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Request: give Maw of Lorkhaj a trifecta achievement
boi_anachronism_
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Id love to see some of the bosses get a health a buff and an actual trifecta achievement and reward added to this trial. Its legitimately awesome. It has very unique mechs and if people couldnt burn it so fast it actually requires a ton of mechanical knowledge. I want to see interest returned to this trial. Please consider it 🙏
Edited by ZOS_Icy on 26 September 2023 10:17 5
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Tyrant_Tim✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Why stop there? We could see a revamp of all of the old trials and arenas, adding trifecta achievements, more difficulty, and perfected gear for Veteran.
Some sets look really interesting for PvP, like Moondancer for a Necromancer, but that 3-piece kills the set.Edited by Tyrant_Tim on 23 September 2023 22:293 -
FantasticFreddie✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Give it an ULTRA hardmode, that is the same but with much higher health, forcing people to run the backyard, and give it triple drops, it's own unique achievement and tie the trifecta to it.
Leave the existing boss fights and achievements as they are, so that groups currently in that content don't get nuked2 -
sarahthes✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭FantasticFreddie wrote: »Give it an ULTRA hardmode, that is the same but with much higher health, forcing people to run the backyard, and give it triple drops, it's own unique achievement and tie the trifecta to it.
Leave the existing boss fights and achievements as they are, so that groups currently in that content don't get nuked
Give it a mount.1 -
FantasticFreddie✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Give it an ULTRA hardmodeFantasticFreddie wrote: »Give it an ULTRA hardmode, that is the same but with much higher health, forcing people to run the backyard, and give it triple drops, it's own unique achievement and tie the trifecta to it.
Leave the existing boss fights and achievements as they are, so that groups currently in that content don't get nuked
Give it a mount.
GIVE IT A MOUNT
A DRO'MATHRA THEMED MOUNT1 -
TaSheen✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Isn't it Maw of Lorkhaj? Not Lorkhan? Or am I confused by something else.... entirely possible of course.______________________________________________________
"But even in books, the heroes make mistakes, and there isn't always a happy ending." Mercedes Lackey, Into the West
PC NA, PC EU (non steam)- four accounts, many alts....0 -
Dr_Con✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Isn't it Maw of Lorkhaj? Not Lorkhan? Or am I confused by something else.... entirely possible of course.
Lorkhaj is the Khajiit interpretation of who the elves call Lorkhan. Nord call it Shor, Imperial call it Shezarr.
Oh yeah, the title should have said Maw of Lorkhaj.Edited by Dr_Con on 24 September 2023 18:330 -
fall0athboy✭✭✭✭Yeah, all the old trials should be updated to have modern achievements. Hell, the Craglorn ones don't even have No-Deaths1 -
Dragonnord✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Yes, agree, same as with Dragonstar Arena that also needs various achievements and a trifecta.SERVER: NA | PLATFORM: PC | OS: Windows 10 | CLIENT: Steam | ESO PLUS: Yes0 -
boi_anachronism_✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭FantasticFreddie wrote: »Give it an ULTRA hardmode, that is the same but with much higher health, forcing people to run the backyard, and give it triple drops, it's own unique achievement and tie the trifecta to it.
Leave the existing boss fights and achievements as they are, so that groups currently in that content don't get nuked
Give it a mount.
Lol no one can run backyard anymore 😅 ive done it for hm and ff a million times now. Everyone should know it0 -
sarahthes✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭boi_anachronism_ wrote: »FantasticFreddie wrote: »Give it an ULTRA hardmode, that is the same but with much higher health, forcing people to run the backyard, and give it triple drops, it's own unique achievement and tie the trifecta to it.
Leave the existing boss fights and achievements as they are, so that groups currently in that content don't get nuked
Give it a mount.
Lol no one can run backyard anymore 😅 ive done it for hm and ff a million times now. Everyone should know it
I find raid leads know how and nobody else LOL. Cuz even non sweaty groups can do a pad 3 for non HM nowadays.0 -
ZOS_HadeostrymodGreetings,
After further review we have decided to move this thread to a category we think is more appropriate for this topic, as it's related to trials.
Thank you for your understanding0 -
boi_anachronism_✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭boi_anachronism_ wrote: »FantasticFreddie wrote: »Give it an ULTRA hardmode, that is the same but with much higher health, forcing people to run the backyard, and give it triple drops, it's own unique achievement and tie the trifecta to it.
Leave the existing boss fights and achievements as they are, so that groups currently in that content don't get nuked
Give it a mount.
Lol no one can run backyard anymore 😅 ive done it for hm and ff a million times now. Everyone should know it
I find raid leads know how and nobody else LOL. Cuz even non sweaty groups can do a pad 3 for non HM nowadays.
Thats the problem0 -
FantasticFreddie✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭boi_anachronism_ wrote: »boi_anachronism_ wrote: »FantasticFreddie wrote: »Give it an ULTRA hardmode, that is the same but with much higher health, forcing people to run the backyard, and give it triple drops, it's own unique achievement and tie the trifecta to it.
Leave the existing boss fights and achievements as they are, so that groups currently in that content don't get nuked
Give it a mount.
Lol no one can run backyard anymore 😅 ive done it for hm and ff a million times now. Everyone should know it
I find raid leads know how and nobody else LOL. Cuz even non sweaty groups can do a pad 3 for non HM nowadays.
Thats the problem
Which could be solved with ultra hardmode and a mount0 -
boi_anachronism_✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭FantasticFreddie wrote: »boi_anachronism_ wrote: »boi_anachronism_ wrote: »FantasticFreddie wrote: »Give it an ULTRA hardmode, that is the same but with much higher health, forcing people to run the backyard, and give it triple drops, it's own unique achievement and tie the trifecta to it.
Leave the existing boss fights and achievements as they are, so that groups currently in that content don't get nuked
Give it a mount.
Lol no one can run backyard anymore 😅 ive done it for hm and ff a million times now. Everyone should know it
I find raid leads know how and nobody else LOL. Cuz even non sweaty groups can do a pad 3 for non HM nowadays.
Thats the problem
Which could be solved with ultra hardmode and a mount
Idk i think it just needs to be brought up to standard with ss or something in terms of vet and hm. You should just have to do mechanics. final boss shouldnt have to hit much harder in hm then he does now for example but he should have enough hp to force a luner phase. First one only needs a small hp buff and twins can stay how they are for reg but they both should get their own hm.Edited by boi_anachronism_ on 24 September 2023 17:150 -
FantasticFreddie✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭boi_anachronism_ wrote: »FantasticFreddie wrote: »boi_anachronism_ wrote: »boi_anachronism_ wrote: »FantasticFreddie wrote: »Give it an ULTRA hardmode, that is the same but with much higher health, forcing people to run the backyard, and give it triple drops, it's own unique achievement and tie the trifecta to it.
Leave the existing boss fights and achievements as they are, so that groups currently in that content don't get nuked
Give it a mount.
Lol no one can run backyard anymore 😅 ive done it for hm and ff a million times now. Everyone should know it
I find raid leads know how and nobody else LOL. Cuz even non sweaty groups can do a pad 3 for non HM nowadays.
Thats the problem
Which could be solved with ultra hardmode and a mount
Idk i think it just needs to be brought up to standard with ss or something in terms of vet and hm. You should just have to do mechanics. final boss shouldnt have to hit much harder in hm then he does now for example but he should have enough hp to force a luner phase. First one only needs a small hp buff and twins can stay how they are for reg but they both should get their own hm.
No. I was bad enough, recently enough, that I know this is a terrible idea. When I was progging (yes, PROGGING) vmol, we always saw lunar phase. Why? Because we were bad!
