Battlegrounds - Warden Healers

Jierdanit

Ren_TheRedFox wrote: »

@DUTCH_REAPER why? Damage is getting buffed almost every patch somehow ...

And yet 1 healer can completely change the outcome of a BG in their teams favor, while 1 DPS is never able to do that unless they are severely stronger/better than basically anyone else in the BG.

Healers effectively ruin tons of especially solo queue BGs for anyone in the opponent teams because you really have nothing you can do if the enemy team has a healer and yours doesnt. That is especially bad with the 50k+ hp warden healers because those are basically impossible to kill unless the players in your team are so much stronger than the players in the healers team that they can actually focus the healer for a prolonged amount of time without really having to worry about dying.

Brakkish

Jierdanit wrote: »

And yet 1 healer can completely change the outcome of a BG in their teams favor, while 1 DPS is never able to do that unless they are severely stronger/better than basically anyone else in the BG.

Healers effectively ruin tons of especially solo queue BGs for anyone in the opponent teams because you really have nothing you can do if the enemy team has a healer and yours doesn't. That is especially bad with the 50k+ hp warden healers because those are basically impossible to kill unless the players in your team are so much stronger than the players in the healers team that they can actually focus the healer for a prolonged amount of time without really having to worry about dying.

If only the BG player base was still healthy enough to matchmake teams by role. (Role queuing is currently selectable but does nothing for those who don't already know).

Matchmaking could in theory then be:

Each team gets one healer + X X X
But I suspect it's never been used because of what we see in dungeons; fake tanks, and fake healers.
Only in a perfect world would this be viable; but the reality is we can't have nice things cuz people will be people.

Ren_TheRedFox

@Jierdanit I understand your POV, but ..... Healing is essential in any type of content... without a healer most groups will wipe.... yes, you can have a group with 4 DPS, but guess what that group will have pressure on them because they have the damage, but without healing, they will wipe ... However, I must admit that I personally hate fighting players with more than 40k because they are tanky, but in the case of the warden, they also have a great burst heal.
I'm a BG healer and I know how frustrating it can be for the other groups to fight mine, but that's part of PvP.... Healers have been around since the beginning and you can't just make a role disappear just to make the game "easier" for damage dealers to kill each other ....
We already have a 55% healing received debuff with battle spirit and there are several sets that will boost that effect.
There's another point you should keep in mind ... pretty much every patch a class is getting buffed dps wise and I'm gonna be honest with you, if you've seen the damage output of an arcanist, dk or a nb you'll see that you can actually kill a healer easily if you put enough pressure on them.

Jierdanit

Ren_TheRedFox wrote: »

@Jierdanit I understand your POV, but ..... Healing is essential in any type of content... without a healer most groups will wipe.... yes, you can have a group with 4 DPS, but guess what that group will have pressure on them because they have the damage, but without healing, they will wipe ... However, I must admit that I personally hate fighting players with more than 40k because they are tanky, but in the case of the warden, they also have a great burst heal.
I'm a BG healer and I know how frustrating it can be for the other groups to fight mine, but that's part of PvP.... Healers have been around since the beginning and you can't just make a role disappear just to make the game "easier" for damage dealers to kill each other ....
We already have a 55% healing received debuff with battle spirit and there are several sets that will boost that effect.
There's another point you should keep in mind ... pretty much every patch a class is getting buffed dps wise and I'm gonna be honest with you, if you've seen the damage output of an arcanist, dk or a nb you'll see that you can actually kill a healer easily if you put enough pressure on them.

Actually most content in ESO does absolutely not need a healer atm. You can do nearly everything in PvE except for Trials, including a lot of vet DLC dungeon trifectas without a healer.
It might not be the way you want it to be but currently healing is absolutely not essential in every type of content.

Another thing is that in PvP even DPS players already have at least a decent amount of self healing and often even quite some cross heals.
If you now put a healer on top of people who at least somewhat know what they are doing they are either basically unkillable or they can completely ignore their defense because the healer takes care of it.

On my MagNB i can get up to 6k self heal per second and can do a lot of group healing even with just Offering and Path.
That is often enough to keep people alive unless they are in a very bad situation.
A full healer does that on a whole other level.
As long as the BG queue doesnt take into account the players roles almost every BG with a healer is going to be unbalanced in their teams favor. (That is barely going to be possible with low population for especially high MMR BGs though)

Also if you are a (warden) healer and you die to a single player then it is completely your fault. And if a whole team can put enough pressure on you to kill you it is entirely your teams fault.

