The Bear, the Birb and the Basement Or: How I Learned To Stop Bothering and Love the Suck

Skjaldbjorn

Hi, I'm Bjorn. I began my ESO journey shortly before the Morrowind expansion dropped. Since then, I have mained the Warden class in multiple forms, but mainly Stamina DPS and Tank. For the purposes of this post, we will be discussing Stamina Warden, or at least whatever remains of that post-hybridization changes, and let me jump out and say I fully supported those changes and still do. I think, overall, they were best for the health of the game.

However, for us to accurately discuss and assess the Warden changes over time, we're going to have to travel back a long way. Very long. All the way back to 2018, and that's where we'll begin, with a patch note from the Murkmire DLC.

4.2.5 - Murkmire (10/2018)



One of the first instances I had seen as a Warden player in ESO where the developers actually listened to our criticism. It is true while other classes had a litany of ultimates to choose from that allowed them to thrive in single target or AoE fights, Wardens were chained to the bear and had no other option without completely destroying their DPS. This change, while not a wholesale fix, did assist and allowed us to drift out to other ultimates from time to time without feeling as though playing Warden was just a waste of time.
However, while this change was good on its face, less than a year later...

5.1.5 - Scalebreaker (08/2019)


Scalebreaker released. Here, we see the change to the Warden passive that was intended to assist us in moving away from the bear reverted. Any guesses at what wasn't reverted? That's correct! The changes to the bear. So now, instead of a full revert of this direction choice, they elected to revert only this change, and keep the THIRTY PERCENT bear nerf in the game.
Now, let's jump forward a bit to Dragonhold, which featured easily one of the most unpopular design decisions I have ever seen handed to a class in an MMO, and I've been playing MMOs for around 25 years.

5.2.5 - Dragonhold DLC (10/2019)


This change...I just...I can't even. I have no idea who dreamed up this dumpster fire of a skill change, but it was awful at conception and aged like milk. The bleed being chained to off-balance which has wildly varied uptimes depending on group composition and carries a weird timer compared to ESO skills that resulted in players having to alter their entire rotation and timing pattern just to make this skill not be terrible.

For myself and most other Wardens I knew, we largely dropped the skill entirely because while the damage was higher if you juggled and danced around the obnoxious timers, you could pull perfectly solid numbers without ever chucking a birb at anyone. I didn't really know a single Warden player that liked it. I still don't.

8.1.5 - Lost Depths DLC (08/2022)


This developer decision is a two-part problem.

1. On the subject of Cutting Dive, it took nearly THREE YEARS for a grossly unpopular decision to be reworked into something resembling a useable skill. That is a ridiculously long timeline to leave a class' core spammable rotting in the basement, though I guess Sorcs and DKs know how we felt.

2. Easily the second most unpopular change Warden ever received. ESO is a weird game in that stats can have pretty wildly different gains based on a lot of small factors. However, armor penetration is a stat with a very clear, concise cap that is largely useless in structured, optimized content, leaving this a change exclusively for PVP and Overland, which makes little sense, considering this was, as a developer at Zos even said, the "band-aid" that was holding the class up.

8.2.5 - Firesong DLC (10/2022)


Oh, look. Yet another Advanced Species change, and yet, no improvement. Similarly to the above problem, Critical Damage is another stat with a very clear, concise cap that offers no benefit once you've reached it. In optimized group content, it is ridiculously easy to reach crit damage cap, especially as medium armor has become more and more desired as the "main" armor weight, and already carries crit damage.

Scribes of Fate DLC (03/2023)


Finally, our last snippet here. This change made sense, the issue is, it didn't really help the skill. It just became a "cast it occasionally if you feel like it" DoT that didn't really serve in any meaningful way as a "spammable".

DISCUSSION:
The issues with Warden are deep and long-running. To a veteran Warden main, I would almost believed a conspiracy theory that there are two dev teams that take turns at making patches, one notices Wardens exist and want to throw them an occasional bone, and the other wants to delete the class entirely but can't quite convince the suits that it's worth it.

Now, I don't really PVP. I don't particularly enjoy PVP in ESO. However, I understand Warden has been a strong class in PVP most of its life since release, and I respect that. Having said that, many of these changes have little to nothing to do with PVP and only affect the PVE side of things. Those are the most mind-boggling to me.

The indecision and inconsistentcy applied to Warden is genuinely awe-inspiring. From nerfing the class' ultimate to apply damage elsewhere and open up the options they have, to reverting that not even a year later and failing to revert the changes that pushed it. That isn't a mistake, that's legitimately just developer malpractice.

And I don't say all this to attack or vilify the devs - in fact, quite the opposite. I am hoping, with some small shred of me that still believes Zos gives a damn about the Warden class, that it might inspire someone inside the dev team to actually go back and give Warden a strong look, and perhaps view them as more than a healer in PVE, which they've been stuck in as a role nearly since release, aside from various points where tanks were solid.

I'd like to take a moment here to compare some passives, because I think when you actually sit down and take a good look at damage passives, the problems begin to crawl out of the darkness.

NECROMANCER:
⦁ Increases your critical strike chance against enemies under 25% health by 8% for each Gravelord ability slotted.
⦁ While a Gravelord ability is active, your spell and physical penetration are increased by 1500.
⦁ Increases your damage done with damage over time effects by 10%.
⦁ When you use an ability on a corpse, you generate 10 Ultimate. This effect can occur once every 16 seconds.

TEMPLAR:
⦁ Increases Weapon and Spell Damage by 6% and Physical and Spell Resistance by 1320.
⦁ When you deal damage you generate a stack of Burning Light for 3 seconds. After reaching 4 stacks, you deal 898 Magic Damage to your target. This effect can stack once every half second.
⦁ Increase your Critical Damage by 10%
⦁ Casting a Dawn's Wrath ability grants Minor Sorcery to you and your group for 20 seconds, increasing your Spell Damage by 10%.
⦁ Casting a Dawn's Wrath ability generates 3 Ultimate. This effect can occur once every 6 seconds.

