The Undaunted Event Postmortem: How Minigame Design Oversimplification Can Ruin an Entire Event.
Tomasius
✭✭✭
SUMMARY
I think we can see, from a number of other posts, that the Undaunted Event had its share of disappointments; mostly revolving around a QoL issue arising from a serious design flaw in the Dungeon Finder. As we shall see, the issue revolves around a failure to identify player experience objectives and consequent failure to assign players to teams with common player experience objectives. A secondary issue is the assumption that the ideal squad composition is always healer/tank/damage/damage when some mobs (e.g. Rogerain the Sly) require either four damage dealers, four hybrids (two specialties each) or four versatiles (balanced across all three of healer/tank/damage specialties) because Rogerain the Sly can win just by singling out the healer and wiping the rest of the team (and if that's not already scripted for this NPC, then it should be considered a bug for a character with Rogerain's capabilities).
INTRODUCTION
I've gotten to know a few group dungeons, in solo mode and the good news is that I can't complete most of these solo on a level 30-40 character - although if I worked on refining a variety of solo roles, maybe I'd find something with the right fit for some of those. There are some that I can solo (Wayrest Sewers I) and that one made a great control test which I could use to check other things like ticket drops and residual drop checks (post-event) - and it was a good baseline against which to compare other group dungeons. I was very pleasantly surprised by the variety; particularly in the variety of ways key bosses could rip apart a conventional team and the potential for them to succumb to teams with an alternative team composition.
Initially, the lack of choice of team composition (provided by the Dungeon Finder) looked like a recipe for disaster in the face of some of the bosses, however, the Dungeon Finder has a much bigger problem.
Before we think about roles or, especially, team composition; what we need to be thinking about is whether our character goals are in line with those of the other characters on the team. Anyone can pitch in as a healer or a tank; maybe not a very good healer or tank but better than a poke in the eye with a burnt stick. But ... what if there is no healer or tank because the healer and tank decided that they wanted to exterminate every last mob in the dungeon (no matter how insignificant) and were still not 50 yards from the entrance when both damage dealers arrived at the pivotal boss (not the final boss but a blocker, used in many but not all group dungeons, to prevent soloists and non-cohesive teams from progressing further e.g. Ulguna Soul-Reaver)?
OBSERVATIONS
Little things like this led to a situation where materiel-farmers and speed-runners would leave behind other players and either get caught by a pivot boss (learning from this to bail out of "difficult" dungeons and leave teams queued while waiting on replacements) or kill the final boss and conclude the activity before the other team members had been able to tag the final boss and benefit from the "completion" of the "activity". This, in turn, has led to considerable acrimony between players who don't care to see it + just want to get it done and players who want to see the sights, take in the dungeon, maybe kill ALL the beasties along the way and, ultimately, "consume" the "content".
ANALYSIS
It's the fault of neither of these broad groups that players with incompatible player experience objectives get lumped in together. That is a fault in the Dungeon Finder's design.
As I see it, there are a number of groups which will want to take things at a slower pace:
And there are also players who will want to complete the dungeon as fast as possible for a variety of reasons:
At this juncture, I need to point out that play, not work, is the point of gameplay. That's why it's called gameplay, not gamework.
OK, so, in the event a player experience objective system is implemented): What if; in order to shorten wait times in a queue, a player decides to misidentify his or her player experience objectives? The consequences are already there for Pathfinders, Explorers and Exterminators (see above) but it could ruin the experience for these players if Speedrunners or Farmers were to misidentify themselves and where are the consequences? Well, one of the things I noticed, along the way, was all the mobs scrambling back to their start positions once they got too far away. This is a great mechanic for speedrunners and Farmers but is terrible for for players who are there to "consume" the "content" because it strips away the "seriousness" of the "ground" (to used Sun Tsu's turn of phrase) by taking away the consequence of the choice to leave enemies behind. There is a very simple fix. Simply turn off the aggro reset in spawns for Pathfinder, Explorer and Exterminator teams. You could also make this a 'hardcore' option for speedrunners because there's nothing quite like being jumped from behind by chickens coming home to roost. I say option because not all speedrunners are going to want this.
The distinction between seemingly closely aligned team types such Pathfinders, Explorers and Exterminators is also key because exterminators will want to move on once they run out of mobs whereas pathfinders may want to hang around and get to know the environment better while explorers may be searching for real or imagined secrets long after either of the other team type is finished with the dungeon. The same can be said of speedrunners and farmers. Farmers will be moving fast but to different objectives with mobs and bosses merely a nuisance or a means to an end along the way while speedrunners won't necessarily want to stop for heavy containers (sacks and crates) along the way and will be more focussed on a key boss or select group of bosses. Keeping the player on the same team as other players with sufficiently similar goals is key to keeping player character behaviour sufficiently aligned for everyone to have a good experience of the activity.