Sythen88411

B A L A N C E D

Ren_TheRedFox

@Jierdanit, don't get me wrong, but it's not the fault of us healers that almost every PvP player has a resto staff on their back bar ... it's funny to see how many people complain about healers, but "love" them when they're not on their team . ... in Eso's current state, it's easy enough to kill any player with all the meta classes and sets ... unlimited penetration corrosive, endless arcanist stuns with laser beams, or nice merciless resolves with at least 20k ticks ... I can say with certainty that it's certainly not our fault that everything is broken ... yes, healers can be a real pain, but they are part of the game and essential ... and yet I think Polarwind is broken ... you know why? ... because the current meta right now is that everyone needs to have at least 40k hp and almost 30k resistances ... and yet there is a skill that scales off max HP and heals 2 people and gives them a nice HoT ...
And one more small insertion ... thanks to hybridisation, it doesn't matter if you build up spell damage or weapon damage, for example ... it doesn't matter anymore if you have the major brutality or the sorcery buff, because the skills scale from the higher one ... I wouldn't blame the healing part of the game for this ... Rather the fact that we have access to an immense variety of stats thanks to all the fancy gear and buffs .... In the past, every player was happy to have Major Heroism, for example, because you couldn't get it that easily ... now when you look at all the sets you see how easy it is to get it ....
Anyway, this post is not about hybridisation .... I'm sure there are many posts about it ...
And to sum it up ... yes, polar wind needs a nerf.

OBJnoob

Casting my vote: Polar Wind needs a nerf, but healers are fine overall. Sometimes you have a healer and sometimes you don't. It is very fair that this should be a determining factor in who wins. If you want to guarantee that your team always has a healer then it's the group que for you.

Jierdanit

Ren_TheRedFox wrote: »

don't get me wrong, but it's not the fault of us healers that almost every PvP player has a resto staff on their back bar

Really not a lot of PvP players are playing resto backbar currently (especially in solo queue BGs), but you really dont necessarily need it to have decent healing.

Ren_TheRedFox wrote: »

it's funny to see how many people complain about healers, but "love" them when they're not on their team

Of course most people are usually not going to complain about having a healer. Everyone likes winning.
However i for example only like having a healer in my team if at least 1 (preferably both) other teams also have one because 90% of BGs in which your team is the only one with a healer are absolutely boring because you really dont have any challenge and just stomp the enemy teams.

Ren_TheRedFox wrote: »

in Eso's current state, it's easy enough to kill any player with all the meta classes and sets ... unlimited penetration corrosive, endless arcanist stuns with laser beams, or nice merciless resolves with at least 20k ticks

Again, if you are playing a high hp healer and you are dying in a 1v1 then you are making a mistake. Yes corrosive DKs can have a lot of damage, but even they should not be able to kill you through 40 - 50k+ hp. If you are standing in an Arcanists beam long enough for that to completely kill you then you need to work on your movement and saying that merciless hits at least 20k is completely ridiculous, i havent been hit by a merciless over about 16k in BGs a single time.

Ren_TheRedFox wrote: »

I can say with certainty that it's certainly not our fault that everything is broken ... yes, healers can be a real pain, but they are part of the game and essential ... and yet I think Polarwind is broken ... you know why? ... because the current meta right now is that everyone needs to have at least 40k hp and almost 30k resistances ... and yet there is a skill that scales off max HP and heals 2 people and gives them a nice HoT

I wouldnt have a problem with healers if they didnt completely unbalance the playing field in basically any small scale (and also large scale) content way more than any DD could. If i would want the strongest team possible for BGs i would currently rather have 1 decent healer with me than have 3 decent DD with me in most BGs and that is just completely stupid.

Also Polar Wind is not the only problem. Yes a warden healer is usually worse than any other healer because they are basically unkillable if played right, however any other sort of healer is still an absolute pain because at least if they have a somewhat decent team they are still super hard to kill and dont have significantly less healing than wardens.
However i agree, a health based heal should never be able to also heal your group.

Ren_TheRedFox

@Jierdanit mhmm my question is though, why do you think I play a 40-50k HP healer? xD I'm mainly a Templar healer and definitely don't need more than 33k HP (and that's only if I get the minor thoughness buff, otherwise I'm around 30k HP). Also, you're forgetting an important point about fighting healers ... Normally healers in BGs have neither a high magicka nor a high stamina pool ... around 20-27k magicka and 20-23k stamina, as far as I know ... If the other two teams can identify the healer, they will target that person, and believe me, it doesn't matter if you have 33k+ resistances or super high healing ... you will die 95% of the time ... because you will not only run out of resources, but you will also get hit hard with debuffs and damage skills with high damage output.
However, you're right about the matchmaking in BGs with 1 healer on one team and none on the others in most cases ... there are of course the nice exceptions when someone claims to be a healer and dies all the time, but that's another story ...
They really need to change the queing system to give all 3 teams 1 healer and no more ... but unfortunately I suppose they won't do that because the BG population is already very low and since the objective selection is gone, many players stopped doing them.