DRAGON KNIGHT:
⦁ Increases the damage of your Flame and Poison attacks by 5%.
⦁ Increases the damage of Fiery Breath, Searing Strike, and Dragonknight Standard abilities by 25% and the duration by 4 seconds.
⦁ Increases the damage of Burning and Poison status effects by 50%.
⦁ When you cast an Earthen Heart ability, you and your group members gain Minor Brutality for 20 seconds, increasing your Weapon Damage 10%
⦁ If you are in combat, you also gain 3 Ultimate. This can only occur once every 6 seconds.

NIGHTBLADE:
⦁ Increases damage dealt by Critical Damage done by 10%.
⦁ Dealing Critical Damage grants you and your group Minor Savagery, increasing Weapon Critical Strike rating by 1320 for 20 seconds.
⦁ Increases your Weapon and Spell Critical ratings by 438 for each Assassination ability slotted.
⦁ Increases your Physical and Spell Penetration against enemies you are flanking by 2974.
⦁ Activating a Siphoning ability grants 2 Ultimate. This effect has a 4 second cooldown.
⦁ After drinking a potion you gain 20 Ultimate.
⦁ Increases Max Magicka by 8% while a Siphoning ability is slotted.

SORCEROR:
⦁ Reduces the cost of Ultimate abilities by 15%.
⦁ Activating a Dark Magic ability grants Minor Prophecy to nearby allies, increasing Spell Critical rating by 1314 for 20 seconds.
⦁ Increases Spell Damage and Weapon Damage by 2% for each Sorcerer ability slotted.
⦁ Increases your damage done against enemies by 1% for every 10% current Health they have.
⦁ Increases your Physical and Shock Damage by 5%.

ARCANIST:
⦁ When you are restored Magicka or Stamina, increase your Weapon and Spell Damage by 5% for 10 seconds.
⦁ Your attacks wound the mind with heretical knowledge, increasing damage dealt by Status Effects by 15% and Status Effect Chance by 75%.
⦁ Increase your Physical and Spell Penetration by 991 per Herald of the Tome ability slotted.
⦁ When you consume Crux, gain 4 Ultimate. This effect can occur once every 8 seconds.

WARDEN:
⦁ When you cast an Animal Companions ability while you are in combat, you generate 4 Ultimate. This effect can occur every 8 seconds.
⦁ Increases your Critical Damage by 4% for each Animal Companion ability slotted.
⦁ Increases your damage done by 2%, which increases to 12% when wielding an Ice Staff.
⦁ Increase chance of applying Chilled to enemies with Winter's Embrace abilities by 200%. Increases the damage of your Chilled status effect by (x). This effect scales off your highest offensive stats.

The reason I posted all of this is for comparison. I vividly remember, when the Warden passive that gave flat damage was altered from flat damage to Penetration, and then eventually critical damage, the core reasoning was the developers sought to move away from large, flat damage percentage gains.

Fair enough, then why not convert it to Animal Companion skill damage? Or Bleed + Frost damage? Or Physical + Frost? Why are other passives still working off flat damage percentage gains, yet Warden gets shoehorned into a stat with a very clear maximum and little to no upside?

Why is the largest Warden damage gain chained to a specific weapon? No other class in the game is saddled with such requirements.

In fact, Warden is the only class in the game where a specific specialization is required to apply their "Unique Class Buff" with any consistency. Any DK can slot armaments and give the buff to their group with a single cast, no other requirements necessary. Nightblades simply have to crit once. Templars must only cast any ability from a given tree, same with Sorceror.
Why, then, are Wardens required to actively heal a specific target to apply their buff? Why not cast any skill from a given tree? Why not when healing anyone, including yourself, it applies to the entire group? Why not give the option for Wardens other than healers to consistently, reliably apply their sole class buff? Especially considering the "procs can't proc procs" changes which removed even tanks from reliably applying it with altar.

Warden has received some of the most wildly inconsistent, nonsensically heavy "triggers" of any class in ESO. No other class has to jump through hoops to apply their core class buffs and self-buffs. No other class is locked into a damage bonus that requires a specific weapon type to function. No other class relies on a single status effect for massive chunks of their damage. No other class requires a double bar ultimate pet to function at even a decent level.

I've been playing Warden for a long, long time. I actually have a screenshot saved of a DM I sent to @Zos_Gina on Discord, showing logs for an ENTIRE PATCH CYCLE where I was the only Stamina Warden in vSS HM at all. Not a week. Not a month. An entire patch cycle.

I'm not asking to be top DPS. In fact, I've rolled my Arcanist and I will probably ride it until the nerf hammer crushes it into the ground. But come on, Zos. You can do better. Warden deserves better. The first DLC class has spent more time in the basement than is in any way deserving.

I understand Warden can be suffocating in PVP, but there's plenty of places to alter/buff Warden that have little to no impact on PVP. In fact, you just released a Mythic that chains a damage buff to solely work against monsters - what a wonderous idea, I can't imagine where that could be used here.

TL;DR: Warden DPS, especially the "stam" variant, is in a not good place, and hasn't been for a while. It's sad and completely avoidable. The changes to the class have been wildly inconsistent, often hypocritical to previous changes or overall "design standards" and have left a class crippled.

Sincerely,
Bjorn

erdYrrson

I am updating this one point in your list, but only because I felt the consequences of this change on my rather average overland Dragonknight, still sturdy, less damage... my enemies are dying of old age ;D

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

[...]
DRAGON KNIGHT:
[...]
⦁ Increases the damage of Burning and Poison status effects by 50%.
[...]

Reduced in Patch 39
"Combustion: Reduced the damage bonus this passive provides to Burning and Poisoned status effects to 12/33%, down from 25/50%."
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/641025/pc-mac-patch-notes-v9-1-5-update-39

As said, no nitpicking, it just nags me...