CONCLUSION
Although there may not currently be enough participation in Group Dungeons to justify offering the player a choice of team type (i.e. Pathfinders, Explorers, Exterminators, speedrunners, Farmers); simply offering this choice will improve the experience enough to make it worth the wait and, in time, improve participation in group dungeon activities well beyond the point where offering this choice is justified. That means a better player experience and better player experience means more referrals and more referrals means more of the kind of sales which result in the committed, long-term customer relationships which provide the valuable ongoing income after the initial sales have long-since passed.
And if you want this game to appeal to players who prefer team activities, then getting players onto teams who share their objectives is a good place to start.
Edited by Tomasius on 22 September 2023 04:08 I think we can see, from a number of other posts, that the Undaunted Event had its share of disappointments; mostly revolving around a QoL issue arising from a serious design flaw in the Dungeon Finder. As we shall see, the issue revolves around a failure to identify player experience objectives and consequent failure to assign players to teams with common player experience objectives. A secondary issue is the assumption that the ideal squad composition is always healer/tank/damage/damage when some mobs (e.g. Rogerain the Sly) require either four damage dealers, four hybrids (two specialties each) or four versatiles (balanced across all three of healer/tank/damage specialties) because Rogerain the Sly can win just by singling out the healer and wiping the rest of the team (and if that's not already scripted for this NPC, then it should be considered a bug for a character with Rogerain's capabilities).
INTRODUCTION
I've gotten to know a few group dungeons, in solo mode and the good news is that I can't complete most of these solo on a level 30-40 character - although if I worked on refining a variety of solo roles, maybe I'd find something with the right fit for some of those. There are some that I can solo (Wayrest Sewers I) and that one made a great control test which I could use to check other things like ticket drops and residual drop checks (post-event) - and it was a good baseline against which to compare other group dungeons. I was very pleasantly surprised by the variety; particularly in the variety of ways key bosses could rip apart a conventional team and the potential for them to succumb to teams with an alternative team composition.
Initially, the lack of choice of team composition (provided by the Dungeon Finder) looked like a recipe for disaster in the face of some of the bosses, however, the Dungeon Finder has a much bigger problem.
Before we think about roles or, especially, team composition; what we need to be thinking about is whether our character goals are in line with those of the other characters on the team. Anyone can pitch in as a healer or a tank; maybe not a very good healer or tank but better than a poke in the eye with a burnt stick. But ... what if there is no healer or tank because the healer and tank decided that they wanted to exterminate every last mob in the dungeon (no matter how insignificant) and were still not 50 yards from the entrance when both damage dealers arrived at the pivotal boss (not the final boss but a blocker, used in many but not all group dungeons, to prevent soloists and non-cohesive teams from progressing further e.g. Ulguna Soul-Reaver)?
OBSERVATIONS
Little things like this led to a situation where materiel-farmers and speed-runners would leave behind other players and either get caught by a pivot boss (learning from this to bail out of "difficult" dungeons and leave teams queued while waiting on replacements) or kill the final boss and conclude the activity before the other team members had been able to tag the final boss and benefit from the "completion" of the "activity". This, in turn, has led to considerable acrimony between players who don't care to see it + just want to get it done and players who want to see the sights, take in the dungeon, maybe kill ALL the beasties along the way and, ultimately, "consume" the "content".
ANALYSIS
It's the fault of neither of these broad groups that players with incompatible player experience objectives get lumped in together. That is a fault in the Dungeon Finder's design.
As I see it, there are a number of groups which will want to take things at a slower pace:
- Pathfinders: Players who haven't seen the dungeon before
- Explorers: Players who want to discover every last secret in the dungeon
- Exterminators: Player characters looking to eradicate every last mob in the dungeon
And there are also players who will want to complete the dungeon as fast as possible for a variety of reasons:
- Speedrunners: Players looking to be on the team which finds and kills the final boss in the fastest time possible
- Farmers: Players who are farming either gear, resources, tickets, gold, trophies or other items and want to cycle multiple dungeons, a dungeon, a location within the dungeon, or a particular boss as fast as possible in order to scoop up whatever they are farming in the shortest possible time because grinding is work, not play (which is why grinding is a good indication of design flaws - usually oversimplification of game mechanics)
At this juncture, I need to point out that play, not work, is the point of gameplay. That's why it's called gameplay, not gamework.
