buff.

Turtle_Bot

Nay, I'll explain why

Make it into the named protection buffs:
- Minor above 70% health (5% mitigation)
- Major above 30% health (10% mitigation)
- Both when below 30% (15% mitigation)

This effectively halves the maximum mitigation it gives while also preventing it from stacking with other sources of the protection buff.

can tweak the numbers around to easily balance it as well:
Still too strong, make the "both" part trigger below 20%.
Too weak, make the "both" part trigger at 35% or 40%.

Most classes already have 1 of the named protection buffs too, so it is even more of a nerf to undeath if they already get one (or both) of the protection buffs and will encourage some real choices in building instead of just be vamp stage 3, now pick your class from DK, NB or Masters DW + Vate frost.

finehair

Yay, I like it

Make it so that the damage reduction doesn't affect flame damage at all. Also increase flame damage taken by a lot, like A LOT that people would think twice when fighting against a magdk or a random guy with an inferno staff

Araneae6537

Arcanasx wrote: »

They could try making undeath scale depending on how many vampire abilities are slotted on your bar. Each ability could provide up to 5% scaling mitigation. So one bar full of vampire abilities would be up to 30% mitigation, which the vast majority of current vampire undeath players won't commit to.

This would also incentivize vampire players to play as...vampires...which was what the greymoor re-vamp was supposed to do in making vampire gameplay a more conscious decision rather than a mindless extra passives buff.

No, if they want people to use the abilities, then they need to actually be useful in combat. The more I’ve read of the discussion of this skill, the more I think Undeath should just be removed. Taking health from one’s enemies makes sense, but the current skill to do that is rather bad.