nightblades out of control in pvp

StaticWave

Vaqual wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

You can't possibly defend this class at this point imo if a build with random gear pieces in blue quality can still match a proper golded out build.

You have shown for the 11th time that the same sources for additional WD add WD. This has changed my life.

And I’m showing how a NB in RANDOM BLUE GEARS still gets the same stats as many golded out builds with complete 5 piece sets and a mythic. No other class can achieve this feat lol. It’s ridiculous and idk why ur sarcastic about it.

Vaqual

StaticWave wrote: »

Vaqual wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

You can't possibly defend this class at this point imo if a build with random gear pieces in blue quality can still match a proper golded out build.

You have shown for the 11th time that the same sources for additional WD add WD. This has changed my life.

And I’m showing how a NB in RANDOM BLUE GEARS still gets the same stats as many golded out builds with complete 5 piece sets and a mythic. No other class can achieve this feat lol. It’s ridiculous and idk why ur sarcastic about it.

Because it feels a bit like an insult to the readers intelligence to repeat essentially the same thing over and over. NBs have access to abilities that give them a lot of stats and you are unhappy about it. I think everyone got that the first time.

StaticWave

Vaqual wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Vaqual wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

You can't possibly defend this class at this point imo if a build with random gear pieces in blue quality can still match a proper golded out build.

You have shown for the 11th time that the same sources for additional WD add WD. This has changed my life.

And I’m showing how a NB in RANDOM BLUE GEARS still gets the same stats as many golded out builds with complete 5 piece sets and a mythic. No other class can achieve this feat lol. It’s ridiculous and idk why ur sarcastic about it.

Because it feels a bit like an insult to the readers intelligence to repeat essentially the same thing over and over. NBs have access to abilities that give them a lot of stats and you are unhappy about it. I think everyone got that the first time.

So repeating an argument in different forms for new readers who just stumbled upon this thread is an insult to all readers' intelligence? Not many people understand just how strong NB is. If you do, that's good for you, but you don't speak for other people lol. I wasn't even directing my comments towards you.

Like I said, you can ignore it instead of making an irrelevant sarcastic comment, just like how I ignore many comments I don't want to respond to in many threads. My comments don't have any intention to insult the readers and if you feel insulted then honestly that's not my problem. It was actually never a problem to begin with until you made it so lol.

StaticWave

Vaqual wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Vaqual wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

You can't possibly defend this class at this point imo if a build with random gear pieces in blue quality can still match a proper golded out build.

You have shown for the 11th time that the same sources for additional WD add WD. This has changed my life.

And I’m showing how a NB in RANDOM BLUE GEARS still gets the same stats as many golded out builds with complete 5 piece sets and a mythic. No other class can achieve this feat lol. It’s ridiculous and idk why ur sarcastic about it.

Because it feels a bit like an insult to the readers intelligence to repeat essentially the same thing over and over. NBs have access to abilities that give them a lot of stats and you are unhappy about it. I think everyone got that the first time.

And this applies to all the buff threads with literally the same arguments that get repeated too. Are you implying that they're an insult to the readers' intelligence as well? No, they get repeated so people who are new to the thread get access to information without having to scroll through many pages.

NuarBlack

Simplest solution is to split cloak and NB burst heal into the two morphs for cloak so they don't have access to both at once.

Then rework offering into an alley only burst heal or personally would love to see NB healing turned into something different that fits the blood magic theme. Like make one morph of offering a tether that causes the target of the tether to receive the same healing the NB does so you can turn strife morphs into one self healing and the other a legitimate ranged spammable. You could also turn one morph of offering into a strong dot then to help NB in pve. Really just need to disperse NB power to the rest of the kit is all so it isn't so conveniently stacked in a few skills.

Vaqual

StaticWave wrote: »

Vaqual wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Vaqual wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

You can't possibly defend this class at this point imo if a build with random gear pieces in blue quality can still match a proper golded out build.

You have shown for the 11th time that the same sources for additional WD add WD. This has changed my life.

And I’m showing how a NB in RANDOM BLUE GEARS still gets the same stats as many golded out builds with complete 5 piece sets and a mythic. No other class can achieve this feat lol. It’s ridiculous and idk why ur sarcastic about it.

Because it feels a bit like an insult to the readers intelligence to repeat essentially the same thing over and over. NBs have access to abilities that give them a lot of stats and you are unhappy about it. I think everyone got that the first time.

And this applies to all the buff threads with literally the same arguments that get repeated too. Are you implying that they're an insult to the readers' intelligence as well? No, they get repeated so people who are new to the thread get access to information without having to scroll through many pages.

I do think that it decreases the quality of the discussion if the thread is reset to 0 every 2 pages. Repeating the same opinion without adding anything worthwhile just dilutes the discussion and makes it tedious to follow the thread.

"StaticWave wrote: »

And this applies to all the buff threads with literally the same arguments that get repeated too. Are you implying that they're an insult to the readers' intelligence as well?

Yes. If it is already written everyone can read the existing posts. It just invites the same trivial answers to be repeated and polarizes the thread.

StaticWave wrote: »

Like I said, you can ignore it instead of making an irrelevant sarcastic comment, just like how I ignore many comments I don't want to respond to in many threads.

I somehow doubt that you would ignore it if someone kept asking for sorc nerfs in multiple threads using the same couple arguments (however valid they may be). But sure, if that is your wish, consider it done.

Sorry for the repeated off-topic.

StaticWave

Vaqual wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Vaqual wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Vaqual wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

You can't possibly defend this class at this point imo if a build with random gear pieces in blue quality can still match a proper golded out build.

You have shown for the 11th time that the same sources for additional WD add WD. This has changed my life.

And I’m showing how a NB in RANDOM BLUE GEARS still gets the same stats as many golded out builds with complete 5 piece sets and a mythic. No other class can achieve this feat lol. It’s ridiculous and idk why ur sarcastic about it.

Because it feels a bit like an insult to the readers intelligence to repeat essentially the same thing over and over. NBs have access to abilities that give them a lot of stats and you are unhappy about it. I think everyone got that the first time.

And this applies to all the buff threads with literally the same arguments that get repeated too. Are you implying that they're an insult to the readers' intelligence as well? No, they get repeated so people who are new to the thread get access to information without having to scroll through many pages.

I do think that it decreases the quality of the discussion if the thread is reset to 0 every 2 pages. Repeating the same opinion without adding anything worthwhile just dilutes the discussion and makes it tedious to follow the thread.

"StaticWave wrote: »

And this applies to all the buff threads with literally the same arguments that get repeated too. Are you implying that they're an insult to the readers' intelligence as well?

Yes. If it is already written everyone can read the existing posts. It just invites the same trivial answers to be repeated and polarizes the thread.

StaticWave wrote: »

Like I said, you can ignore it instead of making an irrelevant sarcastic comment, just like how I ignore many comments I don't want to respond to in many threads.

I somehow doubt that you would ignore it if someone kept asking for sorc nerfs in multiple threads using the same couple arguments (however valid they may be). But sure, if that is your wish, consider it done.

Sorry for the repeated off-topic.

I showed people how strong NB is in a proper build and in a meme build. Going from a competitive build to a non competitive build and still having decent stats is nowhere near repetitive of an argument. It’s rather extra insight into the argument. If I didn’t raise that point, would people think NB is THAT strong? I don’t think so. You don’t expect a class to have decent stats in full random gear with blue quality lol.

If the points regarding sorc nerfs are valid then I would simply agree with them and help bring the point across. Didn’t I once state I argued against my own class?

Vaqual

StaticWave wrote: »

Vaqual wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Vaqual wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Vaqual wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

You can't possibly defend this class at this point imo if a build with random gear pieces in blue quality can still match a proper golded out build.

You have shown for the 11th time that the same sources for additional WD add WD. This has changed my life.

And I’m showing how a NB in RANDOM BLUE GEARS still gets the same stats as many golded out builds with complete 5 piece sets and a mythic. No other class can achieve this feat lol. It’s ridiculous and idk why ur sarcastic about it.

Because it feels a bit like an insult to the readers intelligence to repeat essentially the same thing over and over. NBs have access to abilities that give them a lot of stats and you are unhappy about it. I think everyone got that the first time.

And this applies to all the buff threads with literally the same arguments that get repeated too. Are you implying that they're an insult to the readers' intelligence as well? No, they get repeated so people who are new to the thread get access to information without having to scroll through many pages.

