Warden Feedback Post Update 40

ESO_Nightingale

Hey all, today I wanted to make a continuation post to my previous one now that Update 40 is about to wrap up development and i know we'll recieve very few class balance changes.

As always, my posts are primarily intended for ZOS, @ZOS_GinaBruno , @ZOS_BrianWheeler @ZOS_Gilliam

I wanted to focus on a major pain point today in order to hopefully see it addressed in the future. Giving fewer but more important pain points for ZOS to work on seems like it'll help fix issues faster rather than dumping multiple at various levels of importance at once. I believe this is a bigger issue overall than just having damage and sustain issues, however, addressing these problems can also help to fix those problems too in PvE environments.

The overall theme today is:

Warden's utility and sustain is too hard to access as a damage dealer without significant tradeoff

---

Because of this, this causes a multitude of issues when it comes to building a trial composition. As we all know, Warden healers are by far the most popular support to bring to a trial and have been for years, when you look at the reasons why, some issues become clear.

Firstly, Warden has awful access to it's own class utility when playing as a damage dealer.
Secondly, Warden's utility is so strong and unique that it cannot be sourced elsewhere without extremely significant tradeoff.

there's also the fact that warden's healing output is quite good and access to the harvest synergy is quite nice, however, neither of these are a problem.

Minor Toughness:

This is the most important part of our class utility that we struggle to gain access to spreading. It's condition to spread it to allies is it's main problem. Warden DPS characters cannot slot an ability and they cannot gain some form of healing allies around them without sacrificing damage beyond using a healing orb synergy which is very infrequent and has a small radius when it comes to buff application. Some slightly more cost effective methods such as lotus blossom take forever to apply to everyone in the group and still fail to provide unique benefit for the dps role.

Every other class has easy conditions for them to achieve such as

(Nightblade)Dealing Critical Damage
(Templar) Casting an ability in the skill line
(Sorcerer) Casting an ability in the skill line
(Dragonknight) Casting an ability in the skill line
and (Arcanist) Casting a class ability.

All of these make sense because every role within those classes has some reason to take an ability from that line, or the reason is open enough where you will always be able to proc it within 20 seconds of the duration. Warden is the only class with one of these passives that cannot reasonably do this with one of their roles. A simple sounding solution would be to make it apply to everyone in an area when you activate it on yourself, or through some other condition that is easily replicable within 20 seconds such as applying a debuff or buff to enemies/allies. Fixing this would allow trial compositions to step a little bit closer towards not always needing a warden healer.

Nature's Gift:

Sticking with the idea that green balance passives are hard to gain access to, there is also Nature's Gift. If there is one thing that Warden damage dealers struggle with right now other than damage output, it's sustaining skills, this is one of the passives we have for sustain which is insanely hard to access as it's condition specifically requires not only healing, but healing an ally with a green balance skill. This is quite possibly one of the most restrictive requirements for any class passive in the game. What makes this problem worse is that the green balance line has nothing that actively helps a damage dealer's output, so we ignore this skill line nearly entirely unless doing solo content or small group content because the trade-off is not worth it.

Major Resolve:

This is a powerful group buff to have and would be fantastic if it was able to at least have 1 morph have some form of damage component so that dps warden would at least be able to share the utility with tanks or supports. Even with some sort of cost to range, favoring supports and tanks.
Unfortunately, as a skill in the winter's embrace line that has no damage output at all tied to it whatsoever, this means it cannot proc the chilled status effect and it likewise also has no unique benefit for using as a DPS. This is a special group buff that, outside of having it tied to your class's rotation, can only be obtained from item sets or from a skill that does not lead to active dps gain which is never worthwhile. Frost Cloak gaining some form of damage morph would heavily assist in not only the utility that dps wardens bring, but it would also grant us another frost damage skill, which would allow us to further build around frost damage. As without it, it's only uniquely provided by non-damage warden roles.

With these types of changes to open up the green balance passives and frost cloak to the dps role, Warden Healers would become less of a strict requirement in trial compositions and more of a good option to have as a healer or tank without downright deleting them from viability, while also allowing warden damage dealers greater access to utility within their class that they currently lack.

Final Note:
When it comes to slotted standardisation changes, i believe that betty netch and its morphs should offer major sorcery and brutality while the ability is slotted. It should be granted on both bars, at all times. this allows the ability to be used only when necessary, helping to heavily reduce the amount of time spent on buff management.

bar_boss_A

As a warden DD main I can say: perfectly on point!
I am quite used to sacrificing damage for lotus or frost mantle and that is not a good thing...

It would be really lovely if lotus blossom would get the "while slotted on either bar" treatment.

But I don't think you have a high chance of getting another damage morph for frost cloak as long as someone is capable of dealing 125k+ DPS-parses with the current state.

ESO_Nightingale

bar_boss_A wrote: »

As a warden DD main I can say: perfectly on point!
I am quite used to sacrificing damage for lotus or frost mantle and that is not a good thing...

It would be really lovely if lotus blossom would get the "while slotted on either bar" treatment.

But I don't think you have a high chance of getting another damage morph for frost cloak as long as someone is capable of dealing 125k+ DPS-parses with the current state.

the funny thing is that i just went over eso logs, and a large majority of dps wardens who are playing (which is not many at all) are not using lotus blossom and none i saw had expansive frost cloak/ice fortress.
it also consistently has some of the worst performance overall of any class.

there's other outliers too, such as magicka arcanist and sorcerer who are not generally used over their stamina counterparts as much.

but i honestly don't think that giving it a reworked frost cloak morph would make it op whatsoever for the change to not make any sense. 125k is an outlier even for frost wardens. i know this because i nearly reached it myself on the previous meta build. your actual average dps on the dummy is more like 117k-119k depending on crit.

MashmalloMan

Agreed, the whole game is kinda messed right now. Class balance and what each class brings to the table needs a lot of work. Hybridization made it worse, but the problem has been there for a long time.

I personally think they should be leaning more into damage dealers having to meet stat thresholds for their unique buffs/debuffs this way supports don't easily fill that void. This concept was introduced with DK's Engulfing Flames Fire Damage dealt debuff scaling based on spell/weapon damage years ago in an effort to stop DK tanks from overshadowing DK damage dealers.

My hope above is a long term solution I can't see happening tomorrow and requires a lot of work, potentially adding new debuffs/buffs that don't even exist in the game.

If we're keeping things simple and looking at the Wardens kit at face value as it stands, yes, these things should change to make them more viable. Especially Natures Gift passive imo.

