Carrying CP300-800 inexperienced baby tank in the Vet DLC dungeon as healer is almost impossible.

AvalonRanger

Carrying CP300-800 inexperienced baby tank in the Vet DLC dungeon as healer is almost impossible.

Simply they're too much weak. My magika resource dried out so fast because of baby tank.
I can't heal DD because of baby tank. We will be wiped definitely.

Maybe, their building style and tactical are wrong. Not just CP amount matter.
(I've seen many of high CP useless glass tank, not only CP amount matter. )
Believe me, I'm tank main.

Sometimes, I feel "fast leaving penalty" is nonsense.

Soarora

As they say, a healer can’t heal 1-shots. Tank should always have a health-scaling self-heal and plenty of resists and decent resource management.

BlackRaidho

Don't act like you never learn something by doing it enough to master it.

tincanman

300+ cp is ok for dlc tank, but they are missing some mitigation of dmg.

I usually suggest lower cp tanks build exclusively for 'selfish' maximally resistant survivability (high resist, basically - high health is a handy buffer to an extent). Self-heal and buffs(resolve), of course; tri-pots if they have them or generic health potions (or other attribute pots) if not. Slotting revealing flare from alliance skill line for major protection, if available/psijiic shield passive, barrier, bone shield etc. They should not be afraid to kite ( a little) if under pressure - no need to stand in red when a side-step or backing off fixes that; knowledge of mechanics is helpful.

dlc dungeon 1-shots are what make healers somewhat redundant in that context, unfortunately.

But any tank I've seen that drains healer resources like that usually has too little 'armour' resistances.

If it's a known group you can chat (and laugh ) about it - pugs, not sure if pre-emptive chat would work?

Hopefully the new group finder will help those who find the need to leave early doesn't incur a queue penalty.

valenwood_vegan

Seems like pretty much no one in random dungeons lives up to OP's standards? Might find more enjoyment with a group of like-minded and similarly skilled players. Hope the new group finder is helpful with this.

TybaltKaine

Did you talk to them, try to help at all, or did you just come here to post about another "bad" player?

AvalonRanger

tincanman wrote: »

300+ cp is ok for dlc tank, but they are missing some mitigation of dmg.

I usually suggest lower cp tanks build exclusively for 'selfish' maximally resistant survivability (high resist, basically - high health is a handy buffer to an extent). Self-heal and buffs(resolve), of course; tri-pots if they have them or generic health potions (or other attribute pots) if not. Slotting revealing flare from alliance skill line for major protection, if available/psijiic shield passive, barrier, bone shield etc. They should not be afraid to kite ( a little) if under pressure - no need to stand in red when a side-step or backing off fixes that; knowledge of mechanics is helpful.

dlc dungeon 1-shots are what make healers somewhat redundant in that context, unfortunately.

But any tank I've seen that drains healer resources like that usually has too little 'armour' resistances.

If it's a known group you can chat (and laugh ) about it - pugs, not sure if pre-emptive chat would work?

Hopefully the new group finder will help those who find the need to leave early doesn't incur a queue penalty.

Agree. I think this is the best opinion.

AvalonRanger

TybaltKaine wrote: »

Did you talk to them, try to help at all, or did you just come here to post about another "bad" player?

"did you just come here to post about another "bad" player?"

NO.

Low CP means not so experienced player usually. I know that.
But, CP amount is not all of them for becoming nice player.

I want to tell for the lowbie that crafting and basic tactics are more important
than just boring XP farming. If you have high CP, but doesn't have decent combat tactical
knowledge, then you're forever meaningless.

I've seen few of strong lowbie player through the PUG mission.
I've been tank main player from CP 300, train my self at the HarrowStorm in Skyrim as tank,
and have been searching tactical and good gear.
There're much of good ESO tutorial in the internet. Just lean and do it.

[snip]
[edited for trolling]

AvalonRanger

Now, please remind this.

Basically, tank is protector for the DD and healer.
Don't be protected by DD and healer. Just DON'T.

Please, "DON'T make other role "your baby sitter" as tank.

In only few mechanics of DLC dungeon, tank needs minimum healing support,
but basically, tank should be self sufficient player.

