Is it time to finally bring back proc enabled no-cp campaign?

buzzclops

Its been years now. The no proc campaign is always empty even during mayhem.
I play a lot of pvp and personally I think the balance of the game is way better in no cp. i compare my experience from often fighting the same meta players in high mmr bgs and then in cp cyro. Nothing feels as broken or stale in no cp.

ProudMary

If anything I think they should go the other way, and make all PvP no proc. It's the proc sets that create so much non skill related damage and defense, and, I'm pretty sure, leads to most of the lag as well. So make PvP no proc, give us a list of the sets we can and can't use that is clear, and bring back 24 man group size and population caps of at least 200/faction.

OBJnoob

I love no-proc but it's pretty obvious most people don't. Particularly because the list of working sets has never been provided... It's probably time to pull the plug.

As many people claim to hate proc sets and CP you'd think, @ProudMary, that making all PvP no-proc would be a good idea. But I think the vast majority actually like it as a whole and only have complaints about small specifics. As evidenced by the huge discrepancy between campaign populations. Making all of Cyrodiil be no-proc might be a deathblow and I don't think it's worth the risk.

Tonturri

OBJnoob wrote: »

I love no-proc but it's pretty obvious most people don't. Particularly because the list of working sets has never been provided... It's probably time to pull the plug.

As many people claim to hate proc sets and CP you'd think, @ProudMary, that making all PvP no-proc would be a good idea. But I think the vast majority actually like it as a whole and only have complaints about small specifics. As evidenced by the huge discrepancy between campaign populations. Making all of Cyrodiil be no-proc might be a deathblow and I don't think it's worth the risk.

Unfortunately there are some nice procs out there that I think are decent, but they're overshadowed by the overperforming ones because everyone and their mother runs them, every time.

If giving up procs fixed lag though I'd do it in a heartbeat. CP system too. Though I think a limited version of the CP system in PVP would be cool - such as, you have 300 (or some small number of points) to spend. Imo it's still decently valuable as a progression system, it's just kinda spiraled out of control over the years.

TybaltKaine

The problem is that proc sets aren't created equally. Some are way too overtuned. A solution would be CP No Proc, as it would eliminate the massive crutches that most people use but also allow enough build diversity to create interesting fights.

Going in with a bad proc set is just as bad as going in with no proc set when things are so skewed, and when everyone is running the same thing, fights get boring.

Having CP No Proc as an option would at least give people who want to feel powerful a place to play.

Essentially the exact opposite of the OP suggestion.

SaffronCitrusflower

TybaltKaine wrote: »

The problem is that proc sets aren't created equally. Some are way too overtuned. A solution would be CP No Proc, as it would eliminate the massive crutches that most people use but also allow enough build diversity to create interesting fights.

Going in with a bad proc set is just as bad as going in with no proc set when things are so skewed, and when everyone is running the same thing, fights get boring.

Having CP No Proc as an option would at least give people who want to feel powerful a place to play.

Essentially the exact opposite of the OP suggestion.

Agreed. Just make all PvP no proc, one camp with CP, another without.

ProudMary wrote: »

If anything I think they should go the other way, and make all PvP no proc. It's the proc sets that create so much non skill related damage and defense, and, I'm pretty sure, leads to most of the lag as well. So make PvP no proc, give us a list of the sets we can and can't use that is clear, and bring back 24 man group size and population caps of at least 200/faction.

Araneae6537

Th original no proc was to test whether it made Cyrodiil run better, for the engine not to have n extra test to perform (forgive me if that wording is inaccurate).

As I recall, no procs didn’t make a difference to performance, but it was lovely to fight other players rather than ridiculous armor sets. Going forward, I wonder whether it would be feasible to make a curated list and include sets that aren’t what most players probably think of as proc sets. IMHO, sets that should be allowed enhance player abilities, like Markman’s Crest and Burning Spellweave. On the other end of the spectrum are sets that push or pull players, like Dark Convergence, which was made even worse by being bugged for a while and then sets that produce their own OP effects, like Plaguebreak. There would undoubtedly be debate on what sets belong or don’t, but perhaps a list of more usable sets would be the result and more players would enjoy it.