Don't ruin the progress of all the bad players trying to get better and looking forward to their skin-- just give them something NEW to look forward to.2 -
boi_anachronism_✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭FantasticFreddie wrote: »boi_anachronism_ wrote: »FantasticFreddie wrote: »boi_anachronism_ wrote: »boi_anachronism_ wrote: »FantasticFreddie wrote: »Give it an ULTRA hardmode, that is the same but with much higher health, forcing people to run the backyard, and give it triple drops, it's own unique achievement and tie the trifecta to it.
Leave the existing boss fights and achievements as they are, so that groups currently in that content don't get nuked
Give it a mount.
Lol no one can run backyard anymore 😅 ive done it for hm and ff a million times now. Everyone should know it
I find raid leads know how and nobody else LOL. Cuz even non sweaty groups can do a pad 3 for non HM nowadays.
Thats the problem
Which could be solved with ultra hardmode and a mount
Idk i think it just needs to be brought up to standard with ss or something in terms of vet and hm. You should just have to do mechanics. final boss shouldnt have to hit much harder in hm then he does now for example but he should have enough hp to force a luner phase. First one only needs a small hp buff and twins can stay how they are for reg but they both should get their own hm.
No. I was bad enough, recently enough, that I know this is a terrible idea. When I was progging (yes, PROGGING) vmol, we always saw lunar phase. Why? Because we were bad!
Don't ruin the progress of all the bad players trying to get better and looking forward to their skin-- just give them something NEW to look forward to.
Im sorry? Hm should be HARD. You should have to see all the mechs for a hm. Thats just ridiculous. As i said nothing for twins needs to be changed in reg vet, first boss should only see a small hp buff, last boss should only see a small buff. if you know mechanics thats literally no big deal at all. Im suggesting option hard modes be added for the first two bosses. Im not suggesting you have to go through lunar in regular vet.... I progged it, ive skinned countless people for it, ive raid lead it. Ive spent upwards of 4hrs at a time in there with inexperienced groups. Seriously. I dont know what you are talking about. You will ALWAYS have to run backyard atleast once for final. You will ALWAYS have to go through conversations with the twins. you will ALWAYS have to cleanse on first boss. You should never be progging to get crazy dps to complete a trial so you can skip mechs. You prog mechs. This attitude is one of the biggest issues with raiders these days. Good=high dps. If you are saying "bad" players that dont know mechs are entitled to complete hm then that is a serious problem.Edited by boi_anachronism_ on 24 September 2023 21:570 -
FantasticFreddie✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭boi_anachronism_ wrote: »FantasticFreddie wrote: »boi_anachronism_ wrote: »FantasticFreddie wrote: »boi_anachronism_ wrote: »boi_anachronism_ wrote: »FantasticFreddie wrote: »Give it an ULTRA hardmode, that is the same but with much higher health, forcing people to run the backyard, and give it triple drops, it's own unique achievement and tie the trifecta to it.
Leave the existing boss fights and achievements as they are, so that groups currently in that content don't get nuked
Give it a mount.
Lol no one can run backyard anymore 😅 ive done it for hm and ff a million times now. Everyone should know it
I find raid leads know how and nobody else LOL. Cuz even non sweaty groups can do a pad 3 for non HM nowadays.
Thats the problem
Which could be solved with ultra hardmode and a mount
Idk i think it just needs to be brought up to standard with ss or something in terms of vet and hm. You should just have to do mechanics. final boss shouldnt have to hit much harder in hm then he does now for example but he should have enough hp to force a luner phase. First one only needs a small hp buff and twins can stay how they are for reg but they both should get their own hm.
No. I was bad enough, recently enough, that I know this is a terrible idea. When I was progging (yes, PROGGING) vmol, we always saw lunar phase. Why? Because we were bad!
Don't ruin the progress of all the bad players trying to get better and looking forward to their skin-- just give them something NEW to look forward to.
Im sorry? Hm should be HARD. You should have to see all the mechs for a hm. Thats just ridiculous. As i said nothing for twins needs to be changed in reg vet, first boss should only see a small hp buff, last boss should only see a small buff. if you know mechanics thats literally no big deal at all. Im suggesting option hard modes be added for the first two bosses. Im not suggesting you have to go through lunar in regular vet.... I progged it, ive skinned countless people for it, ive raid lead it. Ive spent upwards of 4hrs at a time in there with inexperienced groups. Seriously. I dont know what you are talking about. You will ALWAYS have to run backyard atleast once for final. You will ALWAYS have to go through conversations with the twins. you will ALWAYS have to cleanse on first boss. You should never be progging to get crazy dps to complete a trial so you can skip mechs. You prog mechs. This attitude is one of the biggest issues with raiders these days. Good=high dps. If you are saying "bad" players that dont know mechs are entitled to complete hm then that is a serious problem.
I said none of that. I said leave vet and regular hardmode alone because there are people who are currently progging MoL on regular, non-hardmode vet difficulty. And THOSE groups do not deserve to suddenly get faced with an increase in difficulty. My first vMoL clear saw lunar phase on VET because our dps was so low. Not hardmode, vet. And it was most certainly NOT intentional. (Did make eventually getting DD easier tho...)
People here forget that not every vet raider is at the very endgame. Some groups are just starting out. Some groups are still learning the mechanics, have low damage, and the older trials SHOULD NOT be made more difficult across the board. They should get updated with OPTIONAL content for the endgame to revisit.2 -
boi_anachronism_✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭FantasticFreddie wrote: »boi_anachronism_ wrote: »FantasticFreddie wrote: »boi_anachronism_ wrote: »FantasticFreddie wrote: »boi_anachronism_ wrote: »boi_anachronism_ wrote: »FantasticFreddie wrote: »Give it an ULTRA hardmode, that is the same but with much higher health, forcing people to run the backyard, and give it triple drops, it's own unique achievement and tie the trifecta to it.
Leave the existing boss fights and achievements as they are, so that groups currently in that content don't get nuked
Give it a mount.
Lol no one can run backyard anymore 😅 ive done it for hm and ff a million times now. Everyone should know it
I find raid leads know how and nobody else LOL. Cuz even non sweaty groups can do a pad 3 for non HM nowadays.
Thats the problem
Which could be solved with ultra hardmode and a mount
Idk i think it just needs to be brought up to standard with ss or something in terms of vet and hm. You should just have to do mechanics. final boss shouldnt have to hit much harder in hm then he does now for example but he should have enough hp to force a luner phase. First one only needs a small hp buff and twins can stay how they are for reg but they both should get their own hm.
No. I was bad enough, recently enough, that I know this is a terrible idea. When I was progging (yes, PROGGING) vmol, we always saw lunar phase. Why? Because we were bad!
Don't ruin the progress of all the bad players trying to get better and looking forward to their skin-- just give them something NEW to look forward to.
Im sorry? Hm should be HARD. You should have to see all the mechs for a hm. Thats just ridiculous. As i said nothing for twins needs to be changed in reg vet, first boss should only see a small hp buff, last boss should only see a small buff. if you know mechanics thats literally no big deal at all. Im suggesting option hard modes be added for the first two bosses. Im not suggesting you have to go through lunar in regular vet.... I progged it, ive skinned countless people for it, ive raid lead it. Ive spent upwards of 4hrs at a time in there with inexperienced groups. Seriously. I dont know what you are talking about. You will ALWAYS have to run backyard atleast once for final. You will ALWAYS have to go through conversations with the twins. you will ALWAYS have to cleanse on first boss. You should never be progging to get crazy dps to complete a trial so you can skip mechs. You prog mechs. This attitude is one of the biggest issues with raiders these days. Good=high dps. If you are saying "bad" players that dont know mechs are entitled to complete hm then that is a serious problem.
I said none of that. I said leave vet and regular hardmode alone because there are people who are currently progging MoL on regular, non-hardmode vet difficulty. And THOSE groups do not deserve to suddenly get faced with an increase in difficulty. My first vMoL clear saw lunar phase on VET because our dps was so low. Not hardmode, vet. And it was most certainly NOT intentional. (Did make eventually getting DD easier tho...)