Lets take a look at that passive archetype in the game and how it compares to other classes:

1. Warden - Nature's Gift: When you heal an ally with a Green Balance ability, you restore 250 Magicka or 250 Stamina, whichever resource pool is lower. This effect can occur once every 1 second.
2. Sorc - Rebate: You restore 300 Magicka or Stamina when one of your non-Ultimate Daedric Summoning abilities end. The resource returned is dictated by the ability's cost.
3. NB - Executioner: When an enemy dies within 2 seconds of being damaged by you, you restore 1000 Magicka and Stamina.
4. Necro - Death Gleaning: Whenever an enemy you are in combat with dies within 28 meters of you, restore 666 Magicka and Stamina.
5. Arcanist - Hideous Clarity: You've stared too long into the abyss. When you generate Crux, you restore 225 Magicka or Stamina, whichever maximum is higher.
6. DK - Eternal Mountain: When you cast an Ultimate ability, you restore 50 Health 50 Magicka, and 50 Stamina for each point of the Ultimate spent.
7. Templar - N/A: Nothing comparable for a flat return when doing a class function.

Obviously, I'm not going over the entire classes sustain issues/benefits, I'm comparing 1:1 based on the passive archetype present in almost every class. I'm aware Templars and Sorcs have cost reduction, Necro gets 200 mag/stam reg and DKs don't have any passive regeneration, but also get sustain from burning/poisoned. This list appears as similar value for every class and is obviously intentional.

Of the 7 classes, Warden's flat resource return passive is by far the worst AND functionally hard to proc, it's the only 1 that not only requires you to heal someone once a second, but also requires it to be a Green Balance skill... while giving return to your lowest pool, not both.

NBs you just hit the enemy with a light attack within 2s, Necros just have to be in range, DK casts ults like every other class passively but can also build into it via better ult gen sources, Arcanists core concept revolves around Crux so every role is doing this already. Sorc is really the only "bad" 1 here because it's also specified to the skill line and does 1 type of resource instead of both, but we have other sustain passives so it's not a big deal.

Nature's Gift just sucks. I get in ZOS's minds Warden is 1 with nature so that is where the passive shines like how Necro is 1 with death so they get it from dead enemies or how NB is 1 with Assassination so they get it from specific dead enemies... but c'mon, there has to be a better way than Healing + Healing an Ally, not yourself + Green Balance Skills + Once a Second + Only Your Lowest Pool.

5 conditions for 1 passive is ridiculous.

Soarora

I totally think buffing/reworking lotus would be a good idea. As it stands, both morphs are basically useless. I say this as someone who uses the blue morph (for the crit chance mostly)… people think I’m crazy for doing so. It gives decent minor toughness uptimes but its just not enough to be considered over having a warden healer. It also has sad healing IMO. Might as well just slot budding seeds or radiating vigor.

i11ionward

Separating class skill lines as DD, tank, healer for DLC classes is sucks, we need mixed skill lines like base classes.

merpins

Cries in PVE stam warden DPS

Panderbander

At least you don't have to cast the most expensive single target heal in the game while at full health (and hope you're not missing a single point of hp) to gain 3000 of the other resource like werewolves do.

pikHz

Soarora wrote: »

I totally think buffing/reworking lotus would be a good idea. As it stands, both morphs are basically useless. I say this as someone who uses the blue morph (for the crit chance mostly)… people think I’m crazy for doing so. It gives decent minor toughness uptimes but its just not enough to be considered over having a warden healer. It also has sad healing IMO. Might as well just slot budding seeds or radiating vigor.

My ideas with Lotus Flower are:
1. Major Brutality Savagery and Major Sorcery Prophecy for slotting on either bar (thanks @ESO_Nightingale for catching the mistake)
2. Cost is based on lower maximum resource and stays equivalent to live
3. Base skill and both morphs have 30 second duration on the activation
4. Radius reduction due to the power I'm suggesting introducing to the skills (maybe 12 or 15 meters?)
5. Green Lotus adds more than one additional target... possibly up to four total targets
6. Lotus Blossom loses some healing power (maybe cut in half or something) but adds a damage component to light attacks - either Bleed or Poison - the skill would need a rename and maybe a new icon I think
7. These changes go along with changes to Maturation & Nature's Gift

• Maturation now procs Minor Toughness on you and your group when you heal yourself or an ally with a Green Balance ability (note that non-grouped allies will no longer benefit)
• Nature's Gift can proc off of healing yourself

I feel like these changes would go a long way to addressing the issues with providing Minor Toughness as a DD and would add an additional DOT option within the class kit, as well as making one of our useful sustain bonuses actually worth using in PVE as a DD. I welcome any and all thoughts.

ESO_Nightingale

pikHz wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

I totally think buffing/reworking lotus would be a good idea. As it stands, both morphs are basically useless. I say this as someone who uses the blue morph (for the crit chance mostly)… people think I’m crazy for doing so. It gives decent minor toughness uptimes but its just not enough to be considered over having a warden healer. It also has sad healing IMO. Might as well just slot budding seeds or radiating vigor.

My ideas with Lotus Flower are:
1. Major Brutality and Major Sorcery for slotting on either bar
2. Cost is based on lower maximum resource and stays equivalent to live
3. Base skill and both morphs have 30 second duration on the activation
4. Radius reduction due to the power I'm suggesting introducing to the skills (maybe 12 or 15 meters?)
5. Green Lotus adds more than one additional target... possibly up to four total targets
6. Lotus Blossom loses some healing power (maybe cut in half or something) but adds a damage component to light attacks - either Bleed or Poison - the skill would need a rename and maybe a new icon I think
7. These changes go along with changes to Maturation & Nature's Gift

• Maturation now procs Minor Toughness on you and your group when you heal yourself or an ally with a Green Balance ability (note that non-grouped allies will no longer benefit)
• Nature's Gift can proc off of healing yourself

I feel like these changes would go a long way to addressing the issues with providing Minor Toughness as a DD and would add an additional DOT option within the class kit, as well as making one of our useful sustain bonuses actually worth using in PVE as a DD. I welcome any and all thoughts.

my major gripe with this is that major brutality and sorcery are already gained by betty, did you mean savagery and prophecy?
additionally, the idea is not bad though green lotus already increases the healing amount in addition to healing more targets.

ESO_Nightingale

Panderbander wrote: »

At least you don't have to cast the most expensive single target heal in the game while at full health (and hope you're not missing a single point of hp) to gain 3000 of the other resource like werewolves do.

well that's not good but it also doesn't relate to warden whatsoever.

Soarora

pikHz wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

I totally think buffing/reworking lotus would be a good idea. As it stands, both morphs are basically useless. I say this as someone who uses the blue morph (for the crit chance mostly)… people think I’m crazy for doing so. It gives decent minor toughness uptimes but its just not enough to be considered over having a warden healer. It also has sad healing IMO. Might as well just slot budding seeds or radiating vigor.