I do think that it decreases the quality of the discussion if the thread is reset to 0 every 2 pages. Repeating the same opinion without adding anything worthwhile just dilutes the discussion and makes it tedious to follow the thread.

"StaticWave wrote: »

And this applies to all the buff threads with literally the same arguments that get repeated too. Are you implying that they're an insult to the readers' intelligence as well?

Yes. If it is already written everyone can read the existing posts. It just invites the same trivial answers to be repeated and polarizes the thread.

StaticWave wrote: »

Like I said, you can ignore it instead of making an irrelevant sarcastic comment, just like how I ignore many comments I don't want to respond to in many threads.

I somehow doubt that you would ignore it if someone kept asking for sorc nerfs in multiple threads using the same couple arguments (however valid they may be). But sure, if that is your wish, consider it done.

Sorry for the repeated off-topic.

I showed people how strong NB is in a proper build and in a meme build. Going from a competitive build to a non competitive build and still having decent stats is nowhere near repetitive of an argument. It’s rather extra insight into the argument. If I didn’t raise that point, would people think NB is THAT strong? I don’t think so. You don’t expect a class to have decent stats in full random gear with blue quality lol.

If the points regarding sorc nerfs are valid then I would simply agree with them and help bring the point across. Didn’t I once state I argued against my own class?

Because it is the same few elements that contribute to the power budget of any of those builds you post. Adding or subtracting the effect of, e.g., Rallying Cry is elementary school math. There is no big revelation.

IZZEFlameLash

Vaqual wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Vaqual wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

You can't possibly defend this class at this point imo if a build with random gear pieces in blue quality can still match a proper golded out build.

You have shown for the 11th time that the same sources for additional WD add WD. This has changed my life.

And I’m showing how a NB in RANDOM BLUE GEARS still gets the same stats as many golded out builds with complete 5 piece sets and a mythic. No other class can achieve this feat lol. It’s ridiculous and idk why ur sarcastic about it.

Because it feels a bit like an insult to the readers intelligence to repeat essentially the same thing over and over. NBs have access to abilities that give them a lot of stats and you are unhappy about it. I think everyone got that the first time.

Well, if you are familiar with the internet, you'd know that it needs to be mentioned everytime because the moment they aren't mentioned, it just suddenly don't exist.

And some of the people jumping into the discussion later also could use some context as well.

FoJul

StaticWave wrote: »

So I put my best stat hybrid sorc build on a NB and the result is well.. unsurprising. I think it's still worth it to put it up here so people who are unaware can look at the current situation.

Link to Sorc build:

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoBuildEditor?id=590518

Link to NB build:

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoBuildEditor?id=590929

I disabled CP, included all possible buffs and debuffs (applied to targets), and kept all sets the same for both classes. The only thing I changed was attribute points. Here are the stats for both classes fully buffed without continuous:

Sorc:



The 1000 pen from Cwep isn't added to the pen stat, so I have to manually add it:




NB:




The 300 WD from Assassin's Will isn't added to the WD stat, so I have to manually add it:





So basically, these are the things that NB has over Sorc:

- 555 more WD
- 8% more crit chance
- 12% more crit damage
- 10% dmg done at all times compared to Amplitude (which is only 10% at 100% HP and diminishes when your target's HP gets lower)
- 20% unnamed vulnerability
- Major Evasion
- 4s snare cleanse and immunity
- Free dodge roll every few seconds
- Minor Cowardice, making the NB tankier
- Invisibility
- Forced 100% crit chance
- Major Endurance for not needing to use crit potions
- Minor Mending
- Access to an execute because its burst has equivalent dmg to 2 of Sorc's burst abilities (Cwep + Bound Armaments)
- AoE spammable to wipe groups if using Soul Tether or Dawnbreaker

I won't be biased though. These are the things Sorc has over NB:

- Unmatched offensive healing (with this particular build of course)
- Shield to prevent dying from a burst combo
- Several soft counters to stealthy players ( Curse, Streak, and Bound Armaments)
- Better AoE DoTs
- Offensive combo is less likely to be fully mitigated by block/roll dodge (Curse can only be cleansed)
- Better ability to create distance with Streak (if you have a high magicka pool and your opponent isn't speed capped with a gap closer)
- Can block better due to having several sustain passives from blocking and Dark Deal

That's just about everything Sorc has over NB. Sorc can't match NB in terms of stat density, bar space efficiency, or tankiness. I won't even mention Sorc having an AoE stun as an advantage because NB does have Mass Hysteria, which not only is an unblockable/undodgable AoE stun, but also applies Major Cowardice to affected targets. You can basically reduce your opponents' weapon/spell damage by a total of 645, making you even tankier.

Seriously, NB is just 3x better while in the same build. I don't even know why I'm playing Sorc when I can hop on NB, slot Mist Form, and be a pseudo Sorc with better burst, better healing and tankiness, and overall just a better class.

The key difference in your argument. Is in PvP, sorcs have streak and their entire kit is ranged. EDIT (I remember a lot of people getting ranged nightblade nerfed in pvp because of this mindset -> (Ranged classes shouldnt be able to do insane damage and get a way Scott free) So yeah nightblade might have Cloak and even shade, for mobility and mitagation. But if a sorc has even just 1 swift jewlry or Celerity, Most likely your running RaT for the snare removal and speed and crit. RaT+Celerity+Streak+more skill than a monkey, you practically CANNOT die.

I mean you can go ahead and tell me how OP rangeblade is, but at that point your being extremely biased. Rangeblade is D maybe even F tier.
EDIT: Lemme go ahead and add , Gankblades are exceptions, because they trade plenty of stats to be able to do that. If you die to gankblade=Skill issue.

The point being on sorc you can streak into a fight explode someone in 3-4 seconds, and then streak right away. In duels, we saw not to long ago Sorcs dominate even the highest tier nightblades in a 1v1 tournament. (Check Fe7ons twitch, should be December 2 or 4).

That all being said. Im still suprised people are complaining about Nightblades. IMO Dk's are and have been the most unbalanced. But it is what it is I guess.

ClowdyAllDay

Given the assertions made by op in their post, it seems night blades are very much in control and play well.
Working as intended.

Turtle_Bot

Sorcs "cannot die" [snip], that's a good one, you should take that bit to a comedy club.

Sorc can't run RaT without giving up something else more important for it, so no major expedition unless sorc runs the objectively worse boundless storm over hurricane (then sorc doesn't have access to minor expedition).
Sorcs jewelry traits are 3 bloodthirsty because that's how sorc is able to deal enough damage to enemies below 50% health thanks to the undeath passive and block mitigation giving everyone so much mitigation at low health while sorcs damage passive falls off the lower the enemies health is.
Celerity is common, I'll grant you that one, but sorc does have to give up a mitigation or sustain CP (sustained by suffering, survival instincts, or pains refuge) to slot it (this is on top of giving up something already for bastion CP) and thanks to the limited defensive options sorc has in its class kit, this is more punishing to do than on other classes who can make up for this by slotting a defensive ability. This goes even further when players have high ping and require slotting something like slippery to not instantly die to any hard CC (which has many bugs currently).
Finally, Sorc is already struggling to fit magelight/camohunter onto it's bars and those will always be slotted before RaT because crit surge (the class HoT) requires dealing CRITICAL damage to proc its heal since its not a proper HoT like every other class has access to on top of vigor.

A typical Sorc bar layout in PvP will be as follows:

FB: bound arm/curse/magelight/camo hunter, spammable of choice*, curse/frags, ward/vigor, streak, overload/atro/meteor.
BB: crit surge, ele sus, curse/vigor, dark deal/conversion, hurricane, defensive ult/overload.

* Spammable is typically a world/weapon ability.

Where exactly is sorc supposed to fit RaT on either bar? The only abilities that it can swap around are frags, curse, vigor, ward mage/camo or lastly tri-stat potions. All of these require giving up something more important than what RaT provides, especially since dark deal already gives minor force meaning you only get half the benefit from RaT.

Drop frags = no blood magic passive (even less healing), no cheaper casts, potentially less uptime of minor prophecy
Drop curse = significantly lower burst potential
Drop vigor = no reliable self HoT/minor resolve
Drop ele sus = no breach
Drop crit surge = no brutality/sorcery/offensive healing
Drop hurricane = forced to use chudan = very restricted build options
Drop ward = no temp health buffer to let the offensive HoTs do their job
Drop bound arm = no +8% health without double casting ward and lower burst potential
Drop Magelight/camo = no major prophecy = lower uptime on crit surge (this is currently the most "dropped" ability)
Drop dark deal = what burst heal
Drop tri-stat potions = huge sustain loss, which in turn limits everything else.

