Mythics vs. Monster Sets: Bring Back Monster Sets

BlueRaven

El_Borracho wrote: »

@BlueRaven awesome literal response to the first sentence of my original post. No need to read further.

But do go on. Because farming nodes directly correlates to using the Oakensoul ring in combat. As does looting lockboxes in Murkmire. Just like running Lair of Maarselok to get a Maarselok helm. Or March of Sacrifices for a Balorgh helm. Almost indistinguishable.

And thanks for pointing out you can wear both. Good to know I can wear a watered down monster set, or maybe only one piece of it. Because I still want to run an arena weapon with it, because the arena weapon is now much better than 2 pieces of a monster set. A choice that only exists because the original, more powerful version of the monster set doesn't exist anymore because it was nerfed ahead of mythics coming out. That makes me want to go out and run more dungeons to get more watered down monster sets.

Will have to try that out, right after I get back to playing the game, aka hoping that watchling drops that lead this time. Strange, never really had to hope and pray the final boss of a dungeon dropped that helm in order to get a useful armor piece...

There is no special competition between monsters and mythics. Gearing requires choices. ‘Can I get A and B in the same build? How can I incorporate C?’

And it’s not like mythics are immune to nerfs.

And “mining nodes” is a way over simplification about getting mythics, so what ever point you are trying to make, it’s getting lost. Getting a mythic requires doing the “work” to get them. Skill points, crafting, leveling, there is effort there. Any “just turned cp 150” player can get any monster helm they want, if they have friends to carry them. So don’t make this an “effort” argument.

This all sounds like nothing more than another tired “those players don’t deserve the gear they got” thread if it is, no one voted you the arbiter of rewards.

WrathOfInnos

I would like to have the option to use both a mythic and a monster set. The problem is that with a 5-piece set that leaves 12-5-2-1=4 slots open, and there is not a good option to fill these slots. Even 3 piece sets have fallen behind compared to all the better gear options. Things like Willpower/Agility and Eagle Eye/Imperial Wrath could use an update (and some bug fixes), but even that does not fully solve the issue because it leaves a dead slot that cannot be filled with a 1pc helm or shoulder.

AlterBlika

OBJnoob wrote: »

One task can be performed faster by a talented player. One task takes everyone the same amount of time (notwithstanding RNG.) They create artificial difficulty around acquiring mythics by tying them to finite nodes or quests that can only be done daily.

I don't think anyone here misses that fact. I think it's exactly what is being complained about.

This is fine. Mythics are meant to be somewhat rare, you don't just kill some bad guy and get them. What can we possible do? Lock them behind vet trials? People would get them anyway, even faster most likely.

Ingenon

OBJnoob wrote: »

Amount of time spent is not the same as difficulty.

One task can be performed faster by a talented player. One task takes everyone the same amount of time (notwithstanding RNG.) They create artificial difficulty around acquiring mythics by tying them to finite nodes or quests that can only be done daily.

I don't think anyone here misses that fact. I think it's exactly what is being complained about.

So getting a mythic task takes the same amount of time for a new player or veteran player? Once the new player levels antiquities, of course. Sounds fair to me. I would rather have ZOS make it take the same time for new player and veteran player to get the gear they need to do group PvE content.

Inaya1

Mythics are just P2W (Buy dlc and you can do all content!). Just don't argue with me, it's useless because there is a lot of experience in pvp and trifects in pve (all but the last two trials).

After they were introduced, the game was already destroyed. If before you had the choice to wear set 1 or set 2 and etc (so very short list) in any content, now you have almost only 1 gear setup for all content and classes. And it definitely includes mythic. (Except for score-runs, where RL selects the best time-management builds. But this is a completely different level. Not for beginners, not for average players, and not even beginner end-game players, but much more seriously).

Yes, you can easily play with any builds. Wear a Velidreth, Selena or an Illambris (Miserly tear of an old player). But it will stupidly be INEFFICIENT. You are literally being pushed to the fact that you NEED it. You can run a random dungeon on normal in 20 minutes in a group, or you can equip a super duper build DLC and complete the same dungeon IN 5 MINUTES SOLO. Feel the difference? And if you don’t buy any DLC at all, you'll just deal terrible damage. (You will be able to deal damage, but not as effectively. (It's like forcing yourself to removing all the armor in the set slot from the tank and filling it with random white gear and going to tank the HM dungeon DLC).
It's not that the monster sets are irrelevant, it's that zos (pay more, we dont care about game) balance has destroyed the game. It is impossible to assemble it properly, there are just a couple of directions of new super-strong sets and that's it. To fix this, a hard rebalance is needed again, which the extended development staff will think about. But no one needs this, leave the dying game alone. Maybe then the developers will notice that their donkey died.

And I haven't talked about pvp yet. There was only dust left from the balance.
Oops, I forgot about the arcanist. Sorry. Why do all classes and sets needed if there is an arcanist with one gear? This game is called The elder Arcanists online, yep?

FantasticFreddie

Inaya1 wrote: »

Mythics are just P2W (Buy dlc and you can do all content!). Just don't argue with me, it's useless because there is a lot of experience in pvp and trifects in pve (all but the last two trials).

After they were introduced, the game was already destroyed. If before you had the choice to wear set 1 or set 2 and etc (so very short list) in any content, now you have almost only 1 gear setup for all content and classes. And it definitely includes mythic. (Except for score-runs, where RL selects the best time-management builds. But this is a completely different level. Not for beginners, not for average players, and not even beginner end-game players, but much more seriously).

Yes, you can easily play with any builds. Wear a Velidreth, Selena or an Illambris (Miserly tear of an old player). But it will stupidly be INEFFICIENT. You are literally being pushed to the fact that you NEED it. You can run a random dungeon on normal in 20 minutes in a group, or you can equip a super duper build DLC and complete the same dungeon IN 5 MINUTES SOLO. Feel the difference? And if you don’t buy any DLC at all, you'll just deal terrible damage. (You will be able to deal damage, but not as effectively. (It's like forcing yourself to removing all the armor in the set slot from the tank and filling it with random white gear and going to tank the HM dungeon DLC).
It's not that the monster sets are irrelevant, it's that zos (pay more, we dont care about game) balance has destroyed the game. It is impossible to assemble it properly, there are just a couple of directions of new super-strong sets and that's it. To fix this, a hard rebalance is needed again, which the extended development staff will think about. But no one needs this, leave the dying game alone. Maybe then the developers will notice that their donkey died.