My ideas with Lotus Flower are:
1. Major Brutality and Major Sorcery for slotting on either bar
2. Cost is based on lower maximum resource and stays equivalent to live
3. Base skill and both morphs have 30 second duration on the activation
4. Radius reduction due to the power I'm suggesting introducing to the skills (maybe 12 or 15 meters?)
5. Green Lotus adds more than one additional target... possibly up to four total targets
6. Lotus Blossom loses some healing power (maybe cut in half or something) but adds a damage component to light attacks - either Bleed or Poison - the skill would need a rename and maybe a new icon I think
7. These changes go along with changes to Maturation & Nature's Gift

• Maturation now procs Minor Toughness on you and your group when you heal yourself or an ally with a Green Balance ability (note that non-grouped allies will no longer benefit)
• Nature's Gift can proc off of healing yourself

I feel like these changes would go a long way to addressing the issues with providing Minor Toughness as a DD and would add an additional DOT option within the class kit, as well as making one of our useful sustain bonuses actually worth using in PVE as a DD. I welcome any and all thoughts.

Could make use of the base morph to give lotus 3 morphs: healer (more targets+more healing), magdps (frost dmg), and stamdps (bleed or poison). It wouldn't fit thematically persay but given how much stamdps is in the gutter right now, frost dmg being the unmorphed version and then bleed/poison (maybe with a damage increase?) being the morphed version would make sense to me.

bar_boss_A

pikHz wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

7. These changes go along with changes to Maturation & Nature's Gift

• Maturation now procs Minor Toughness on you and your group when you heal yourself or an ally with a Green Balance ability (note that non-grouped allies will no longer benefit)
• Nature's Gift can proc off of healing yourself

THIS and on overhealing

ESO_Nightingale

Soarora wrote: »

pikHz wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

I totally think buffing/reworking lotus would be a good idea. As it stands, both morphs are basically useless. I say this as someone who uses the blue morph (for the crit chance mostly)… people think I’m crazy for doing so. It gives decent minor toughness uptimes but its just not enough to be considered over having a warden healer. It also has sad healing IMO. Might as well just slot budding seeds or radiating vigor.

My ideas with Lotus Flower are:
1. Major Brutality and Major Sorcery for slotting on either bar
2. Cost is based on lower maximum resource and stays equivalent to live
3. Base skill and both morphs have 30 second duration on the activation
4. Radius reduction due to the power I'm suggesting introducing to the skills (maybe 12 or 15 meters?)
5. Green Lotus adds more than one additional target... possibly up to four total targets
6. Lotus Blossom loses some healing power (maybe cut in half or something) but adds a damage component to light attacks - either Bleed or Poison - the skill would need a rename and maybe a new icon I think
7. These changes go along with changes to Maturation & Nature's Gift

• Maturation now procs Minor Toughness on you and your group when you heal yourself or an ally with a Green Balance ability (note that non-grouped allies will no longer benefit)
• Nature's Gift can proc off of healing yourself

I feel like these changes would go a long way to addressing the issues with providing Minor Toughness as a DD and would add an additional DOT option within the class kit, as well as making one of our useful sustain bonuses actually worth using in PVE as a DD. I welcome any and all thoughts.

Could make use of the base morph to give lotus 3 morphs: healer (more targets+more healing), magdps (frost dmg), and stamdps (bleed or poison). It wouldn't fit thematically persay but given how much stamdps is in the gutter right now, frost dmg being the unmorphed version and then bleed/poison (maybe with a damage increase?) being the morphed version would make sense to me.

They never make the unmorphed version of a skill better than taking a morph. I highly doubt they'd do that.

MashmalloMan

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

pikHz wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

I totally think buffing/reworking lotus would be a good idea. As it stands, both morphs are basically useless. I say this as someone who uses the blue morph (for the crit chance mostly)… people think I’m crazy for doing so. It gives decent minor toughness uptimes but its just not enough to be considered over having a warden healer. It also has sad healing IMO. Might as well just slot budding seeds or radiating vigor.

My ideas with Lotus Flower are:
1. Major Brutality and Major Sorcery for slotting on either bar
2. Cost is based on lower maximum resource and stays equivalent to live
3. Base skill and both morphs have 30 second duration on the activation
4. Radius reduction due to the power I'm suggesting introducing to the skills (maybe 12 or 15 meters?)
5. Green Lotus adds more than one additional target... possibly up to four total targets
6. Lotus Blossom loses some healing power (maybe cut in half or something) but adds a damage component to light attacks - either Bleed or Poison - the skill would need a rename and maybe a new icon I think
7. These changes go along with changes to Maturation & Nature's Gift

• Maturation now procs Minor Toughness on you and your group when you heal yourself or an ally with a Green Balance ability (note that non-grouped allies will no longer benefit)
• Nature's Gift can proc off of healing yourself

I feel like these changes would go a long way to addressing the issues with providing Minor Toughness as a DD and would add an additional DOT option within the class kit, as well as making one of our useful sustain bonuses actually worth using in PVE as a DD. I welcome any and all thoughts.

Could make use of the base morph to give lotus 3 morphs: healer (more targets+more healing), magdps (frost dmg), and stamdps (bleed or poison). It wouldn't fit thematically persay but given how much stamdps is in the gutter right now, frost dmg being the unmorphed version and then bleed/poison (maybe with a damage increase?) being the morphed version would make sense to me.

They never make the unmorphed version of a skill better than taking a morph. I highly doubt they'd do that.

Not intentionally 😉 Silver Shards base skill is considered single target, so classes that don't use or require AOE and just want better DPS from their CP setup can rely on it unmorphed.

..but yeah, until there is precedent for 3 morphs, not really worth considering a 3rd version of a skill, intentional or not. It's best to focus on how we can work within ZOS's framework of how skills are designed to make a better argument for the future of the class.

I like OPs ideas. 3 things:

1. Bleed damage is preferable as I think it fits the Stam side of Warden's identity they should lean more into and is quite lacking for the class.

2. Don't really agree with the 30s duration, I quite like the new dichotomy between the healer focused morph being 20s vs the solo focused morph being 60s. Oddly enough, damage dealers have much more buff management to deal with because of static/dynamic rotations so reducing that in anyway makes sense, it's just for themselves...while support roles make more decisions based on when a skill suits the situation they need, a tad more buff management for them isn't as detrimental and the skill is effecting not just themselves, but multiple people so the value proposition is much higher.

3. Pretty sure they meant prophecy/savagery because of Betty, but here I disagree with it being slotted on either bar simply because I think Betty deserves that treatment instead. Betty is sustain related, it's not always necessary to have, but currently feels restrictive because you want to keep up that brutality/sorcery up for 100% uptime. It should be used when a Warden needs it, more of a choice like other classes sustain skills. With the current and proposed changes for Lotus Flower, it feels like you'd want to keep it up 100% of the time for the effects as a healer or damage dealer alone, so managing that uptime properly is naturally intuitive.