So what exactly is sorc going to drop to fit RaT onto their bar? Especially the currently strongest sorc build: proc sorc (which slots dark deal over dark conversion) that will only get half benefit from RaT.

Sorc has not had the bar space to include non-critical utility abilities like RaT and still keep the essentials like other classes can, ever since overloads third bar was removed, even when it doesn't run the pets. This is because sorc still is forced to run 4+ damage abilities to attempt to pull off the "burst combos" that people like to use as the reason sorc is so strong and ZOS refuses to give sorc access to all of the basic buffs/debuffs that every class should have...

Curious about that tournament, was cloak banned? Overtuned/broken defensive abilities tend to be banned in serious high level tournaments because the organizers want the TTK to be very low to prevent long drawn out tournaments and stalemates. Most abilities/builds also considered "cheese", tend to be banned as well because organizers typically see those as crutch/carry abilities/builds and less about testing a players skill.

Traditional gankblades (bows) are currently fine, but the latest force pulse gank blades are definitely becoming a big issue very quickly. Ranged 1 shots (or at least 90% of a non-squishy players health within 1 second from range) that can spam cloak from a distance that exceeds the range of the counters to cloak AND it has all the healing and evasion of brawler blades, with the advantages of ranged playstyle and the damage of gank builds.
I ran a similar build that is a half ganker/half brawler recently and it still chunks 50% of a players health instantly (from range) and it has even more healing and defense than the typical set-up for this build because I was running a defensive set back bar.

DK's are much less oppressive now than they were in previous patches. The change to corrosive to prevent gaining ultimate while in that form (something that should have been done a long time ago) has really neutered what made DK so oppressive in previous patches without completely killing the class (just like many of us said would happen).
Corrosive is still an insane ultimate, but now that it cannot have a near permanent uptime, DKs feel much less oppressive to fight against as there is an actual window to pressure and kill them. This is probably why there aren't as many complaints about them anymore.

[edited for profanity bypass]

GooGa592

FoJul wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

So I put my best stat hybrid sorc build on a NB and the result is well.. unsurprising. I think it's still worth it to put it up here so people who are unaware can look at the current situation.

Link to Sorc build:

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoBuildEditor?id=590518

Link to NB build:

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoBuildEditor?id=590929

I disabled CP, included all possible buffs and debuffs (applied to targets), and kept all sets the same for both classes. The only thing I changed was attribute points. Here are the stats for both classes fully buffed without continuous:

Sorc:



The 1000 pen from Cwep isn't added to the pen stat, so I have to manually add it:




NB:




The 300 WD from Assassin's Will isn't added to the WD stat, so I have to manually add it:





So basically, these are the things that NB has over Sorc:

- 555 more WD
- 8% more crit chance
- 12% more crit damage
- 10% dmg done at all times compared to Amplitude (which is only 10% at 100% HP and diminishes when your target's HP gets lower)
- 20% unnamed vulnerability
- Major Evasion
- 4s snare cleanse and immunity
- Free dodge roll every few seconds
- Minor Cowardice, making the NB tankier
- Invisibility
- Forced 100% crit chance
- Major Endurance for not needing to use crit potions
- Minor Mending
- Access to an execute because its burst has equivalent dmg to 2 of Sorc's burst abilities (Cwep + Bound Armaments)
- AoE spammable to wipe groups if using Soul Tether or Dawnbreaker

I won't be biased though. These are the things Sorc has over NB:

- Unmatched offensive healing (with this particular build of course)
- Shield to prevent dying from a burst combo
- Several soft counters to stealthy players ( Curse, Streak, and Bound Armaments)
- Better AoE DoTs
- Offensive combo is less likely to be fully mitigated by block/roll dodge (Curse can only be cleansed)
- Better ability to create distance with Streak (if you have a high magicka pool and your opponent isn't speed capped with a gap closer)
- Can block better due to having several sustain passives from blocking and Dark Deal

That's just about everything Sorc has over NB. Sorc can't match NB in terms of stat density, bar space efficiency, or tankiness. I won't even mention Sorc having an AoE stun as an advantage because NB does have Mass Hysteria, which not only is an unblockable/undodgable AoE stun, but also applies Major Cowardice to affected targets. You can basically reduce your opponents' weapon/spell damage by a total of 645, making you even tankier.

Seriously, NB is just 3x better while in the same build. I don't even know why I'm playing Sorc when I can hop on NB, slot Mist Form, and be a pseudo Sorc with better burst, better healing and tankiness, and overall just a better class.

The key difference in your argument. Is in PvP, sorcs have streak and their entire kit is ranged. EDIT (I remember a lot of people getting ranged nightblade nerfed in pvp because of this mindset -> (Ranged classes shouldnt be able to do insane damage and get a way Scott free) So yeah nightblade might have Cloak and even shade, for mobility and mitagation. But if a sorc has even just 1 swift jewlry or Celerity, Most likely your running RaT for the snare removal and speed and crit. RaT+Celerity+Streak+more skill than a monkey, you practically CANNOT die.

I mean you can go ahead and tell me how OP rangeblade is, but at that point your being extremely biased. Rangeblade is D maybe even F tier.
EDIT: Lemme go ahead and add , Gankblades are exceptions, because they trade plenty of stats to be able to do that. If you die to gankblade=Skill issue.

The point being on sorc you can streak into a fight explode someone in 3-4 seconds, and then streak right away. In duels, we saw not to long ago Sorcs dominate even the highest tier nightblades in a 1v1 tournament. (Check Fe7ons twitch, should be December 2 or 4).

That all being said. Im still suprised people are complaining about Nightblades. IMO Dk's are and have been the most unbalanced. But it is what it is I guess.

This thread is not about Sorc's. It's about how ridiculously OP cloak is right now considering how strong NB's burst damage and burst heal is at the same time.

NB's just need to accept that in a PvP situation they are playing the class with the strongest and most diverse skills in their toolbox, and then they have cloak on top of all that.

DrNukenstein

Yes, strong ranged blade is a problem. The counters are designed with melee in mind, and the ranged builds break that deal.

Every single argument against cloak is true when applied to the ranged blades. Only like half of them are accurate when applied to melee.

ZOS should revert concealed weapons minor expedition to it's old movespeed mechanic, and lower the Major berserk down to minor. They don't even use the skill, they just slot it for the buffs. Some of them even throw bar space around hard enough to double bar it.

Then maybe make the cloak crit melee only (next ability used on target within 8 meters)

Make Merciless resolve stacks reset outside of combat in PVP again. That has been such an enabler, it's been fun to actually be able to gank with it but it is not fair. The skill was well balanced around having to build it up in combat.

Add a short revealed effect after breaking cloak with a damaging ability. Melee is used to not being able to immediately return to stealth.



On the burst heal: Everytime someone complains about the burst heal that does not have anything wild like missing health scaling, sustain return, or damage buffs; a team mate steals the heal. It also breaks stealth, unlike coagulating blood which can be used to heal while stealthed in some very niche dk builds.

Turtle_Bot

DrNukenstein wrote: »

Then maybe make the cloak crit melee only (next ability used on target within 8 meters)

<snip>

Add a short revealed effect after breaking cloak with a damaging ability. Melee is used to not being able to immediately return to stealth.

These would be interesting changes that I wouldn't mind seeing tested. Part of what balances Streak (on top of the ramping cost and really quite mediocre damage due to being the off damage type for the class) is that to get the full benefits out of it (stun and damage), you have to streak over the top of enemies (with the position desync that exists in the game, that means right ontop/infront of them). This means even with streak being a strong ability, it forces you (as a ranged class with little defensive options) into the danger zone of melee combat to gets its bonus effects of a stun + damage.

The revealed effect after breaking it with a damage ability (which should include light/heavy attacks) would be a similar balance idea to the ramping cost on streak, it facilitates using it tactically instead of simply spamming it as a get out of jail free button. It wouldn't have to be long, 2-3 seconds, maybe 4 if required because of synergy with dodge roll, but the constant stealth, attack, stealth, repeat abuse of cloak needs adjusting.

Make Merciless resolve stacks reset outside of combat in PVP again.

