Conflicting advice for MagDK

SmellyUnlimited

I’m relatively new at MagDK PvP, and trying to put together a cohesive build. I can craft anything, and I’ve got a ton of alliance points I can use to buy equipment. Right now I’m running mechanical acuity front bar and wretched vitality backbar, with dual wield axes front and s&b back (using pierce to proc wretched). I’m doing mediocre at best. I’m using the shadow mundus. Oh, I also just picked up marcath’s ring, so I’m guessing I’ll need to fit a piece of trainee gear in somewhere.

Front bar: molten whip, flame breath, searing strike, flames of oblivion, the stun/heal, and leap. Back bar: coagulating blood, race against time, elusive mist, spiked armor, and corrosive armor.

I’d like something I could run in cyrodil and BG’s, and maybe imperial city. If IC needs a different gear set I understand, as mixing in PvE likely needs different strategies. I’ve looked at Alcast’s, Deltia’s, and Dottz’s builds, but I don’t know if I’m skilled enough to pull those off yet. Need something perhaps more “user friendly”

OBJnoob

First things first. Do NOT use Mechanical Acuity with the Malacath Band.

Second of all... Find room on your bar for Vigor (a powerful stamina heal from the Assault Skills Line) and morph it to Resolving Vigor when ready.

Third of all... I think you should mix your bars up a bit. It SEEMS wise to put all your Ardent Flame abilities on your front bar for Molten Whip but it doesn't leave you with much else to work with. Personally I use Race Against Time on my front bar. Otherwise it's hard to stick with a target.

SmellyUnlimited

Okay, so mechanical acuity is out. Do you have recommendations on sets to switch in? I’ve heard everything from BSW, essence thief, rallying cry, daedric trickery, and a few other odds and ends. I’m trying to save my limited budget to a set that I can buy prismatic runes for and use but not break the bank on something that turns out to be worthless

SmellyUnlimited

Oh, and I’m using bloodspawn as a monster set. I’ve been gone from the game for 4ish years so haven’t gotten back into a guild yet to run the new vet dungeons to get Balorghs

MidniteOwl1913

I like Elfs Bane it adds 5 sec damage to all flame abilities (not channeled). It also works with Magma shell.

(2 items) Adds 1096 Maximum Magicka
(3 items) Adds 129 Weapon and Spell Damage
(4 items) Adds 129 Weapon and Spell Damage
(5 items) While in combat, increases the duration of your Flame Damage over Time abilities by 5 seconds. This effect does not work with beam or channeled effects.

Sleep724

Blood spawn monster set.
Burning Spell Weave as your damage set. Or essence thief or rallying cry.
Deadric trickery for your back bar for something more defensive or keep wretched for the sustain.
Markyn ring or if you can figure out how to deal with the snare, Sea-Serpents.
Stage 3 vamp for the undeath passive.

gariondavey

Mech acuity dk is very strong but also difficult to play
You'd be better off with a build like this
Bloodspawn 2pc
Daedric trickery back bar with powered ice staff and 350 wd enchant
Elf bane front bar dw, 1 nirn mace 1 decisive mace, 1 poison glyph 1 diseased glyph
1 death dealers fete or 1 markyn
1 trainee

4 reinforced heavy (chest + pants + boots + shoulders)
2 impen or well fitted or sturdy light (gloves + belt)
1 impen or well fitted or sturdy med (helm)

Jewels all infused or bloodthirsty, all with spell damage enchants

Atro mundas
Jewels of misrule food

Flame breath, molten whip, flames of oblivion, burning talons, shattering rocks, magma shell

Dk damage reducing wings or race against time or if you are ok with limited mobility (kite game strong) then slap on ele sus, resolving vigor, coag, igneous weapons or mages guild skill that gives major brutality / sorcery, hardened armor, leap (mag version with shield) or ice comet or any ult of choice but keep in mind magma shell should be used almost always and you should have very high uptimes in it

Use mag + stam + minor heroism pots

There are many other very strong dk builds as well such as m dw + dragon's appetite + 2 trainee + vate destro + maarselok

FoJul

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoBuildEditor?id=586325

Magicka DK build...really stronk, want more of an OW build replace way of fire with Kynemarcher or Daedrick Trickery.