Soarora

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

pikHz wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

I totally think buffing/reworking lotus would be a good idea. As it stands, both morphs are basically useless. I say this as someone who uses the blue morph (for the crit chance mostly)… people think I’m crazy for doing so. It gives decent minor toughness uptimes but its just not enough to be considered over having a warden healer. It also has sad healing IMO. Might as well just slot budding seeds or radiating vigor.

My ideas with Lotus Flower are:
1. Major Brutality and Major Sorcery for slotting on either bar
2. Cost is based on lower maximum resource and stays equivalent to live
3. Base skill and both morphs have 30 second duration on the activation
4. Radius reduction due to the power I'm suggesting introducing to the skills (maybe 12 or 15 meters?)
5. Green Lotus adds more than one additional target... possibly up to four total targets
6. Lotus Blossom loses some healing power (maybe cut in half or something) but adds a damage component to light attacks - either Bleed or Poison - the skill would need a rename and maybe a new icon I think
7. These changes go along with changes to Maturation & Nature's Gift

• Maturation now procs Minor Toughness on you and your group when you heal yourself or an ally with a Green Balance ability (note that non-grouped allies will no longer benefit)
• Nature's Gift can proc off of healing yourself

I feel like these changes would go a long way to addressing the issues with providing Minor Toughness as a DD and would add an additional DOT option within the class kit, as well as making one of our useful sustain bonuses actually worth using in PVE as a DD. I welcome any and all thoughts.

Could make use of the base morph to give lotus 3 morphs: healer (more targets+more healing), magdps (frost dmg), and stamdps (bleed or poison). It wouldn't fit thematically persay but given how much stamdps is in the gutter right now, frost dmg being the unmorphed version and then bleed/poison (maybe with a damage increase?) being the morphed version would make sense to me.

They never make the unmorphed version of a skill better than taking a morph. I highly doubt they'd do that.

I know they don’t, they probably should though. Lots of things would benefit from a third morph.

ESO_Nightingale

Soarora wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

pikHz wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

I totally think buffing/reworking lotus would be a good idea. As it stands, both morphs are basically useless. I say this as someone who uses the blue morph (for the crit chance mostly)… people think I’m crazy for doing so. It gives decent minor toughness uptimes but its just not enough to be considered over having a warden healer. It also has sad healing IMO. Might as well just slot budding seeds or radiating vigor.

My ideas with Lotus Flower are:
1. Major Brutality and Major Sorcery for slotting on either bar
2. Cost is based on lower maximum resource and stays equivalent to live
3. Base skill and both morphs have 30 second duration on the activation
4. Radius reduction due to the power I'm suggesting introducing to the skills (maybe 12 or 15 meters?)
5. Green Lotus adds more than one additional target... possibly up to four total targets
6. Lotus Blossom loses some healing power (maybe cut in half or something) but adds a damage component to light attacks - either Bleed or Poison - the skill would need a rename and maybe a new icon I think
7. These changes go along with changes to Maturation & Nature's Gift

• Maturation now procs Minor Toughness on you and your group when you heal yourself or an ally with a Green Balance ability (note that non-grouped allies will no longer benefit)
• Nature's Gift can proc off of healing yourself

I feel like these changes would go a long way to addressing the issues with providing Minor Toughness as a DD and would add an additional DOT option within the class kit, as well as making one of our useful sustain bonuses actually worth using in PVE as a DD. I welcome any and all thoughts.

Could make use of the base morph to give lotus 3 morphs: healer (more targets+more healing), magdps (frost dmg), and stamdps (bleed or poison). It wouldn't fit thematically persay but given how much stamdps is in the gutter right now, frost dmg being the unmorphed version and then bleed/poison (maybe with a damage increase?) being the morphed version would make sense to me.

They never make the unmorphed version of a skill better than taking a morph. I highly doubt they'd do that.

I know they don’t, they probably should though. Lots of things would benefit from a third morph.

They certainly would but it's quite an undertaking to implement so many for so many different classes/weapons etc

Panderbander

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Panderbander wrote: »

At least you don't have to cast the most expensive single target heal in the game while at full health (and hope you're not missing a single point of hp) to gain 3000 of the other resource like werewolves do.

well that's not good but it also doesn't relate to warden whatsoever.

It was in relation to the list of flat resource return abilities/passives.

ESO_Nightingale

Panderbander wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Panderbander wrote: »

At least you don't have to cast the most expensive single target heal in the game while at full health (and hope you're not missing a single point of hp) to gain 3000 of the other resource like werewolves do.

well that's not good but it also doesn't relate to warden whatsoever.

It was in relation to the list of flat resource return abilities/passives.

Werewolf acts differently from classes like warden due to limited number of abilities and skill slots allowed during it.​ i do sympathise with the issues of werewolf, vampire, other classes etc. But the comment wasn't extremely relevant to the topic of warden even if you were refering to the list of flat return passives because i didn't bring it up. It came across as a bit snarky as if you were trying to downplay warden's issues.

MashmalloMan

Panderbander wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Panderbander wrote: »

At least you don't have to cast the most expensive single target heal in the game while at full health (and hope you're not missing a single point of hp) to gain 3000 of the other resource like werewolves do.

well that's not good but it also doesn't relate to warden whatsoever.

It was in relation to the list of flat resource return abilities/passives.

If you meant my comment about the class passives, not sure how that relates to a Werewolf skill. I never mentioned abilities, I specifically targetted the resource return passives with flat values since they're all very similar in power budget amongst the classes.

Werewolf isn't a class, it's a subclass since you can combine it with the class passives you play WW on. A NB WW for example is going to get 1k Magicka and Stamina when an enemy dies within 2s of being damaged by you. A Templar Werewolf will get -6% cost reduction. Etc.

Frankly, Warden WW is probably the worst of any of the classes because so much of Warden is attached to "if x is slotted conditions". Off memory, the only bonuses a WW gets from Warden is 15% snare reduction, 2% damage done and better chilled status effect damage. All laughable bonuses in comparison to what other classes can stack for WW.

Either way. Off topic.

Panderbander

My point was really that it could be worse and it was relevant in that it is part of the werewolf sustain package like the passive for warden is also part of its sustain package, particularly if we're bringing up the other class sustain passives. Clearly there was a misunderstanding here on the part of one or both parties. Forgive me for offering information I felt relevant.

Soarora

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

pikHz wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

I totally think buffing/reworking lotus would be a good idea. As it stands, both morphs are basically useless. I say this as someone who uses the blue morph (for the crit chance mostly)… people think I’m crazy for doing so. It gives decent minor toughness uptimes but its just not enough to be considered over having a warden healer. It also has sad healing IMO. Might as well just slot budding seeds or radiating vigor.