I found this "QoL" change (to keep its stacks indefinitely), for both morphs to be completely absurd (if it was intended, many asked if it was a bug, but it went live with no comment or change, so we can only assume it was intended), especially when bound armaments (an objectively worse version of spec bow) kept its stack loss mechanic, even if you stay in combat.

BA's stacks don't even last as long as bows stacks used to last, they fall off after 10 seconds instead of bows old 40/60 seconds... Many of us even pointed this issue out in the PTS and that keeping the stacks indefinitely would enable a lot of complete (and abusable) nonsense for NB, but as usual we were ignored... Hate to say (to ZOS) "We told you so", but, well, proof is in the game right now...



In regards to Offering

It is way too strong in its current form, even with its downsides. Most of this is due to how ZOS made its "cost" function. It has 3% more base healing than HtD (before mending), which is within balance tolerances, while costing significantly less (25%) magicka to cast it (well outside balance tolerances).
I get that the total cost is technically the same (4590 magicka for HtD and 3510 mag + 1080 health = 4590 total for offering) if we look at it from a spreadsheet or in a vacuum, but it doesn't end up being the same cost at all when playing the game due to how many different factors that need to be accounted for and how easy it is to mitigate that DoT portion of the cost compared to how difficult it is to reduce the mag cost for HtD by an equivalent amount.

HtD is an upfront magicka cost that cannot be mitigated/reduced through the natural course of combat without giving something up for it, typically sacrificing 3 damage glyphs to run 3 cost reduction glyphs that at most, still only get 11% less cost reduction (even with 3 infused traits) than what the health "cost" portion reduces offerings cost by.

It's 927 reduced mag cost with 3 infused glyphs, compared to 1080 reduction on offerings mag cost (at base) because it "costs" health over time, which also doesn't stack so subsequent casts of offering are simply a flat 25% cheaper to cast.

Even coag (which has 17% less healing (at base) than offering), isn't as strong as offering is (even before mending) and only reaches roughly the same healing when the DK is at 60% health (then slowly heals for more the lower the DK gets). Coag also still costs ~15% more magicka than offering too.

Polar winds is probably the only burst heal stronger than offering right now and that's because it's a health based heal with a significant HoT attached and higher base tooltip than offering, but we all know how problematic health based heals (well health based anything really) are in ESO.
The counter argument to polar being stronger than offering is that warden doesn't also have invis, teleporting (for themselves) or as high burst potential that NB has, so it's a crazy good tank/healer, but its damage and mobility is lacking and it remains visible at all times. Warden also has to get significantly closer to its enemies to land its burst as well.

Don't get me wrong, I'm fully aware of how overpowered polar is, but offering is just as absurdly strong of a burst heal, but instead of being OP due to its tooltip values, it's absurdly overpowered because its so damn cheap to cast compared to all other burst heals.

Offering needs its cost reworked, remove the self DoT and make it cost the same magicka (4590) as other burst heals. It was a cute idea to try out the split cost thing, but the 25% reduced magicka cost it has at base over other equivalent burst heals is something that simply enables far too much sustain and defense that frees up far too much for NB.

Sahidom

All classes can be made into beasts. I know a beta Nightblade player that is probably in the top 1-3% and expert on the class. He is good, really good and scary to watch his discord stream of his gameplay, and he can call out which sets his target is running by the buffs and skill usages and drop even the tank-y players.

He was once called out by others how broken Nightblade class is. In response, he made a Templar "Gank" Build to prove any class has the potential to be a "Ganker" or execute high burst damage in seconds. That it was not the Nightblade class that was broken but players not understanding their own class or how to pick sets. Too many PVP players do not often play with counters to stealth and become bitter when one drops them.

And the shocking part about any of his builds: The ESO streamers and popular online guides for NB PVP builds are off the mark on gear choices and skill picks. Whereas many players turn to other class guides and expect their PVP experience to be the same as the content providers: and it is often not.

On the topic of Nightblades being OP - they're not. They have a high ceiling for learning how to play the class and several PVP players do not use counters or overly rely on ball group protection to keep them safe from the stealthing opponent.

reazea

Sahidom wrote: »

All classes can be made into beasts. I know a beta Nightblade player that is probably in the top 1-3% and expert on the class. He is good, really good and scary to watch his discord stream of his gameplay, and he can call out which sets his target is running by the buffs and skill usages and drop even the tank-y players.

He was once called out by others how broken Nightblade class is. In response, he made a Templar "Gank" Build to prove any class has the potential to be a "Ganker" or execute high burst damage in seconds. That it was not the Nightblade class that was broken but players not understanding their own class or how to pick sets. Too many PVP players do not often play with counters to stealth and become bitter when one drops them.

And the shocking part about any of his builds: The ESO streamers and popular online guides for NB PVP builds are off the mark on gear choices and skill picks. Whereas many players turn to other class guides and expect their PVP experience to be the same as the content providers: and it is often not.

On the topic of Nightblades being OP - they're not. They have a high ceiling for learning how to play the class and several PVP players do not use counters or overly rely on ball group protection to keep them safe from the stealthing opponent.

Except NB's are the most OP class in PvP right now. They have the highest burst damage and the highest burst heal in the game right now. And they have a strong stun and cloak on top of all that. Yes, there is a learning curve to play them well, but that doesn't mean they aren't the most OP class in PvP probably ever in the history of the game right now. Class balance in Cyrodiil right now is the worst it's ever been.

Sahidom

reazea wrote: »

Sahidom wrote: »

All classes can be made into beasts. I know a beta Nightblade player that is probably in the top 1-3% and expert on the class. He is good, really good and scary to watch his discord stream of his gameplay, and he can call out which sets his target is running by the buffs and skill usages and drop even the tank-y players.

He was once called out by others how broken Nightblade class is. In response, he made a Templar "Gank" Build to prove any class has the potential to be a "Ganker" or execute high burst damage in seconds. That it was not the Nightblade class that was broken but players not understanding their own class or how to pick sets. Too many PVP players do not often play with counters to stealth and become bitter when one drops them.

And the shocking part about any of his builds: The ESO streamers and popular online guides for NB PVP builds are off the mark on gear choices and skill picks. Whereas many players turn to other class guides and expect their PVP experience to be the same as the content providers: and it is often not.

On the topic of Nightblades being OP - they're not. They have a high ceiling for learning how to play the class and several PVP players do not use counters or overly rely on ball group protection to keep them safe from the stealthing opponent.

Except NB's are the most OP class in PvP right now. They have the highest burst damage and the highest burst heal in the game right now. And they have a strong stun and cloak on top of all that. Yes, there is a learning curve to play them well, but that doesn't mean they aren't the most OP class in PvP probably ever in the history of the game right now. Class balance in Cyrodiil right now is the worst it's ever been.

ZOS never balanced classes. This is a factual statement and instead they used set items to balance gameplay. You probably did not PVP when Sorcerers ruled supreme with their pre-prepped 20k+ crystal frags. Each class has their OP characteristics but to the average player those attributes are not learned or realized. I am objectively saying this because this one player did prove to those who claim NB is the most OP class by doing the same stupid high burst with other classes.

PVP is also a playfield with variation of skills and playstyles. Some playstyles do not anticipate the stealthing opponent and that differences do not classify the class to be OP. Stamina versions have always been stronger than magic-based NB; it is like ZOS decided stamina == PVP and magicka == PVE while many of the other classes do not have this issue.

Nightblades are strong now. However, this cannot be stressed enough, those players who are not able to handle stealthing opponents will claim Nightblades are overpowering. There are so many counters to stealth it's stupid and everyone can crouch into stealth and move with equal speed because gankers do not use Concealed Weapon.

reazea

Sahidom wrote: »

reazea wrote: »

Sahidom wrote: »

All classes can be made into beasts. I know a beta Nightblade player that is probably in the top 1-3% and expert on the class. He is good, really good and scary to watch his discord stream of his gameplay, and he can call out which sets his target is running by the buffs and skill usages and drop even the tank-y players.

He was once called out by others how broken Nightblade class is. In response, he made a Templar "Gank" Build to prove any class has the potential to be a "Ganker" or execute high burst damage in seconds. That it was not the Nightblade class that was broken but players not understanding their own class or how to pick sets. Too many PVP players do not often play with counters to stealth and become bitter when one drops them.

And the shocking part about any of his builds: The ESO streamers and popular online guides for NB PVP builds are off the mark on gear choices and skill picks. Whereas many players turn to other class guides and expect their PVP experience to be the same as the content providers: and it is often not.