And I haven't talked about pvp yet. There was only dust left from the balance.
Oops, I forgot about the arcanist. Sorry. Why do all classes and sets needed if there is an arcanist with one gear? This game is called The elder Arcanists online, yep?

Well someone is certainly feeling dramatic today.
Hot take: if all you own is base game, you don't need the latest and greatest mythic or class. Wardens have been stupid strong in pvp for years, and part of base game since 2018.

Necrotech_Master

theres a fair amount of mythics available now, but my problem is that a vast majority of them arent even worth really using or (as others noted) dont neatly fit into a build because they take up 1 slot, leaving only 11 slot left

so your options for a build are 2x 5pc sets and 1pc of some filler set (1pc monster or another set such as trainee/druid braid)
or 1 5pc set, 1 2pc monster, 1 3pc set, and 1 pc filler (such as trainee or druid)

the only other build variant which really supports markyn mythic is a running 3x 3pc sets and then either 2pc monster or arena weapon

boi_anachronism_

Um. They dont even allow kilt in some trials. Too much direct damage. Its content dependent. If your lead says any different they dont know what they are talking about. Im in score pushing guilds. We are talking people who have gotten gh 12x. Mythics are not acceptable for a lot of content with the exception of the arc. Troll king, symphony, zaan, naz,sentinal, encratis all heavily used monster sets.

Auldwulfe

I would like to clarify - many of the mythics require that you spend significant time leveling up skill lines, BEFORE you can even start.... I can get carries at level 10.

Secondly, each mythic has 5 parts, and it's a bit more than just one easy task....

Thirdly, they are NOT mutually exclusive .... I have a character wearing a 5 piece set, a 3 piece set, a monster set, a mythic, AND a single piece of armor from the starter zone sets for even more health.......

There are MANY combinations that can be done ..... and each part is only one block in building your character.....

That said, too many of the monster sets are limited -- I skip over many I would love to use, if it went off more than 10% of the time, etc....
For example, I am using Imladris on one character.... but when it goes off, it, invariably, goes off on the one lone target that immediately runs out of it's tiny area of effect, while the group I was hoping would get it (hitting them ALL with an AOE) gets missed ......

At times, it really does feel like the game seeks out every possible way to make sure you do minimal damage, or have minimal effect......

Auldwulfe

El_Borracho

BlueRaven wrote: »

El_Borracho wrote: »

@BlueRaven awesome literal response to the first sentence of my original post. No need to read further.

But do go on. Because farming nodes directly correlates to using the Oakensoul ring in combat. As does looting lockboxes in Murkmire. Just like running Lair of Maarselok to get a Maarselok helm. Or March of Sacrifices for a Balorgh helm. Almost indistinguishable.

And thanks for pointing out you can wear both. Good to know I can wear a watered down monster set, or maybe only one piece of it. Because I still want to run an arena weapon with it, because the arena weapon is now much better than 2 pieces of a monster set. A choice that only exists because the original, more powerful version of the monster set doesn't exist anymore because it was nerfed ahead of mythics coming out. That makes me want to go out and run more dungeons to get more watered down monster sets.

Will have to try that out, right after I get back to playing the game, aka hoping that watchling drops that lead this time. Strange, never really had to hope and pray the final boss of a dungeon dropped that helm in order to get a useful armor piece...

There is no special competition between monsters and mythics. Gearing requires choices. ‘Can I get A and B in the same build? How can I incorporate C?’

And it’s not like mythics are immune to nerfs.

And “mining nodes” is a way over simplification about getting mythics, so what ever point you are trying to make, it’s getting lost. Getting a mythic requires doing the “work” to get them. Skill points, crafting, leveling, there is effort there. Any “just turned cp 150” player can get any monster helm they want, if they have friends to carry them. So don’t make this an “effort” argument.

This all sounds like nothing more than another tired “those players don’t deserve the gear they got” thread if it is, no one voted you the arbiter of rewards.

Oversimplification. Yeah, wouldn't want to do that.

Yes, any CP 160 player can get a monster helm, by playing the game with others. Who are better than them. Who might [GASP] teach mechanics and help others improve. Which is so, so much worse than "actually" playing the game by, again, farming nodes, opening lockboxes, and even reading a book (Pale Order), right? Things apparently integral to PVE and PVP group play. Like that time you had to mine 10 jewelry nodes to beat the Warrior in Hel Ra.

But keep claiming I am somehow against mythics. I don't know why you do, as I have repeatedly said I am not. As my whole point is TO MAKE MONSTER SETS STRONG AGAIN TO GIVE PLAYERS THE OPTION OF RUNNING THEM INSTEAD OF MYTHICS, OR WITH MYTHICS. But somehow that is construed as me being "the arbiter of rewards" (whatever that is) because in reality, this is just another disguised elitist thread where I am super angry that "players don't deserve the gear they got." By proposing a viable alternative that would bring back diversity of builds.

Where is the eye roll emoji when you need one.

OBJnoob

Ingenon wrote: »

OBJnoob wrote: »

Amount of time spent is not the same as difficulty.

One task can be performed faster by a talented player. One task takes everyone the same amount of time (notwithstanding RNG.) They create artificial difficulty around acquiring mythics by tying them to finite nodes or quests that can only be done daily.

I don't think anyone here misses that fact. I think it's exactly what is being complained about.

So getting a mythic task takes the same amount of time for a new player or veteran player? Once the new player levels antiquities, of course. Sounds fair to me. I would rather have ZOS make it take the same time for new player and veteran player to get the gear they need to do group PvE content.

I'm not complaining exactly. I'm fine with mythics and I'm fine with monster sets. But if I had to pick something... I'd like the best or supposedly most rare items to be gotten from challenging content.