People here forget that not every vet raider is at the very endgame. Some groups are just starting out. Some groups are still learning the mechanics, have low damage, and the older trials SHOULD NOT be made more difficult across the board. They should get updated with OPTIONAL content for the endgame to revisit.
Regular hardmode? Hard mode is hard mode. It should be hard. Period. You dont seem to understand my scope of experience with this. I JUST ran a multi *month* prog to get some of the greenest people ive ever run with from first clear to dd.
When mol was made the dps top end was literally 40k. With the existance of heavy sorcs even the newest newbies can hit that 60k+. Ss can be done with a dps of about 55k if you know it. I stand behind what ive said 100%. If we are talking about bad players what we are really saying is those without even the most basic idea of how to build a toon because a heavy build is stupidly easy to put together. Mol should never and i do mean never be cleared by a group like that. A heavy build crew can 4 pad burn final. It was literally designed with newer players in mind.
If you cant build a toon that would even make it in a vet dungeon let alone a vet raid you shouldnt be clearing a vet dlc raid. Period. No matter how many times i get blown up by progs at twins i will stand by that.
You SHOULD have to prog vet. You think i forgot that lol. My very first clear was 3 hrs. You are literally argueing that people who cant do a crag should be able to clear mol. Its bonkers. If you know the mechanics a couple mil wont hinder your progress. This isnt me asking it to be brought up to scale with vdsr. Want to take a guess at how long my first clear for that was. 12hrs. 12. So please dont sit there telling me how bad groups shouldn't have to learn mechs. Im GLAD you guys saw lunar phase. Its a good thing and it was the intention of it and you should be proud that your group was able to do that. Most don't and if they do get there have no idea how to deal with it. Whats the point of designing those mechs if no one sees them. Like saying no one should have to worry about portals or ice cages in ss.
Hard mode for vet mol isnt even considered hm anymore. Thats sad. Helra hm is actually harder for groups now. A regular vdsr is 5x as hard as a vmol hm. That should never be the case. Clearing a vet trial, even a hm is not considered endgame whith the exception of cloudrest. Endgame is trifactas. And no one is telling you you have to do that. Honestly.
This isnt for end game to revisit. Trifecta sure but average raiders dont do this anymore because its too easy. Crag is for newbies. Dlc is average. Hm is for hardcore. Trifecta is for end game.
I constantly see newer players say that vets shouldn't be able to skip mechs because of dps because that makes dps the be all and end all not the mechs and unfair to them and yet here we are arguing that thats perfectly fine because players who havent the foggiest what they are doing wont be able to clear it... You cant have it both ways.Edited by boi_anachronism_ on 25 September 2023 12:440 -
sarahthes✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭boi_anachronism_ wrote: »FantasticFreddie wrote: »boi_anachronism_ wrote: »FantasticFreddie wrote: »boi_anachronism_ wrote: »FantasticFreddie wrote: »boi_anachronism_ wrote: »boi_anachronism_ wrote: »FantasticFreddie wrote: »Give it an ULTRA hardmode, that is the same but with much higher health, forcing people to run the backyard, and give it triple drops, it's own unique achievement and tie the trifecta to it.
Leave the existing boss fights and achievements as they are, so that groups currently in that content don't get nuked
Give it a mount.
Lol no one can run backyard anymore 😅 ive done it for hm and ff a million times now. Everyone should know it
I find raid leads know how and nobody else LOL. Cuz even non sweaty groups can do a pad 3 for non HM nowadays.
Thats the problem
Which could be solved with ultra hardmode and a mount
Idk i think it just needs to be brought up to standard with ss or something in terms of vet and hm. You should just have to do mechanics. final boss shouldnt have to hit much harder in hm then he does now for example but he should have enough hp to force a luner phase. First one only needs a small hp buff and twins can stay how they are for reg but they both should get their own hm.
No. I was bad enough, recently enough, that I know this is a terrible idea. When I was progging (yes, PROGGING) vmol, we always saw lunar phase. Why? Because we were bad!
Don't ruin the progress of all the bad players trying to get better and looking forward to their skin-- just give them something NEW to look forward to.
Im sorry? Hm should be HARD. You should have to see all the mechs for a hm. Thats just ridiculous. As i said nothing for twins needs to be changed in reg vet, first boss should only see a small hp buff, last boss should only see a small buff. if you know mechanics thats literally no big deal at all. Im suggesting option hard modes be added for the first two bosses. Im not suggesting you have to go through lunar in regular vet.... I progged it, ive skinned countless people for it, ive raid lead it. Ive spent upwards of 4hrs at a time in there with inexperienced groups. Seriously. I dont know what you are talking about. You will ALWAYS have to run backyard atleast once for final. You will ALWAYS have to go through conversations with the twins. you will ALWAYS have to cleanse on first boss. You should never be progging to get crazy dps to complete a trial so you can skip mechs. You prog mechs. This attitude is one of the biggest issues with raiders these days. Good=high dps. If you are saying "bad" players that dont know mechs are entitled to complete hm then that is a serious problem.
I said none of that. I said leave vet and regular hardmode alone because there are people who are currently progging MoL on regular, non-hardmode vet difficulty. And THOSE groups do not deserve to suddenly get faced with an increase in difficulty. My first vMoL clear saw lunar phase on VET because our dps was so low. Not hardmode, vet. And it was most certainly NOT intentional. (Did make eventually getting DD easier tho...)
People here forget that not every vet raider is at the very endgame. Some groups are just starting out. Some groups are still learning the mechanics, have low damage, and the older trials SHOULD NOT be made more difficult across the board. They should get updated with OPTIONAL content for the endgame to revisit.
Regular hardmode? Hard mode is hard mode. It should be hard. Period. You dont seem to understand my scope of experience with this. I JUST ran a multi *month* prog to get some of the greenest people ive ever run with from first clear to dd.
When mol was made the dps top end was literally 40k. With the existance of heavy sorcs even the newest newbies can hit that 60k+. Ss can be done with a dps of about 55k if you know it. I stand behind what ive said 100%. If we are talking about bad players what we are really saying is those without even the most basic idea of how to build a toon because a heavy build is stupidly easy to put together. Mol should never and i do mean never be cleared by a group like that. A heavy build crew can 4 pad burn final. It was literally designed with newer players in mind.
If you cant build a toon that would even make it in a vet dungeon let alone a vet raid you shouldnt be clearing a vet dlc raid. Period. No matter how many times i get blown up by progs at twins i will stand by that.
You SHOULD have to prog vet. You think i forgot that lol. My very first clear was 3 hrs. You are literally argueing that people who cant do a crag should be able to clear mol. Its bonkers. If you know the mechanics a couple mil wont hinder your progress. This isnt me asking it to be brought up to scale with vdsr. Want to take a guess at how long my first clear for that was. 12hrs. 12. So please dont sit there telling me how bad groups shouldn't have to learn mechs. Im GLAD you guys saw lunar phase. Its a good thing and it was the intention of it and you should be proud that your group was able to do that. Most don't and if they do get there have no idea how to deal with it. Whats the point of designing those mechs if no one sees them. Like saying no one should have to worry about portals or ice cages in ss.
Hard mode for vet mol isnt even considered hm anymore. Thats sad. Helra hm is actually harder for groups now. A regular vdsr is 5x as hard as a vmol hm. That should never be the case. Clearing a vet trial, even a hm is not considered endgame whith the exception of cloudrest. Endgame is trifactas. And no one is telling you you have to do that. Honestly.
This isnt for end game to revisit. Trifecta sure but average raiders dont do this anymore because its too easy. Crag is for newbies. Dlc is average. Hm is for hardcore. Trifecta is for end game.
I constantly see newer players say that vets shouldn't be able to skip mechs because of dps because that makes dps the be all and end all not the mechs and unfair to them and yet here we are arguing that thats perfectly fine because players who havent the foggiest what they are doing wont be able to clear it... You cant have it both ways.
vMoL is old, and one of the first trials people tackle.