On the topic of Nightblades being OP - they're not. They have a high ceiling for learning how to play the class and several PVP players do not use counters or overly rely on ball group protection to keep them safe from the stealthing opponent.

Except NB's are the most OP class in PvP right now. They have the highest burst damage and the highest burst heal in the game right now. And they have a strong stun and cloak on top of all that. Yes, there is a learning curve to play them well, but that doesn't mean they aren't the most OP class in PvP probably ever in the history of the game right now. Class balance in Cyrodiil right now is the worst it's ever been.

ZOS never balanced classes. This is a factual statement and instead they used set items to balance gameplay. You probably did not PVP when Sorcerers ruled supreme with their pre-prepped 20k+ crystal frags. Each class has their OP characteristics but to the average player those attributes are not learned or realized. I am objectively saying this because this one player did prove to those who claim NB is the most OP class by doing the same stupid high burst with other classes.

PVP is also a playfield with variation of skills and playstyles. Some playstyles do not anticipate the stealthing opponent and that differences do not classify the class to be OP. Stamina versions have always been stronger than magic-based NB; it is like ZOS decided stamina == PVP and magicka == PVE while many of the other classes do not have this issue.

Nightblades are strong now. However, this cannot be stressed enough, those players who are not able to handle stealthing opponents will claim Nightblades are overpowering. There are so many counters to stealth it's stupid and everyone can crouch into stealth and move with equal speed because gankers do not use Concealed Weapon.

With the exception of detection pots most of the counters to cloak are not reliable. Very few things, even having dots or siege on the NB will not keep an NB from reentering cloak.

Bushido2513

Sahidom wrote: »

Nightblades are strong now. However, this cannot be stressed enough, those players who are not able to handle stealthing opponents will claim Nightblades are overpowering. There are so many counters to stealth it's stupid and everyone can crouch into stealth and move with equal speed because gankers do not use Concealed Weapon.

So I consider myself to be able to handle a NB and I can say for sure say they are overly strong

Sahidom wrote: »

reazea wrote: »

Sahidom wrote: »

All classes can be made into beasts. I know a beta Nightblade player that is probably in the top 1-3% and expert on the class. He is good, really good and scary to watch his discord stream of his gameplay, and he can call out which sets his target is running by the buffs and skill usages and drop even the tank-y players.

He was once called out by others how broken Nightblade class is. In response, he made a Templar "Gank" Build to prove any class has the potential to be a "Ganker" or execute high burst damage in seconds. That it was not the Nightblade class that was broken but players not understanding their own class or how to pick sets. Too many PVP players do not often play with counters to stealth and become bitter when one drops them.

And the shocking part about any of his builds: The ESO streamers and popular online guides for NB PVP builds are off the mark on gear choices and skill picks. Whereas many players turn to other class guides and expect their PVP experience to be the same as the content providers: and it is often not.

On the topic of Nightblades being OP - they're not. They have a high ceiling for learning how to play the class and several PVP players do not use counters or overly rely on ball group protection to keep them safe from the stealthing opponent.

Except NB's are the most OP class in PvP right now. They have the highest burst damage and the highest burst heal in the game right now. And they have a strong stun and cloak on top of all that. Yes, there is a learning curve to play them well, but that doesn't mean they aren't the most OP class in PvP probably ever in the history of the game right now. Class balance in Cyrodiil right now is the worst it's ever been.

ZOS never balanced classes. This is a factual statement and instead they used set items to balance gameplay. You probably did not PVP when Sorcerers ruled supreme with their pre-prepped 20k+ crystal frags. Each class has their OP characteristics but to the average player those attributes are not learned or realized. I am objectively saying this because this one player did prove to those who claim NB is the most OP class by doing the same stupid high burst with other classes.

PVP is also a playfield with variation of skills and playstyles. Some playstyles do not anticipate the stealthing opponent and that differences do not classify the class to be OP. Stamina versions have always been stronger than magic-based NB; it is like ZOS decided stamina == PVP and magicka == PVE while many of the other classes do not have this issue.

Nightblades are strong now. However, this cannot be stressed enough, those players who are not able to handle stealthing opponents will claim Nightblades are overpowering. There are so many counters to stealth it's stupid and everyone can crouch into stealth and move with equal speed because gankers do not use Concealed Weapon.

So yes we can say that each class can burst someone. That's not really a debate but to have an understanding you'd have to repeat an experiment several times with controls in place to show a clear picture.

Just saying someone somewhere bursted players with different classes doesn't cut it.

That being said I consider myself able to fight NB to some degree in that my build can take a hit and I have damage that can make an opponent have to do other things than just damage me.

The problem is that NB currently has too many tools in the toolbox to effectively deal with many pvp scenarios.

You simply shouldn't have high healing, high evasion, maneuverability, and damage in one package with good resources in one package.

So I use the potion counter which is very reliable even if it does cost me a little damage. The problem is that revealing a good nightblade becomes like poking a bear with a stick. They still have damage, heals, mitigation, and possibly speed.

So if they happen to run power extraction now they also reduce my damage, increase their own and can cloak to gain more damage.

This is just a sample scenario but it's just too much ease of access to several things that also easily put your opponent at a disadvantaged for little requirement.

Basically the opportunity cost for NB just isn't overall in line with the majority of classes.

That being said I will say though that when someone says NB isn't op it really does matter as to what class and build they are playing. Some build and class combos will definitely be able to shrug off a NB a bit easier but I think the average needs to be considered for overall PVP health.

DrNukenstein

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

Offering needs its cost reworked, remove the self DoT and make it cost the same magicka (4590) as other burst heals. It was a cute idea to try out the split cost thing, but the 25% reduced magicka cost it has at base over other equivalent burst heals is something that simply enables far too much sustain and defense that frees up far too much for NB.

Yes offering costs about 25% less. In a vacuum that looks like a huge deal. Lets look at some iconic and instant cast class heals side by side

Healthy offering- 3510 base cost, 3600 base tool tip. Is boosted by it's own minor mending, can potentially target team mates, and is supposed to be limited by a weak and stacking dot which does reduce it's effective tool tip by a flat 1080.

Coagulating blood- 4320 base cost, 2999 tooltip with up to 50% "schmexecute" scaling. Realistically at least a 20% boost when you use it. Out heals offering at about 50% health and its only up from there.

Arctic blast- 4320 base cost, 2904 tooltip. Triple functions as a dot aura and stun. That's really really good.

Honor the dead: 4590 base cost, 3485 tool tip. returns UP TO 60% OF IT'S COST OVER 6 SECONDS. Can be stolen by team mate.


It would look like next to each of these heals that the advantages of the NB class heal are cost and raw tool tip. It's an efficient heal that you can use with the only outside factors that influence it are your tool tip vs the health cost and whether a team mate is holding on for dear life near by. That's what it has working for it.

Is that inherently more useful than schmexecute scaling on a class with access to massive resource return when they ult?

Is it more feature loaded than the warden heal?

Is it really more spammable than the plar heal which totally wins on efficiency due to it's crazy resource return.


Now, concession time. How could NB heal be made more fair?

Really, make the health cost scale with max health. Make it hurt to spam it, and hurt even more if you stack health. If that 1080 scaled up to 3240 at 30k health spamming it would not be the move. And it shouldn't be the move, because this kind of is the only game that let's the stealth class do stuff like that.

FoJul

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

Sorcs "cannot die" [snip], that's a good one, you should take that bit to a comedy club.

Sorc can't run RaT without giving up something else more important for it, so no major expedition unless sorc runs the objectively worse boundless storm over hurricane (then sorc doesn't have access to minor expedition).
Sorcs jewelry traits are 3 bloodthirsty because that's how sorc is able to deal enough damage to enemies below 50% health thanks to the undeath passive and block mitigation giving everyone so much mitigation at low health while sorcs damage passive falls off the lower the enemies health is.
Celerity is common, I'll grant you that one, but sorc does have to give up a mitigation or sustain CP (sustained by suffering, survival instincts, or pains refuge) to slot it (this is on top of giving up something already for bastion CP) and thanks to the limited defensive options sorc has in its class kit, this is more punishing to do than on other classes who can make up for this by slotting a defensive ability. This goes even further when players have high ping and require slotting something like slippery to not instantly die to any hard CC (which has many bugs currently).
Finally, Sorc is already struggling to fit magelight/camohunter onto it's bars and those will always be slotted before RaT because crit surge (the class HoT) requires dealing CRITICAL damage to proc its heal since its not a proper HoT like every other class has access to on top of vigor.