Now a lot of vet dungeons aren't hard for people either so... I'm not sure I'm making a great point. But running around picking lockboxes or doing dailies doesn't quite seem fitting to me for the VERY best items. Leads are leads I guess. It is right and even fun that they can be found wherever. I just kinda wish maybe, after digging it up, you were faced with some world boss that you had to solo or something.

Because after you've spent a couple skill points into scrying and excavating the process is very easy. And the whole thing really does feel like a RNG waiting game.

It's funny because I used to play EverQuest and WoW, and obviously I like this game-- I'm not scared of a little grind. But some of it is grinding just to grind. I hate that they hide leads in places that can be competed over (murkmire,) and I hate that they put them as rewards for quests that can only be done once per day. If you want us to grind then let us grind. Don't make me spend 3 minutes a day for 3 weeks that's friggin lame. And logging into 8 different characters to do the same 3 minute task is also lame. Needlessly so.

Kalle_Demos

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

Kalle_Demos wrote: »

One thing to remember about Monster Sets, Procs specifically, is that the ridiculous spell/weapon threshold restriction is still in effect. Unless you have 6,574 Weapon or Spell Damage, your proc set values are cut in half from their original values. Getting rid of this malformed 'solution' to what at the time could be boiled down to pvp whining and an unethical attempt to make Mythics, still behind paywalls, more appealing would be an excellent step in putting the 'Monster' back into Monster Sets.

1) Getting to 6500 weapon or spell damage is not that hard.

2) Even if you don't get that high, most procs still retain their usefulness.

Proc set scaling was needed, and wasn't due to "pvp whining".

1) Getting to 6,574 weapon damage is much easier than spell damage only adding more imbalance to the game.

2) With their values cut IN HALF, proc Monster Sets are not nearly as useful or fun as they were. Hence this thread and many in the past.

3) Procs were yet another victim of the heavy handed nerf hammer. And in conjunction with the dev's new pay walled favorite Mythics, a casualty of unethical business practices.

boi_anachronism_

El_Borracho wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

El_Borracho wrote: »

@BlueRaven awesome literal response to the first sentence of my original post. No need to read further.

But do go on. Because farming nodes directly correlates to using the Oakensoul ring in combat. As does looting lockboxes in Murkmire. Just like running Lair of Maarselok to get a Maarselok helm. Or March of Sacrifices for a Balorgh helm. Almost indistinguishable.

And thanks for pointing out you can wear both. Good to know I can wear a watered down monster set, or maybe only one piece of it. Because I still want to run an arena weapon with it, because the arena weapon is now much better than 2 pieces of a monster set. A choice that only exists because the original, more powerful version of the monster set doesn't exist anymore because it was nerfed ahead of mythics coming out. That makes me want to go out and run more dungeons to get more watered down monster sets.

Will have to try that out, right after I get back to playing the game, aka hoping that watchling drops that lead this time. Strange, never really had to hope and pray the final boss of a dungeon dropped that helm in order to get a useful armor piece...

There is no special competition between monsters and mythics. Gearing requires choices. ‘Can I get A and B in the same build? How can I incorporate C?’

And it’s not like mythics are immune to nerfs.

And “mining nodes” is a way over simplification about getting mythics, so what ever point you are trying to make, it’s getting lost. Getting a mythic requires doing the “work” to get them. Skill points, crafting, leveling, there is effort there. Any “just turned cp 150” player can get any monster helm they want, if they have friends to carry them. So don’t make this an “effort” argument.

This all sounds like nothing more than another tired “those players don’t deserve the gear they got” thread if it is, no one voted you the arbiter of rewards.

Oversimplification. Yeah, wouldn't want to do that.

Yes, any CP 160 player can get a monster helm, by playing the game with others. Who are better than them. Who might [GASP] teach mechanics and help others improve. Which is so, so much worse than "actually" playing the game by, again, farming nodes, opening lockboxes, and even reading a book (Pale Order), right? Things apparently integral to PVE and PVP group play. Like that time you had to mine 10 jewelry nodes to beat the Warrior in Hel Ra.

But keep claiming I am somehow against mythics. I don't know why you do, as I have repeatedly said I am not. As my whole point is TO MAKE MONSTER SETS STRONG AGAIN TO GIVE PLAYERS THE OPTION OF RUNNING THEM INSTEAD OF MYTHICS, OR WITH MYTHICS. But somehow that is construed as me being "the arbiter of rewards" (whatever that is) because in reality, this is just another disguised elitist thread where I am super angry that "players don't deserve the gear they got." By proposing a viable alternative that would bring back diversity of builds.

Where is the eye roll emoji when you need one.

You do and can run them with mythics. What is the argument 🤔 im so confused. Both in pvp and pve.. the monster sets i listed are in the meta. I could list a few more used for pvp as well.

finehair

BlueRaven wrote: »

El_Borracho wrote: »

Once upon a time, you had to play the actual game to get some of the best gear.

Wait, have I not been playing the game? Can I get 10 years worth of refunds? 😆

Couple of things to break down here;

- “Once upon s time” dungeons were much simpler, and let’s face it, easier.

- & “Once upon s time” the dungeon community (and the eso community in general) was much less toxic.

- No one can just press a button and get the latest mythic, it takes a commitment to the game.

-There is no “conflict” between mythics and monster helms. There is a boat load of monster helms to choose from. And both can be worn at the same time.

It literally took me 1 hour to get oakensoul, but I understand your point

Naftal

While mythics do compete with item slots with monster sets sometimes, I think more often the monster set is competing with arena weapons. You can do builds with two 5-piece sets, monster and mythic.

LunaFlora

Naftal wrote: »

While mythics do compete with item slots with monster sets sometimes, I think more often the monster set is competing with arena weapons. You can do builds with two 5-piece sets, monster and mythic.

you can only do that if you use only one piece of a monster set

FantasticFreddie

LunaFlora wrote: »

Naftal wrote: »

While mythics do compete with item slots with monster sets sometimes, I think more often the monster set is competing with arena weapons. You can do builds with two 5-piece sets, monster and mythic.

you can only do that if you use only one piece of a monster set

Not true. I run 2 5 piece sets, a monster set, and a mythic. It means I can't use an arena weapon, and you need 5 piece sets you don't need to always have active.