OBJnoob

I don't understand exactly why the benefit a healer brings to the team seems so "stupid" to you. What is your reasoning exactly?

In a 1v1 both combatants are going to be healing themselves. Healing is inextricably part of the game. Doesn't it just stand to reason that as your group grows and grows then some of these heals might be directed towards teammates? And that some people might even choose to forego doing damage and only heal?

I'm not trying to be sarcastic or argumentative. I'd like to know what about that seems stupid to you.

Is it just that the discrepancy between a team without and a team with is stupidly high? Or do you just literally think healing teammates is stupid?

Jierdanit

Ren_TheRedFox wrote: »

mhmm my question is though, why do you think I play a 40-50k HP healer? xD I'm mainly a Templar healer and definitely don't need more than 33k HP (and that's only if I get the minor thoughness buff, otherwise I'm around 30k HP). Also, you're forgetting an important point about fighting healers ... Normally healers in BGs have neither a high magicka nor a high stamina pool ... around 20-27k magicka and 20-23k stamina, as far as I know ... If the other two teams can identify the healer, they will target that person, and believe me, it doesn't matter if you have 33k+ resistances or super high healing ... you will die 95% of the time ... because you will not only run out of resources, but you will also get hit hard with debuffs and damage skills with high damage output.

I never actually said you are playing a warden healer, but you said that high damage builds can kill literally anything in the game which simply is not the case for builds like a warden healer.
Also 20-27k magicka and 20-23k stamina are high ressource pools in comparison to what most current builds are running.

The only time it actually works to kill you as a healer is (as i already said) if your team is much worse than either of the enemy teams.
If the DDs on each team are about equally strong then the enemy teams are barely ever going to be able to put full pressure on you because they will get killed by your DDs if they go to offensive.
Plus if you get into a position where both other teams can completely focus on you then you made a mistake in your movement.

Jierdanit

OBJnoob wrote: »

I don't understand exactly why the benefit a healer brings to the team seems so "stupid" to you. What is your reasoning exactly?

In a 1v1 both combatants are going to be healing themselves. Healing is inextricably part of the game. Doesn't it just stand to reason that as your group grows and grows then some of these heals might be directed towards teammates? And that some people might even choose to forego doing damage and only heal?

I'm not trying to be sarcastic or argumentative. I'd like to know what about that seems stupid to you.

Is it just that the discrepancy between a team without and a team with is stupidly high? Or do you just literally think healing teammates is stupid?

The thing that is stupid is that its completely impossible to control if you get a healer in your team or if you dont in solo queue BGs (unless you queue as a healer yourself).
Sure as an organized group grows you are most likely going to heal eachother more and probably even get a dedicated healer.
However, a solo queue BG group is not organized. So it is 100% luck wether you end up playing with or against the 1 or 2 people that are going to completely dictate the outcome of almost every BG they are in.

It is stupid that a single healer is able to sometimes counter the damage of a full team of high damage players to such an extent that the people playing with the healer dont need to care about their defense at all and can just go all out on damage.

Healing teammates in general is obviously not stupid, but i do think that the possible healing a dedicated healer can put out is way too high to be in any way balanced.

Brakkish

It's been the story for ages:

Players complain about healers; until one is on their team.

Jierdanit

Brakkish wrote: »

It's been the story for ages:

Players complain about healers; until one is on their team.

Pretty sure that tells you enough about how unbalanced healers are.

Bashev

Brakkish wrote: »

It's been the story for ages:

Players complain about healers; until one is on their team.

There used to be time when we complained that we got a healer. Back in the days cross healing was even more powerful and 4DDs with cross healing were a better option than 3 DDs and a healer in order to secure some kills.

I am talking for random setups and not premades.

Ren_TheRedFox

even with a healer on your team doesn't mean you will win .... I was in several BGs yesterday with my templar healer and had 3 dds with me ... even with my high healing output (between 2 -3 million, which is high for solo battlegrounds) we were not able to win ... actually they were wiping all the time, which was kind of sad and it wasn't my fault because I had a lot of HoTs and burst heals active all the time . ... what I'm trying to say is ... even if you have a great healer in your team .... it doesn't mean you'll automatically win and btw, this is in high mmr where I actually expect people to survive and not wipe after a hit ....