It should be easier than the trials that come after it.
Personally, I enjoy being able to skip mechs in vMoL. It feels kinda good, like a sign of how far I've come.
But more importantly, I think making it harder would be detrimental to the raiding community because it raises the bar for entry too high. And that's the last thing we need right now.
Newer players still have to learn the mechs if they want the DD title, and I think that's enough. Also most brand new raiders even if they have mega juicy damage will see one twins cycle and 1-2 cleanse cycles on Zhajassa.1 -
boi_anachronism_✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭boi_anachronism_ wrote: »FantasticFreddie wrote: »boi_anachronism_ wrote: »FantasticFreddie wrote: »boi_anachronism_ wrote: »FantasticFreddie wrote: »boi_anachronism_ wrote: »boi_anachronism_ wrote: »FantasticFreddie wrote: »Give it an ULTRA hardmode, that is the same but with much higher health, forcing people to run the backyard, and give it triple drops, it's own unique achievement and tie the trifecta to it.
Leave the existing boss fights and achievements as they are, so that groups currently in that content don't get nuked
Give it a mount.
Lol no one can run backyard anymore 😅 ive done it for hm and ff a million times now. Everyone should know it
I find raid leads know how and nobody else LOL. Cuz even non sweaty groups can do a pad 3 for non HM nowadays.
Thats the problem
Which could be solved with ultra hardmode and a mount
Idk i think it just needs to be brought up to standard with ss or something in terms of vet and hm. You should just have to do mechanics. final boss shouldnt have to hit much harder in hm then he does now for example but he should have enough hp to force a luner phase. First one only needs a small hp buff and twins can stay how they are for reg but they both should get their own hm.
No. I was bad enough, recently enough, that I know this is a terrible idea. When I was progging (yes, PROGGING) vmol, we always saw lunar phase. Why? Because we were bad!
Don't ruin the progress of all the bad players trying to get better and looking forward to their skin-- just give them something NEW to look forward to.
Im sorry? Hm should be HARD. You should have to see all the mechs for a hm. Thats just ridiculous. As i said nothing for twins needs to be changed in reg vet, first boss should only see a small hp buff, last boss should only see a small buff. if you know mechanics thats literally no big deal at all. Im suggesting option hard modes be added for the first two bosses. Im not suggesting you have to go through lunar in regular vet.... I progged it, ive skinned countless people for it, ive raid lead it. Ive spent upwards of 4hrs at a time in there with inexperienced groups. Seriously. I dont know what you are talking about. You will ALWAYS have to run backyard atleast once for final. You will ALWAYS have to go through conversations with the twins. you will ALWAYS have to cleanse on first boss. You should never be progging to get crazy dps to complete a trial so you can skip mechs. You prog mechs. This attitude is one of the biggest issues with raiders these days. Good=high dps. If you are saying "bad" players that dont know mechs are entitled to complete hm then that is a serious problem.
I said none of that. I said leave vet and regular hardmode alone because there are people who are currently progging MoL on regular, non-hardmode vet difficulty. And THOSE groups do not deserve to suddenly get faced with an increase in difficulty. My first vMoL clear saw lunar phase on VET because our dps was so low. Not hardmode, vet. And it was most certainly NOT intentional. (Did make eventually getting DD easier tho...)
People here forget that not every vet raider is at the very endgame. Some groups are just starting out. Some groups are still learning the mechanics, have low damage, and the older trials SHOULD NOT be made more difficult across the board. They should get updated with OPTIONAL content for the endgame to revisit.
Regular hardmode? Hard mode is hard mode. It should be hard. Period. You dont seem to understand my scope of experience with this. I JUST ran a multi *month* prog to get some of the greenest people ive ever run with from first clear to dd.
When mol was made the dps top end was literally 40k. With the existance of heavy sorcs even the newest newbies can hit that 60k+. Ss can be done with a dps of about 55k if you know it. I stand behind what ive said 100%. If we are talking about bad players what we are really saying is those without even the most basic idea of how to build a toon because a heavy build is stupidly easy to put together. Mol should never and i do mean never be cleared by a group like that. A heavy build crew can 4 pad burn final. It was literally designed with newer players in mind.
If you cant build a toon that would even make it in a vet dungeon let alone a vet raid you shouldnt be clearing a vet dlc raid. Period. No matter how many times i get blown up by progs at twins i will stand by that.
You SHOULD have to prog vet. You think i forgot that lol. My very first clear was 3 hrs. You are literally argueing that people who cant do a crag should be able to clear mol. Its bonkers. If you know the mechanics a couple mil wont hinder your progress. This isnt me asking it to be brought up to scale with vdsr. Want to take a guess at how long my first clear for that was. 12hrs. 12. So please dont sit there telling me how bad groups shouldn't have to learn mechs. Im GLAD you guys saw lunar phase. Its a good thing and it was the intention of it and you should be proud that your group was able to do that. Most don't and if they do get there have no idea how to deal with it. Whats the point of designing those mechs if no one sees them. Like saying no one should have to worry about portals or ice cages in ss.
Hard mode for vet mol isnt even considered hm anymore. Thats sad. Helra hm is actually harder for groups now. A regular vdsr is 5x as hard as a vmol hm. That should never be the case. Clearing a vet trial, even a hm is not considered endgame whith the exception of cloudrest. Endgame is trifactas. And no one is telling you you have to do that. Honestly.
This isnt for end game to revisit. Trifecta sure but average raiders dont do this anymore because its too easy. Crag is for newbies. Dlc is average. Hm is for hardcore. Trifecta is for end game.
I constantly see newer players say that vets shouldn't be able to skip mechs because of dps because that makes dps the be all and end all not the mechs and unfair to them and yet here we are arguing that thats perfectly fine because players who havent the foggiest what they are doing wont be able to clear it... You cant have it both ways.
vMoL is old, and one of the first trials people tackle.
It should be easier than the trials that come after it.
Personally, I enjoy being able to skip mechs in vMoL. It feels kinda good, like a sign of how far I've come.
But more importantly, I think making it harder would be detrimental to the raiding community because it raises the bar for entry too high. And that's the last thing we need right now.
Newer players still have to learn the mechs if they want the DD title, and I think that's enough. Also most brand new raiders even if they have mega juicy damage will see one twins cycle and 1-2 cleanse cycles on Zhajassa.
I highly disagree. As i previously meantioned vhrc hm is harder for groups to tackle then vmol hm. That was never the intention. When mol was released it was capital h Hard. The dps back then made it so you couldnt skip mechanics. Do you understand that few raid groups even go for DD anymore? That you get nothing for a no death? Which by the way is the only actually difficult achievement in there which is why most groups just skip it. That is specifically why one of my leads teaches it. It has some of the best and most unique mechanics in the entire game and most people never even see it. Skipping mechs doesnt mean you have come far. It means you will be ill prepared for the mandatory mechanics and organization of the following trials. Ive seen it over and over from even more experienced players. They dont know how to move as a group, how to organize where they stand, dont know add priorities, dont know how to deal with multiple mechanics, they dont know how to deal with more complex portal mechanics.. there are no dps checks in mol beyond the soft check at the first boss, in later trials there very much is.. and then they get into vet cloudrest and feel like they were hit with a brick. Mol is the absolute perfect place to learn these things but bc people can skip 85 percent of it they never learn. Im not suggesting it be "as hard" as later trials, im suggesting that the dps shouldnt prevent you from learning the mechs well and it very much is. Ialso dont see why hard mode being up to par affects new raiders. They should not be doing hard modes anyway. They arent designed for newbies, they are designed for experienced players with an excellent grasp of mechanics.Edited by boi_anachronism_ on 25 September 2023 16:311 -
boi_anachronism_✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭boi_anachronism_ wrote: »FantasticFreddie wrote: »boi_anachronism_ wrote: »FantasticFreddie wrote: »boi_anachronism_ wrote: »FantasticFreddie wrote: »boi_anachronism_ wrote: »boi_anachronism_ wrote: »FantasticFreddie wrote: »Give it an ULTRA hardmode, that is the same but with much higher health, forcing people to run the backyard, and give it triple drops, it's own unique achievement and tie the trifecta to it.