My ideas with Lotus Flower are:
1. Major Brutality and Major Sorcery for slotting on either bar
2. Cost is based on lower maximum resource and stays equivalent to live
3. Base skill and both morphs have 30 second duration on the activation
4. Radius reduction due to the power I'm suggesting introducing to the skills (maybe 12 or 15 meters?)
5. Green Lotus adds more than one additional target... possibly up to four total targets
6. Lotus Blossom loses some healing power (maybe cut in half or something) but adds a damage component to light attacks - either Bleed or Poison - the skill would need a rename and maybe a new icon I think
7. These changes go along with changes to Maturation & Nature's Gift

• Maturation now procs Minor Toughness on you and your group when you heal yourself or an ally with a Green Balance ability (note that non-grouped allies will no longer benefit)
• Nature's Gift can proc off of healing yourself

I feel like these changes would go a long way to addressing the issues with providing Minor Toughness as a DD and would add an additional DOT option within the class kit, as well as making one of our useful sustain bonuses actually worth using in PVE as a DD. I welcome any and all thoughts.

Could make use of the base morph to give lotus 3 morphs: healer (more targets+more healing), magdps (frost dmg), and stamdps (bleed or poison). It wouldn't fit thematically persay but given how much stamdps is in the gutter right now, frost dmg being the unmorphed version and then bleed/poison (maybe with a damage increase?) being the morphed version would make sense to me.

They never make the unmorphed version of a skill better than taking a morph. I highly doubt they'd do that.

I know they don’t, they probably should though. Lots of things would benefit from a third morph.

They certainly would but it's quite an undertaking to implement so many for so many different classes/weapons etc

Absolutely. Changing base morphs to be viable instead of adding an actual 3rd morph means they could change things slowly though and even skip adding a 3rd option for skills that don’t need one.
Not saying it’s realistic that ZOS would do this but feedback goes as feedback does.

Panderbander wrote: »

My point was really that it could be worse and it was relevant in that it is part of the werewolf sustain package like the passive for warden is also part of its sustain package, particularly if we're bringing up the other class sustain passives. Clearly there was a misunderstanding here on the part of one or both parties. Forgive me for offering information I felt relevant.

Walking into a house that’s on fire and saying “well at least there isn’t also lava like my house has” isn’t usually a welcome thing to do. The house is still on fire.

ESO_Nightingale

Soarora wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

pikHz wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

I totally think buffing/reworking lotus would be a good idea. As it stands, both morphs are basically useless. I say this as someone who uses the blue morph (for the crit chance mostly)… people think I’m crazy for doing so. It gives decent minor toughness uptimes but its just not enough to be considered over having a warden healer. It also has sad healing IMO. Might as well just slot budding seeds or radiating vigor.

My ideas with Lotus Flower are:
1. Major Brutality and Major Sorcery for slotting on either bar
2. Cost is based on lower maximum resource and stays equivalent to live
3. Base skill and both morphs have 30 second duration on the activation
4. Radius reduction due to the power I'm suggesting introducing to the skills (maybe 12 or 15 meters?)
5. Green Lotus adds more than one additional target... possibly up to four total targets
6. Lotus Blossom loses some healing power (maybe cut in half or something) but adds a damage component to light attacks - either Bleed or Poison - the skill would need a rename and maybe a new icon I think
7. These changes go along with changes to Maturation & Nature's Gift

• Maturation now procs Minor Toughness on you and your group when you heal yourself or an ally with a Green Balance ability (note that non-grouped allies will no longer benefit)
• Nature's Gift can proc off of healing yourself

I feel like these changes would go a long way to addressing the issues with providing Minor Toughness as a DD and would add an additional DOT option within the class kit, as well as making one of our useful sustain bonuses actually worth using in PVE as a DD. I welcome any and all thoughts.

Could make use of the base morph to give lotus 3 morphs: healer (more targets+more healing), magdps (frost dmg), and stamdps (bleed or poison). It wouldn't fit thematically persay but given how much stamdps is in the gutter right now, frost dmg being the unmorphed version and then bleed/poison (maybe with a damage increase?) being the morphed version would make sense to me.

They never make the unmorphed version of a skill better than taking a morph. I highly doubt they'd do that.

I know they don’t, they probably should though. Lots of things would benefit from a third morph.

They certainly would but it's quite an undertaking to implement so many for so many different classes/weapons etc

Absolutely. Changing base morphs to be viable instead of adding an actual 3rd morph means they could change things slowly though and even skip adding a 3rd option for skills that don’t need one.
Not saying it’s realistic that ZOS would do this but feedback goes as feedback does.

Panderbander wrote: »

My point was really that it could be worse and it was relevant in that it is part of the werewolf sustain package like the passive for warden is also part of its sustain package, particularly if we're bringing up the other class sustain passives. Clearly there was a misunderstanding here on the part of one or both parties. Forgive me for offering information I felt relevant.

Walking into a house that’s on fire and saying “well at least there isn’t also lava like my house has” isn’t usually a welcome thing to do. The house is still on fire.

It would be nice but i whenever i suggest things i try to keep things within the scope of possibility and keep with original design ideas and intentions as much as possible. I'm not saying you have to but its just what I've learned to do over many years of suggesting reworks and trying to promote positive changes for the class. The more grounded the idea, the higher the chances of it happening.

MashmalloMan

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

pikHz wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

I totally think buffing/reworking lotus would be a good idea. As it stands, both morphs are basically useless. I say this as someone who uses the blue morph (for the crit chance mostly)… people think I’m crazy for doing so. It gives decent minor toughness uptimes but its just not enough to be considered over having a warden healer. It also has sad healing IMO. Might as well just slot budding seeds or radiating vigor.

My ideas with Lotus Flower are:
1. Major Brutality and Major Sorcery for slotting on either bar
2. Cost is based on lower maximum resource and stays equivalent to live
3. Base skill and both morphs have 30 second duration on the activation
4. Radius reduction due to the power I'm suggesting introducing to the skills (maybe 12 or 15 meters?)
5. Green Lotus adds more than one additional target... possibly up to four total targets
6. Lotus Blossom loses some healing power (maybe cut in half or something) but adds a damage component to light attacks - either Bleed or Poison - the skill would need a rename and maybe a new icon I think
7. These changes go along with changes to Maturation & Nature's Gift

• Maturation now procs Minor Toughness on you and your group when you heal yourself or an ally with a Green Balance ability (note that non-grouped allies will no longer benefit)
• Nature's Gift can proc off of healing yourself

I feel like these changes would go a long way to addressing the issues with providing Minor Toughness as a DD and would add an additional DOT option within the class kit, as well as making one of our useful sustain bonuses actually worth using in PVE as a DD. I welcome any and all thoughts.