Inaya1

FantasticFreddie wrote: »

Inaya1 wrote: »

Mythics are just P2W (Buy dlc and you can do all content!). Just don't argue with me, it's useless because there is a lot of experience in pvp and trifects in pve (all but the last two trials).

After they were introduced, the game was already destroyed. If before you had the choice to wear set 1 or set 2 and etc (so very short list) in any content, now you have almost only 1 gear setup for all content and classes. And it definitely includes mythic. (Except for score-runs, where RL selects the best time-management builds. But this is a completely different level. Not for beginners, not for average players, and not even beginner end-game players, but much more seriously).

Yes, you can easily play with any builds. Wear a Velidreth, Selena or an Illambris (Miserly tear of an old player). But it will stupidly be INEFFICIENT. You are literally being pushed to the fact that you NEED it. You can run a random dungeon on normal in 20 minutes in a group, or you can equip a super duper build DLC and complete the same dungeon IN 5 MINUTES SOLO. Feel the difference? And if you don’t buy any DLC at all, you'll just deal terrible damage. (You will be able to deal damage, but not as effectively. (It's like forcing yourself to removing all the armor in the set slot from the tank and filling it with random white gear and going to tank the HM dungeon DLC).
It's not that the monster sets are irrelevant, it's that zos (pay more, we dont care about game) balance has destroyed the game. It is impossible to assemble it properly, there are just a couple of directions of new super-strong sets and that's it. To fix this, a hard rebalance is needed again, which the extended development staff will think about. But no one needs this, leave the dying game alone. Maybe then the developers will notice that their donkey died.

And I haven't talked about pvp yet. There was only dust left from the balance.
Oops, I forgot about the arcanist. Sorry. Why do all classes and sets needed if there is an arcanist with one gear? This game is called The elder Arcanists online, yep?

Well someone is certainly feeling dramatic today.
Hot take: if all you own is base game, you don't need the latest and greatest mythic or class. Wardens have been stupid strong in pvp for years, and part of base game since 2018.

You see, you just want to play in the class that you really want to play, and not in the class that is super-duper at this patch. And in any sets of your choice. But it all just comes down to one thing.

The Arcanist is generally a prime example. Crazy AOE DPS with the ability to dynamically change positioning, group damage acceleration, insane defense. No class can provide as many benefits as it does. Even when there was that terrifying meta on the NB, where they were in the majority, it was not felt so strongly, still I had to think with my own head. Why think about playing game if u have arcanist with free 18k strenght shield for 300 stamina with immunity to immobilization/interruption? And all rotation is a press 3 buttons. Elemental blockade, tentacles and beam.
I just don't want to play it anymore. This game has ceased to be interesting, even theorycrafting in min-max always runs into meta-sets/myths of new DLC or broken sets. This applies to both pvp and pve.

And the classes themselves were simply destroyed (All classes are now the same skeleton of one class, with the only difference in the graphical appearance of the skills), the only existing class....ARCANIST! He is the only one who has a unique gameplay style. For example, before the dk had a nerf, it was positioned as an anti-mage/range (wings reflected projectiles, the dk’s armor used to reflect more damage, increased melee damage), a berserker in melee but bad at healing itself, slow speed and terrible in range attacks (This forced all ranged enemies in pvp to go into melee, giving an advantage to dk, but if you play on dots or abilities with support, you got a strong advantage against dk). What now? - Do whatever you want, it will still turn out the same at any class (except for some difference in inconvenience between classes).

boi_anachronism_

Inaya1 wrote: »

FantasticFreddie wrote: »

Inaya1 wrote: »

Mythics are just P2W (Buy dlc and you can do all content!). Just don't argue with me, it's useless because there is a lot of experience in pvp and trifects in pve (all but the last two trials).

After they were introduced, the game was already destroyed. If before you had the choice to wear set 1 or set 2 and etc (so very short list) in any content, now you have almost only 1 gear setup for all content and classes. And it definitely includes mythic. (Except for score-runs, where RL selects the best time-management builds. But this is a completely different level. Not for beginners, not for average players, and not even beginner end-game players, but much more seriously).

Yes, you can easily play with any builds. Wear a Velidreth, Selena or an Illambris (Miserly tear of an old player). But it will stupidly be INEFFICIENT. You are literally being pushed to the fact that you NEED it. You can run a random dungeon on normal in 20 minutes in a group, or you can equip a super duper build DLC and complete the same dungeon IN 5 MINUTES SOLO. Feel the difference? And if you don’t buy any DLC at all, you'll just deal terrible damage. (You will be able to deal damage, but not as effectively. (It's like forcing yourself to removing all the armor in the set slot from the tank and filling it with random white gear and going to tank the HM dungeon DLC).
It's not that the monster sets are irrelevant, it's that zos (pay more, we dont care about game) balance has destroyed the game. It is impossible to assemble it properly, there are just a couple of directions of new super-strong sets and that's it. To fix this, a hard rebalance is needed again, which the extended development staff will think about. But no one needs this, leave the dying game alone. Maybe then the developers will notice that their donkey died.

And I haven't talked about pvp yet. There was only dust left from the balance.
Oops, I forgot about the arcanist. Sorry. Why do all classes and sets needed if there is an arcanist with one gear? This game is called The elder Arcanists online, yep?

Well someone is certainly feeling dramatic today.
Hot take: if all you own is base game, you don't need the latest and greatest mythic or class. Wardens have been stupid strong in pvp for years, and part of base game since 2018.

You see, you just want to play in the class that you really want to play, and not in the class that is super-duper at this patch. And in any sets of your choice. But it all just comes down to one thing.

The Arcanist is generally a prime example. Crazy AOE DPS with the ability to dynamically change positioning, group damage acceleration, insane defense. No class can provide as many benefits as it does. Even when there was that terrifying meta on the NB, where they were in the majority, it was not felt so strongly, still I had to think with my own head. Why think about playing game if u have arcanist with free 18k strenght shield for 300 stamina with immunity to immobilization/interruption? And all rotation is a press 3 buttons. Elemental blockade, tentacles and beam.
I just don't want to play it anymore. This game has ceased to be interesting, even theorycrafting in min-max always runs into meta-sets/myths of new DLC or broken sets. This applies to both pvp and pve.