Leave the existing boss fights and achievements as they are, so that groups currently in that content don't get nuked
Give it a mount.
Lol no one can run backyard anymore 😅 ive done it for hm and ff a million times now. Everyone should know it
I find raid leads know how and nobody else LOL. Cuz even non sweaty groups can do a pad 3 for non HM nowadays.
Thats the problem
Which could be solved with ultra hardmode and a mount
Idk i think it just needs to be brought up to standard with ss or something in terms of vet and hm. You should just have to do mechanics. final boss shouldnt have to hit much harder in hm then he does now for example but he should have enough hp to force a luner phase. First one only needs a small hp buff and twins can stay how they are for reg but they both should get their own hm.
No. I was bad enough, recently enough, that I know this is a terrible idea. When I was progging (yes, PROGGING) vmol, we always saw lunar phase. Why? Because we were bad!
Don't ruin the progress of all the bad players trying to get better and looking forward to their skin-- just give them something NEW to look forward to.
Im sorry? Hm should be HARD. You should have to see all the mechs for a hm. Thats just ridiculous. As i said nothing for twins needs to be changed in reg vet, first boss should only see a small hp buff, last boss should only see a small buff. if you know mechanics thats literally no big deal at all. Im suggesting option hard modes be added for the first two bosses. Im not suggesting you have to go through lunar in regular vet.... I progged it, ive skinned countless people for it, ive raid lead it. Ive spent upwards of 4hrs at a time in there with inexperienced groups. Seriously. I dont know what you are talking about. You will ALWAYS have to run backyard atleast once for final. You will ALWAYS have to go through conversations with the twins. you will ALWAYS have to cleanse on first boss. You should never be progging to get crazy dps to complete a trial so you can skip mechs. You prog mechs. This attitude is one of the biggest issues with raiders these days. Good=high dps. If you are saying "bad" players that dont know mechs are entitled to complete hm then that is a serious problem.
I said none of that. I said leave vet and regular hardmode alone because there are people who are currently progging MoL on regular, non-hardmode vet difficulty. And THOSE groups do not deserve to suddenly get faced with an increase in difficulty. My first vMoL clear saw lunar phase on VET because our dps was so low. Not hardmode, vet. And it was most certainly NOT intentional. (Did make eventually getting DD easier tho...)
People here forget that not every vet raider is at the very endgame. Some groups are just starting out. Some groups are still learning the mechanics, have low damage, and the older trials SHOULD NOT be made more difficult across the board. They should get updated with OPTIONAL content for the endgame to revisit.
Regular hardmode? Hard mode is hard mode. It should be hard. Period. You dont seem to understand my scope of experience with this. I JUST ran a multi *month* prog to get some of the greenest people ive ever run with from first clear to dd.
When mol was made the dps top end was literally 40k. With the existance of heavy sorcs even the newest newbies can hit that 60k+. Ss can be done with a dps of about 55k if you know it. I stand behind what ive said 100%. If we are talking about bad players what we are really saying is those without even the most basic idea of how to build a toon because a heavy build is stupidly easy to put together. Mol should never and i do mean never be cleared by a group like that. A heavy build crew can 4 pad burn final. It was literally designed with newer players in mind.
If you cant build a toon that would even make it in a vet dungeon let alone a vet raid you shouldnt be clearing a vet dlc raid. Period. No matter how many times i get blown up by progs at twins i will stand by that.
You SHOULD have to prog vet. You think i forgot that lol. My very first clear was 3 hrs. You are literally argueing that people who cant do a crag should be able to clear mol. Its bonkers. If you know the mechanics a couple mil wont hinder your progress. This isnt me asking it to be brought up to scale with vdsr. Want to take a guess at how long my first clear for that was. 12hrs. 12. So please dont sit there telling me how bad groups shouldn't have to learn mechs. Im GLAD you guys saw lunar phase. Its a good thing and it was the intention of it and you should be proud that your group was able to do that. Most don't and if they do get there have no idea how to deal with it. Whats the point of designing those mechs if no one sees them. Like saying no one should have to worry about portals or ice cages in ss.
Hard mode for vet mol isnt even considered hm anymore. Thats sad. Helra hm is actually harder for groups now. A regular vdsr is 5x as hard as a vmol hm. That should never be the case. Clearing a vet trial, even a hm is not considered endgame whith the exception of cloudrest. Endgame is trifactas. And no one is telling you you have to do that. Honestly.
This isnt for end game to revisit. Trifecta sure but average raiders dont do this anymore because its too easy. Crag is for newbies. Dlc is average. Hm is for hardcore. Trifecta is for end game.
I constantly see newer players say that vets shouldn't be able to skip mechs because of dps because that makes dps the be all and end all not the mechs and unfair to them and yet here we are arguing that thats perfectly fine because players who havent the foggiest what they are doing wont be able to clear it... You cant have it both ways.
vMoL is old, and one of the first trials people tackle.
It should be easier than the trials that come after it.
Personally, I enjoy being able to skip mechs in vMoL. It feels kinda good, like a sign of how far I've come.
But more importantly, I think making it harder would be detrimental to the raiding community because it raises the bar for entry too high. And that's the last thing we need right now.
Newer players still have to learn the mechs if they want the DD title, and I think that's enough. Also most brand new raiders even if they have mega juicy damage will see one twins cycle and 1-2 cleanse cycles on Zhajassa.
I really just find this sentiment pretty unbelievable considering that i constantly hear new players complain about how vets can just "burn mechanics" and they shouldn't be able to and to put hards stops in place but when newer folks find they are able to in some content suddenly they are gung-**** and get really defensive when its suggested that no one should be able to do that by a vet player. Good lord 😑Edited by boi_anachronism_ on 25 September 2023 19:171 -
sarahthes✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭boi_anachronism_ wrote: »boi_anachronism_ wrote: »FantasticFreddie wrote: »boi_anachronism_ wrote: »FantasticFreddie wrote: »boi_anachronism_ wrote: »FantasticFreddie wrote: »boi_anachronism_ wrote: »boi_anachronism_ wrote: »FantasticFreddie wrote: »Give it an ULTRA hardmode, that is the same but with much higher health, forcing people to run the backyard, and give it triple drops, it's own unique achievement and tie the trifecta to it.
Leave the existing boss fights and achievements as they are, so that groups currently in that content don't get nuked
Give it a mount.
Lol no one can run backyard anymore 😅 ive done it for hm and ff a million times now. Everyone should know it
I find raid leads know how and nobody else LOL. Cuz even non sweaty groups can do a pad 3 for non HM nowadays.
Thats the problem
Which could be solved with ultra hardmode and a mount
Idk i think it just needs to be brought up to standard with ss or something in terms of vet and hm. You should just have to do mechanics. final boss shouldnt have to hit much harder in hm then he does now for example but he should have enough hp to force a luner phase. First one only needs a small hp buff and twins can stay how they are for reg but they both should get their own hm.
No. I was bad enough, recently enough, that I know this is a terrible idea. When I was progging (yes, PROGGING) vmol, we always saw lunar phase. Why? Because we were bad!
Don't ruin the progress of all the bad players trying to get better and looking forward to their skin-- just give them something NEW to look forward to.