Could make use of the base morph to give lotus 3 morphs: healer (more targets+more healing), magdps (frost dmg), and stamdps (bleed or poison). It wouldn't fit thematically persay but given how much stamdps is in the gutter right now, frost dmg being the unmorphed version and then bleed/poison (maybe with a damage increase?) being the morphed version would make sense to me.

They never make the unmorphed version of a skill better than taking a morph. I highly doubt they'd do that.

I know they don’t, they probably should though. Lots of things would benefit from a third morph.

They certainly would but it's quite an undertaking to implement so many for so many different classes/weapons etc

Absolutely. Changing base morphs to be viable instead of adding an actual 3rd morph means they could change things slowly though and even skip adding a 3rd option for skills that don’t need one.
Not saying it’s realistic that ZOS would do this but feedback goes as feedback does.

Panderbander wrote: »

My point was really that it could be worse and it was relevant in that it is part of the werewolf sustain package like the passive for warden is also part of its sustain package, particularly if we're bringing up the other class sustain passives. Clearly there was a misunderstanding here on the part of one or both parties. Forgive me for offering information I felt relevant.

Walking into a house that’s on fire and saying “well at least there isn’t also lava like my house has” isn’t usually a welcome thing to do. The house is still on fire.

It would be nice but i whenever i suggest things i try to keep things within the scope of possibility and keep with original design ideas and intentions as much as possible. I'm not saying you have to but its just what I've learned to do over many years of suggesting reworks and trying to promote positive changes for the class. The more grounded the idea, the higher the chances of it happening.

Agreed, the closer you stay to their framework, their intent of the skill, passive, set, whatever it, the better chances of it actually being considered.

There is a lot I would completely rework, but it's going to never happen. The best we can do is adjust whats already there.

TheGreatBlackBear

I've seen you post feedback about warden for what seems like five years now and patch on patch things never seem to improve. Very depressing. But keep fighting the good fight. I appreciate you

MashmalloMan

TheGreatBlackBear wrote: »

I've seen you post feedback about warden for what seems like five years now and patch on patch things never seem to improve. Very depressing. But keep fighting the good fight. I appreciate you

Wouldn't say that, as a result of these discussions Ice Staves have received a lot of improvements to make them viable. Chilled is now a strong proc for specifically Warden. Arctic Blast is finally a useful damage skill.

Gotta take the wins where you can.. unfortunately ZOS likes to come up with their own version of our requests and instead decided to nerf other areas of Warden to compensate frost staves.. I won't get it into it, but the ice staff requirement of the class was never our ask from them.

It's more of 2 steps forward, 1 step back.

TheGreatBlackBear

MashmalloMan wrote: »

TheGreatBlackBear wrote: »

I've seen you post feedback about warden for what seems like five years now and patch on patch things never seem to improve. Very depressing. But keep fighting the good fight. I appreciate you

Wouldn't say that, as a result of these discussions Ice Staves have received a lot of improvements to make them viable. Chilled is now a strong proc for specifically Warden. Arctic Blast is finally a useful damage skill.

Gotta take the wins where you can.. unfortunately ZOS likes to come up with their own version of our requests and instead decided to nerf other areas of Warden to compensate frost staves.. I won't get it into it, but the ice staff requirement of the class was never our ask from them.

It's more of 2 steps forward, 1 step back.

is it really though? I took a break from the game for a year and came back and found my warden in exactly the same spot having exactly the same problems, the majority of which have existed since the class' introduction:

1) warden's group buff minor toughness has zero damage effects, and there's no real way to give it to the group without incurring a significant damage loss so there's zero reason to bring a warden dps when making a raid comp. Minor Brittle is already covered by the tank as well.

2) despite having its damage cut time after time you are still forced to use the bear which is largely single target, has to manually run to an enemy to attack and despite what ZOS claims is still prone to straight up missing. Special shoutout to the mag morph which effectively does nothing extra for 75% of the fight.

3) wardens have so a lot of buffs/debuffs present in their base kit and the numbers are balanced around having access to those so they don't really scale that well with group buffs.

4) advanced species is largely useless in organised play as the crit cap is easy to reach.

5) all the skills are like 10% too expensive and it feels bad having to slot netch just to sustain as the other buff you get from it is covered by pots.

with the exception of new mechanics like brittle and the change to crit damage these are all issues I faced since Morrowind.

MashmalloMan

TheGreatBlackBear wrote: »

MashmalloMan wrote: »

TheGreatBlackBear wrote: »

I've seen you post feedback about warden for what seems like five years now and patch on patch things never seem to improve. Very depressing. But keep fighting the good fight. I appreciate you

Wouldn't say that, as a result of these discussions Ice Staves have received a lot of improvements to make them viable. Chilled is now a strong proc for specifically Warden. Arctic Blast is finally a useful damage skill.

Gotta take the wins where you can.. unfortunately ZOS likes to come up with their own version of our requests and instead decided to nerf other areas of Warden to compensate frost staves.. I won't get it into it, but the ice staff requirement of the class was never our ask from them.

It's more of 2 steps forward, 1 step back.

is it really though? I took a break from the game for a year and came back and found my warden in exactly the same spot having exactly the same problems, the majority of which have existed since the class' introduction:

1) warden's group buff minor toughness has zero damage effects, and there's no real way to give it to the group without incurring a significant damage loss so there's zero reason to bring a warden dps when making a raid comp. Minor Brittle is already covered by the tank as well.

2) despite having its damage cut time after time you are still forced to use the bear which is largely single target, has to manually run to an enemy to attack and despite what ZOS claims is still prone to straight up missing. Special shoutout to the mag morph which effectively does nothing extra for 75% of the fight.

3) wardens have so a lot of buffs/debuffs present in their base kit and the numbers are balanced around having access to those so they don't really scale that well with group buffs.

4) advanced species is largely useless in organised play as the crit cap is easy to reach.

5) all the skills are like 10% too expensive and it feels bad having to slot netch just to sustain as the other buff you get from it is covered by pots.

with the exception of new mechanics like brittle and the change to crit damage these are all issues I faced since Morrowind.

Like I said.. 2 steps forward, 1 step back. A lot of work needs to be done.

ESO_Nightingale

TheGreatBlackBear wrote: »

I've seen you post feedback about warden for what seems like five years now and patch on patch things never seem to improve. Very depressing. But keep fighting the good fight. I appreciate you

Thanks, it's like a job at this point lol.

Skullstachio

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Hey all, today I wanted to make a continuation post to my previous one now that Update 40 is about to wrap up development and i know we'll recieve very few class balance changes.