This is basic.

Araneae6537

As long as they don’t get one shot and are trying to do the job, I view it as mine to keep them alive and am happy to take on the challenge and to be needed and appreciated as a healer!

M0ntie

If the tank isn't up to the job, initiate a vote kick. The dps should be able to see that the tank is dying all the time inspite of being healed.

AvalonRanger

If tank can't do dragon tanking of Elsweyr without healer support,
then should not do Vet dungeon tanking. Otherwise you will kill every your ally.

Baby tank is literary "milk drinker" like the Nord said. No thanks.

Suck up my every 30K magika pool as direct healing only for the tank within 30sec,
and let me drink much of my hand made magika potion, but can't survive just 1 min.

Not tank anymore, It like the magika resource vampire.

I can't heal DD at all in those situation. DD died, because couldn't receive healing.
I died, because tank can't survive just 1min, and got heavy attack from the boss.

Sigh...well, ZOS had better remove "quick leaving penalty". This is not fair.

BlackRaidho

Trust me, you don't want "Quick leaving penalty' removal.

AvalonRanger

BlackRaidho wrote: »

Trust me, you don't want "Quick leaving penalty' removal.

I used to think like that...but now, I don't think so.

wilykcat

The title of this post has got me thinking: Lots of online games are lacking tanks for group content. I wonder why this is 🤔... ?

chessalavakia_ESO

wilykcat wrote: »

The title of this post has got me thinking: Lots of online games are lacking tanks for group content. I wonder why this is 🤔... ?

It's a mixture of the style of tanks not appealing to players coupled with the amount of power that the role wields frequently causing them to be under pressure from other players.

Necrotech_Master

wilykcat wrote: »

The title of this post has got me thinking: Lots of online games are lacking tanks for group content. I wonder why this is 🤔... ?

tanks have a lot of pressure on them

if they die, likely the team dies
they also cant deal a lot of dmg so soloing is awful
tanks are usually the first to be blamed if the team wipes even if it was unrelated to the wipe (such as failed heal/dps check or other mechanic failure)

fizl101

wilykcat wrote: »

The title of this post has got me thinking: Lots of online games are lacking tanks for group content. I wonder why this is 🤔... ?

Vocalised opinions like the OP wont help. If you have mainly played solo or as a DD, why would you put yourself through the pain and stress of being thought of as useless, carried etc etc because you aren't a tank main, or learning, or just not as good as others

El_Borracho

@AvalonRanger Agreed. I've read the other comments in these threads. Part of "getting better" is knowing when you are not ready. If the CP 300 tank was experienced (which is unlikely as they are CP 300) they should know that they don't have the CP points to get higher resistances, damage mitigation, resources, or health. They should compensate by going with fully selfish setups, but most I have seen do not.

Not saying there aren't CP 300s that are not good players. And I'm sure there have been times when a CP 300 tank has done just fine. But overall, they don't have the same resistances or resources that go into the CP 1200+ builds, so they are not going to stand up as well to the damage levels in vet DLC dungeons. Saw plenty of sub-CP 800 tanks yesterday get melted in vet Graven Deep. Some knew the mechs and still got worked.

AvalonRanger

El_Borracho wrote: »

@AvalonRanger Agreed. I've read the other comments in these threads. Part of "getting better" is knowing when you are not ready. If the CP 300 tank was experienced (which is unlikely as they are CP 300) they should know that they don't have the CP points to get higher resistances, damage mitigation, resources, or health. They should compensate by going with fully selfish setups, but most I have seen do not.

Not saying there aren't CP 300s that are not good players. And I'm sure there have been times when a CP 300 tank has done just fine. But overall, they don't have the same resistances or resources that go into the CP 1200+ builds, so they are not going to stand up as well to the damage levels in vet DLC dungeons. Saw plenty of sub-CP 800 tanks yesterday get melted in vet Graven Deep. Some knew the mechs and still got worked.

Thanks for the your perfect replying.

If lowbie has decent knowledge and tactics training as tank, then I'll try to help the guy as healer
regardless fail or not. But most of lowbie people come to Vet dungeon without decent training.