Can also use bloodspawn over zaan.

Can also use Markyn or pale order over malacath.

SmellyUnlimited

All good recommendations. I think adding vigor backbar sounds good. I guess I can drop wretched vitality and just sustain through my ulti and pots in order to use a second set for damage as well, though not sure how my sustain will be. Part of me is a little skeptical of Daedric Trickery’s “luck based” roll of whatever major buff you happen to get, but then again most of them are good so maybe that isn’t a problem. I also am seeing some folks run noxious breath on a magicka build instead of flame, which I’m guessing for major breach? The general feeling I’m getting is this class has become VERY hybridy.

fred4

Trickery, like Bloodspawn, includes ulti-gen. That's why DKs run it. The other buffs also don't overlap with anything DK already has, so it's all good. Does it make you consistently tanky? Nope. It just feels good when your ultimates come back quicker on that class.

Balorgh is questionable on a DK. Corrosive Armor gives full penetration to your direct damage anyway and DKs tend to use their ultimates offensively, defensively, and for sustain, whereas Balorgh is mainly just an offensive tool. It can work, but it can go to waste, and it's a sustain loss, which indirectly nerfs your damage on a DK as you may need to find sustain elsewhere. It's just not the clear win on that class as it is on, say, a nightblade.

I'm surprised by two recommendations for Elf Bane, because DOTs already last super long these days and can be purged. This ain't PvE, this is PvP. IMO the only reason to consider Elf Bane is to buff fire-based siege weapons (if that still works) and to extend Magma Shell to 18s, to which I would say only do it, if you want to go all out on a (near) perma-Magma Shell build, such as with the ulti-gen vamp drain, maybe Bloodspawn, Major Heroism + Minor Heroism, possibly with Oakensoul and the new DK set from Endless Archive. That might make for an easy-play build. Otherwise use Corrosive Armor, no Elf Bane and, well, learn to play. That will probably serve you better in the long run.

One issue everyone has as a beginner, or even just when playing a new build, is adjusting your expectations. I've played with some good players, players who are better than me, and been frequently surprised how carefully they play. Yes, they kill people, but they also run, and line-of-sight, and try to bait people into favorable situations. In fact, they may spend most of their time doing that and then only show you the highlight reel on YouTube. As a tanky melee class you favor built-up terrain, rocks and trees where you can line-of-sight. You may want to bait other players into, say, the ubiquitous resource tower where Streak loses some of it's effectiveness and where nightblades without Shadow Image have no place to hide from you.

SmellyUnlimited

I’ve been running Trickery with Orders Wrath (only because I don’t have rallying cry icestaff). I started farming for Essence Thief since I’d heard that could be good to pair with Trickery for the stamina gain (which I run out of often using noxious breath/vigor, and dodge/sprinting). Also heard BSW body pieces could work with dual wield weapons. Just trying to find something to replace Orders Wrath. I’ve been running Markyn + trainee also, but I’ve heard sea serpents coil is better for DK. So much stuff to farm lol. Just trying to find a competitive build without having to farm for hours on end to acquire the pieces I need.

fred4

Essence Thief is known as a duelling set. I wouldn't run it in open world, nor in BGs. You might make it work, but you won't make your life easy wearing that set IMO.

Sea Serpent puts a big snare on you. You're going to love it or hate it. I still see it a fair bit. When you see Sea Serpent with, say, Master dual wield, a Vateshran ice staff, Marselok and, say, Way of Fire (or Dragon's Appetite) for good measure, you know you're dealing with the most toxic, tryhard meta player. I don't know whether that would work or be necessary on a DK - it strikes me more like a stamsorc setup - and I don't know whether all of that is still meta, but anyway, there you go. Personally I hate the big snare.

IMO many people are so tanky these days, you have to pick fights you can win and leave it at that. I favor mobility. Even when I'm on DK, I like Race Against Time, all Swift jewelry, and I even have one setup with Jailbreaker for good measure. Normally, though, I'm more like you. Bloodspawn, Trickery ice staff or 1H+S back bar, damage set front bar, 1x Trainee and, oh yeah, Wild Hunt, cause you know, speed. It doesn't win you any prizes, but it's fun! I'm also more of a stam DK, but I don't PvP with that character often, these days. I'm not the best person to take advice from for DK, not for a complete build at least. You know my opinions on magblade. That's my PvP main.