As for whether CP or not, I can see arguments either way. While personally, I prefer CP, if being no CP would encourage more new players to take part, I think that is important.

Necrotech_Master

pvp would be dead to me if all of it was made no proc

and what would you do with all of the proc sets that specifically only work in pvp (such as VD and rallying cry)?

i think a lot of the frustration with the no proc setup is that its extremely unclear what works and what doesnt, and there are even some things that should work but dont, and some things that do work that shouldnt

personally if they want to keep the no proc, i would suggest they take it a step further and remove all gear set bonuses in that campaign

this would solve 2 issues:

1. there would be no confusion about what works and what doesnt, because none of it would work
2. without gear bonuses and cp, it would be a true test of skill and the only true way to show class imbalance

so while i personally dont like playing in no proc cause i find it boring, i think the current way its handled doesnt make a lot of sense and the confusion/lack of upkeep on a list of viable sets is what actually puts a lot of people off

Araneae6537

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

pvp would be dead to me if all of it was made no proc

and what would you do with all of the proc sets that specifically only work in pvp (such as VD and rallying cry)?

i think a lot of the frustration with the no proc setup is that its extremely unclear what works and what doesnt, and there are even some things that should work but dont, and some things that do work that shouldnt

personally if they want to keep the no proc, i would suggest they take it a step further and remove all gear set bonuses in that campaign

this would solve 2 issues:

1. there would be no confusion about what works and what doesnt, because none of it would work
2. without gear bonuses and cp, it would be a true test of skill and the only true way to show class imbalance

so while i personally dont like playing in no proc cause i find it boring, i think the current way its handled doesnt make a lot of sense and the confusion/lack of upkeep on a list of viable sets is what actually puts a lot of people off

I agree that it shouldn’t all be no proc (or whatever set restrictions) and you make a good point about it being confusing what sets do or don’t work.

Your suggestion could be interesting and eliminates the problem both of knowing what does or doesn’t work and then having to acquire gear for a no proc build rather than wear gear they aren’t getting full benefit from. I wonder if the amount of stats would be too low for any sustainable combat though? Maybe players could all choose from the same list of predetermined stat bonuses (like GW2 battleground equivalents)? Again, I’m not proposing this for all PvP, but what might be an option perhaps better than the current no-CP no-proc.

reazea

Maybe ZOS should put a little notation on every gear set description that says whether or not it's a proc set. That would clear things up, but I doubt it will ever happen.

Necrotech_Master

Araneae6537 wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

pvp would be dead to me if all of it was made no proc

and what would you do with all of the proc sets that specifically only work in pvp (such as VD and rallying cry)?

i think a lot of the frustration with the no proc setup is that its extremely unclear what works and what doesnt, and there are even some things that should work but dont, and some things that do work that shouldnt

personally if they want to keep the no proc, i would suggest they take it a step further and remove all gear set bonuses in that campaign

this would solve 2 issues:

1. there would be no confusion about what works and what doesnt, because none of it would work
2. without gear bonuses and cp, it would be a true test of skill and the only true way to show class imbalance

so while i personally dont like playing in no proc cause i find it boring, i think the current way its handled doesnt make a lot of sense and the confusion/lack of upkeep on a list of viable sets is what actually puts a lot of people off

I agree that it shouldn’t all be no proc (or whatever set restrictions) and you make a good point about it being confusing what sets do or don’t work.