As always, my posts are primarily intended for ZOS, @ZOS_GinaBruno , @ZOS_BrianWheeler @ZOS_Gilliam

I wanted to focus on a major pain point today in order to hopefully see it addressed in the future. Giving fewer but more important pain points for ZOS to work on seems like it'll help fix issues faster rather than dumping multiple at various levels of importance at once. I believe this is a bigger issue overall than just having damage and sustain issues, however, addressing these problems can also help to fix those problems too in PvE environments.

The overall theme today is:

Warden's utility and sustain is too hard to access as a damage dealer without significant tradeoff

---

Because of this, this causes a multitude of issues when it comes to building a trial composition. As we all know, Warden healers are by far the most popular support to bring to a trial and have been for years, when you look at the reasons why, some issues become clear.

Firstly, Warden has awful access to it's own class utility when playing as a damage dealer.
Secondly, Warden's utility is so strong and unique that it cannot be sourced elsewhere without extremely significant tradeoff.

there's also the fact that warden's healing output is quite good and access to the harvest synergy is quite nice, however, neither of these are a problem.

Minor Toughness:

This is the most important part of our class utility that we struggle to gain access to spreading. It's condition to spread it to allies is it's main problem. Warden DPS characters cannot slot an ability and they cannot gain some form of healing allies around them without sacrificing damage beyond using a healing orb synergy which is very infrequent and has a small radius when it comes to buff application. Some slightly more cost effective methods such as lotus blossom take forever to apply to everyone in the group and still fail to provide unique benefit for the dps role.

Every other class has easy conditions for them to achieve such as

(Nightblade)Dealing Critical Damage
(Templar) Casting an ability in the skill line
(Sorcerer) Casting an ability in the skill line
(Dragonknight) Casting an ability in the skill line
and (Arcanist) Casting a class ability.

All of these make sense because every role within those classes has some reason to take an ability from that line, or the reason is open enough where you will always be able to proc it within 20 seconds of the duration. Warden is the only class with one of these passives that cannot reasonably do this with one of their roles. A simple sounding solution would be to make it apply to everyone in an area when you activate it on yourself, or through some other condition that is easily replicable within 20 seconds such as applying a debuff or buff to enemies/allies. Fixing this would allow trial compositions to step a little bit closer towards not always needing a warden healer.

Nature's Gift:

Sticking with the idea that green balance passives are hard to gain access to, there is also Nature's Gift. If there is one thing that Warden damage dealers struggle with right now other than damage output, it's sustaining skills, this is one of the passives we have for sustain which is insanely hard to access as it's condition specifically requires not only healing, but healing an ally with a green balance skill. This is quite possibly one of the most restrictive requirements for any class passive in the game. What makes this problem worse is that the green balance line has nothing that actively helps a damage dealer's output, so we ignore this skill line nearly entirely unless doing solo content or small group content because the trade-off is not worth it.

Major Resolve:

This is a powerful group buff to have and would be fantastic if it was able to at least have 1 morph have some form of damage component so that dps warden would at least be able to share the utility with tanks or supports. Even with some sort of cost to range, favoring supports and tanks.
Unfortunately, as a skill in the winter's embrace line that has no damage output at all tied to it whatsoever, this means it cannot proc the chilled status effect and it likewise also has no unique benefit for using as a DPS. This is a special group buff that, outside of having it tied to your class's rotation, can only be obtained from item sets or from a skill that does not lead to active dps gain which is never worthwhile. Frost Cloak gaining some form of damage morph would heavily assist in not only the utility that dps wardens bring, but it would also grant us another frost damage skill, which would allow us to further build around frost damage. As without it, it's only uniquely provided by non-damage warden roles.

With these types of changes to open up the green balance passives and frost cloak to the dps role, Warden Healers would become less of a strict requirement in trial compositions and more of a good option to have as a healer or tank without downright deleting them from viability, while also allowing warden damage dealers greater access to utility within their class that they currently lack.

Final Note:
When it comes to slotted standardisation changes, i believe that betty netch and its morphs should offer major sorcery and brutality while the ability is slotted. It should be granted on both bars, at all times. this allows the ability to be used only when necessary, helping to heavily reduce the amount of time spent on buff management.

I had a few ideas and I'd like to get some thoughts about them.

Expansive frost cloak: Reworked into Frost armaments. Frost Armaments Coat you and your allies weapons in Stahlrim based Frost magic for 20 seconds, causing direct damage Martial Melee Weapon abilities and Frost Damage Abilities to deal a very small amount of frost damage once every 2 seconds to the initial target with a higher chance to apply chilled.

Skullstachio's User Note: base chance would be 10% but thusly would go up to 20% by improving said chance by 100% and making the chance to apply chilled akin to having an enchantment or poison on a weapon.
I also know there could be a few tweaks here to ground the idea a bit more and also that the frost damage component may not be worded right, and yes, "stahlrim based" frost magic is highly questionable from a lore standpoint.

Maturation: slight rework, Grants minor toughness to you and up to 11 other group members within 28 meters at all times, increasing maximum health by 10%.
When you heal an ally, grant them minor toughness for 10/20 seconds. when healing yourself or an ally already affected by minor toughness, they gain minor Vitality for 10/20 seconds, increasing healing received by 8%.

Skullstachio's user note: minor toughness from Maturation could be a permanent buff to the user and to allied group members, but outside of group compositions, it can retain its original function which helps buff pets, NPC's and random players in overland content without snubbing what it brings to the stony table.
The reason for having minor vitality here as well is because there really isn't too many ability based sources of minor vitality that has a form of group application outside of armor sets, dragonknights can get this easily as a solo application with green dragonblood but I would digress since it is about the wardens tool kit.

Natures Gift: moderate rework: when you heal an ally with a green balance ability, they restore 500/1000 magicka or 500/1000 stamina over 4 seconds, whichever resource pool is lower. you restore for the same amount in addition to 250/500 of the other resource over 4 seconds. this effect can occur once every 4 seconds per target, you and allies can only be affected by one instance of Natures gift.

I would also agree with you on the slotted standardisation changes regarding the netch in the room, it should grant major brutality/sorcery at all times while slotted on either bar and be used primarily for sustain utility and passively one debuff removal on cast and every 5 seconds, while also contributing 4% extra crit damage from advanced species on the bar used for damage.

Pretty sure someone else brought this up too by the way which is off-topic, but I would agree when it was said that subterranean assault should deal bleed damage and have the shalks in that ability morph replaced with assassin beetles since it would be somewhat lore-friendly in that regard.

ESO_Nightingale

Skullstachio wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Hey all, today I wanted to make a continuation post to my previous one now that Update 40 is about to wrap up development and i know we'll recieve very few class balance changes.