OK, so, in the event a player experience objective system is implemented): What if; in order to shorten wait times in a queue, a player decides to misidentify his or her player experience objectives? The consequences are already there for Pathfinders, Explorers and Exterminators (see above) but it could ruin the experience for these players if Speedrunners or Farmers were to misidentify themselves and where are the consequences? Well, one of the things I noticed, along the way, was all the mobs scrambling back to their start positions once they got too far away. This is a great mechanic for speedrunners and Farmers but is terrible for for players who are there to "consume" the "content" because it strips away the "seriousness" of the "ground" (to used Sun Tsu's turn of phrase) by taking away the consequence of the choice to leave enemies behind. There is a very simple fix. Simply turn off the aggro reset in spawns for Pathfinder, Explorer and Exterminator teams. You could also make this a 'hardcore' option for speedrunners because there's nothing quite like being jumped from behind by chickens coming home to roost. I say option because not all speedrunners are going to want this.
The distinction between seemingly closely aligned team types such Pathfinders, Explorers and Exterminators is also key because exterminators will want to move on once they run out of mobs whereas pathfinders may want to hang around and get to know the environment better while explorers may be searching for real or imagined secrets long after either of the other team type is finished with the dungeon. The same can be said of speedrunners and farmers. Farmers will be moving fast but to different objectives with mobs and bosses merely a nuisance or a means to an end along the way while speedrunners won't necessarily want to stop for heavy containers (sacks and crates) along the way and will be more focussed on a key boss or select group of bosses. Keeping the player on the same team as other players with sufficiently similar goals is key to keeping player character behaviour sufficiently aligned for everyone to have a good experience of the activity.
CONCLUSION
Although there may not currently be enough participation in Group Dungeons to justify offering the player a choice of team type (i.e. Pathfinders, Explorers, Exterminators, speedrunners, Farmers); simply offering this choice will improve the experience enough to make it worth the wait and, in time, improve participation in group dungeon activities well beyond the point where offering this choice is justified. That means a better player experience and better player experience means more referrals and more referrals means more of the kind of sales which result in the committed, long-term customer relationships which provide the valuable ongoing income after the initial sales have long-since passed.
And if you want this game to appeal to players who prefer team activities, then getting players onto teams who share their objectives is a good place to start.
Ex dubium scientia.
From doubt [comes] knowledge
From doubt [comes] knowledge
2
-
Aislinna✭✭✭✭✭Good news! Update 40 will bring a new grouping tool, where you can define your desired group structure anyway you want and accept or decline people who ask to join you.
3 -
Tomasius✭✭✭Good news! Update 40 will bring a new grouping tool, where you can define your desired group structure anyway you want and accept or decline people who ask to join you.
That's a pretty neat tool if you're looking to build a dream team but how does it address the main problem with the Dungeon Finder (not the Group Finder) described in the OP? How does it communicate your group's player experience objective to prospective group members?
Ex dubium scientia.
From doubt [comes] knowledge0 -
Aislinna✭✭✭✭✭Good news! Update 40 will bring a new grouping tool, where you can define your desired group structure anyway you want and accept or decline people who ask to join you.
That's a pretty neat tool if you're looking to build a dream team but how does it address the main problem with the Dungeon Finder (not the Group Finder) described in the OP? How does it communicate your group's player experience objective to prospective group members?
It's a pretty neat tool for building ANY team, not just a dream team. I read the OP's post as looking for more ways to define the type of group they want to run with. If a person wants a dungeon sight-seeing group or a farming group, they can specify that with the upcoming tool, make their group and queue up through the dungeon finder if they don't want to just enter directly. With a full pre-made group, problem solved, they have the type of group they want to run with. It's something people can and do now, pre-make their full group and then queue up and since full groups in dungeon finder do not get random non-like-minded people added to their group, no unwanted type of players are in the group. People who don't care what type of players they are grouped with in dungeon finder will continue to just queue in blindly and go with the flow; people who do care now have a tool to help them create the experience objective they desire.
3 -
Tomasius✭✭✭That's a pretty neat tool if you're looking to build a dream team but how does it address the main problem with the Dungeon Finder (not the Group Finder) described in the OP? How does it communicate your group's player experience objective to prospective group members?