Your suggestion could be interesting and eliminates the problem both of knowing what does or doesn’t work and then having to acquire gear for a no proc build rather than wear gear they aren’t getting full benefit from. I wonder if the amount of stats would be too low for any sustainable combat though? Maybe players could all choose from the same list of predetermined stat bonuses (like GW2 battleground equivalents)? Again, I’m not proposing this for all PvP, but what might be an option perhaps better than the current no-CP no-proc.

i think that would be part of the point, lower sustain means fights would not stalemate or drag out for 20+ min

if you had no gear bonuses (the flat armor, armor passives, and probably enchantments/traits would be all you get), if you only used heavy armor your dmg and sustain would be garbage

if you used light armor you would get more pen bonuses but also be a glass cannon, and using medium armor would be like a good balance in between (good dmg, sustain for core combat like ccbreak and dodging, no armor penalties)

i dont think you would be able to front load all of your attributes in health either, because again your sustain would be terrible

it would be like just taking a full set of white armor with an enchant and using that for pvp (though you could gold it out if you wanted to

it would also make something like impen more important because you would be lacking cp crit resist, and with no gear bonuses theres no other way to get crit resist

mariuszeb17_ESO5

I see a different solution, approved pvp sets that work in both environments (nonCP and CP).
Sets should be approved by ZOS and pvp community.
The most harmful ones should be removed for example a "Wrath of Elements", "Maarselok", "Dragon's and Appetite".
Simple solution: removal from pvp environments (Battle Spirit) one parametr: "Decreases your Damage Taken by 55%" and add this to approved pvp sets.

xDeusEJRx

mariuszeb17_ESO5 wrote: »

I see a different solution, approved pvp sets that work in both environments (nonCP and CP).
Sets should be approved by ZOS and pvp community.
The most harmful ones should be removed for example a "Wrath of Elements", "Maarselok", "Dragon's and Appetite".
Simple solution: removal from pvp environments (Battle Spirit) one parametr: "Decreases your Damage Taken by 55%" and add this to approved pvp sets.

This would not work because that same PVP community pushes the Vate destro, masters dual wield meta. What makes you think the community that enforces such a meta (it's the players who chose to run that gear in the first place) to willingly give that up over night? Lol, players enjoy cheese in this game, that's all it boils down to at the end of the day.

Holycannoli

ProudMary wrote: »

If anything I think they should go the other way, and make all PvP no proc. It's the proc sets that create so much non skill related damage and defense, and, I'm pretty sure, leads to most of the lag as well. So make PvP no proc, give us a list of the sets we can and can't use that is clear, and bring back 24 man group size and population caps of at least 200/faction.

I would love to go in a slightly different direction and make it no proc except for PvP sets. Any sets that can be bought or earned in Cyrodiil, IC and Battlgrounds can proc normally but that's it.

I mean that does leave some of the offending sets still useable in Cyrodiil but they're PvP sets and should be useable. But arena and trial sets? Nope. They're not PvP sets.

It also eliminates confusion as to what procs and what doesn't. Is it a PvP set? It procs. Is it not a PvP set? It doesn't proc.

Kartalin

Regrettably I think we're expecting too much from a company that appears more than content to let the pvp community gradually fade into oblivion as numbers continue to hemorrhage.

A year or two ago when PC/NA still had population on all sides of Ravenwatch I asked a dev friend of mine if it was possible to look up the eligible sets for the campaign, and here's the thing -- HE DID JUST THAT. Came back to me with a complete list of eligible Ravenwatch sets. I immediately leaked the info to @CaperGuy 's epic thread, which meant that I was able to provide the remaining two or three sets that hadn't already been discovered by the amazing detective work of CaperGuy et al. Stuff you wouldn't necessarily suspect anyway like True sworn fury.

So when I continually ask whether ZOS could look up that stuff for us, it's because I already knew for a fact that it was possible to do just that and yet they STILL REFUSED to do that for whatever reason.

I think when we were asking for a no proc campaign the players wanting it were hoping for a no free damage campaign. That is not what we were given. Instead we were handed a scenario where if they populations ever became unbalanced the higher pop one would tank up and win by attrition given that the lower pop factions had no tools to overcome that. Since we're playing with a very custom set of procs available, all we really needed was vicious death. That's it. That would have made it more bearable.

Ah well.