Im sorry? Hm should be HARD. You should have to see all the mechs for a hm. Thats just ridiculous. As i said nothing for twins needs to be changed in reg vet, first boss should only see a small hp buff, last boss should only see a small buff. if you know mechanics thats literally no big deal at all. Im suggesting option hard modes be added for the first two bosses. Im not suggesting you have to go through lunar in regular vet.... I progged it, ive skinned countless people for it, ive raid lead it. Ive spent upwards of 4hrs at a time in there with inexperienced groups. Seriously. I dont know what you are talking about. You will ALWAYS have to run backyard atleast once for final. You will ALWAYS have to go through conversations with the twins. you will ALWAYS have to cleanse on first boss. You should never be progging to get crazy dps to complete a trial so you can skip mechs. You prog mechs. This attitude is one of the biggest issues with raiders these days. Good=high dps. If you are saying "bad" players that dont know mechs are entitled to complete hm then that is a serious problem.
I said none of that. I said leave vet and regular hardmode alone because there are people who are currently progging MoL on regular, non-hardmode vet difficulty. And THOSE groups do not deserve to suddenly get faced with an increase in difficulty. My first vMoL clear saw lunar phase on VET because our dps was so low. Not hardmode, vet. And it was most certainly NOT intentional. (Did make eventually getting DD easier tho...)
People here forget that not every vet raider is at the very endgame. Some groups are just starting out. Some groups are still learning the mechanics, have low damage, and the older trials SHOULD NOT be made more difficult across the board. They should get updated with OPTIONAL content for the endgame to revisit.
Regular hardmode? Hard mode is hard mode. It should be hard. Period. You dont seem to understand my scope of experience with this. I JUST ran a multi *month* prog to get some of the greenest people ive ever run with from first clear to dd.
When mol was made the dps top end was literally 40k. With the existance of heavy sorcs even the newest newbies can hit that 60k+. Ss can be done with a dps of about 55k if you know it. I stand behind what ive said 100%. If we are talking about bad players what we are really saying is those without even the most basic idea of how to build a toon because a heavy build is stupidly easy to put together. Mol should never and i do mean never be cleared by a group like that. A heavy build crew can 4 pad burn final. It was literally designed with newer players in mind.
If you cant build a toon that would even make it in a vet dungeon let alone a vet raid you shouldnt be clearing a vet dlc raid. Period. No matter how many times i get blown up by progs at twins i will stand by that.
You SHOULD have to prog vet. You think i forgot that lol. My very first clear was 3 hrs. You are literally argueing that people who cant do a crag should be able to clear mol. Its bonkers. If you know the mechanics a couple mil wont hinder your progress. This isnt me asking it to be brought up to scale with vdsr. Want to take a guess at how long my first clear for that was. 12hrs. 12. So please dont sit there telling me how bad groups shouldn't have to learn mechs. Im GLAD you guys saw lunar phase. Its a good thing and it was the intention of it and you should be proud that your group was able to do that. Most don't and if they do get there have no idea how to deal with it. Whats the point of designing those mechs if no one sees them. Like saying no one should have to worry about portals or ice cages in ss.
Hard mode for vet mol isnt even considered hm anymore. Thats sad. Helra hm is actually harder for groups now. A regular vdsr is 5x as hard as a vmol hm. That should never be the case. Clearing a vet trial, even a hm is not considered endgame whith the exception of cloudrest. Endgame is trifactas. And no one is telling you you have to do that. Honestly.
This isnt for end game to revisit. Trifecta sure but average raiders dont do this anymore because its too easy. Crag is for newbies. Dlc is average. Hm is for hardcore. Trifecta is for end game.
I constantly see newer players say that vets shouldn't be able to skip mechs because of dps because that makes dps the be all and end all not the mechs and unfair to them and yet here we are arguing that thats perfectly fine because players who havent the foggiest what they are doing wont be able to clear it... You cant have it both ways.
vMoL is old, and one of the first trials people tackle.
It should be easier than the trials that come after it.
Personally, I enjoy being able to skip mechs in vMoL. It feels kinda good, like a sign of how far I've come.
But more importantly, I think making it harder would be detrimental to the raiding community because it raises the bar for entry too high. And that's the last thing we need right now.
Newer players still have to learn the mechs if they want the DD title, and I think that's enough. Also most brand new raiders even if they have mega juicy damage will see one twins cycle and 1-2 cleanse cycles on Zhajassa.
I really just find this sentiment pretty unbelievable considering that i constantly hear new players complain about how vets can just "burn mechanics" and they shouldn't be able to and to put hards stops in place but when newer folks find they are able to in some content suddenly they are gung-**** and get really defensive when its suggested that no one should be able to do that by a vet player. Good lord 😑
LOL I'm not a new player, nor am I what most would consider a "casual". I just think it's natural for old content to well, feel old. That's the way it should be. I definitely did my time progging vMoL back in the day when I was new to raiding, I've helped 7 or 8 different groups get DD over the years, from every role except tank.
If we want to increase the challenge, offer a harder version separately, as has been suggested earlier in this very thread.0 -
boi_anachronism_✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭boi_anachronism_ wrote: »boi_anachronism_ wrote: »FantasticFreddie wrote: »boi_anachronism_ wrote: »FantasticFreddie wrote: »boi_anachronism_ wrote: »FantasticFreddie wrote: »boi_anachronism_ wrote: »boi_anachronism_ wrote: »FantasticFreddie wrote: »Give it an ULTRA hardmode, that is the same but with much higher health, forcing people to run the backyard, and give it triple drops, it's own unique achievement and tie the trifecta to it.
Leave the existing boss fights and achievements as they are, so that groups currently in that content don't get nuked
Give it a mount.
Lol no one can run backyard anymore 😅 ive done it for hm and ff a million times now. Everyone should know it
I find raid leads know how and nobody else LOL. Cuz even non sweaty groups can do a pad 3 for non HM nowadays.
Thats the problem
Which could be solved with ultra hardmode and a mount
Idk i think it just needs to be brought up to standard with ss or something in terms of vet and hm. You should just have to do mechanics. final boss shouldnt have to hit much harder in hm then he does now for example but he should have enough hp to force a luner phase. First one only needs a small hp buff and twins can stay how they are for reg but they both should get their own hm.
No. I was bad enough, recently enough, that I know this is a terrible idea. When I was progging (yes, PROGGING) vmol, we always saw lunar phase. Why? Because we were bad!
Don't ruin the progress of all the bad players trying to get better and looking forward to their skin-- just give them something NEW to look forward to.
Im sorry? Hm should be HARD. You should have to see all the mechs for a hm. Thats just ridiculous. As i said nothing for twins needs to be changed in reg vet, first boss should only see a small hp buff, last boss should only see a small buff. if you know mechanics thats literally no big deal at all. Im suggesting option hard modes be added for the first two bosses. Im not suggesting you have to go through lunar in regular vet.... I progged it, ive skinned countless people for it, ive raid lead it. Ive spent upwards of 4hrs at a time in there with inexperienced groups. Seriously. I dont know what you are talking about. You will ALWAYS have to run backyard atleast once for final. You will ALWAYS have to go through conversations with the twins. you will ALWAYS have to cleanse on first boss. You should never be progging to get crazy dps to complete a trial so you can skip mechs. You prog mechs. This attitude is one of the biggest issues with raiders these days. Good=high dps. If you are saying "bad" players that dont know mechs are entitled to complete hm then that is a serious problem.
I said none of that. I said leave vet and regular hardmode alone because there are people who are currently progging MoL on regular, non-hardmode vet difficulty. And THOSE groups do not deserve to suddenly get faced with an increase in difficulty. My first vMoL clear saw lunar phase on VET because our dps was so low. Not hardmode, vet. And it was most certainly NOT intentional. (Did make eventually getting DD easier tho...)
People here forget that not every vet raider is at the very endgame. Some groups are just starting out. Some groups are still learning the mechanics, have low damage, and the older trials SHOULD NOT be made more difficult across the board. They should get updated with OPTIONAL content for the endgame to revisit.