ESO_CenturionPlayer

“TL;DR: Warden DPS, especially the "stam" variant, is in a not good place, and hasn't been for a while. It's sad and completely avoidable. The changes to the class have been wildly inconsistent, often hypocritical to previous changes or overall "design standards" and have left a class crippled.”

warden was the first pay-to-win-class that has been nerfed to the ground outside of healing.

the first nerf was made to entice folks into buying the new necro class. then, they did the EXACT same to necro’s so everyone would buy the next pay-to-win class of the moment, Arcanist.

while doing so, the only two viable free classes have been DK’s and NB’s. there seems to be no dev’s playing Templar or Sorcs. In fact, I don’t think the Devs play this game at all.

Skullstachio

Just gonna tag @ESO_Nightingale as they are a warden main to my knowledge and may be able to offer some insight.

And honestly, Stamina wardens could use a touchup.

ESO_Nightingale

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

Hi, I'm Bjorn. I began my ESO journey shortly before the Morrowind expansion dropped. Since then, I have mained the Warden class in multiple forms, but mainly Stamina DPS and Tank. For the purposes of this post, we will be discussing Stamina Warden, or at least whatever remains of that post-hybridization changes, and let me jump out and say I fully supported those changes and still do. I think, overall, they were best for the health of the game.

However, for us to accurately discuss and assess the Warden changes over time, we're going to have to travel back a long way. Very long. All the way back to 2018, and that's where we'll begin, with a patch note from the Murkmire DLC.

4.2.5 - Murkmire (10/2018)



One of the first instances I had seen as a Warden player in ESO where the developers actually listened to our criticism. It is true while other classes had a litany of ultimates to choose from that allowed them to thrive in single target or AoE fights, Wardens were chained to the bear and had no other option without completely destroying their DPS. This change, while not a wholesale fix, did assist and allowed us to drift out to other ultimates from time to time without feeling as though playing Warden was just a waste of time.
However, while this change was good on its face, less than a year later...

5.1.5 - Scalebreaker (08/2019)


Scalebreaker released. Here, we see the change to the Warden passive that was intended to assist us in moving away from the bear reverted. Any guesses at what wasn't reverted? That's correct! The changes to the bear. So now, instead of a full revert of this direction choice, they elected to revert only this change, and keep the THIRTY PERCENT bear nerf in the game.
Now, let's jump forward a bit to Dragonhold, which featured easily one of the most unpopular design decisions I have ever seen handed to a class in an MMO, and I've been playing MMOs for around 25 years.

5.2.5 - Dragonhold DLC (10/2019)


This change...I just...I can't even. I have no idea who dreamed up this dumpster fire of a skill change, but it was awful at conception and aged like milk. The bleed being chained to off-balance which has wildly varied uptimes depending on group composition and carries a weird timer compared to ESO skills that resulted in players having to alter their entire rotation and timing pattern just to make this skill not be terrible.

For myself and most other Wardens I knew, we largely dropped the skill entirely because while the damage was higher if you juggled and danced around the obnoxious timers, you could pull perfectly solid numbers without ever chucking a birb at anyone. I didn't really know a single Warden player that liked it. I still don't.

8.1.5 - Lost Depths DLC (08/2022)


This developer decision is a two-part problem.

1. On the subject of Cutting Dive, it took nearly THREE YEARS for a grossly unpopular decision to be reworked into something resembling a useable skill. That is a ridiculously long timeline to leave a class' core spammable rotting in the basement, though I guess Sorcs and DKs know how we felt.

2. Easily the second most unpopular change Warden ever received. ESO is a weird game in that stats can have pretty wildly different gains based on a lot of small factors. However, armor penetration is a stat with a very clear, concise cap that is largely useless in structured, optimized content, leaving this a change exclusively for PVP and Overland, which makes little sense, considering this was, as a developer at Zos even said, the "band-aid" that was holding the class up.

8.2.5 - Firesong DLC (10/2022)


Oh, look. Yet another Advanced Species change, and yet, no improvement. Similarly to the above problem, Critical Damage is another stat with a very clear, concise cap that offers no benefit once you've reached it. In optimized group content, it is ridiculously easy to reach crit damage cap, especially as medium armor has become more and more desired as the "main" armor weight, and already carries crit damage.

Scribes of Fate DLC (03/2023)


Finally, our last snippet here. This change made sense, the issue is, it didn't really help the skill. It just became a "cast it occasionally if you feel like it" DoT that didn't really serve in any meaningful way as a "spammable".

DISCUSSION:
The issues with Warden are deep and long-running. To a veteran Warden main, I would almost believed a conspiracy theory that there are two dev teams that take turns at making patches, one notices Wardens exist and want to throw them an occasional bone, and the other wants to delete the class entirely but can't quite convince the suits that it's worth it.

Now, I don't really PVP. I don't particularly enjoy PVP in ESO. However, I understand Warden has been a strong class in PVP most of its life since release, and I respect that. Having said that, many of these changes have little to nothing to do with PVP and only affect the PVE side of things. Those are the most mind-boggling to me.

The indecision and inconsistentcy applied to Warden is genuinely awe-inspiring. From nerfing the class' ultimate to apply damage elsewhere and open up the options they have, to reverting that not even a year later and failing to revert the changes that pushed it. That isn't a mistake, that's legitimately just developer malpractice.

And I don't say all this to attack or vilify the devs - in fact, quite the opposite. I am hoping, with some small shred of me that still believes Zos gives a damn about the Warden class, that it might inspire someone inside the dev team to actually go back and give Warden a strong look, and perhaps view them as more than a healer in PVE, which they've been stuck in as a role nearly since release, aside from various points where tanks were solid.

I'd like to take a moment here to compare some passives, because I think when you actually sit down and take a good look at damage passives, the problems begin to crawl out of the darkness.

NECROMANCER:
⦁ Increases your critical strike chance against enemies under 25% health by 8% for each Gravelord ability slotted.
⦁ While a Gravelord ability is active, your spell and physical penetration are increased by 1500.
⦁ Increases your damage done with damage over time effects by 10%.
⦁ When you use an ability on a corpse, you generate 10 Ultimate. This effect can occur once every 16 seconds.