It's a pretty neat tool for building ANY team, not just a dream team. I read the OP's post as looking for more ways to define the type of group they want to run with. If a person wants a dungeon sight-seeing group or a farming group, they can specify that with the upcoming tool, make their group and queue up through the dungeon finder if they don't want to just enter directly. With a full pre-made group, problem solved, they have the type of group they want to run with. It's something people can and do now, pre-make their full group and then queue up and since full groups in dungeon finder do not get random non-like-minded people added to their group, no unwanted type of players are in the group. People who don't care what type of players they are grouped with in dungeon finder will continue to just queue in blindly and go with the flow; people who do care now have a tool to help them create the experience objective they desire.
Well, on that subject, I wonder if the Patch 40 Group Finder renders the Dungeon Finder obsolete?
Admittedly, I did find the random dungeon function of the Dungeon Finder really useful for getting a feel for both the group dynamics and internal biases and the different player experience objectives and how they tended to interact.
I'm not sure what the process of making a group is, now (other than setting up a time with friends or guildmates), but some of the feedback indicated there were some who didn't want to go this way.
? ?? ??? ?? ? For some reason ? ?? ??? ?? ?
I'll have to have a play around with the group finder (before and after 40) to see what that some reason might be and whether it got addressed but, given the inability or reluctance of some commentators to be more specific, I suspect that it may have to do with a lack of streamlining. In light of how vague some of this feedback can get, can most players be expected to be consciously aware of concepts like "player experience" objectives? And can they be expected to, intuitively, know how to communicate about these objectives effectively in the space allowed? Or does this need to be formalised into broad options like the healer, tank and damage roles? That's where my five group types are coming from. I suspect that something like that, on a dropdown list, might help streamline the process for a tool like the Dungeon Finder and the audience it serves.
Having meandered down to this point, I can imagine the Group Finder being more of a tool for the player who has learned the ropes from the Dungeon Finder and has something more specific in mind...but does it get the audience necessary to fill specific roles in a timely manner?Ex dubium scientia.
From doubt [comes] knowledge0 -
Aislinna✭✭✭✭✭That's a pretty neat tool if you're looking to build a dream team but how does it address the main problem with the Dungeon Finder (not the Group Finder) described in the OP? How does it communicate your group's player experience objective to prospective group members?
It's a pretty neat tool for building ANY team, not just a dream team. I read the OP's post as looking for more ways to define the type of group they want to run with. If a person wants a dungeon sight-seeing group or a farming group, they can specify that with the upcoming tool, make their group and queue up through the dungeon finder if they don't want to just enter directly. With a full pre-made group, problem solved, they have the type of group they want to run with. It's something people can and do now, pre-make their full group and then queue up and since full groups in dungeon finder do not get random non-like-minded people added to their group, no unwanted type of players are in the group. People who don't care what type of players they are grouped with in dungeon finder will continue to just queue in blindly and go with the flow; people who do care now have a tool to help them create the experience objective they desire.
Well, on that subject, I wonder if the Patch 40 Group Finder renders the Dungeon Finder obsolete?
Admittedly, I did find the random dungeon function of the Dungeon Finder really useful for getting a feel for both the group dynamics and internal biases and the different player experience objectives and how they tended to interact.
I'm not sure what the process of making a group is, now (other than setting up a time with friends or guildmates), but some of the feedback indicated there were some who didn't want to go this way.
? ?? ??? ?? ? For some reason ? ?? ??? ?? ?
I'll have to have a play around with the group finder (before and after 40) to see what that some reason might be and whether it got addressed but, given the inability or reluctance of some commentators to be more specific, I suspect that it may have to do with a lack of streamlining. In light of how vague some of this feedback can get, can most players be expected to be consciously aware of concepts like "player experience" objectives? And can they be expected to, intuitively, know how to communicate about these objectives effectively in the space allowed? Or does this need to be formalised into broad options like the healer, tank and damage roles? That's where my five group types are coming from. I suspect that something like that, on a dropdown list, might help streamline the process for a tool like the Dungeon Finder and the audience it serves.
Having meandered down to this point, I can imagine the Group Finder being more of a tool for the player who has learned the ropes from the Dungeon Finder and has something more specific in mind...but does it get the audience necessary to fill specific roles in a timely manner?
* if the Patch 40 Group Finder renders the Dungeon Finder obsolete?