And the classes themselves were simply destroyed (All classes are now the same skeleton of one class, with the only difference in the graphical appearance of the skills), the only existing class....ARCANIST! He is the only one who has a unique gameplay style. For example, before the dk had a nerf, it was positioned as an anti-mage/range (wings reflected projectiles, the dk’s armor used to reflect more damage, increased melee damage), a berserker in melee but bad at healing itself, slow speed and terrible in range attacks (This forced all ranged enemies in pvp to go into melee, giving an advantage to dk, but if you play on dots or abilities with support, you got a strong advantage against dk). What now? - Do whatever you want, it will still turn out the same at any class (except for some difference in inconvenience between classes).

So i posted this in another thread but im going to post this here. Im honestly not sure why people are so convinced arcanist is so broken. I didnt touch dk because its combinations with corrosive have been beaten to death as a topic, its excessively overtuned hence the insane dk meta for multiple patches. The point is classes are specialized. A decent sorc will womp an arc is 30secs. It takes one, maybe 2 hits to knock down the shield, a streak and a combo. I do it all the time. Never had an issue with arcs in pvp ever. I my buddys that play blades treat em like a shooting gallery. They got a big floating "danger will Robinson" sign over them. I hate to say it, but when i see these sorts a threads all im really seeing is folks dont know how to play their classes. Stregnths and weaknesses.


Blade: insane burst damage, excellent mobility, average burst heal/great "combat" heal, average mitigation, execute, no shield, cheap ulti, ulti regen, pen bonus, crit bonus, stealth, low health

Sorc: excellent burst, execute, excellent mobility, excellent mitigation, below average burst heal in pvp/excellent for pve, great "combat heal", no shield, great access to major/minor buffs, cc

Warden: unparalleled healing, great shields, amazing health passives, status effect advantage, average mobility, no burst, high ulti gen, great cc, decent access to buffs

Arc: excellent cleave, excellent shields, no burst heal, poor mobility, no burst damage, no execute, good mitigation, excellent ulti regen, great cc, excellent pen bonus, skills require stacks

Dk: ... eh.. i dont really need to touch this

The classes that currently need help right now are templars and the tragic necro. They desperately need some love

FantasticFreddie

Inaya1 wrote: »

FantasticFreddie wrote: »

Inaya1 wrote: »

Mythics are just P2W (Buy dlc and you can do all content!). Just don't argue with me, it's useless because there is a lot of experience in pvp and trifects in pve (all but the last two trials).

After they were introduced, the game was already destroyed. If before you had the choice to wear set 1 or set 2 and etc (so very short list) in any content, now you have almost only 1 gear setup for all content and classes. And it definitely includes mythic. (Except for score-runs, where RL selects the best time-management builds. But this is a completely different level. Not for beginners, not for average players, and not even beginner end-game players, but much more seriously).

Yes, you can easily play with any builds. Wear a Velidreth, Selena or an Illambris (Miserly tear of an old player). But it will stupidly be INEFFICIENT. You are literally being pushed to the fact that you NEED it. You can run a random dungeon on normal in 20 minutes in a group, or you can equip a super duper build DLC and complete the same dungeon IN 5 MINUTES SOLO. Feel the difference? And if you don’t buy any DLC at all, you'll just deal terrible damage. (You will be able to deal damage, but not as effectively. (It's like forcing yourself to removing all the armor in the set slot from the tank and filling it with random white gear and going to tank the HM dungeon DLC).
It's not that the monster sets are irrelevant, it's that zos (pay more, we dont care about game) balance has destroyed the game. It is impossible to assemble it properly, there are just a couple of directions of new super-strong sets and that's it. To fix this, a hard rebalance is needed again, which the extended development staff will think about. But no one needs this, leave the dying game alone. Maybe then the developers will notice that their donkey died.

And I haven't talked about pvp yet. There was only dust left from the balance.
Oops, I forgot about the arcanist. Sorry. Why do all classes and sets needed if there is an arcanist with one gear? This game is called The elder Arcanists online, yep?

Well someone is certainly feeling dramatic today.
Hot take: if all you own is base game, you don't need the latest and greatest mythic or class. Wardens have been stupid strong in pvp for years, and part of base game since 2018.

You see, you just want to play in the class that you really want to play, and not in the class that is super-duper at this patch. And in any sets of your choice. But it all just comes down to one thing.

The Arcanist is generally a prime example. Crazy AOE DPS with the ability to dynamically change positioning, group damage acceleration, insane defense. No class can provide as many benefits as it does. Even when there was that terrifying meta on the NB, where they were in the majority, it was not felt so strongly, still I had to think with my own head. Why think about playing game if u have arcanist with free 18k strenght shield for 300 stamina with immunity to immobilization/interruption? And all rotation is a press 3 buttons. Elemental blockade, tentacles and beam.
I just don't want to play it anymore. This game has ceased to be interesting, even theorycrafting in min-max always runs into meta-sets/myths of new DLC or broken sets. This applies to both pvp and pve.

And the classes themselves were simply destroyed (All classes are now the same skeleton of one class, with the only difference in the graphical appearance of the skills), the only existing class....ARCANIST! He is the only one who has a unique gameplay style. For example, before the dk had a nerf, it was positioned as an anti-mage/range (wings reflected projectiles, the dk’s armor used to reflect more damage, increased melee damage), a berserker in melee but bad at healing itself, slow speed and terrible in range attacks (This forced all ranged enemies in pvp to go into melee, giving an advantage to dk, but if you play on dots or abilities with support, you got a strong advantage against dk). What now? - Do whatever you want, it will still turn out the same at any class (except for some difference in inconvenience between classes).