TEMPLAR:
⦁ Increases Weapon and Spell Damage by 6% and Physical and Spell Resistance by 1320.
⦁ When you deal damage you generate a stack of Burning Light for 3 seconds. After reaching 4 stacks, you deal 898 Magic Damage to your target. This effect can stack once every half second.
⦁ Increase your Critical Damage by 10%
⦁ Casting a Dawn's Wrath ability grants Minor Sorcery to you and your group for 20 seconds, increasing your Spell Damage by 10%.
⦁ Casting a Dawn's Wrath ability generates 3 Ultimate. This effect can occur once every 6 seconds.

DRAGON KNIGHT:
⦁ Increases the damage of your Flame and Poison attacks by 5%.
⦁ Increases the damage of Fiery Breath, Searing Strike, and Dragonknight Standard abilities by 25% and the duration by 4 seconds.
⦁ Increases the damage of Burning and Poison status effects by 50%.
⦁ When you cast an Earthen Heart ability, you and your group members gain Minor Brutality for 20 seconds, increasing your Weapon Damage 10%
⦁ If you are in combat, you also gain 3 Ultimate. This can only occur once every 6 seconds.

NIGHTBLADE:
⦁ Increases damage dealt by Critical Damage done by 10%.
⦁ Dealing Critical Damage grants you and your group Minor Savagery, increasing Weapon Critical Strike rating by 1320 for 20 seconds.
⦁ Increases your Weapon and Spell Critical ratings by 438 for each Assassination ability slotted.
⦁ Increases your Physical and Spell Penetration against enemies you are flanking by 2974.
⦁ Activating a Siphoning ability grants 2 Ultimate. This effect has a 4 second cooldown.
⦁ After drinking a potion you gain 20 Ultimate.
⦁ Increases Max Magicka by 8% while a Siphoning ability is slotted.

SORCEROR:
⦁ Reduces the cost of Ultimate abilities by 15%.
⦁ Activating a Dark Magic ability grants Minor Prophecy to nearby allies, increasing Spell Critical rating by 1314 for 20 seconds.
⦁ Increases Spell Damage and Weapon Damage by 2% for each Sorcerer ability slotted.
⦁ Increases your damage done against enemies by 1% for every 10% current Health they have.
⦁ Increases your Physical and Shock Damage by 5%.

ARCANIST:
⦁ When you are restored Magicka or Stamina, increase your Weapon and Spell Damage by 5% for 10 seconds.
⦁ Your attacks wound the mind with heretical knowledge, increasing damage dealt by Status Effects by 15% and Status Effect Chance by 75%.
⦁ Increase your Physical and Spell Penetration by 991 per Herald of the Tome ability slotted.
⦁ When you consume Crux, gain 4 Ultimate. This effect can occur once every 8 seconds.

WARDEN:
⦁ When you cast an Animal Companions ability while you are in combat, you generate 4 Ultimate. This effect can occur every 8 seconds.
⦁ Increases your Critical Damage by 4% for each Animal Companion ability slotted.
⦁ Increases your damage done by 2%, which increases to 12% when wielding an Ice Staff.
⦁ Increase chance of applying Chilled to enemies with Winter's Embrace abilities by 200%. Increases the damage of your Chilled status effect by (x). This effect scales off your highest offensive stats.

The reason I posted all of this is for comparison. I vividly remember, when the Warden passive that gave flat damage was altered from flat damage to Penetration, and then eventually critical damage, the core reasoning was the developers sought to move away from large, flat damage percentage gains.

Fair enough, then why not convert it to Animal Companion skill damage? Or Bleed + Frost damage? Or Physical + Frost? Why are other passives still working off flat damage percentage gains, yet Warden gets shoehorned into a stat with a very clear maximum and little to no upside?

Why is the largest Warden damage gain chained to a specific weapon? No other class in the game is saddled with such requirements.

In fact, Warden is the only class in the game where a specific specialization is required to apply their "Unique Class Buff" with any consistency. Any DK can slot armaments and give the buff to their group with a single cast, no other requirements necessary. Nightblades simply have to crit once. Templars must only cast any ability from a given tree, same with Sorceror.
Why, then, are Wardens required to actively heal a specific target to apply their buff? Why not cast any skill from a given tree? Why not when healing anyone, including yourself, it applies to the entire group? Why not give the option for Wardens other than healers to consistently, reliably apply their sole class buff? Especially considering the "procs can't proc procs" changes which removed even tanks from reliably applying it with altar.

Warden has received some of the most wildly inconsistent, nonsensically heavy "triggers" of any class in ESO. No other class has to jump through hoops to apply their core class buffs and self-buffs. No other class is locked into a damage bonus that requires a specific weapon type to function. No other class relies on a single status effect for massive chunks of their damage. No other class requires a double bar ultimate pet to function at even a decent level.

I've been playing Warden for a long, long time. I actually have a screenshot saved of a DM I sent to @Zos_Gina on Discord, showing logs for an ENTIRE PATCH CYCLE where I was the only Stamina Warden in vSS HM at all. Not a week. Not a month. An entire patch cycle.

I'm not asking to be top DPS. In fact, I've rolled my Arcanist and I will probably ride it until the nerf hammer crushes it into the ground. But come on, Zos. You can do better. Warden deserves better. The first DLC class has spent more time in the basement than is in any way deserving.

I understand Warden can be suffocating in PVP, but there's plenty of places to alter/buff Warden that have little to no impact on PVP. In fact, you just released a Mythic that chains a damage buff to solely work against monsters - what a wonderous idea, I can't imagine where that could be used here.

TL;DR: Warden DPS, especially the "stam" variant, is in a not good place, and hasn't been for a while. It's sad and completely avoidable. The changes to the class have been wildly inconsistent, often hypocritical to previous changes or overall "design standards" and have left a class crippled.