I don't think the current dungeon finder will become obsolete, I think many people will continue using it as is. Many people, including myself, run dungeons for an objective, not an experience; I want the 10 transmutes from running a random, I want the undaunted keys from running pledges, I want gear sets, etc. As such, I don't care if the run is a normal pace run or a speed run, however I don't want to be in a sight-seeing group that takes forever. A normal run IMO, is moving as a group (nobody running ahead and not havng to wait excessively for somebody who isn't moving) to the bosses killing mobs on the way as needed, allowing questers to get their quest (not slowly sounding out the quest dialogue (scan, click and go), maybe doing common skips (i.e., Fungal Grotto 1) but that's up to whoever is running in the front, and opening treasure chests that are along the path (not having to hunt down side paths). Speedruns are moving fast, outrunning and not killing mobs, not stopping for treasure chests, just killing necessary bosses and getting to the end quickly. Sight-seeing groups take a lot of photographs along the way and move slowly.
* what the process of making a group is, now (other than setting up a time with friends or guildmates)
That is exactly what the current process is, or advertise in zone chat (Craglorn is a popular zone for it). If people want a specific experience, but don't want to put any effort into creating that experience, I don't know what to say. I want a vacation overseas, but nobody has set that up for me, where do I complain?
* does it get the audience necessary to fill specific roles in a timely manner?
That is the big question and will have to be seen. But 99% of the time there seems to be an active thread on this forum with people complaining they don't get the dungeon experience they want. Fake tanks, fake healers, low DPS, speedrunners, unable to read and roleplay the quests, etc. I would expect these people, who care enough to complain, to use the new group tool, but sadly I fear the forum complaints will change to "nobody will join my specific experience group". It will be suggested that they join guilds who will help people get the experience type they want, but many seem to say no to that. My guilds help people do quest runs, help new tanks/healers or low DPS get their monster helms by carrying them through vet (was done for me and I help others now), help farm gear sets, etc. The tools and means are available to everybody, but again, I don' t know what to say if someone doesn't want to help themselves.
I hope the new group tool helps the people curranty dissatisfied with the dungeon finder to get the type of dungeon runs they want, but only time will tell.
Edited by Aislinna on 23 September 2023 02:461 -
Tomasius✭✭✭...But 99% of the time there seems to be an active thread on this forum with people complaining they don't get the dungeon experience they want. Fake tanks, fake healers, low DPS, speedrunners, unable to read and roleplay the quests, etc.
And there's the problem. Most of those people don't have the systems analysis skills to step back and see the distinction between typicality and normality. If they want a more casual pace to do the mission or take in the sights, that makes all speedrunners evil(TM) - and vice-versa. It never occurs to them that other people may want to do something different.I would expect these people, who care enough to complain, to use the new group tool, but sadly I fear the forum complaints will change to "nobody will join my specific experience group".
This is why streamlining and linearisation of UI interaction processes (e.g. the UI "wizard" system) are important aspects of UI design. It's a balancing act between too few options and too many options or between too vague and too specific. And picking the right balance point boils down to identifying the saddlepoints between activity sets which succeed at oneanother's expense; and this part is not exactly intuitive. So I'm afraid I'm inclined to agree with you on that one. Very afraid.
And here's the kicker. Just because you might happen to know how to do this analysis I'm talking about doesn't mean everyone does or, for that matter, even more than just a handful of people in the entire world. It's not like it gets taught in school or university (judging by the lackluster quality of GUI design I see churned out in various industries year after year, decades on end).It will be suggested that they join guilds who will help people get the experience type they want, but many seem to say no to that. My guilds help people do quest runs, help new tanks/healers or low DPS get their monster helms by carrying them through vet (was done for me and I help others now), help farm gear sets, etc. The tools and means are available to everybody, but again, I don' t know what to say if someone doesn't want to help themselves.
Or, for that matter, just play the game. I mean, that's what I'm doing. For me, it's about the journey; a journey taken among many others on their own journey - but that doesn't mean it has to be about the journey for everyone. Oh, and the bugs. Seriously, if you ever get bored by oversimplified game mechanics, try hunting down some bugs. That's one thing that'll never be successfully oversimplified to the point of drudgery.I hope the new group tool helps the people curranty dissatisfied with the dungeon finder to get the type of dungeon runs they want, but only time will tell.
Me too. In the meantime, I'll be stocking up on popcorn for what the next season brings!Ex dubium scientia.
From doubt [comes] knowledge0 -
blktauna✭✭✭✭✭
✭I just report the speed runners for training if they continue after being asked to stop. And if I'm crown I vote to kick.
Its inconsiderate and selfish doing that. Lowbies can not match the speed and then get swamped and die. Rude.PCNA
PCEU0