IZZEFlameLash

I've ran Essence Thief before. It is quite nice. It is annoying at times to chase that green pool though. As that pool sometimes like to spawn beneath you if you are on the edge of a elevated platform or straight up unable to pick up because that zerg to end all zergs has claimed the area that pool spawned in.

SmellyUnlimited

Do you have any recommendations on a damage set to wear instead of Orders Wrath? I’m finding it fairly underwhelming for PvP. Essence thief I thought would be nice, especially for the 10% increased damage, but you both make a good point about having to chase the green pools. I’m also wondering why Ice staff is so in demand on the backbar as opposed to other staves? The builds I see recommending it say not to put points into the Destro Staff skill that makes blocking use magicka with it, so it seems really like any staff would do (or S&B even seems better).

fred4

Ice staff on the back bar is almost as good as 1H+S. It shares most of the same passives, e.g. for reduced block cost and increased mitigation. Try blocking for any length of time without those passives in PvP. Errr, good luck.

You don't generally want to use magicka for blocking. As a mag DK you have invested into magicka regen. Blocking cuts off that regen. Your burst heal is also magicka. You don't want to block with the same resource as your very expensive burst heal.

Finally ice staff allows you to run Elemental Suscepetibility and that's just a nasty skill for the status effects. You could front bar that, if you front bar a destro, but people who don't have that may use an ice staff back bar and, indeed, a Vateshran ice staff.

fred4

You got to have a build concept. Here's a DK I just theory-crafted. I have no idea whether it works:

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoBuildData?id=590211

The idea is to DOT people up as quickly as possible and make them melt:

• Ferocious Leap or Chains of Devastation applies Bleeding and Hemorrhaging to either a group or a single target. Rather than as an execute, you can use Leap as an opener.
• It gets you close to apply Burning Embers to one target, dealing Flame damage and applying Burning.
• Switch to the front bar and apply Noxious Breath as well as the poison enchant with a high chance of Poisoned status due to Charged weapon.
• All those little DOTs are buffed by Dragon's Appetite. Hemorrhaghing, Burning and Poisoned are the strongest status effects that don't just debuff the enemy, but deal actual damage. We have Flame, Poison and Bleed damage ticking as well, and we're hitting people with Flames of Oblivion.
• Either Noxious Breath or Flames of Oblivion can be used as a pseudo spammable.
• Stun people with Shattering Rocks offensively or defensively. It's just so nasty and it's for the Minor Brutality.

You heal or shield at almost every possible opportunity:

• Ferocious Leap shields you.
• Burning Embers heals you.
• Shattering Rocks heals you.
• Buffing with Rally heals you.
• Vigor heals you.
• Coag heals you.
• Dragon's Appetite heals you.
• Protective Plate reduces damage.
• Finally there's Corrosive Armor.

SmellyUnlimited

Does bleed damage include any DOT? I thought it was a specific type of martial DOT, like Carve or Rending Slashes. My build currently has more magicka, but looks like you’re recommending more stam (which would help with my sustain).

Necrotech_Master

not all bleed dmg is a dot, it is just a type of dmg (considered "martial" which encompasses bleed, poison, disease, and physical)

carve for example does direct dmg which is of type bleed, and then applies a dot which is also bleed dmg

i would also not recommend the malacath ring either unless you had extremely low crit chance, it used to be quite a bit better before it was nerfed (it used to be +25% dmg done with downside of 0 crits ever, the current functionality is +16% dmg with downside of -50% crit dmg)

i dont remember the exact rough calculation estimate for how much crit malacath would be able to replace, in a sense

fred4

Honestly, I'm not recommending anything. I made a stam / hybrid DK, because I've always played a stam DK and I've been thinking of taking that armor set combo into PvP. Been using it in Endless Archive, but those are really PvP sets.

Carve, Rending Slashes and Unleashed Terror are all bleed DOTs (and/or direct bleed damage). Those DOTs can all proc the Hemorrhaging status effect, however what's unique about Unleashed, and why it's so nasty, is that it applies the status effect guaranteed and reapplies it on every DOT tick of the bleed, which lasts for 10 seconds. Normally status effects only last for 4 or 6 seconds and only have a proc chance. Furthermore you can apply both the bleed and status effect using AOE gap closers, like Leap, dotting up everyone with two effects, the bleed and the status effect. It's a pretty nasty set.