Have you already forgotten the infamous Oakensorc? Did you forget that DKs have been supreme for years and are still equal with arcanist? Even templar has been gaining popularity in raid groups now.
Wardens haven't been strong dds in pve for a while but they are still a force to be reckoned with in pvp, and are still the staple healer literally everywhere.
I would say of original classes, nightblade has fallen out of favor and of dlc classes, necro could use some love in the pvp and pve dd departments-- It is still a staple raid tank.

boi_anachronism_

FantasticFreddie wrote: »

Inaya1 wrote: »

FantasticFreddie wrote: »

Inaya1 wrote: »

Mythics are just P2W (Buy dlc and you can do all content!). Just don't argue with me, it's useless because there is a lot of experience in pvp and trifects in pve (all but the last two trials).

After they were introduced, the game was already destroyed. If before you had the choice to wear set 1 or set 2 and etc (so very short list) in any content, now you have almost only 1 gear setup for all content and classes. And it definitely includes mythic. (Except for score-runs, where RL selects the best time-management builds. But this is a completely different level. Not for beginners, not for average players, and not even beginner end-game players, but much more seriously).

Yes, you can easily play with any builds. Wear a Velidreth, Selena or an Illambris (Miserly tear of an old player). But it will stupidly be INEFFICIENT. You are literally being pushed to the fact that you NEED it. You can run a random dungeon on normal in 20 minutes in a group, or you can equip a super duper build DLC and complete the same dungeon IN 5 MINUTES SOLO. Feel the difference? And if you don’t buy any DLC at all, you'll just deal terrible damage. (You will be able to deal damage, but not as effectively. (It's like forcing yourself to removing all the armor in the set slot from the tank and filling it with random white gear and going to tank the HM dungeon DLC).
It's not that the monster sets are irrelevant, it's that zos (pay more, we dont care about game) balance has destroyed the game. It is impossible to assemble it properly, there are just a couple of directions of new super-strong sets and that's it. To fix this, a hard rebalance is needed again, which the extended development staff will think about. But no one needs this, leave the dying game alone. Maybe then the developers will notice that their donkey died.

And I haven't talked about pvp yet. There was only dust left from the balance.
Oops, I forgot about the arcanist. Sorry. Why do all classes and sets needed if there is an arcanist with one gear? This game is called The elder Arcanists online, yep?

Well someone is certainly feeling dramatic today.
Hot take: if all you own is base game, you don't need the latest and greatest mythic or class. Wardens have been stupid strong in pvp for years, and part of base game since 2018.

You see, you just want to play in the class that you really want to play, and not in the class that is super-duper at this patch. And in any sets of your choice. But it all just comes down to one thing.

The Arcanist is generally a prime example. Crazy AOE DPS with the ability to dynamically change positioning, group damage acceleration, insane defense. No class can provide as many benefits as it does. Even when there was that terrifying meta on the NB, where they were in the majority, it was not felt so strongly, still I had to think with my own head. Why think about playing game if u have arcanist with free 18k strenght shield for 300 stamina with immunity to immobilization/interruption? And all rotation is a press 3 buttons. Elemental blockade, tentacles and beam.
I just don't want to play it anymore. This game has ceased to be interesting, even theorycrafting in min-max always runs into meta-sets/myths of new DLC or broken sets. This applies to both pvp and pve.

And the classes themselves were simply destroyed (All classes are now the same skeleton of one class, with the only difference in the graphical appearance of the skills), the only existing class....ARCANIST! He is the only one who has a unique gameplay style. For example, before the dk had a nerf, it was positioned as an anti-mage/range (wings reflected projectiles, the dk’s armor used to reflect more damage, increased melee damage), a berserker in melee but bad at healing itself, slow speed and terrible in range attacks (This forced all ranged enemies in pvp to go into melee, giving an advantage to dk, but if you play on dots or abilities with support, you got a strong advantage against dk). What now? - Do whatever you want, it will still turn out the same at any class (except for some difference in inconvenience between classes).

Have you already forgotten the infamous Oakensorc? Did you forget that DKs have been supreme for years and are still equal with arcanist? Even templar has been gaining popularity in raid groups now.
Wardens haven't been strong dds in pve for a while but they are still a force to be reckoned with in pvp, and are still the staple healer literally everywhere.
I would say of original classes, nightblade has fallen out of favor and of dlc classes, necro could use some love in the pvp and pve dd departments-- It is still a staple raid tank.

Nb is considered the worst class to bring to 12 man content at present. It has been for many patches. The reason is this: it provides few group buffs and rotations easily become interrupted causing dps to plummet. The notable exception is vas2 where they are still onsidered s tier for their self sustain. They are great in 4 man, great solo, great pvp but for trial its usually a no.

Auldwulfe

El_Borracho wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

El_Borracho wrote: »

@BlueRaven awesome literal response to the first sentence of my original post. No need to read further.

But do go on. Because farming nodes directly correlates to using the Oakensoul ring in combat. As does looting lockboxes in Murkmire. Just like running Lair of Maarselok to get a Maarselok helm. Or March of Sacrifices for a Balorgh helm. Almost indistinguishable.

And thanks for pointing out you can wear both. Good to know I can wear a watered down monster set, or maybe only one piece of it. Because I still want to run an arena weapon with it, because the arena weapon is now much better than 2 pieces of a monster set. A choice that only exists because the original, more powerful version of the monster set doesn't exist anymore because it was nerfed ahead of mythics coming out. That makes me want to go out and run more dungeons to get more watered down monster sets.

Will have to try that out, right after I get back to playing the game, aka hoping that watchling drops that lead this time. Strange, never really had to hope and pray the final boss of a dungeon dropped that helm in order to get a useful armor piece...

There is no special competition between monsters and mythics. Gearing requires choices. ‘Can I get A and B in the same build? How can I incorporate C?’

And it’s not like mythics are immune to nerfs.

And “mining nodes” is a way over simplification about getting mythics, so what ever point you are trying to make, it’s getting lost. Getting a mythic requires doing the “work” to get them. Skill points, crafting, leveling, there is effort there. Any “just turned cp 150” player can get any monster helm they want, if they have friends to carry them. So don’t make this an “effort” argument.

This all sounds like nothing more than another tired “those players don’t deserve the gear they got” thread if it is, no one voted you the arbiter of rewards.