Sincerely,
Bjorn

Hey man, i agree. We really do have to jump through so many hoops in order to achieve what other classes can especially regarding our passives and utility.
I firmly remember the piercing cold change to 2% increased damage which increases to 12% with a frost staff equipped. Their solution to frost warden's desire to exist was far too heavy handed in the direction of frost warden that everything else suffered. Instead of making it a weapon you use because it's the best on a frost damage dealer build, it is instead a weapon that many people feel like they're pressured into using due to the absurdly weak state of the passives. There needs to be a middle ground achieved with this.
That being said, chilled being as strong as it is, is fine, before it was a very weak status effect when it came to damage output and now it's a cornerstone of the warden playstyle due to our sheer application rate of it even outside of the ice staff. Both hemo and chilled are very potent on warden, but bleed damage isn't incentivised in the passives like it should be.

I wish they had changed piercing cold to increased bleed and frost damage, maybe with the frost damage increasing further with an ice staff equipped to help give it the necessary power to stand out.

Zodiarkslayer

Nice reference to Dr. Strangelove! Awesome.

I agree with almost everything. But, I draw a different conclusion.
The thing holding back Stamina Warden most is PvP. Nothing else.
Most nerfy changes have come after a time that Wardens have been at or close to the top of the food chain. And consequently brought Wardens back on their knees. Either because the burst was too high or there were interactions with the latest META sets that enabled them to be too powerful.

In my opinion the current implementation of PvP holds the entire game back, but that's a different conversation.

Skjaldbjorn

Zodiarkslayer wrote: »

Nice reference to Dr. Strangelove! Awesome.

I agree with almost everything. But, I draw a different conclusion.
The thing holding back Stamina Warden most is PvP. Nothing else.
Most nerfy changes have come after a time that Wardens have been at or close to the top of the food chain. And consequently brought Wardens back on their knees. Either because the burst was too high or there were interactions with the latest META sets that enabled them to be too powerful.

In my opinion the current implementation of PvP holds the entire game back, but that's a different conversation.

While I agree that a lot of changes were the result of PVP, the wildly inconsistent and ignorant bear timeline has nothing to do with PVP. No one with a functional brain ever ran the bear there lol.

ESO_CenturionPlayer

Zodiarkslayer wrote: »

Nice reference to Dr. Strangelove! Awesome.

I agree with almost everything. But, I draw a different conclusion.
The thing holding back Stamina Warden most is PvP. Nothing else.
Most nerfy changes have come after a time that Wardens have been at or close to the top of the food chain. And consequently brought Wardens back on their knees. Either because the burst was too high or there were interactions with the latest META sets that enabled them to be too powerful.

In my opinion the current implementation of PvP holds the entire game back, but that's a different conversation.

PvP implementation? What are you talking about? Nothing new is ever designed for PvP. We get random sets every year or so.

We just get the corrective patch scraps usually. It’s not for our benefit, it’s just fixing something that screwed up PvP in the most recent PvE changes.

Skjaldbjorn

PART TWO: Fixing "Stam"den In Three Easy Steps

Step 1: Cutting Dive Rework

1. Overhaul to a melee spammable
2. New name: Tear Asunder (obviously just a placeholder)
3. Deals x bleed damage to a single target, applies a single stack debuff that lasts for 4s
4. Debuff increases bleed damage taken from all sources by x%
5. This flips it into a diet Stonefist style debuff to increase overall Warden value in optimized groups

Step 2: Advanced Species Rework

1. Increases damage done to monsters by x%
2. Increases the critical strike chance of bleeds by 10% and hemmorhage will always critically strike

Step 3: Piercing Cold Addendum

1. Bring back the increased Critical Damage vs recently chilled targets to compensate for the loss of the stat in the Advanced Species passive. Lower uptime, lower ceiling to balance.

BONUS: Maturation Rework

1. When you heal yourself or an ally, you grant all group members within 12m Minor Toughness for 20s.

And for the love of god make wings apply its buff to both bars like the slew of other skills you already gave the Arcanist treatment.

Jazraena

Zodiarkslayer wrote: »

Nice reference to Dr. Strangelove! Awesome.

I agree with almost everything. But, I draw a different conclusion.
The thing holding back Stamina Warden most is PvP. Nothing else.
Most nerfy changes have come after a time that Wardens have been at or close to the top of the food chain. And consequently brought Wardens back on their knees. Either because the burst was too high or there were interactions with the latest META sets that enabled them to be too powerful.

In my opinion the current implementation of PvP holds the entire game back, but that's a different conversation.

Honestly, if you ask me? The thing holding back Warden the most is that there is no solid concept for the Warden. Not in fluff background, not in gameplay design. It's just a very weird collection of abilities that people try to make something useful out of, and the most functional builds tend to go against the themes people see in it. ZOS then tried to accomodate the frost mages people evidently wanted, and it has further complicated the issue without solidly fulfilling that desire still.

merpins

In 2013 and 2014, when the game was in beta and first released, I played two classes. These were NB and Templar. I mained NB, since I loved the ranged Swallow Soul skill. Mained it until 2017, when the skill got nerfed into the ground and never touched NB again.

Then I had two characters I played, my new main and old secondary the Templar, and my new secondary Warden. Stam warden specifically. This was the case all the way up until U35 took away my second favorite skill in the game, Jabs. Its animation change is what made me drop Templar and swap to my secondary as my main. That being my Warden. I've never liked how Cliffracer feels to use, but I do love the rest of the stam kit.

I agree whole heartedly with the majority your statements here. Stam warden really poses no problem in PVP right now, in fact it's pretty bad in PVP, and is the single lowest tooltip class in the game for PVE. I can still kinda do end game levels of damage, but to do so I have to use proc sets that everyone else uses for everything rather than sets that used to be BiS for Stam Warden (like Dro'Zakar or Blooddrinker). I have to use weapon skills as my main spammable, Wrecking Blow, Flurry, or Snipe, or else I don't see even okay damage. Even then, I don't come close to the end game levels of damage I do on my Arcanist. It's well under the damage that most end game builds do in PVE.