Jierdanit

Ren_TheRedFox wrote: »

even with a healer on your team doesn't mean you will win .... I was in several BGs yesterday with my templar healer and had 3 dds with me ... even with my high healing output (between 2 -3 million, which is high for solo battlegrounds) we were not able to win ... actually they were wiping all the time, which was kind of sad and it wasn't my fault because I had a lot of HoTs and burst heals active all the time . ... what I'm trying to say is ... even if you have a great healer in your team .... it doesn't mean you'll automatically win and btw, this is in high mmr where I actually expect people to survive and not wipe after a hit ....

Sure you dont automatically win.

But your team had to be quite a bit weaker in terms of players than at least one of the enemy teams.
If your team would have been as strong as them you would have won quite easily.

OBJnoob

I think ultimately this is a solo que problem (I solo que,) and not a game problem. Sometimes you have a healer and sometimes you don't. Likewise sometimes you have good teammates and sometimes you don't.

If you want to be organized and competitive then I suggest finding some friends and using the group que. Make sure one friend is a healer.

Calling healers unbalanced because it's helpful to have one is like saying tanks are OP in dungeons. They're just filling a role. Of course your team will function better with all roles represented.

SpiritKitten

Ren_TheRedFox wrote: »

even with a healer on your team doesn't mean you will win .... I was in several BGs yesterday with my templar healer and had 3 dds with me ... even with my high healing output (between 2 -3 million, which is high for solo battlegrounds) we were not able to win ... actually they were wiping all the time, which was kind of sad and it wasn't my fault because I had a lot of HoTs and burst heals active all the time . ... what I'm trying to say is ... even if you have a great healer in your team .... it doesn't mean you'll automatically win and btw, this is in high mmr where I actually expect people to survive and not wipe after a hit ....

You just said your templar healer heals 2-3mil, so AGAIN here is another healer class in this thread that heals waaaaay more than my warden healer. I think y'all just proved warden polar wind healers are actually underpowered. And even with healing 750k-1mil in solo BGs, 4 out of 5 times my team loses. Y'all are just complaining about something that is a NON-ISSUE. Quit trying to nerf my class/build, when it is obvious y'all not me are the problem.

Jierdanit

SpiritKitten wrote: »

Ren_TheRedFox wrote: »

even with a healer on your team doesn't mean you will win .... I was in several BGs yesterday with my templar healer and had 3 dds with me ... even with my high healing output (between 2 -3 million, which is high for solo battlegrounds) we were not able to win ... actually they were wiping all the time, which was kind of sad and it wasn't my fault because I had a lot of HoTs and burst heals active all the time . ... what I'm trying to say is ... even if you have a great healer in your team .... it doesn't mean you'll automatically win and btw, this is in high mmr where I actually expect people to survive and not wipe after a hit ....

You just said your templar healer heals 2-3mil, so AGAIN here is another healer class in this thread that heals waaaaay more than my warden healer. I think y'all just proved warden polar wind healers are actually underpowered. And even with healing 750k-1mil in solo BGs, 4 out of 5 times my team loses. Y'all are just complaining about something that is a NON-ISSUE. Quit trying to nerf my class/build, when it is obvious y'all not me are the problem.

Just because you cant get it to work doesnt mean its bad lol

I have seen wardens get to like 5+ million healing in BGs.
Pretty sure this is a you problem and not a class problem.

Ren_TheRedFox

@SpiritKitten don't get me wrong but that is really a you problem ... I've healed for over 4 million on my warden, my plar and my sorc several times ... and also I got the 4 mill on the warden with only 32k hp ... polar wind healers can easily reach that too but they put in half of the effort I did cause they don't have to worry about blocking that much thanks to the high HP pool

Oblivion_Protocol

@SpiritKitten Yeah, I’ve healed for close to 1 mil on a Warden DD once before, so a dedicated healer should easily clear that. I’m going to add to the growing consensus that it’s a ‘you’ problem and not an underpowered class problem.

Polar Wind should not scale with HP. Period. Polar Wind should not be able to heal other players. Period. Wardens running around with 44k - 50k HP shouldn’t be functionally immortal as well as able to extend that benefit to anyone standing near them. One block spam tank and one Warden Polar Wind healer can outright hold some BGs hostage, and that’s a problem.