Oversimplification. Yeah, wouldn't want to do that.

Yes, any CP 160 player can get a monster helm, by playing the game with others. Who are better than them. Who might [GASP] teach mechanics and help others improve. Which is so, so much worse than "actually" playing the game by, again, farming nodes, opening lockboxes, and even reading a book (Pale Order), right? Things apparently integral to PVE and PVP group play. Like that time you had to mine 10 jewelry nodes to beat the Warrior in Hel Ra.

But keep claiming I am somehow against mythics. I don't know why you do, as I have repeatedly said I am not. As my whole point is TO MAKE MONSTER SETS STRONG AGAIN TO GIVE PLAYERS THE OPTION OF RUNNING THEM INSTEAD OF MYTHICS, OR WITH MYTHICS. But somehow that is construed as me being "the arbiter of rewards" (whatever that is) because in reality, this is just another disguised elitist thread where I am super angry that "players don't deserve the gear they got." By proposing a viable alternative that would bring back diversity of builds.

Where is the eye roll emoji when you need one.

Honestly, the golden vendor is the primary source of monster sets, at this point..... more people just buy them, than earn them.....

Auldwulfe

Iriidius

Most PvP players use a monster set and a mythic, the most common Build Layouts are Frontbar 5piece, Backbar 5piece, 1 Trainee/druids, Mythic and Monsterset or Monsterset+Mythic+5piece+2 trainee/druids+2 arena weapons. Only when You use 2 monstersets both doublebarred or with arena set you have to decide between full monsterset and mythic.

FantasticFreddie wrote: »

Inaya1 wrote: »

Mythics are just P2W (Buy dlc and you can do all content!). Just don't argue with me, it's useless because there is a lot of experience in pvp and trifects in pve (all but the last two trials).

After they were introduced, the game was already destroyed. If before you had the choice to wear set 1 or set 2 and etc (so very short list) in any content, now you have almost only 1 gear setup for all content and classes. And it definitely includes mythic. (Except for score-runs, where RL selects the best time-management builds. But this is a completely different level. Not for beginners, not for average players, and not even beginner end-game players, but much more seriously).

Yes, you can easily play with any builds. Wear a Velidreth, Selena or an Illambris (Miserly tear of an old player). But it will stupidly be INEFFICIENT. You are literally being pushed to the fact that you NEED it. You can run a random dungeon on normal in 20 minutes in a group, or you can equip a super duper build DLC and complete the same dungeon IN 5 MINUTES SOLO. Feel the difference? And if you don’t buy any DLC at all, you'll just deal terrible damage. (You will be able to deal damage, but not as effectively. (It's like forcing yourself to removing all the armor in the set slot from the tank and filling it with random white gear and going to tank the HM dungeon DLC).
It's not that the monster sets are irrelevant, it's that zos (pay more, we dont care about game) balance has destroyed the game. It is impossible to assemble it properly, there are just a couple of directions of new super-strong sets and that's it. To fix this, a hard rebalance is needed again, which the extended development staff will think about. But no one needs this, leave the dying game alone. Maybe then the developers will notice that their donkey died.

And I haven't talked about pvp yet. There was only dust left from the balance.
Oops, I forgot about the arcanist. Sorry. Why do all classes and sets needed if there is an arcanist with one gear? This game is called The elder Arcanists online, yep?

Well someone is certainly feeling dramatic today.
Hot take: if all you own is base game, you don't need the latest and greatest mythic or class. Wardens have been stupid strong in pvp for years, and part of base game since 2018.

It isnt in base game since 2018, In 2020 I still needed to buy vardenfall chapter(dlc+warden class) together with greymoor(and elsweyr+summerset) to play warden, Vardenfell including warden only got added to base game in 2021.

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

Kalle_Demos wrote: »

One thing to remember about Monster Sets, Procs specifically, is that the ridiculous spell/weapon threshold restriction is still in effect. Unless you have 6,574 Weapon or Spell Damage, your proc set values are cut in half from their original values. Getting rid of this malformed 'solution' to what at the time could be boiled down to pvp whining and an unethical attempt to make Mythics, still behind paywalls, more appealing would be an excellent step in putting the 'Monster' back into Monster Sets.

1) Getting to 6500 weapon or spell damage is not that hard.

2) Even if you don't get that high, most procs still retain their usefulness.

Proc set scaling was needed, and wasn't due to "pvp whining".

Proc set scaling was definitely due to „pvp whining“, because Tanks with proc sets were not an issue in PvE or at least didnt get complained about. Proc set scaling wasnt needed and didnt prevented us from getting into a new proc meta as bad as the last one 2020/21 that lead to proc scaling. By forcing people to invest in wpn dmg it should mke it harder to build tanky when you rely on proc set dmg. But low weapon dmg doesnt mean that the player is tanky and low wpn dmg doesnt mean player is squishy, you can also get wpn dmg by group buffs(powerful assault, rallyng cry, olorhime, minor brutality/sorcery from group members in Xv1 gank group) without sacrificing tankiness or build more efficient.
Because it scales only with wpn dmg and not with max stam/mag 64 attribute points in health and orzarga insteat of sugar skulls doesnt reduce your proc dmg at all(It already scales too low for your normal dmg) allowing you to still get tanky by high hp and not need a sustain set/ juwelry glyph. Stamina stacking doesnt make you tanky but still doesnt increase your proc dmg.
Stam/mag scaling proc sets just got nerfed by introducing scaling even when they were fine/underperforming because nobody nowadays wants to 38k max mag/stam to reach prescaling values, so sets get either used with lower stats and values or not at all.
Proc sets scaling with HP forces players to build tanky by stacking HP althought the intention of scaling was to prevent players with proc sets from building tanky.
When I want to wear Cyrodiils crest/Battailon defender/ Leeching plate/Crimson Twilight/ Malubeth/Master SnB to get more healing to defend against pressure, I have to stack 45k hp to reach prescaling value and giving me defense against burst althought I wanted only defense against burst.
Almalexia shouldnt scale with max stam/mag when the set has 1x max hp and 2x resistance as setboni but with resistance.
For Master SnB not only the healing but also the resistance scales with max health. Resistance as a stat should not scale with stats, especially not with other stats like max health. A player using a resistance set wants to stack resistance and not health.