OBJnoob

xDeusEJRx wrote: »

mariuszeb17_ESO5 wrote: »

I see a different solution, approved pvp sets that work in both environments (nonCP and CP).
Sets should be approved by ZOS and pvp community.
The most harmful ones should be removed for example a "Wrath of Elements", "Maarselok", "Dragon's and Appetite".
Simple solution: removal from pvp environments (Battle Spirit) one parametr: "Decreases your Damage Taken by 55%" and add this to approved pvp sets.

This would not work because that same PVP community pushes the Vate destro, masters dual wield meta. What makes you think the community that enforces such a meta (it's the players who chose to run that gear in the first place) to willingly give that up over night? Lol, players enjoy cheese in this game, that's all it boils down to at the end of the day.

I see the logic of what you're saying and there's (at least,) a 50% chance you're right.

I'll say this though. I used to play an online trading card game called Urban Rivals. It had a weekly ELO ranked mode and at the end of every week it was up to the players to check boxes next to cards they wanted to be banned for the following week. It WAS always the overperforming cards that'd get banned. And, under the circumstances, obviously different cards were "OP" next week. It was fun to theorycraft your new deck every week, and even though some things were still OP it was nice to have what was OP last week not be what was OP next week.

I think it's a good idea actually.

SaffronCitrusflower

Yes, and put the server resources into Grey Host.

mariuszeb17_ESO5

xDeusEJRx wrote: »

This would not work because that same PVP community pushes the Vate destro, masters dual wield meta...

Any way still, I would give them a chance. Maybe at the end of the day they would want to play PVP - not Proc Vs Proc.

xFocused

ProudMary wrote: »

If anything I think they should go the other way, and make all PvP no proc. It's the proc sets that create so much non skill related damage and defense, and, I'm pretty sure, leads to most of the lag as well. So make PvP no proc, give us a list of the sets we can and can't use that is clear, and bring back 24 man group size and population caps of at least 200/faction.

It's definitely not the proc sets causing the lag, it's more that they openly stated Cyrodiil is still running on 2012 servers, lol.

ADawg

Do not touch Ravenwatch, there are a number of us that love it.

No-proc has its place, as your build and play requires you to actually use classes and stats over sets.

That said, The set list should be defined in game and also expanded to include sets that aren't really "procs".

Set categories that should be included:

1. Sets that grant a bonus while eating a food or drinking a drink
2. Nearby group benefit sets
3. Sets that scale off of health level (some work while some don't)
4. Basically any set that doesn't spawn an actual proc aka new skill


No proc has been enjoyable PVP for me for years and if it goes away I might retire this game permanently.

finehair

Only proc set in pvp should be vicious death and plaguebreak. And their proc damage should be decrease like %30 for each person you're grouped with so that people can't spam it on their 40 man guilds to cheese every fight.

IZZEFlameLash

No chance. Procs on No-CP melt people even faster. Like almost down to NB gank level. At least that's been my experience with this weird combo of proc + no-cp from the past.

OBJnoob

IZZEFlameLash wrote: »

No chance. Procs on No-CP melt people even faster. Like almost down to NB gank level. At least that's been my experience with this weird combo of proc + no-cp from the past.

Naw, I disagree. I played Ravenwatch for ages, proc and no-proc, and it wasn't that bad. I don't even think it was bad period.

But if you really want to remember what it "was" like just do a BG. Are you melting?

CameraBeardThePirate

IZZEFlameLash wrote: »

No chance. Procs on No-CP melt people even faster. Like almost down to NB gank level. At least that's been my experience with this weird combo of proc + no-cp from the past.

Stalematey BGs simply prove this wrong. BGs have devolved into staring matches half the time because people are tanky these days, even with procs.

Necrotech_Master

IZZEFlameLash wrote: »

No chance. Procs on No-CP melt people even faster. Like almost down to NB gank level. At least that's been my experience with this weird combo of proc + no-cp from the past.

this used to be the case before cp2.0

in the original CP system you used to get an enormous benefit from CP

in cp2.0 the bonuses are there, but most of them are pretty minimal

like you only get 700 passive pen from cp2.0, thats less than the bosmer racial bonus