My point is that you have to learn all the ins and outs of why something works, how sets and skills and weapon traits interact.
For example all the damage ticks are really small, but there is lots of them and we're adding 225 damage, or so, to every single one via Dragon's Appetite. Hitting targets this way is nasty. Nightblades don't purge anymore by default (Cloak used to purge long ago). Sorcs can't purge and have trouble healing DOT damage away. Other DKs, using Corrosive, will still be hit hard by this type of build, because it's many instances of small damage that fly under the 3% Corrosive health cap. Corrosive only really mitigates the big hits.

Or so the theory goes. Like I said, the build is completely untested, but you got to have a build idea. You can try this one or develop your own. You might be better off using a tested build from a reputable source, a friend who you actually know in game and who is a strong PvPer perhaps. It may also be the case that you just need more PvP experience, but on the other hand throwing random meta items together with non-synergising sets, skills, or traits, probably won't cut it either. You got to have a build philosophy and a rotation in mind. For example the big attraction to me of the above build would be that it should facilitate using Leap as an opener / gap closer, where I've previously only used it as an execute. With Leap also serving to DOT people up and using the shielding version, I think this could turn out much more flexible than my previous builds.

Basically I recommend you take a build wholesale from a person you trust or you develop your own. It's frustrating for me, for example, that people take bits and pieces of my nightblade build without understanding the cloak sustain, why Wretched Vitality doesn't work for it, and so on. You either got to understand the build or take it whole and precisely. Same food. Same potions. When it's a fully developed build that someone else actually plays. Not my above DK build. Like I said, that one is untested, but take it as an illustration of how to think about a PvP build. You use Dragon's Appetite, you want to go hard into lots of small damage effects that are proportionally boosted a good bit higher by that set. I'm also telling you the advantages of this type of build, which I hope are not complete BS. So that's what my post is. Just an illustration of how you might build and why, without guaranteeing anything. If you have Unleashed, great. If you need to farm it ... ehhh. The other sets are easy to get and the mythic is flexible, but then again Dragon's Appetite and Unleashed are kind of a package.

SmellyUnlimited

Actually I’m using Markyn, the one that just ups your weapon/spell dmg based on number of sets you’re wearing. Malacath looked pretty trashy to me with removing all crit chance. I’d totally missed the part in the previous build with Unleashed, which now I understand why using chains and leap creates such a strong dot (with the other flame dots adding to Dragon’s Appetite). I wish there was a more cost-effective way of trying out cool theorycrafted builds other than the large time/resource expenditure of farming/crafting everything from scratch.

Necrotech_Master

malacath doesnt entirely remove crit chance now, it only removes crit dmg (and only -50%)

back originally when it removed all crit chance, it would also prevent crit healing too, so it was changed to just be -crit dmg, so your crits still functions, they just wont hit as hard (and it wont block crit healing)

fred4

SmellyUnlimited wrote: »

I’d totally missed the part in the previous build with Unleashed, which now I understand why using chains and leap creates such a strong dot (with the other flame dots adding to Dragon’s Appetite).

One could also try the other morph of chains. Pull players into your group or get the magicka refund when they can't be pulled. Combine that with Elemental Susceptibility or, perhaps, Crushing Shock and you could make this a ranged, staff-based build. Who knows what will actually play well in the end. The point of such a build might be that the skills are really cheap.

fred4

SmellyUnlimited wrote: »

I wish there was a more cost-effective way of trying out cool theorycrafted builds other than the large time/resource expenditure of farming/crafting everything from scratch.

It's called the PTS, if you can find a duelling partner.

As for me, I have farmed almost the entire stickerbook and am sitting on 3.5K transmutes. I made it my business to do exactly that and only that. I don't do housing or go after achievements or farm skins. I like making builds. Even then, it usually takes hours to get a build ready and I have a Hakeijo addiction that requires upkeep. It may take me a while before I get around to testing the above, if I ever do.