Kalle_Demos wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

Kalle_Demos wrote: »

One thing to remember about Monster Sets, Procs specifically, is that the ridiculous spell/weapon threshold restriction is still in effect. Unless you have 6,574 Weapon or Spell Damage, your proc set values are cut in half from their original values. Getting rid of this malformed 'solution' to what at the time could be boiled down to pvp whining and an unethical attempt to make Mythics, still behind paywalls, more appealing would be an excellent step in putting the 'Monster' back into Monster Sets.

1) Getting to 6500 weapon or spell damage is not that hard.

2) Even if you don't get that high, most procs still retain their usefulness.

Proc set scaling was needed, and wasn't due to "pvp whining".

1) Getting to 6,574 weapon damage is much easier than spell damage only adding more imbalance to the game.

2) With their values cut IN HALF, proc Monster Sets are not nearly as useful or fun as they were. Hence this thread and many in the past.

3) Procs were yet another victim of the heavy handed nerf hammer. And in conjunction with the dev's new pay walled favorite Mythics, a casualty of unethical business practices.

1) Since Hybridization almost all sources of wpn dmg also give spell dmg and almost all sources of spell dmg also give wpn dmg, since update 38 juwelry wpn/spell dmhglyphs do to, the only remaining non hybridized source I know is mundus stone and brutality/sorcery. Only advantage of wpn dmg is that dks giving minor brutality are more common than templars giving minor sorcery atm. You can even stack wpn dmg on mag(every dk does) or spell dm on stam(plar).

2) Values of proc sets dont get cut in half when you are lower than 6574 wpn dmg, they dynamically scale with wpn dmg now and you need 6574 wpn dmg to get pre scaling value.

finehair wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

El_Borracho wrote: »

Once upon a time, you had to play the actual game to get some of the best gear.

Wait, have I not been playing the game? Can I get 10 years worth of refunds? 😆

Couple of things to break down here;

- “Once upon s time” dungeons were much simpler, and let’s face it, easier.

- & “Once upon s time” the dungeon community (and the eso community in general) was much less toxic.

- No one can just press a button and get the latest mythic, it takes a commitment to the game.

-There is no “conflict” between mythics and monster helms. There is a boat load of monster helms to choose from. And both can be worn at the same time.

It literally took me 1 hour to get oakensoul, but I understand your point

LunaFlora wrote: »

Naftal wrote: »

While mythics do compete with item slots with monster sets sometimes, I think more often the monster set is competing with arena weapons. You can do builds with two 5-piece sets, monster and mythic.

you can only do that if you use only one piece of a monster set

You can use monsterset and mythic if you frontbar and backbar 5piece or replace second mythic with 2 arena weapons. Most PvP players use Monsterset and Mythic.

festegios

Elyu wrote: »

I think the problem lies with a lack of clear direction / purpose.

At the moment it seems monster sets and mythics are competing to provide the most tangible benefit, whereas I would say they should have different purposes entirely; monster sets to enhance a particular gameplay style, mythics to open up a completely new build option.

For example you could run a completely off-meta dd build that's purely designed to feed ultimate to your group;

This on a nord nb for max ulti generation, running Elemental Susceptibility on the backbar, and barbed trap and deadly cloak on the frontbar with 2 charged dual wield weapons, 1 running poison, 1 disease. (maybe that's overkill and you just need elemental susceptibility to proc all 3 stacks of zaudrus)

Cryptcanon Vestments
(1 item) You can no longer cast Ultimate abilities. Instead, casting an Ultimate ability transfers your Ultimate resource to your living group members, divided equally among them. Gain Minor Heroism while you are in combat.

Baron Zaudrus
1 item: Adds 548 Maximum Stamina, Adds 548 Maximum Magicka, Adds 603 Maximum Health
2 items: Applying a status effect to an enemy grants you a stack of Zaudrus's Ambition for 10 seconds, up to 3 stacks max. When you gain 3 stacks, the stacks are removed and you gain 4 Ultimate. On gaining Ultimate, you cannot gain additional stacks of Zaudrus's Ambition for 1 second.

Perfected Pillager's Profit
2 items: Adds 4% Healing Done
3 items: Gain Minor Aegis at all times, reducing your damage taken from Dungeon, Trial, and Arena Monsters by 5%.
4 items: Adds 1096 Maximum Magicka
5 items: Adds 129 Magicka Recovery, Casting an Ultimate ability while in combat grants 5% of Ultimate spent, up to a max of 20, as Ultimate to up to 11 other group members within 12 meters every 2 seconds over 10 seconds. Group members can only be affected by this set once every 45 seconds.

Sadly the vestments don’t work with sets like pillagers

Shara_Wynn

It's about time they brought in some 4 piece sets so that players can use both a mythic and a monster set. And seeing as they seem to want folk to revisit older content, that would be the place to have them drop.

Lumsdenml

Don't you get mythics from playing the game, too?

Heals_With_Orbs

I would like to to see a bit more variety with monster sets.

There's always been a big lack of decent ice dmg sets in ESO, and in general I think it could all do with big revamp

What I'd suggest is giving us the option to decide what damage type it does, by unlocking custom effects from the undaunted guys using keys, similar to how those new skill styles work.

For example

Grothdarr set currently is a fire damage set, but wouldn't it be cool to have the option for it to be frost, or lightning? Perhaps it could be done based on the type of staff equipped.

The Maw of the Infernal set that spawns a daedroth could breathe a cone of cold or a cloud of poison.

This could bring new life to a lot of unused and tired monster sets (or indeed any set) while also bring some more customisation and unique builds. I've been writing on here for a good few years about the lack of frost damage sets (and skills) and they brought out frostbite, but it still didn't really add anything, just another set that still wasn't quite as good as others that offered more damage.

ZOS_Hadeostry

Greetings,

We have closed this topic as it was last active back in September 2023. In many cases, it's better to create a new thread on a topic that you want to discuss as opposed to bumping one that is rather old.

Thank you for your understanding.