Regular hardmode? Hard mode is hard mode. It should be hard. Period. You dont seem to understand my scope of experience with this. I JUST ran a multi *month* prog to get some of the greenest people ive ever run with from first clear to dd.
When mol was made the dps top end was literally 40k. With the existance of heavy sorcs even the newest newbies can hit that 60k+. Ss can be done with a dps of about 55k if you know it. I stand behind what ive said 100%. If we are talking about bad players what we are really saying is those without even the most basic idea of how to build a toon because a heavy build is stupidly easy to put together. Mol should never and i do mean never be cleared by a group like that. A heavy build crew can 4 pad burn final. It was literally designed with newer players in mind.
If you cant build a toon that would even make it in a vet dungeon let alone a vet raid you shouldnt be clearing a vet dlc raid. Period. No matter how many times i get blown up by progs at twins i will stand by that.
You SHOULD have to prog vet. You think i forgot that lol. My very first clear was 3 hrs. You are literally argueing that people who cant do a crag should be able to clear mol. Its bonkers. If you know the mechanics a couple mil wont hinder your progress. This isnt me asking it to be brought up to scale with vdsr. Want to take a guess at how long my first clear for that was. 12hrs. 12. So please dont sit there telling me how bad groups shouldn't have to learn mechs. Im GLAD you guys saw lunar phase. Its a good thing and it was the intention of it and you should be proud that your group was able to do that. Most don't and if they do get there have no idea how to deal with it. Whats the point of designing those mechs if no one sees them. Like saying no one should have to worry about portals or ice cages in ss.
Hard mode for vet mol isnt even considered hm anymore. Thats sad. Helra hm is actually harder for groups now. A regular vdsr is 5x as hard as a vmol hm. That should never be the case. Clearing a vet trial, even a hm is not considered endgame whith the exception of cloudrest. Endgame is trifactas. And no one is telling you you have to do that. Honestly.
This isnt for end game to revisit. Trifecta sure but average raiders dont do this anymore because its too easy. Crag is for newbies. Dlc is average. Hm is for hardcore. Trifecta is for end game.
I constantly see newer players say that vets shouldn't be able to skip mechs because of dps because that makes dps the be all and end all not the mechs and unfair to them and yet here we are arguing that thats perfectly fine because players who havent the foggiest what they are doing wont be able to clear it... You cant have it both ways.
vMoL is old, and one of the first trials people tackle.
It should be easier than the trials that come after it.
Personally, I enjoy being able to skip mechs in vMoL. It feels kinda good, like a sign of how far I've come.
But more importantly, I think making it harder would be detrimental to the raiding community because it raises the bar for entry too high. And that's the last thing we need right now.
Newer players still have to learn the mechs if they want the DD title, and I think that's enough. Also most brand new raiders even if they have mega juicy damage will see one twins cycle and 1-2 cleanse cycles on Zhajassa.
I really just find this sentiment pretty unbelievable considering that i constantly hear new players complain about how vets can just "burn mechanics" and they shouldn't be able to and to put hards stops in place but when newer folks find they are able to in some content suddenly they are gung-**** and get really defensive when its suggested that no one should be able to do that by a vet player. Good lord 😑
LOL I'm not a new player, nor am I what most would consider a "casual". I just think it's natural for old content to well, feel old. That's the way it should be. I definitely did my time progging vMoL back in the day when I was new to raiding, I've helped 7 or 8 different groups get DD over the years, from every role except tank.
If we want to increase the challenge, offer a harder version separately, as has been suggested earlier in this very thread.
New. Players. Have. No. Place. Doing. Hm.
I dont understand how this is complicated. No hm should be a gimme in a dlc. Hm isnt supposed to be for newbies. Damn. Other trials have been adjusted in the past this isnt a new thing but no extra hard mode has or will be added.
And as ive said several times now. Groups have a much harder time clearing helra hm then final vmol. I dont think ive ever been in a successful pug of it. Crag trials. The oldest in the game. Mol hm yes, several.
I wasnt suggesting you were new thats just the overwhelming sentiment ive encountered. Especially around u35, remember that? Cause i do.Edited by boi_anachronism_ on 25 September 2023 20:251 -
El_Borracho✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭I think you guys are on the same side of the argument. That you can update old trials with a separate hard HARD mode without changing the trials as they are now. I am totally with @boi_anachronism_ VMOL was the gold standard of trials difficulty for a long time. To the point if someone posted a vMOL pug in Craglorn, most would laugh at it and the poor suckers who joined realized why you don't do vMOL pugs. Now? Its a lot of green ZZZZZZZZZZZZAPPING with sorcs and arcanists. The pillars are no longer a wipe mechanic, the twins can be burned through, and the final boss is not a DPS check.Edited by El_Borracho on 25 September 2023 20:250 -
sarahthes✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭boi_anachronism_ wrote: »I highly disagree. As i previously meantioned vhrc hm is harder for groups to tackle then vmol hm. That was never the intention. When mol was released it was capital h Hard. The dps back then made it so you couldnt skip mechanics. Do you understand that few raid groups even go for DD anymore? That you get nothing for a no death?
I do understand, because I am both one of the PC raid leads who still leads DD runs, and someone who (separately) sells carries for them. I also have all achievements in vMoL.Which by the way is the only actually difficult achievement in there which is why most groups just skip it. That is specifically why one of my leads teaches it. It has some of the best and most unique mechanics in the entire game and most people never even see it. Skipping mechs doesnt mean you have come far. It means you will be ill prepared for the mandatory mechanics and organization of the following trials. Ive seen it over and over from even more experienced players. They dont know how to move as a group, how to organize where they stand, dont know add priorities, dont know how to deal with multiple mechanics, they dont know how to deal with more complex portal mechanics..
Then they have bad raid leads. A good lead will explain as they go, tell them where to stack, etc. Even in a 3 pad vMoL HM, if you don't stand in the right spot and kite the meteors and unstable void out of group, you will wipe the group.there are no dps checks in mol beyond the soft check at the first boss, in later trials there very much is..
Each DD must do approximately 65K+ DPS single target on Rakkhat to do a pad 3 burn (not sure of the exact # after the update 35 or whatever it was boss HP nerf). This is a DPS check, and there are plenty of people who aren't capable of it.and then they get into vet cloudrest and feel like they were hit with a brick. Mol is the absolute perfect place to learn these things but bc people can skip 85 percent of it they never learn.
This only applies if MoL is one of the first trials they do. It often isn't. These days new raiders go for whatever trial they can get rostered in first. Their first trial only has about an 8% chance of being vMoL. So why is it necessary that vMoL needs to be buffed to be hard so they can "learn how to play mechanics" when the reality is they're far more likely to do a later trial first and then circle back to MoL?Im not suggesting it be "as hard" as later trials, im suggesting that the dps shouldnt prevent you from learning the mechs well and it very much is.
DPS allows you to skip mechs in pretty much every trial. Why should MoL be the exception? The only one I can't speak to is DSR HM because I have the least experience there, but I've used high damage to skip portions or the entirety of mechs in literally every other trial (it's really easy, if damage is high enough, to have a boss just not finish summoning adds so you skip some of them entirely in some HMs - Oax, Bahsei, Lokke, Nahvi (statues, portal skips), Cloudrest (0 portal, gal skips), vAS (mini skips), Yandir (gryphon skip).
Sure, the people who invented those strats learned the mechs, but later groups of players have built on that and the newest raiders don't see any of the earlier mechs that had to be played. That's just progression. At some point Sanity's Edge will have that too.Ialso dont see why hard mode being up to par affects new raiders. They should not be doing hard modes anyway. They arent designed for newbies, they are designed for experienced players with an excellent grasp of mechanics.
Honestly, saying new players have no right to be doing hard modes makes you sound elitist. If they have the skill, coordination, and damage, why shouldn't they?