Could I do good damage both in PVE and PVP if I spec my warden to Magicka and swap to an ice staff? Sure, but I do not like how that feels to play. I like Stam Warden. It used to be be pretty good. But now it suffers the same problem that Nightblade faces. It's too good in PVP, so they can't buff it in PVE. Even if its terrible, it's stuck in this state because if it's buffed, PVP players will complain... Justifiably so, but nonetheless, it prevents actual good changes from being done to classes that need them. Look at Sorcerer, Nightblade, Warden... They're in not great if terrible spots in PVE because they're pretty good in PVP.

I've suggested changes that can help put Stam Warden back in a good spot. Adding more bleed damage skills to their kit was one, but it only really helps if they get a bunch of dots. Even the recent Maelstrom 2h change was a nerf to this playstyle. It still results in a buff to your damage, but it harms Stam Warden in the long run, as it removes yet another source of bleed from the game. Personally I'm not upset about the requirement for the Bear ult to be double barred, but having class damage be locked behind a specific weapon is terrible. Play how you want? Laughable.

El_Borracho

Others have said it, but the original ideation of warden was so powerful in PVP that players decried it as "pay to win" and making other classes a far second tier. For a long, long time, PVP was sub assault, sub assault, sub assault, sub assault. Most believed it would never be nerfed because it was locked behind a paywall. Oh, how they were wrong.

The changes to warden have been so bad that it still feels clunky, delayed, sluggish, etc. in PVE, especially compared to something like Templar. I only use mine for tanking and healing because I can't stand the game play with it. Which, ironically, has made warden now reviled in PVP because it IS so strong at healing and tankiness so we have 40K cheese wardens.

I would love for wardens to be reworked into a manageable class that is not just cosmetics. Its a great platform to do that. However, as seen with necros, the only plan seems to be to destroy classes to build others up. Which, not coincidentally, also started life as amazing in PVP.

But I'm sure the same will not happen to Arcanists....

merpins

El_Borracho wrote: »

But I'm sure the same will not happen to Arcanists....

right? Arcanists basically have one thing going for them as a DPS: Beam. So it's the only thing worth hitting with nerfs if they wanna nerf damage... And if they did, it would be a dead class. Hopefully doesn't happen.

El_Borracho

merpins wrote: »

El_Borracho wrote: »

But I'm sure the same will not happen to Arcanists....

right? Arcanists basically have one thing going for them as a DPS: Beam. So it's the only thing worth hitting with nerfs if they wanna nerf damage... And if they did, it would be a dead class. Hopefully doesn't happen.

The only saving grace is that Arcanists are pretty meh in PVP so they don't incur the wrath of the "I was killed by [FILL IN BLANK] so it must be nerfed into oblivion." But the moment someone figures out a PVP Arcanist build that melts all, the class will be in real trouble.

LOL. Yeah right. Once a new class comes up in a year or two, Arcanist will feel like a kid playing with a flashlight.

Skjaldbjorn

El_Borracho wrote: »

merpins wrote: »

El_Borracho wrote: »

But I'm sure the same will not happen to Arcanists....

right? Arcanists basically have one thing going for them as a DPS: Beam. So it's the only thing worth hitting with nerfs if they wanna nerf damage... And if they did, it would be a dead class. Hopefully doesn't happen.

The only saving grace is that Arcanists are pretty meh in PVP so they don't incur the wrath of the "I was killed by [FILL IN BLANK] so it must be nerfed into oblivion." But the moment someone figures out a PVP Arcanist build that melts all, the class will be in real trouble.

LOL. Yeah right. Once a new class comes up in a year or two, Arcanist will feel like a kid playing with a flashlight.

While I fundamentally agree it's probably true that Arcanist will end up in a bad spot, at least DPS-wise, it's going to take a lot of time. Wardens, as far as I can recall, were never dominant in PVE content. Even in periods where Stamden was quite good, it still perpetually struggled to compete with the top 1-2. Arcanist and Necro both were astoundingly dominant at release.

Oblivion_Protocol

El_Borracho wrote: »

The only saving grace is that Arcanists are pretty meh in PVP so they don't incur the wrath of the "I was killed by [FILL IN BLANK] so it must be nerfed into oblivion." But the moment someone figures out a PVP Arcanist build that melts all, the class will be in real trouble.

LOL. Yeah right. Once a new class comes up in a year or two, Arcanist will feel like a kid playing with a flashlight.

Umm, there’s a thread on forums crying about how the Deathmatch BG weekend event is being ruined by Arcanists that disagrees with your assessment, lol.

Skjaldbjorn

Oblivion_Protocol wrote: »

El_Borracho wrote: »

The only saving grace is that Arcanists are pretty meh in PVP so they don't incur the wrath of the "I was killed by [FILL IN BLANK] so it must be nerfed into oblivion." But the moment someone figures out a PVP Arcanist build that melts all, the class will be in real trouble.

LOL. Yeah right. Once a new class comes up in a year or two, Arcanist will feel like a kid playing with a flashlight.

Umm, there’s a thread on forums crying about how the Deathmatch BG weekend event is being ruined by Arcanists that disagrees with your assessment, lol.

Funny story, I rolled an Arcanist over the last couple weeks, no idea what I was doing, PVE gear, and have absolutely dominated every BG I've been in. The damage is absurd. People just melt.

Turtle_Bot

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

Oblivion_Protocol wrote: »

El_Borracho wrote: »

The only saving grace is that Arcanists are pretty meh in PVP so they don't incur the wrath of the "I was killed by [FILL IN BLANK] so it must be nerfed into oblivion." But the moment someone figures out a PVP Arcanist build that melts all, the class will be in real trouble.

LOL. Yeah right. Once a new class comes up in a year or two, Arcanist will feel like a kid playing with a flashlight.

Umm, there’s a thread on forums crying about how the Deathmatch BG weekend event is being ruined by Arcanists that disagrees with your assessment, lol.

Funny story, I rolled an Arcanist over the last couple weeks, no idea what I was doing, PVE gear, and have absolutely dominated every BG I've been in. The damage is absurd. People just melt.