I hope that ZOS remove quick leaving penalty. Why fair player suffer punishment by the bad player?
Or ZOS should make role certification system for the healthy random grouping rather than U40 new grouping system.

AvalonRanger

AvalonRanger wrote: »

If tank can't do dragon tanking of Elsweyr without healer support,
then should not do Vet dungeon tanking. Otherwise you will kill every your ally.

Baby tank is literary "milk drinker" like the Nord said. No thanks.

Suck up my every 30K magika pool as direct healing only for the tank within 30sec,
and let me drink much of my hand made magika potion, but can't survive just 1 min.

Not tank anymore, It like the magika resource vampire.

I can't heal DD at all in those situation. DD died, because couldn't receive healing.
I died, because tank can't survive just 1min, and got heavy attack from the boss.

Sigh...well, ZOS had better remove "quick leaving penalty". This is not fair.

I'm happy that people who want to become real tank are increasing.
Because, that direction make the grouping contents of ESO make healthy.

But , inexperienced tank coming to Vet dungeon without decent training
is just "disaster".

Thanks for ZOS effort, we have HarrowStorm and Dragon fighting of the Eryswer
as good role training ground. Just test your tactics and building certification
at there before queue as tank. Very please.

Don't kill good people at the grouping mission.

Necrotech_Master

if you require people to become role certified, it will 100% kill the dungeon queue

especially if you make it so every time someone changes gear or skills they have to "re-certify" before queuing

adding in a certification wont stop anything, and in fact harm the group finder by adding extra hurdles to use it

if someone wears tank gear, and gets tank certification, whats to stop them from them changing gear to dps and continue fake tanking? (as i alluded to in the 2nd sentence, you could require re-certification, but that would be worse than just having the certification to begin with)

adding a certification system does nothing and will actively harm the queue, it will not prevent fake roles, and it will turn new/inexperienced players off of the system entirely

AvalonRanger

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

if you require people to become role certified, it will 100% kill the dungeon queue
especially if you make it so every time someone changes gear or skills they have to "re-certify" before queuing
adding in a certification wont stop anything....

Your opinion is correct, and I've already noticed it far more before you said.
But, point is not such a "small picture".

Player can display some achievement flag above the head just like the sub-character name, right?
If player can display meaningful skill certification flag, then al least, we can
understand that the guy is not totally "noob". We can notice that "this guy did enough amount of
training for the specific role for the dangerous mission.

This is the "big picture" which I said.

And, I want to do "quick leaving", If I find too much nonsense quality player among the Vet PUG team
for the good sake. I don't want to spend my resource for the meaningless combat.

ZOS must remove "quick leaving penalty" for the justice.

Ph1p

Removing queue penalties will just make the dungeon experience far worse. All it will accomplish is tons of people complaining about tanks or healers abandoning their group, because they got a long/difficult dungeon from the random finder. Then even more DDs will queue with fake roles to avoid the long wait - after all, if they get a DLC dungeon that requires a real tank, they can just leave and immediately requeue as fake-tank until they get an easy dungeon.

Jaimeh

I agree that runs like that can be pretty brutal, but I don't think it's impossible if they are willing to listen to some pointers. And I also don't think it's up to the healer exclusively. I've been in this situation quite a few times with my own healer, most recently in a vet Cauldron where the newbie tank was having a lot of difficulties, and although we wiped a lot, we were able to do it in the end with a certain amount of coordination and the healer and DDs going above and beyond in the last fight. If the DDs can mind themselves a bit and also know how to kite during a rez, it's a lot easier to recover from a tank wipe. Usually a low CP tank dying is a combination of not having resistances, and also not knowing the fight well enough. I've seen a lot of baby tanks that are just sitting in an AoE, eating damage, when they don't have the mitigation to do so, and when they could have easily moved out and give the healer a break, but inexperienced tanks are more prone to freezing up, to either constantly block and use their stamina up, or kite all over the place so that the healer will have to chase them around to keep them alive. The best solution in those cases is to advise them on positioning for every part in the fight, so that you can heal both them and the DDs, to anticipate when there will be big incoming damage and preemptively give them a shield and a HoT, and also, depending on the group, to do some damage yourself as a healer. I was on a vet Shipwright run and helping with killing the adds and the mini boss made a difference in the fight not becoming overwhelming for the newbie tank that we had. If they can fix their positioning so they don't constantly eat damage and you don't have to spam heals on them and empty your own magicka, it's usually the first step into making the fight more doable. Sometimes it might not happen in the time the group has for a run, and yeah that can be frustrating, but everyone has to start somewhere.