As always, my posts are primarily intended for ZOS, @ZOS_GinaBruno , @ZOS_BrianWheeler @ZOS_Gilliam

I wanted to focus on a major pain point today in order to hopefully see it addressed in the future. Giving fewer but more important pain points for ZOS to work on seems like it'll help fix issues faster rather than dumping multiple at various levels of importance at once. I believe this is a bigger issue overall than just having damage and sustain issues, however, addressing these problems can also help to fix those problems too in PvE environments.

The overall theme today is:

Warden's utility and sustain is too hard to access as a damage dealer without significant tradeoff

---

Because of this, this causes a multitude of issues when it comes to building a trial composition. As we all know, Warden healers are by far the most popular support to bring to a trial and have been for years, when you look at the reasons why, some issues become clear.

Firstly, Warden has awful access to it's own class utility when playing as a damage dealer.
Secondly, Warden's utility is so strong and unique that it cannot be sourced elsewhere without extremely significant tradeoff.

there's also the fact that warden's healing output is quite good and access to the harvest synergy is quite nice, however, neither of these are a problem.

Minor Toughness:

This is the most important part of our class utility that we struggle to gain access to spreading. It's condition to spread it to allies is it's main problem. Warden DPS characters cannot slot an ability and they cannot gain some form of healing allies around them without sacrificing damage beyond using a healing orb synergy which is very infrequent and has a small radius when it comes to buff application. Some slightly more cost effective methods such as lotus blossom take forever to apply to everyone in the group and still fail to provide unique benefit for the dps role.

Every other class has easy conditions for them to achieve such as

(Nightblade)Dealing Critical Damage
(Templar) Casting an ability in the skill line
(Sorcerer) Casting an ability in the skill line
(Dragonknight) Casting an ability in the skill line
and (Arcanist) Casting a class ability.

All of these make sense because every role within those classes has some reason to take an ability from that line, or the reason is open enough where you will always be able to proc it within 20 seconds of the duration. Warden is the only class with one of these passives that cannot reasonably do this with one of their roles. A simple sounding solution would be to make it apply to everyone in an area when you activate it on yourself, or through some other condition that is easily replicable within 20 seconds such as applying a debuff or buff to enemies/allies. Fixing this would allow trial compositions to step a little bit closer towards not always needing a warden healer.

Nature's Gift:

Sticking with the idea that green balance passives are hard to gain access to, there is also Nature's Gift. If there is one thing that Warden damage dealers struggle with right now other than damage output, it's sustaining skills, this is one of the passives we have for sustain which is insanely hard to access as it's condition specifically requires not only healing, but healing an ally with a green balance skill. This is quite possibly one of the most restrictive requirements for any class passive in the game. What makes this problem worse is that the green balance line has nothing that actively helps a damage dealer's output, so we ignore this skill line nearly entirely unless doing solo content or small group content because the trade-off is not worth it.

Major Resolve:

This is a powerful group buff to have and would be fantastic if it was able to at least have 1 morph have some form of damage component so that dps warden would at least be able to share the utility with tanks or supports. Even with some sort of cost to range, favoring supports and tanks.
Unfortunately, as a skill in the winter's embrace line that has no damage output at all tied to it whatsoever, this means it cannot proc the chilled status effect and it likewise also has no unique benefit for using as a DPS. This is a special group buff that, outside of having it tied to your class's rotation, can only be obtained from item sets or from a skill that does not lead to active dps gain which is never worthwhile. Frost Cloak gaining some form of damage morph would heavily assist in not only the utility that dps wardens bring, but it would also grant us another frost damage skill, which would allow us to further build around frost damage. As without it, it's only uniquely provided by non-damage warden roles.

With these types of changes to open up the green balance passives and frost cloak to the dps role, Warden Healers would become less of a strict requirement in trial compositions and more of a good option to have as a healer or tank without downright deleting them from viability, while also allowing warden damage dealers greater access to utility within their class that they currently lack.

Final Note:
When it comes to slotted standardisation changes, i believe that betty netch and its morphs should offer major sorcery and brutality while the ability is slotted. It should be granted on both bars, at all times. this allows the ability to be used only when necessary, helping to heavily reduce the amount of time spent on buff management.

I had a few ideas and I'd like to get some thoughts about them.

Expansive frost cloak: Reworked into Frost armaments. Frost Armaments Coat you and your allies weapons in Stahlrim based Frost magic for 20 seconds, causing direct damage Martial Melee Weapon abilities and Frost Damage Abilities to deal a very small amount of frost damage once every 2 seconds to the initial target with a higher chance to apply chilled.

Skullstachio's User Note: base chance would be 10% but thusly would go up to 20% by improving said chance by 100% and making the chance to apply chilled akin to having an enchantment or poison on a weapon.
I also know there could be a few tweaks here to ground the idea a bit more and also that the frost damage component may not be worded right, and yes, "stahlrim based" frost magic is highly questionable from a lore standpoint.

Maturation: slight rework, Grants minor toughness to you and up to 11 other group members within 28 meters at all times, increasing maximum health by 10%.
When you heal an ally, grant them minor toughness for 10/20 seconds. when healing yourself or an ally already affected by minor toughness, they gain minor Vitality for 10/20 seconds, increasing healing received by 8%.

Skullstachio's user note: minor toughness from Maturation could be a permanent buff to the user and to allied group members, but outside of group compositions, it can retain its original function which helps buff pets, NPC's and random players in overland content without snubbing what it brings to the stony table.
The reason for having minor vitality here as well is because there really isn't too many ability based sources of minor vitality that has a form of group application outside of armor sets, dragonknights can get this easily as a solo application with green dragonblood but I would digress since it is about the wardens tool kit.

Natures Gift: moderate rework: when you heal an ally with a green balance ability, they restore 500/1000 magicka or 500/1000 stamina over 4 seconds, whichever resource pool is lower. you restore for the same amount in addition to 250/500 of the other resource over 4 seconds. this effect can occur once every 4 seconds per target, you and allies can only be affected by one instance of Natures gift.

I would also agree with you on the slotted standardisation changes regarding the netch in the room, it should grant major brutality/sorcery at all times while slotted on either bar and be used primarily for sustain utility and passively one debuff removal on cast and every 5 seconds, while also contributing 4% extra crit damage from advanced species on the bar used for damage.

Pretty sure someone else brought this up too by the way which is off-topic, but I would agree when it was said that subterranean assault should deal bleed damage and have the shalks in that ability morph replaced with assassin beetles since it would be somewhat lore-friendly in that regard.

I don't mind the idea of making your weapon and frost damage attacks to deal extra damage as frost damage with an increased chance to apply chilled, however it shouldn't be a different group buff than major resolve. The idea is that we want to gain access to spreading major resolve to allies.

I don't think minor vitality is needed as a group buff on warden. We already have enough group buffs, we just don't have good access to them. And increasing resource return to allies is not necessary either.