SmellyUnlimited

fred4 wrote: »

SmellyUnlimited wrote: »

I wish there was a more cost-effective way of trying out cool theorycrafted builds other than the large time/resource expenditure of farming/crafting everything from scratch.

It's called the PTS, if you can find a duelling partner.

As for me, I have farmed almost the entire stickerbook and am sitting on 3.5K transmutes. I made it my business to do exactly that and only that. I don't do housing or go after achievements or farm skins. I like making builds. Even then, it usually takes hours to get a build ready and I have a Hakeijo addiction that requires upkeep. It may take me a while before I get around to testing the above, if I ever do.

Sadly I’m on PS5 with no PTS. Guess I better get to IC and start using the Magblade build you gave me to start farming tel var lol. I just don’t know where to keep all this gear I find. I just learned about the sticker book and saw you can recreate items, but for 75 transmutes. Looks like I have a lot of farming to do.

Necrotech_Master

SmellyUnlimited wrote: »

fred4 wrote: »

SmellyUnlimited wrote: »

I wish there was a more cost-effective way of trying out cool theorycrafted builds other than the large time/resource expenditure of farming/crafting everything from scratch.

It's called the PTS, if you can find a duelling partner.

As for me, I have farmed almost the entire stickerbook and am sitting on 3.5K transmutes. I made it my business to do exactly that and only that. I don't do housing or go after achievements or farm skins. I like making builds. Even then, it usually takes hours to get a build ready and I have a Hakeijo addiction that requires upkeep. It may take me a while before I get around to testing the above, if I ever do.

Sadly I’m on PS5 with no PTS. Guess I better get to IC and start using the Magblade build you gave me to start farming tel var lol. I just don’t know where to keep all this gear I find. I just learned about the sticker book and saw you can recreate items, but for 75 transmutes. Looks like I have a lot of farming to do.

recreation cost is based on how many items of the set you collected (75 cost with only 1 item of the set collected from a set with more than 1 item, down to 25 cost with the whole set collected)

SmellyUnlimited

Oh, very good to know! Do you know if it accounts for gear you deconstructed “prior” to the Stickerbook’s introduction? I farmed a LOT from when the game came out to 2018, then took a hiatus and just came back. I suspect the stickerbook likely doesn’t cover the period before it was created.

fred4

The cost goes down to 25 transmutes when you have every piece of an armor set farmed. You also get 25 back out, if you deconstruct such a piece (other than mythics, which you can't decon). You break even. Your only real costs are Hakeijos, Kutas and gold (weapon) materials.

You generally don't keep gear. You deconstruct it, so it ends up in the stickerbook. I only keep gold jewelry, gold non-staff / non-bow weapons (Rosin is cheap) and Hakeijo-enchanted gear now. That said, you do need housing storage, probably still best bought with writ vouchers, not Tel Var. Tel Var are too valuable.

My transmutes come almost exclusively from making 25K AP in Cyro every month, on 9 characters. The x50 geodes are character bound. I keep them on a mule character. Other people do different stuff. Most probably do the random daily normal dungeon.

If you were serious about dungeon farming, I'd recommend making a taunting tank / DD hybrid. You need to test that in normal March of Sacrifices to make sure it's tanky enough. Once you got the build right, you will be able to carry any random normal group. I recommend the Tormentor set, which taunts everything by gap closing with Stampede or Explosive Charge. Your queue times will be instant as a tank. Your success will be guaranteed, because normal dungeons are easy and you can solo them, if necessary. The group is basically there for you to do them faster. Nothing better than finding a group with 100K+ DPS. Sadly that's rare...

fred4

SmellyUnlimited wrote: »

Oh, very good to know! Do you know if it accounts for gear you deconstructed “prior” to the Stickerbook’s introduction? I farmed a LOT from when the game came out to 2018, then took a hiatus and just came back. I suspect the stickerbook likely doesn’t cover the period before it was created.

If you still had the items and deconstructed them now, that would work. Otherwise, not.

taugrim

fred4 wrote: »

Essence Thief is known as a duelling set. I wouldn't run it in open world, nor in BGs. You might make it work, but you won't make your life easy wearing that set IMO.

^ This, so much.

I tried Essence Thief several weeks ago when the ring was selling on The Golden.