boi_anachronism_

I mean this is luck of the draw with randoms. Ive solo dps'd vet dungeons while healers baby sat baby tanks going so far as to give the tank armor pots to help them stay up. It happens unfortunately. You just kind of do the best you can while they try to figure it out. Remember: there is a huge skill gap between vet and reg dungeons and unfortunately there is no way for tanks to meaningfully practice mechanics in reg dungeons because things die too quick. Theymay do fine at a dragon or harrowstorm because they can practice but thats not a stand in for learning which mechs in icereach can one shot you for example.

ceruulean

If I have the skill to tank, played PvP to get the necessary skill lines, why should I play a tank and be at the mercy of DD who won't peel adds? Yeah I'm gonna solo with my own build, thanks. Nowadays it's probably easier to solo Fang Lair HM than to tank it.

Here's the reddit meme showing DD PoV vs Tank: https://www.reddit.com/r/elderscrollsonline/s/gvfiWPwfy1

The good tanks are even sweatier than the DPS players. You also need to shell out gold for tri-pots or have a reserve of daily login potions, which new players don't have. Obviously good players of all roles are equally sweaty but yeah tanking tends to be the toughest

Ardriel

AvalonRanger wrote: »

Now, please remind this.

Basically, tank is protector for the DD and healer.
Don't be protected by DD and healer. Just DON'T.

Please, "DON'T make other role "your baby sitter" as tank.

In only few mechanics of DLC dungeon, tank needs minimum healing support,
but basically, tank should be self sufficient player.

This is basic.

Exactly.

TybaltKaine wrote: »

Did you talk to them, try to help at all, or did you just come here to post about another "bad" player?

I've seen it so often that people react extremely sensitively to the slightest criticism. Even if I express myself politely.
It also happened to me that tanks called me a bad healer when they died because they made a mistake. E.g. in normal Sunspire. The tank was incapable of blocking or dodging and regularly died during the frost breath. The other healer was probably a fake healer, since I did almost 70% of healing. The dps were pretty inexperienced and died on wing flap. Yes, this can also happen on normal in Sunspire. And they blamed me. Yeah, then I just left... Ridiculous and a waste of time discussing with people like that. In ESO, the healer is only to blame in exceptional cases when tanks or dps die. It's not the healer's job in ESO to compensate for the mistakes of other players, but to provide support and buffs and regularly cast healing circles and hots. Burst heal should only be necessary in an emergency. Or heal for special mechanics such as frost tombs or frost bombs.

If you don't really know how to play your role/class, you have no business in vet DLC dungeons. And that applies to all roles.

FrancisCrawford

One of my most enjoyable GF PUG runs ever was healing vWGT with a low CP tank who'd never done WGT in any mode before.

We wiped once on the Planar Inhibitor. Then we discussed the mechanics with him. We agreed on kiting. I for one of the first times ever switched to the Sanctuary Set. I follwed his kite, spamming heals madly. We prevailed.

ForzaRammer

Better an inexperienced support that at least trying toearn, than some sub20k dps dd that brings nothing except entitlement

MidniteOwl1913

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

One of my most enjoyable GF PUG runs ever was healing vWGT with a low CP tank who'd never done WGT in any mode before.

We wiped once on the Planar Inhibitor. Then we discussed the mechanics with him. We agreed on kiting. I for one of the first times ever switched to the Sanctuary Set. I follwed his kite, spamming heals madly. We prevailed.

That sounds wonderful! I too really enjoy healing and last night ran into an inexperienced tank. He was really trying, but he was under 300CP it wasn't really enough. The DPS were both high CP and didn't really need any support so I focused on the tank. Maybe the Sanctuary set would have helped him too?