A typical Sorc bar layout in PvP will be as follows:

FB: bound arm/curse/magelight/camo hunter, spammable of choice*, curse/frags, ward/vigor, streak, overload/atro/meteor.
BB: crit surge, ele sus, curse/vigor, dark deal/conversion, hurricane, defensive ult/overload.

* Spammable is typically a world/weapon ability.

Where exactly is sorc supposed to fit RaT on either bar? The only abilities that it can swap around are frags, curse, vigor, ward mage/camo or lastly tri-stat potions. All of these require giving up something more important than what RaT provides, especially since dark deal already gives minor force meaning you only get half the benefit from RaT.

Drop frags = no blood magic passive (even less healing), no cheaper casts, potentially less uptime of minor prophecy
Drop curse = significantly lower burst potential
Drop vigor = no reliable self HoT/minor resolve
Drop ele sus = no breach
Drop crit surge = no brutality/sorcery/offensive healing
Drop hurricane = forced to use chudan = very restricted build options
Drop ward = no temp health buffer to let the offensive HoTs do their job
Drop bound arm = no +8% health without double casting ward and lower burst potential
Drop Magelight/camo = no major prophecy = lower uptime on crit surge (this is currently the most "dropped" ability)
Drop dark deal = what burst heal
Drop tri-stat potions = huge sustain loss, which in turn limits everything else.

So what exactly is sorc going to drop to fit RaT onto their bar? Especially the currently strongest sorc build: proc sorc (which slots dark deal over dark conversion) that will only get half benefit from RaT.

Sorc has not had the bar space to include non-critical utility abilities like RaT and still keep the essentials like other classes can, ever since overloads third bar was removed, even when it doesn't run the pets. This is because sorc still is forced to run 4+ damage abilities to attempt to pull off the "burst combos" that people like to use as the reason sorc is so strong and ZOS refuses to give sorc access to all of the basic buffs/debuffs that every class should have...

Curious about that tournament, was cloak banned? Overtuned/broken defensive abilities tend to be banned in serious high level tournaments because the organizers want the TTK to be very low to prevent long drawn out tournaments and stalemates. Most abilities/builds also considered "cheese", tend to be banned as well because organizers typically see those as crutch/carry abilities/builds and less about testing a players skill.

Traditional gankblades (bows) are currently fine, but the latest force pulse gank blades are definitely becoming a big issue very quickly. Ranged 1 shots (or at least 90% of a non-squishy players health within 1 second from range) that can spam cloak from a distance that exceeds the range of the counters to cloak AND it has all the healing and evasion of brawler blades, with the advantages of ranged playstyle and the damage of gank builds.
I ran a similar build that is a half ganker/half brawler recently and it still chunks 50% of a players health instantly (from range) and it has even more healing and defense than the typical set-up for this build because I was running a defensive set back bar.

DK's are much less oppressive now than they were in previous patches. The change to corrosive to prevent gaining ultimate while in that form (something that should have been done a long time ago) has really neutered what made DK so oppressive in previous patches without completely killing the class (just like many of us said would happen).
Corrosive is still an insane ultimate, but now that it cannot have a near permanent uptime, DKs feel much less oppressive to fight against as there is an actual window to pressure and kill them. This is probably why there aren't as many complaints about them anymore.

Sorry for delayed response, as my care for ESO slowly drains away. Sorc isnt the only class who doesn't have EVERY single buff you need to compare to Nightblade or DK. If you keep comparing classes this way, and say they did make the changes that people desire with this mindset. You would basically have the same builds/Same combos/ same everything. Stripping diversity yet making the game even more bland and boring.

If this is the case, why doesn't ESO become like other MMOS and give you a set skill loadout with a set skill of stats per class? To make certain builds work you have to stack in one or two things... Primary stat, or Procs. Theres no other way to make a build anymore. The game is in a terrible state for making builds and theory crafting.

Its just easier putting on WoF or tank set/master DW/ and vateshran. You can put any of these sets on any build and make it work no matter what.

Going back to the sorc vs nightblade...Sorc can get 50k max magicka and have a 20k c frag Tooltip. Nightblade can have the same ammount of magicka...but way less damage on the tooltips. Sorc gets better max mag scaling, and they have since the dawn of time. Thats why sorcs stack in max magicka and crit.

When it comes to defensive tools, Cloak>Streak in some situations, and Streak>Cloak in some situations. When it comes to bar space management. Every build has an option. Most stats has an a 2nd option. You can get a sorc to have similar stats to a nightblade. So the argument would only be in the barspace and cloak. Stam Sorc, does recieve less love when it comes to builds, but magsorc is in a really good spot, imo.

But every class has its weakness. Every class has its strengths. That being said all in favor of removing Shadowy disguise.

[edited to remove quote]

FoJul

reazea wrote: »

Sahidom wrote: »

All classes can be made into beasts. I know a beta Nightblade player that is probably in the top 1-3% and expert on the class. He is good, really good and scary to watch his discord stream of his gameplay, and he can call out which sets his target is running by the buffs and skill usages and drop even the tank-y players.

He was once called out by others how broken Nightblade class is. In response, he made a Templar "Gank" Build to prove any class has the potential to be a "Ganker" or execute high burst damage in seconds. That it was not the Nightblade class that was broken but players not understanding their own class or how to pick sets. Too many PVP players do not often play with counters to stealth and become bitter when one drops them.

And the shocking part about any of his builds: The ESO streamers and popular online guides for NB PVP builds are off the mark on gear choices and skill picks. Whereas many players turn to other class guides and expect their PVP experience to be the same as the content providers: and it is often not.

On the topic of Nightblades being OP - they're not. They have a high ceiling for learning how to play the class and several PVP players do not use counters or overly rely on ball group protection to keep them safe from the stealthing opponent.

Except NB's are the most OP class in PvP right now. They have the highest burst damage and the highest burst heal in the game right now. And they have a strong stun and cloak on top of all that. Yes, there is a learning curve to play them well, but that doesn't mean they aren't the most OP class in PvP probably ever in the history of the game right now. Class balance in Cyrodiil right now is the worst it's ever been.

I disagree, Dk has had the crown for a good while. I know I don't die to most nightblade's anymore and many of my friends dominate nightblades. The ceiling is high on nightblades, and incap bow isn't going to work forever.

Dk gets the best sustain, the most pressure, can still hit 10-15k whips, Leap ranged stun ult that can hit up to 20k...Corrosive 93% damage mitagation and 100% pen, BALANCED. Lets not mention their ult gen, base resistances, and still get 2 different burst heals. One of the burst heals is a stun so you cant counter it.

DK>NB and its not even close.

Also if you think current Nightblade is the strongest to ever exist, you must not have played in pvp content long. Templar just a year and a half ago was probably the strongest meta i witnessed... Rangeplar being almost uncounterable, while have healing incomparable to any class.

Rangeblade, in 5 heavy with the old evasion was stupid busted in 2016

DK just a few months ago were leaping in corrosive. LOL

Necro when they first came out would be 100k hp (in ultimate form) and Bash everything to death ( this was cancer).

necro bombs still exist and still are extrremely effective even after nerfs.

There have been alot of metas and extremely broken concepts. But Nightblade having cloak is nothing new.

No matter what you do to the class you are going to have backlash. Whether that be a few minor adjustments, a rework, a complete ground smashing nerf, or just keep releasing new expansions with new classes and just forget nightblade exist.

In my honest opinion, everyone should quit hoping for PvP changes, cause Zos clearly doesn't care about the communities opinion. Everyone on the forums wants either 1 class nerfed or 1 class buffed. No one looks at the total balancing of ESO anymore.

I think cloak isnt the issue personally. I think being able to have 35k resistances..8k spell dmg.. 120% crit damage and 40% crit chance all while having 2300+ recoveries and around 24k max magicka is the problem. In the golden days of ESO you had to do hell of a sacrifce to even get 1 of those mega stats. Now all these stats are pretty much given to you. Thats why you have everyone running in Tank sets and Procs. Cause building into stats is non existent.

Bushido2513

FoJul wrote: »

reazea wrote: »

Sahidom wrote: »

All classes can be made into beasts. I know a beta Nightblade player that is probably in the top 1-3% and expert on the class. He is good, really good and scary to watch his discord stream of his gameplay, and he can call out which sets his target is running by the buffs and skill usages and drop even the tank-y players.