I have raided with a LOT of people over the years, from an 80 year old grandpa to literally the very best players in the world, in casual runs and sweaty runs and everything in between. There are people who've only been playing for a few months who are more than ready for hard modes. There are people who will never be ready.0 -
sarahthes✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭boi_anachronism_ wrote: »boi_anachronism_ wrote: »boi_anachronism_ wrote: »FantasticFreddie wrote: »boi_anachronism_ wrote: »FantasticFreddie wrote: »boi_anachronism_ wrote: »FantasticFreddie wrote: »boi_anachronism_ wrote: »boi_anachronism_ wrote: »FantasticFreddie wrote: »Give it an ULTRA hardmode, that is the same but with much higher health, forcing people to run the backyard, and give it triple drops, it's own unique achievement and tie the trifecta to it.
Leave the existing boss fights and achievements as they are, so that groups currently in that content don't get nuked
Give it a mount.
Lol no one can run backyard anymore 😅 ive done it for hm and ff a million times now. Everyone should know it
I find raid leads know how and nobody else LOL. Cuz even non sweaty groups can do a pad 3 for non HM nowadays.
Thats the problem
Which could be solved with ultra hardmode and a mount
Idk i think it just needs to be brought up to standard with ss or something in terms of vet and hm. You should just have to do mechanics. final boss shouldnt have to hit much harder in hm then he does now for example but he should have enough hp to force a luner phase. First one only needs a small hp buff and twins can stay how they are for reg but they both should get their own hm.
No. I was bad enough, recently enough, that I know this is a terrible idea. When I was progging (yes, PROGGING) vmol, we always saw lunar phase. Why? Because we were bad!
Don't ruin the progress of all the bad players trying to get better and looking forward to their skin-- just give them something NEW to look forward to.
Im sorry? Hm should be HARD. You should have to see all the mechs for a hm. Thats just ridiculous. As i said nothing for twins needs to be changed in reg vet, first boss should only see a small hp buff, last boss should only see a small buff. if you know mechanics thats literally no big deal at all. Im suggesting option hard modes be added for the first two bosses. Im not suggesting you have to go through lunar in regular vet.... I progged it, ive skinned countless people for it, ive raid lead it. Ive spent upwards of 4hrs at a time in there with inexperienced groups. Seriously. I dont know what you are talking about. You will ALWAYS have to run backyard atleast once for final. You will ALWAYS have to go through conversations with the twins. you will ALWAYS have to cleanse on first boss. You should never be progging to get crazy dps to complete a trial so you can skip mechs. You prog mechs. This attitude is one of the biggest issues with raiders these days. Good=high dps. If you are saying "bad" players that dont know mechs are entitled to complete hm then that is a serious problem.
I said none of that. I said leave vet and regular hardmode alone because there are people who are currently progging MoL on regular, non-hardmode vet difficulty. And THOSE groups do not deserve to suddenly get faced with an increase in difficulty. My first vMoL clear saw lunar phase on VET because our dps was so low. Not hardmode, vet. And it was most certainly NOT intentional. (Did make eventually getting DD easier tho...)
People here forget that not every vet raider is at the very endgame. Some groups are just starting out. Some groups are still learning the mechanics, have low damage, and the older trials SHOULD NOT be made more difficult across the board. They should get updated with OPTIONAL content for the endgame to revisit.
Regular hardmode? Hard mode is hard mode. It should be hard. Period. You dont seem to understand my scope of experience with this. I JUST ran a multi *month* prog to get some of the greenest people ive ever run with from first clear to dd.
When mol was made the dps top end was literally 40k. With the existance of heavy sorcs even the newest newbies can hit that 60k+. Ss can be done with a dps of about 55k if you know it. I stand behind what ive said 100%. If we are talking about bad players what we are really saying is those without even the most basic idea of how to build a toon because a heavy build is stupidly easy to put together. Mol should never and i do mean never be cleared by a group like that. A heavy build crew can 4 pad burn final. It was literally designed with newer players in mind.
If you cant build a toon that would even make it in a vet dungeon let alone a vet raid you shouldnt be clearing a vet dlc raid. Period. No matter how many times i get blown up by progs at twins i will stand by that.
You SHOULD have to prog vet. You think i forgot that lol. My very first clear was 3 hrs. You are literally argueing that people who cant do a crag should be able to clear mol. Its bonkers. If you know the mechanics a couple mil wont hinder your progress. This isnt me asking it to be brought up to scale with vdsr. Want to take a guess at how long my first clear for that was. 12hrs. 12. So please dont sit there telling me how bad groups shouldn't have to learn mechs. Im GLAD you guys saw lunar phase. Its a good thing and it was the intention of it and you should be proud that your group was able to do that. Most don't and if they do get there have no idea how to deal with it. Whats the point of designing those mechs if no one sees them. Like saying no one should have to worry about portals or ice cages in ss.
Hard mode for vet mol isnt even considered hm anymore. Thats sad. Helra hm is actually harder for groups now. A regular vdsr is 5x as hard as a vmol hm. That should never be the case. Clearing a vet trial, even a hm is not considered endgame whith the exception of cloudrest. Endgame is trifactas. And no one is telling you you have to do that. Honestly.
This isnt for end game to revisit. Trifecta sure but average raiders dont do this anymore because its too easy. Crag is for newbies. Dlc is average. Hm is for hardcore. Trifecta is for end game.
I constantly see newer players say that vets shouldn't be able to skip mechs because of dps because that makes dps the be all and end all not the mechs and unfair to them and yet here we are arguing that thats perfectly fine because players who havent the foggiest what they are doing wont be able to clear it... You cant have it both ways.
vMoL is old, and one of the first trials people tackle.
It should be easier than the trials that come after it.
Personally, I enjoy being able to skip mechs in vMoL. It feels kinda good, like a sign of how far I've come.
But more importantly, I think making it harder would be detrimental to the raiding community because it raises the bar for entry too high. And that's the last thing we need right now.
Newer players still have to learn the mechs if they want the DD title, and I think that's enough. Also most brand new raiders even if they have mega juicy damage will see one twins cycle and 1-2 cleanse cycles on Zhajassa.
I really just find this sentiment pretty unbelievable considering that i constantly hear new players complain about how vets can just "burn mechanics" and they shouldn't be able to and to put hards stops in place but when newer folks find they are able to in some content suddenly they are gung-**** and get really defensive when its suggested that no one should be able to do that by a vet player. Good lord 😑
LOL I'm not a new player, nor am I what most would consider a "casual". I just think it's natural for old content to well, feel old. That's the way it should be. I definitely did my time progging vMoL back in the day when I was new to raiding, I've helped 7 or 8 different groups get DD over the years, from every role except tank.
If we want to increase the challenge, offer a harder version separately, as has been suggested earlier in this very thread.
New. Players. Have. No. Place. Doing. Hm.
I dont understand how this is complicated. No hm should be a gimme in a dlc. Hm isnt supposed to be for newbies. Damn. Other trials have been adjusted in the past this isnt a new thing but no extra hard mode has or will be added.
And as ive said several times now. Groups have a much harder time clearing helra hm then final vmol. I dont think ive ever been in a successful pug of it. Crag trials. The oldest in the game. Mol hm yes, several.
I wasnt suggesting you were new thats just the overwhelming sentiment ive encountered. Especially around u35, remember that? Cause i do.
I have led many successful pug vHRC HMs. I also lead 1 hour "cores" in there quite often, in every role except off tank (because it's hard to raid lead when kiting statues, need to be able to see).
I quit for about a year starting at U34 actually, I reached my fed up point a bit earlier than everyone else. I came back just before Necrom PTS launched.0 -
boi_anachronism_✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I mean cloudrest is what 5years old now? More? Vcr hm is still considered one of the hardest in the game. Way above sunspire and vka which were much later additions
So no. I dont buy the old should be easy argument.Edited by boi_anachronism_ on 25 September 2023 20:340
This discussion has been closed.