AI of ToT is too OP

subarctic

Played two games against Varnauld Broch in Wayrest, as part of a quest tournament for my new 18 level toon. First game he had 5 tribute cards on the table and lots of cards with high numbers, so he won quickly. Second time: again he had 5 tribute cards on the table and lots of cards with high numbers, so he won 51 v 22. My toon only had bad cards. No fun.

ZOS_Icy

Greetings,

After further review we have decided to move this thread to a category we think is more appropriate for this topic.

Thank you for your understanding.

Muizer

subarctic wrote: »

Played two games against Varnauld Broch in Wayrest, as part of a quest tournament for my new 18 level toon. First game he had 5 tribute cards on the table and lots of cards with high numbers, so he won quickly. Second time: again he had 5 tribute cards on the table and lots of cards with high numbers, so he won 51 v 22. My toon only had bad cards. No fun.

Pro tip: don't buy bad cards!

Sorry, couldn't resist. But there's some truth in it.

Buying a bad card not only weakens your hand, it also may be replaced in the tavern with a valuable card that you won't then be able to buy anymore, leaving it for your opponent.

An unlucky streak of such events could lead to the situation you describe.

Try avoiding removing bad cards from the tavern when you won't have enough coin left to have a fair shot at buying a good card that might replace it.

Sometimes it's better to end turn even if you have gold left to spend.

SeaGtGruff

I haven't played through the ToT questline on any of my alts, and it was long ago that I did it on my mains, so I haven't seen how the improved AI has affected the NPCs you have to play against in the questline.

With regard to the NPCs you play against for the dailies, I play only the Expert NPCs, and although they do beat me once in a while-- especially when they've chosen Pelin for one of their decks-- most of the time I can beat them due to mistakes they'll make that a human player probably wouldn't make.

My recollection about the questline NPC opponents is that if I lost a match, I could just play them again as many times as needed until I won, and the number of matches that I lost before I finally won didn't seem to affect the questline at all.

BigMakatak

@SeaGtGruff The novice NPCs have definitely gotten significantly smarter ever since Necrom released (perhaps since Scribes of Fate released? It's been a busy year for me). I think by now all of the ToT NPCs play noticibly better. I guess the devs wanted more people challenging the Proficient and Expert ToT NPCs, so they made the Novice and Proficient ones make smarter moves. Fortunately, their deck-access hasn't changed.

For more information, see this topic: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/636271/tot-npcs-excessively-difficult/p1

Necrotech_Master

i only did the tribute storyline once, havent tried it again since

but i also find the NPCs incredibly easy at this point, its very rare that an npc even gets close to having a win lol

i only usually play novices right now, because theres no incentive to play any of the other difficulties since the rewards are the same, but on occasion i do play the other difficulties and all of the NPCs feel the same to me, very easy lol

Neoauspex

You can't just beat them in 5 or 6 turns on patrons anymore, but once you've practiced a bunch against players you can just toy with the NPCs. The only way they might play half-optimally is if they get a good Orgnum card first turn and then just spam the patron the rest of the way. I spent some time the other day trying to beat an NPC in the most demoralizing possible way: https://youtu.be/JqfMH9dy-sY

SeaGtGruff

I routinely win against the Expert NPCs, but occasionally they do beat me. It's usually a combination of them getting lucky with being able to buy good cards before I can, coupled with a tendency on my part to feel complacent about being able to come from behind and beat them soundly because I've been able to do that before, as well as mistakes on my part such as buying or removing cards from the Tavern when my instinct is to do otherwise and the replacement cards end up being some really strong cards that the NPC is able to immediately snatch up.

The AI is definitely much better than it used to be at the game's introduction, but if you pay attention to what the NPCs do in various situations then you can definitely anticipate their decisions and, if you're lucky enough to be in a position to do so, you can successfully manipulate them into playing themselves into a corner they can't escape from.

disky

Personally, for the Expert-level NPCs, I'm a lot happier when I'm uncertain about my chances. For Novice, it's understandable to be a little frustrated if you're losing regularly but I feel like it's important that a challenge is available if you seek it out. In a game that is exceedingly easy in many respects, isn't it nice to be challenged once in a while? It's a puzzle to be solved, and overcoming it can be so satisfying.

Keep trying! Sometimes you just have a round of bad luck, but if you stick to a couple of decks that work well together then you've got a decent chance of winning every time. And don't sell the neutral cards short! They're extremely important, especially the ones that allow you to remove cards from your deck. You want to shave your deck down to the essentials so you're always pulling useful cards.

katanagirl1

The tutorial, unless they changed it after launch, is completely unhelpful for new players in adequately teaching how to play the game. I remember struggling against the npcs at first back then but they never used patrons at all. Players who don’t want to play other players for a more challenging game instead complained until the npcs were made more difficult. This topic is just like the “harder overland” discussion, once people get good at the game they want everything scaled to their current level, to the detriment of new players.

BlackRaidho

AI is pretty predictable and easy to beat.

Actually, since i start ToT, i always played the expert one because the others are not enough challenging.

Calastir

No, no, NO.
AI is unbeatable when it keeps giving itself the best cards leaving the player with crap to spend.

SeaGtGruff

Calastir wrote: »

No, no, NO.
AI is unbeatable when it keeps giving itself the best cards leaving the player with crap to spend.

It's a combination of things-- the order of the cards in the deck, who goes first, the cards that the AI buys and that you buy, the order of the cards in the AI's draw pile and in your draw pile, etc.

The vast majority of the time, I can win against the AI. But occasionally it will win, seemingly because I can't get a break. Case in point, the other night I lost 3 matches in a row (!) to one of the NPCs, which is pretty rare for me although it does happen. It also feels like they tweaked the AI again recently, which has contributed to more losses than usual on my part during the past few weeks.

When it starts to look like the RNG is totally against you, it's time to reexamine your choices and see what you can do to throw the rhythm off to be more on your side. This generally involves making careful choices about which cards to leave as bait for the AI in the Tavern, meaning cards that you're pretty sure it will spend its coin on. That might involve making some sacrifices on your part, such as leaving your agents open and letting the AI knock one or more of them out. Sacrifices like that might set you back for a move or two, but sonetimes they can help alter the rhythm of which cards the AI is buying and which cards are coming up in the Tavern for you to buy.

ZOS_Hadeostry

Greetings,

We have closed this topic as it was originally created in October 2023. In many cases, it's better to create a new thread on a topic that you want to discuss as opposed to bumping one that is rather old.

Thank you for your understanding.