He was once called out by others how broken Nightblade class is. In response, he made a Templar "Gank" Build to prove any class has the potential to be a "Ganker" or execute high burst damage in seconds. That it was not the Nightblade class that was broken but players not understanding their own class or how to pick sets. Too many PVP players do not often play with counters to stealth and become bitter when one drops them.

And the shocking part about any of his builds: The ESO streamers and popular online guides for NB PVP builds are off the mark on gear choices and skill picks. Whereas many players turn to other class guides and expect their PVP experience to be the same as the content providers: and it is often not.

On the topic of Nightblades being OP - they're not. They have a high ceiling for learning how to play the class and several PVP players do not use counters or overly rely on ball group protection to keep them safe from the stealthing opponent.

Except NB's are the most OP class in PvP right now. They have the highest burst damage and the highest burst heal in the game right now. And they have a strong stun and cloak on top of all that. Yes, there is a learning curve to play them well, but that doesn't mean they aren't the most OP class in PvP probably ever in the history of the game right now. Class balance in Cyrodiil right now is the worst it's ever been.

I disagree, Dk has had the crown for a good while. I know I don't die to most nightblade's anymore and many of my friends dominate nightblades. The ceiling is high on nightblades, and incap bow isn't going to work forever.

Dk gets the best sustain, the most pressure, can still hit 10-15k whips, Leap ranged stun ult that can hit up to 20k...Corrosive 93% damage mitagation and 100% pen, BALANCED. Lets not mention their ult gen, base resistances, and still get 2 different burst heals. One of the burst heals is a stun so you cant counter it.

DK>NB and its not even close.

Also if you think current Nightblade is the strongest to ever exist, you must not have played in pvp content long. Templar just a year and a half ago was probably the strongest meta i witnessed... Rangeplar being almost uncounterable, while have healing incomparable to any class.

Rangeblade, in 5 heavy with the old evasion was stupid busted in 2016

DK just a few months ago were leaping in corrosive. LOL

Necro when they first came out would be 100k hp (in ultimate form) and Bash everything to death ( this was cancer).

necro bombs still exist and still are extrremely effective even after nerfs.

There have been alot of metas and extremely broken concepts. But Nightblade having cloak is nothing new.

No matter what you do to the class you are going to have backlash. Whether that be a few minor adjustments, a rework, a complete ground smashing nerf, or just keep releasing new expansions with new classes and just forget nightblade exist.

In my honest opinion, everyone should quit hoping for PvP changes, cause Zos clearly doesn't care about the communities opinion. Everyone on the forums wants either 1 class nerfed or 1 class buffed. No one looks at the total balancing of ESO anymore.

I think cloak isnt the issue personally. I think being able to have 35k resistances..8k spell dmg.. 120% crit damage and 40% crit chance all while having 2300+ recoveries and around 24k max magicka is the problem. In the golden days of ESO you had to do hell of a sacrifce to even get 1 of those mega stats. Now all these stats are pretty much given to you. Thats why you have everyone running in Tank sets and Procs. Cause building into stats is non existent.

Really they are just both s tier but can be considered op depending on the situation.

There is one very big difference though. The other day I had a DK initiate combat notice my damage was high and then decide they wanted to leave. I chased them down and finished the encounter. With a NB they have the choice to end combat completely or even stealth away and just prepare another assault on their terms. Yes I can use counters but this puts me at a damage or sustain disadvantage and they may be able to just heal through it or shade away.

On the other end dk can tank you, has an amazing stun, aoe damage if desired, is easier to use, etc


Nb mostly gets a stronger nod for having great damage, good or great heals and the ability to reset or even end the fight at will

StaticWave

Sahidom wrote: »

reazea wrote: »

Sahidom wrote: »

All classes can be made into beasts. I know a beta Nightblade player that is probably in the top 1-3% and expert on the class. He is good, really good and scary to watch his discord stream of his gameplay, and he can call out which sets his target is running by the buffs and skill usages and drop even the tank-y players.

He was once called out by others how broken Nightblade class is. In response, he made a Templar "Gank" Build to prove any class has the potential to be a "Ganker" or execute high burst damage in seconds. That it was not the Nightblade class that was broken but players not understanding their own class or how to pick sets. Too many PVP players do not often play with counters to stealth and become bitter when one drops them.

And the shocking part about any of his builds: The ESO streamers and popular online guides for NB PVP builds are off the mark on gear choices and skill picks. Whereas many players turn to other class guides and expect their PVP experience to be the same as the content providers: and it is often not.

On the topic of Nightblades being OP - they're not. They have a high ceiling for learning how to play the class and several PVP players do not use counters or overly rely on ball group protection to keep them safe from the stealthing opponent.

Except NB's are the most OP class in PvP right now. They have the highest burst damage and the highest burst heal in the game right now. And they have a strong stun and cloak on top of all that. Yes, there is a learning curve to play them well, but that doesn't mean they aren't the most OP class in PvP probably ever in the history of the game right now. Class balance in Cyrodiil right now is the worst it's ever been.

ZOS never balanced classes. This is a factual statement and instead they used set items to balance gameplay. You probably did not PVP when Sorcerers ruled supreme with their pre-prepped 20k+ crystal frags. Each class has their OP characteristics but to the average player those attributes are not learned or realized. I am objectively saying this because this one player did prove to those who claim NB is the most OP class by doing the same stupid high burst with other classes.

PVP is also a playfield with variation of skills and playstyles. Some playstyles do not anticipate the stealthing opponent and that differences do not classify the class to be OP. Stamina versions have always been stronger than magic-based NB; it is like ZOS decided stamina == PVP and magicka == PVE while many of the other classes do not have this issue.

Nightblades are strong now. However, this cannot be stressed enough, those players who are not able to handle stealthing opponents will claim Nightblades are overpowering. There are so many counters to stealth it's stupid and everyone can crouch into stealth and move with equal speed because gankers do not use Concealed Weapon.

The cloaking NBs I fight against run 29-30k armor with 3.5k+ critical resistance. They aren’t going to die even if you reveal them. Oh let’s not forget they also have Major and Minor Expedition on top of a strong burst heal spammable.

Don’t you think it’s a bit absurd that a tanky brawlerblade can just Cloak around?

TechMaybeHic

They shoukd tie resists rather than just heavy armor to stealth detection radius and cloak effectiveness should also be impacted by that. And it should be more harsh.

Want to be a ganker? OK, but if you want to be able to just disappear, you'll need to truly be glass.

Want to be a brawler? OK but you will not just disappear and have to deal with all tge down sides if other brawler classes.

You could still make use of shadow image then, but you can't just HOT up and spam that

Bushido2513

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

They shoukd tie resists rather than just heavy armor to stealth detection radius and cloak effectiveness should also be impacted by that. And it should be more harsh.

Want to be a ganker? OK, but if you want to be able to just disappear, you'll need to truly be glass.

Want to be a brawler? OK but you will not just disappear and have to deal with all tge down sides if other brawler classes.

You could still make use of shadow image then, but you can't just HOT up and spam that

That's a more complicated fix than needed I think. How about just saying if you want cloak you give up the burst heal and vice versa? Then a brawler is a brawler and a cloaker is a cloaker.

I'd even accept if the burst heal was just lessened when used around cloak

Sahidom

FoJul wrote: »

Going back to the sorc vs nightblade...Sorc can get 50k max magicka and have a 20k c frag Tooltip. Nightblade can have the same ammount of magicka...but way less damage on the tooltips. Sorc gets better max mag scaling, and they have since the dawn of time. Thats why sorcs stack in max magicka and crit.

When it comes to defensive tools, Cloak>Streak in some situations, and Streak>Cloak in some situations. When it comes to bar space management. Every build has an option. Most stats has an a 2nd option. You can get a sorc to have similar stats to a nightblade. So the argument would only be in the barspace and cloak. Stam Sorc, does recieve less love when it comes to builds, but magsorc is in a really good spot, imo.

But every class has its weakness. Every class has its strengths. That being said all in favor of removing Shadowy disguise.

Sorcerers have several strong class skills. Nightblades have several strong class skills. Both have different playstyles, as you mentioned on their priority of attributes.

Those two classes were the designated DPS classes back in 2014 while the Templars defaulted to healers, and Dragon Knights defaulted to tanks. That was their original role purpose and intent when they formulated their class skills and passives. The origination of the roles has been butchered when the game designers moved to promote the role trinity in those original classes, and why the Warden, Necromancer, and Arcanist have stronger synergy with their class skills and passives from launch.