Not to mention how crazy tanky Arcanist is.

It honestly felt like cheating when I was playing the class in BGs a couple of months ago, even without vamp undeath passive I was easily surviving/winning 4+v1 for ages in BGs where there's no CP to carry mitigation. There was also no loss of damage whenever I got the chance to go on the offense either.

My main (magsorc) just doesn't feel anywhere near as complete in combat as arcanist does and both classes are supposed to have wards (shields) as their main form of defense instead of heals.
Even when I played the meta proc stamsorc build (masters DW, vate frost, maarselok, WoF) it only barely feels comparable to arcanist overall (and only because it significantly outshines arcanist offensively)

It doesn't help that the arcanist stun is bugged and you cannot break free from it either. Something that should have been fixed when it was first brought to the attention of ZOS months ago and the main part of the reason I'm not playing my arcanist at the moment, it just feels like using the stun while its bugged like it currently is can potentially get you reported for intentional bug abuse considering how well known the issue is...

Anyway, back on topic, I'd love to see some changes to stamden.

stam shulks should do bleed damage instead of poison damage, and apply the hemorrhage and minor (or major) breach status effects. It should have its damage on both hits increased by about 10% as well since its second hit doesn't have any increased damage. This still leaves its second hit about 25% weaker than mag morphs second hit, not accounting for breach (and only 1 breach instead of both) but the first hit would be slightly stronger (about 10%).

Dive projectile should travel faster. I like the idea behind it of bringing a cliff racer down to damage an enemy, but it travels too slow currently.
Mag morph should deal frost damage. Both morphs guarantee their respective damage types status effects (chill and hemorrhage) instead of only against off balance enemies.

Fetcher flies are close, I'd make the mag morph deal frost damage (fit the theme better) and make both morphs grant +5% damage taken by their respective damage types (so mag morph grants +5% frost damage taken by enemies affected by that morph, stam morph grants +5% bleed damage taken by enemies affected by that morph)
This way wardens have a similar secondary effect to increase their themed damage types to the DKs flame breath.

For the advanced species passive, maybe have it do +1%/+2% crit damage, +1%/+2% crit chance and +1%/+2% damage done with bleed and frost abilities per slotted animal companions ability.
With crit damage being capped just like the original pen stat, spreading some of the power from this passive from crit damage to damage done and crit chance would help since it adds a small bit to the uncapped stats while reducing the risk of going over the cap on crit damage, especially considering how high uptime there is on brittle for wardens compared to other classes.

For the piercing cold passive, the gap in power should have been brought closer together from the start.
Instead of making it +1/2% damage done that increases to 6/12% with frost staff equipped, it should've had +3%/6% damage done, this increases to +6%/12% when a frost staff is equipped. This way frost staff wardens still get their themed bonus, but other wardens don't miss out on over 80% of the passives power.

These are just ideas, but would be neat to at least test them out see how they flow and feel to use and what type of damage this would grant for wardens.

Zodiarkslayer

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

For the advanced species passive, maybe have it do +1%/+2% crit damage, +1%/+2% crit chance and +1%/+2% damage done with bleed and frost abilities per slotted animal companions ability.
With crit damage being capped just like the original pen stat, spreading some of the power from this passive from crit damage to damage done and crit chance would help since it adds a small bit to the uncapped stats while reducing the risk of going over the cap on crit damage, especially considering how high uptime there is on brittle for wardens compared to other classes.

For the piercing cold passive, the gap in power should have been brought closer together from the start.
Instead of making it +1/2% damage done that increases to 6/12% with frost staff equipped, it should've had +3%/6% damage done, this increases to +6%/12% when a frost staff is equipped. This way frost staff wardens still get their themed bonus, but other wardens don't miss out on over 80% of the passives power.

That seems too powerful, considering that if you have four AC abilities (I have four, it's an example), you will have 14% damage done, 8% crit damage and 8% crit chance from both passives combined.
Even if they are supposed to be only applying to Bleed and Frost abilities, it is more than any 5pc set that I can think of.
Just think about how much damage Whorl of the Depth or Pillar of Nirn would do.

But I agree, both passives need better synergy with the classe's playstyles. And while we are talking about it, the entire class kit needs better synergy with Bleed and Frost damage.

It's the only way forward for the class.

Turtle_Bot

Zodiarkslayer wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

For the advanced species passive, maybe have it do +1%/+2% crit damage, +1%/+2% crit chance and +1%/+2% damage done with bleed and frost abilities per slotted animal companions ability.
With crit damage being capped just like the original pen stat, spreading some of the power from this passive from crit damage to damage done and crit chance would help since it adds a small bit to the uncapped stats while reducing the risk of going over the cap on crit damage, especially considering how high uptime there is on brittle for wardens compared to other classes.

For the piercing cold passive, the gap in power should have been brought closer together from the start.
Instead of making it +1/2% damage done that increases to 6/12% with frost staff equipped, it should've had +3%/6% damage done, this increases to +6%/12% when a frost staff is equipped. This way frost staff wardens still get their themed bonus, but other wardens don't miss out on over 80% of the passives power.

That seems too powerful, considering that if you have four AC abilities (I have four, it's an example), you will have 14% damage done, 8% crit damage and 8% crit chance from both passives combined.
Even if they are supposed to be only applying to Bleed and Frost abilities, it is more than any 5pc set that I can think of.
Just think about how much damage Whorl of the Depth or Pillar of Nirn would do.

But I agree, both passives need better synergy with the classe's playstyles. And while we are talking about it, the entire class kit needs better synergy with Bleed and Frost damage.

It's the only way forward for the class.

Agreed, its definitely strong, but gotta start somewhere and TBH, considering where wardens are (or aren't) on any of the dps leaderboards, I doubt that would put them ahead of DK/Arcanist for dps unless all of those changes I mentioned get done.

Also, FYI, the Frostbite set gives up to 14% damage done with frost abilities.



There's also the blooddrinker set that increases bleed damage attacks by 20%



The issue with these 2 sets specifically is that there's no good way to take advantage of them outside of frost staff wardens.