I found Essence Thief to be incredibly frustrating to use. Having to pick up the green glowing thing on the ground was not only tedious and would force me to go to a spot I don't want to go (e.g. because the fight is moving in the opposite direction). Even worse: sometimes it would spawn on areas that were unreachable or at a different Z-axis (elevation).

gariondavey

fred4 wrote: »

Trickery, like Bloodspawn, includes ulti-gen. That's why DKs run it. The other buffs also don't overlap with anything DK already has, so it's all good. Does it make you consistently tanky? Nope. It just feels good when your ultimates come back quicker on that class.

Balorgh is questionable on a DK. Corrosive Armor gives full penetration to your direct damage anyway and DKs tend to use their ultimates offensively, defensively, and for sustain, whereas Balorgh is mainly just an offensive tool. It can work, but it can go to waste, and it's a sustain loss, which indirectly nerfs your damage on a DK as you may need to find sustain elsewhere. It's just not the clear win on that class as it is on, say, a nightblade.

I'm surprised by two recommendations for Elf Bane, because DOTs already last super long these days and can be purged. This ain't PvE, this is PvP. IMO the only reason to consider Elf Bane is to buff fire-based siege weapons (if that still works) and to extend Magma Shell to 18s, to which I would say only do it, if you want to go all out on a (near) perma-Magma Shell build, such as with the ulti-gen vamp drain, maybe Bloodspawn, Major Heroism + Minor Heroism, possibly with Oakensoul and the new DK set from Endless Archive. That might make for an easy-play build. Otherwise use Corrosive Armor, no Elf Bane and, well, learn to play. That will probably serve you better in the long run.

One issue everyone has as a beginner, or even just when playing a new build, is adjusting your expectations. I've played with some good players, players who are better than me, and been frequently surprised how carefully they play. Yes, they kill people, but they also run, and line-of-sight, and try to bait people into favorable situations. In fact, they may spend most of their time doing that and then only show you the highlight reel on YouTube. As a tanky melee class you favor built-up terrain, rocks and trees where you can line-of-sight. You may want to bait other players into, say, the ubiquitous resource tower where Streak loses some of it's effectiveness and where nightblades without Shadow Image have no place to hide from you.

Elfbane is very strong for a brawling dk. Ifykyk.

fred4

gariondavey wrote: »

fred4 wrote: »

Trickery, like Bloodspawn, includes ulti-gen. That's why DKs run it. The other buffs also don't overlap with anything DK already has, so it's all good. Does it make you consistently tanky? Nope. It just feels good when your ultimates come back quicker on that class.

Balorgh is questionable on a DK. Corrosive Armor gives full penetration to your direct damage anyway and DKs tend to use their ultimates offensively, defensively, and for sustain, whereas Balorgh is mainly just an offensive tool. It can work, but it can go to waste, and it's a sustain loss, which indirectly nerfs your damage on a DK as you may need to find sustain elsewhere. It's just not the clear win on that class as it is on, say, a nightblade.

I'm surprised by two recommendations for Elf Bane, because DOTs already last super long these days and can be purged. This ain't PvE, this is PvP. IMO the only reason to consider Elf Bane is to buff fire-based siege weapons (if that still works) and to extend Magma Shell to 18s, to which I would say only do it, if you want to go all out on a (near) perma-Magma Shell build, such as with the ulti-gen vamp drain, maybe Bloodspawn, Major Heroism + Minor Heroism, possibly with Oakensoul and the new DK set from Endless Archive. That might make for an easy-play build. Otherwise use Corrosive Armor, no Elf Bane and, well, learn to play. That will probably serve you better in the long run.

One issue everyone has as a beginner, or even just when playing a new build, is adjusting your expectations. I've played with some good players, players who are better than me, and been frequently surprised how carefully they play. Yes, they kill people, but they also run, and line-of-sight, and try to bait people into favorable situations. In fact, they may spend most of their time doing that and then only show you the highlight reel on YouTube. As a tanky melee class you favor built-up terrain, rocks and trees where you can line-of-sight. You may want to bait other players into, say, the ubiquitous resource tower where Streak loses some of it's effectiveness and where nightblades without Shadow Image have no place to hide from you.

Elfbane is very strong for a brawling dk. Ifykyk.

Can you explain how / why that is for the benefit of everyone?