I agree that Nightblades are a strong class to those who can handle one successfully, and 99.9% of the time their stamina based and hybrid into magic morph skills, as necessary.

As far as healing. You get better healing out of Rally and Vigor than you do Offerings in PVP or any protracted combat where you are sustaining constant damage from different sources. Offering is a better replacement when you are not using Rally or Vigor. Sorcerers also have a strong restore skill tethered to a cast time. However, they can stack the healing with Rally, Vigor and Critical Surge that split the cost over two resources and still toss out their cast time under immoveable pots to time the heal and their primary restore resource pool.

When you decompose the classes their about equal in class kits. This is because ZOS launched ESO with those two classes designated to be the primary DPS classes of the game. Even back in 2014 and now those two classes were built to have high burst damage and supporting skills and passives. Cramming the "Trinity Roles" into one class threatens the identity of these two classes, and they tried to preserve their class skills identity, they still made changes to promote their "Trinity Role" mindset.

The Nightblade and Sorcerer should be threats on the battlefield by their original "Class Identity." They have the toolkit to be exceptional DPS in PVE and combo into high burst damage in PVP e.g. Relentless Focus and Crystal Frags. They should have class skills to adapt and overcome weaknesses to remain competitive in both PVE/PVP.

A good example on the reasons why it's important to keep the original classes strong is the current "ideal" trial running all Arcanists for DPS. the base game is where every new player begins and the first selling point for ZOS on what those four classes can do.

At least in PVP environment, players have the opportunity to learn the strengths and weaknesses that each class can bring to the battlefield. It is probably the only end game content play that allows players to fully test their capabilities of their chosen favorite class.

FoJul

StaticWave wrote: »

Sahidom wrote: »

reazea wrote: »

Sahidom wrote: »

All classes can be made into beasts. I know a beta Nightblade player that is probably in the top 1-3% and expert on the class. He is good, really good and scary to watch his discord stream of his gameplay, and he can call out which sets his target is running by the buffs and skill usages and drop even the tank-y players.

He was once called out by others how broken Nightblade class is. In response, he made a Templar "Gank" Build to prove any class has the potential to be a "Ganker" or execute high burst damage in seconds. That it was not the Nightblade class that was broken but players not understanding their own class or how to pick sets. Too many PVP players do not often play with counters to stealth and become bitter when one drops them.

And the shocking part about any of his builds: The ESO streamers and popular online guides for NB PVP builds are off the mark on gear choices and skill picks. Whereas many players turn to other class guides and expect their PVP experience to be the same as the content providers: and it is often not.

On the topic of Nightblades being OP - they're not. They have a high ceiling for learning how to play the class and several PVP players do not use counters or overly rely on ball group protection to keep them safe from the stealthing opponent.

Except NB's are the most OP class in PvP right now. They have the highest burst damage and the highest burst heal in the game right now. And they have a strong stun and cloak on top of all that. Yes, there is a learning curve to play them well, but that doesn't mean they aren't the most OP class in PvP probably ever in the history of the game right now. Class balance in Cyrodiil right now is the worst it's ever been.

ZOS never balanced classes. This is a factual statement and instead they used set items to balance gameplay. You probably did not PVP when Sorcerers ruled supreme with their pre-prepped 20k+ crystal frags. Each class has their OP characteristics but to the average player those attributes are not learned or realized. I am objectively saying this because this one player did prove to those who claim NB is the most OP class by doing the same stupid high burst with other classes.

PVP is also a playfield with variation of skills and playstyles. Some playstyles do not anticipate the stealthing opponent and that differences do not classify the class to be OP. Stamina versions have always been stronger than magic-based NB; it is like ZOS decided stamina == PVP and magicka == PVE while many of the other classes do not have this issue.

Nightblades are strong now. However, this cannot be stressed enough, those players who are not able to handle stealthing opponents will claim Nightblades are overpowering. There are so many counters to stealth it's stupid and everyone can crouch into stealth and move with equal speed because gankers do not use Concealed Weapon.

The cloaking NBs I fight against run 29-30k armor with 3.5k+ critical resistance. They aren’t going to die even if you reveal them. Oh let’s not forget they also have Major and Minor Expedition on top of a strong burst heal spammable.

Don’t you think it’s a bit absurd that a tanky brawlerblade can just Cloak around?

I mean, at the end of the day, the only reason they have the barspace to fit Cloak, was cause now you can replace Camo Hunter (almost all classes have camo hunter on their bar) , with cloak.

Not only that but brawlers (me being ranged brawler) used to rely on Dark cloak. (this is the healing cloak with no invisibility). Dark cloak has since been nerfed, and does like 300-500 hps fighting, and like 1000-1200 if your standing completely still. {EDITED: Also, Dark cloak scales off of max health now instead of max resource.} And almost no one has the ability to fight standing completely still. Its still ok in some situations, but the other option is 50000% better. I can pop vigor and hit cloak, and move around freely and hit like 2k hps with vigor alone...and then of course you have healthy offering hitting 13k-19k burst heals.

So there is a multitude of problems that caused cloak being *Absurd*. Free Major Prophecy and savagery (on both bars btw). 100% damage mitagation for 3 seconds or unless stealth is broke. It refreshes major bezerk (concealed weapon passive). Refreshes Strike from shadows (vampire passive, free 300 spell dmg). Not only that but if you stealth long enough to sneak (the prone mode) you can instantly medium weave stun from stealth (i bet not a lot of ppl knew that).

I think 1. Buffing Dark cloak 2. Removing the Major prophecy and savagery from invisibility cloak and slapping that on the Dark cloak. might be a more even trade. So pve peeps can still get there Crit chance, while only losing stealth (which they dont use in pve 99% of the time anyways).

Cloak is busted, no one disagree's, just finding a solution that everyone agrees upon, is the real issue.

Another Edit: I might also add, me and several other people, were on PTS the cycle this was changed, telling the devs they cant do this, its to much of a buff to cloak. We warned and warned that almost every nightblade will run cloak, it only makes sense if they keep it the way they did. My point is, Zos should've been aware of the problems that were going to evolve in PvP, and almost just like the concealed buff, they didn't care.

Their excuse is to (Help nightblade in the PvE department. completely neglecting the evidence of some broken builds.) You can only hope that one day the devs will finally listen to the feedback. I'm sure they stopped reading this thread after the first page.

FoJul

My only problem with this thread, is everyone is pointing at every good thing that nightblade has, and wanting it gone. The devs will never do that.

So lets list off everything I have saw so far (within this thread)

1.Cloak (obviously)
2. Merciless Resolve
3. The (best passives in the game)
4. The (best burst heal in the game)
5. The (best barspace utility in the game)
6. The (best Mobility in the game)
7. Mirage/Phantasmal
8. The (best stat coverage in the game)
9. the (best spammable in the game)

There are a few minor things mentioned, like off balance weaves that were mentioned.

So when talking about these things, you can choose 1 maybe 2 things at a time, but everyone has to agree what is the most broken out of this list, and what are their ideas for balancing? You can't change all these things. But also, you need to change at least something.

If everyone could agree on 1 major change and then 1 minor (so 2 things total above) and focus on that consistently, we might can actually get a change. But since everyone wants to come here and give a different answer, nothing will ever be changed.

For my personal opinion, I think 1 and 3 are the issue.

Cloak has always been a problem since day 1 of Eso.

Nightblade as class passives are mid, but when you take in the passives that the skills themselves has (like the Major bezerk on concealed) i think those are stats that nightblade doesn't need. Just from skill passives alone you get so many things.

350-400 Spell dmg passively from Merciless Resolve
Major bezerk from concealed
up to 100% cost reduction on roll dodge
15% mag and stam recovery
Major AND minor expedition
higher uptime on Strike from the shadows (Vamp passive, that nightblade is really the only class that can benefit from it fully)
Health return on kills
20% damage done.
Major and minor cowardice
Minor Courage.

Literally all these are applied to skills as Passives...I think nightblade has the most double/triple effect skills than any other class.

The class passives themselves are mid. Thats why they started adding passives to the skills.

I think the devs in the last 3 years have tried to hard to balance things, Instead of just raising a tooltip of concealed or raising the tooltip on other abilities, they had to add all of these extra stats, that PvP'ers learn to stack more efficiently. If we had a lot less of these extra stats like Major Bezerk and 20% unique damage done after incap. Things like this is what makes nightblade too strong.