Yes, 14%/8%/8% damage done/crit chance/crit damage is definitely strong, but its not unheard of, there's already sets that come close to that total level of power that is spread across 2 passives.

Like I said, they are just ideas, numbers would be tweaked with testing (maybe make them halve their values against player enemies or have a cap on the AC passive that it caps at 6% max (3 skills slotted).

Skjaldbjorn

Here's a really fun exercise if you ever want to understand the relevance of a specific class/build in the PVE sphere - go to youtube or google and search, for example, "Stamina Warden DPS build PVE" and see how recent the most recent build video is.

I think the most recent one I could find that wasn't completely niche and not particularly viable across a broad spectrum of content was like 4+ months ago.

Content creators know how to get clicks, and it's by making videos about classes and builds that will generate revenue. They have to be meta relevant, or a "secret" build that brings weak classes up to even be worth the time and effort to create.

Really good way of in a split second determining where a specific "class" stands.

In other words, even content creators know Stamden is absolutely garbage and not worth even mentioning or making content about. It's so sad.

El_Borracho

Oblivion_Protocol wrote: »

El_Borracho wrote: »

The only saving grace is that Arcanists are pretty meh in PVP so they don't incur the wrath of the "I was killed by [FILL IN BLANK] so it must be nerfed into oblivion." But the moment someone figures out a PVP Arcanist build that melts all, the class will be in real trouble.

LOL. Yeah right. Once a new class comes up in a year or two, Arcanist will feel like a kid playing with a flashlight.

Umm, there’s a thread on forums crying about how the Deathmatch BG weekend event is being ruined by Arcanists that disagrees with your assessment, lol.

Dang it! At least it was in BGs, so that only upset all of the 30 players over there.

Skjaldbjorn

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

stam shulks should do bleed damage instead of poison damage, and apply the hemorrhage and minor (or major) breach status effects. It should have its damage on both hits increased by about 10% as well since its second hit doesn't have any increased damage. This still leaves its second hit about 25% weaker than mag morphs second hit, not accounting for breach (and only 1 breach instead of both) but the first hit would be slightly stronger (about 10%).

They've implied in the past they are hesitant to make *all* class skills from a specific type/field, for example Stam AC skills, all do one damage type. I can't recall where they said it or the context, but I swear I remember them saying that and suggesting they like to spread damage types around. I guess I get it, but I feel like it would be easier to balance and manage various % damage bonuses if they were tied to specific "elements".

SandandStars

Somebody further up the chain said he thinks the devs don’t play PVP. I think this too.

Except there is one guy, who sometimes plays, and when he does, he plays Nightblade.

I was a warden main in PVP for almost 3 years and recently quit. A magwarden.

It just seems like all of the changes the past couple of years, especially the way they affected PVP, were being made without much knowledge of how the game works in practice.

I think this is the answer to your well documented quandary about the strange D evolution of the warden class.

I really don’t think there is anyone that enjoys playing it at the company. So the changes are just wonky and don’t improve anything.

Skjaldbjorn

SandandStars wrote: »

Somebody further up the chain said he thinks the devs don’t play PVP. I think this too.

Except there is one guy, who sometimes plays, and when he does, he plays Nightblade.

I was a warden main in PVP for almost 3 years and recently quit. A magwarden.

It just seems like all of the changes the past couple of years, especially the way they affected PVP, were being made without much knowledge of how the game works in practice.

I think this is the answer to your well documented quandary about the strange D evolution of the warden class.

I really don’t think there is anyone that enjoys playing it at the company. So the changes are just wonky and don’t improve anything.

Again, I do think there is valid criticism that a lot of the changes to Warden over the years were PVP related for sure, they were suffocating there, but the bear change and even the bird bleed change really don't line up with that theory at all.

Skjaldbjorn

Gonna give this a gentle bump. Warden has still not seen any meaningful change in the last several patch cycles. Nightingale's post as well as this one highlight the issues well.

Darkstorne

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

Why is the largest Warden damage gain chained to a specific weapon? No other class in the game is saddled with such requirements.

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

I firmly remember the piercing cold change to 2% increased damage which increases to 12% with a frost staff equipped. Their solution to frost warden's desire to exist was far too heavy handed in the direction of frost warden that everything else suffered. Instead of making it a weapon you use because it's the best on a frost damage dealer build, it is instead a weapon that many people feel like they're pressured into using due to the absurdly weak state of the passives. There needs to be a middle ground achieved with this.

Yep, the forced Frost Staff is what bothers me the most. I adore my Frost Warden, and have two builds I switch between. A sword and shield tanky build with frozen watcher set and turning tide (making heavy use of gripping shards), and a two hander dps build with ice furnace set and winterborn (making heavy use of winter's revenge).

The Piercing Cold passive makes me really sad.

The THIRTY PERCENT damage buff to winter's revenge while a staff is equipped outright angers me. WHY IS THIS A THING!?

They need to read their own design doc for combat that talks about "playing your way", where any weapon style can be used with each class. I'm deliberately shafting my frost warden by not using a frost staff, because I like the idea of battle mages. They're a thing in TES, ZOS. You even had a great frost battle mage boss in the Orsinium DLC that wielded a two handed sword, Urfon Ice-Heart:


Please show non-staff frost wardens a little love, ZOS. This class's problems go far deeper than just stamina wardens imo.

Love, my sword and shield / two hander frost warden

SandandStars

When they adjust warden, you won’t like it.

Skjaldbjorn

I wish there was a :kekw: on the forums. Buff Chilled, then nerf all the Warden stuff around Chilled so it's an extremely miniscule overall gain that won't even remotely come close to pulling Warden out of the basement.

Skjaldbjorn

SandandStars wrote: »

When they adjust warden, you won’t like it.

Based on their history of completely hypocritical (to their own standards) and woefully poor changes, probably.

Skjaldbjorn

SandandStars wrote: »

When they adjust warden, you won’t like it.

Psst...you were very, very wrong.