Drop the CONCEDE penalty

allenv30b14_ESO

The Concede penalty must be lifted. Who plays a card game with that nonsense. Any card game in the world you can end it and start again. How about anyone maxed out you take out the Concede penalty. This game is bad enough to have to deal with that as well. The luck factor in this game is over the top. The deck runs also should be capped.

allenv30b14_ESO

You can drop the penalty and maybe do a min 5 hand play for the option to concede...

disky

Few card games exist within the context of an MMO though, and so it makes sense that the penalty exists in order to prevent players from gaming the system. Consider that two players can repeatedly manufacture victories with no timeout in place. Your frustration is understandable but there are people who would abuse the rules if it weren't there.

Northwold

jbarnhill1b14_ESO wrote: »

Few card games exist within the context of an MMO though, and so it makes sense that the penalty exists in order to prevent players from gaming the system. Consider that two players can repeatedly manufacture victories with no timeout in place. Your frustration is understandable but there are people who would abuse the rules if it weren't there.

That's what cheat detection systems are for, though. There's a difference between two friends playing and two friends conceding to each other over and over again. Frankly, if players want to game the system they can do it pretty quickly by constantly ending turn without playing anything while allowing the other to rack up power anyway.

rbfrgsp

Also pretty irrelevant in unranked. I see the reasoning for a cooldown in ranked. It can stay as far as I'm concerned. But unranked is there for friendly, casual, FUN games of ToT.

What sort of psycho would force their friend to play on to the very last card in a friendly game they were 100% sure to lose?

AnduinTryggva

jbarnhill1b14_ESO wrote: »

Few card games exist within the context of an MMO though, and so it makes sense that the penalty exists in order to prevent players from gaming the system. Consider that two players can repeatedly manufacture victories with no timeout in place. Your frustration is understandable but there are people who would abuse the rules if it weren't there.

So collectively punish all players for the few who abuse it?

ESO_player123

jbarnhill1b14_ESO wrote: »

Few card games exist within the context of an MMO though, and so it makes sense that the penalty exists in order to prevent players from gaming the system. Consider that two players can repeatedly manufacture victories with no timeout in place. Your frustration is understandable but there are people who would abuse the rules if it weren't there.

I think that could only happen if one players challenges another directly like for a duel (that can be done, right?) The solution then could be to keep the penalty for those cases and drop for the rest.

Necrotech_Master

ESO_player123 wrote: »

jbarnhill1b14_ESO wrote: »

Few card games exist within the context of an MMO though, and so it makes sense that the penalty exists in order to prevent players from gaming the system. Consider that two players can repeatedly manufacture victories with no timeout in place. Your frustration is understandable but there are people who would abuse the rules if it weren't there.

I think that could only happen if one players challenges another directly like for a duel (that can be done, right?) The solution then could be to keep the penalty for those cases and drop for the rest.

you can "tribute duel" people, but like normal dueling, there are no rewards involved (there is also not even a turn timer in a tribute duel)

for the queued pvp tribute, theres no guarantee you will be matched up against the same player, and you forfeit all rewards when you concede (you only get the defeat box if you finish the game to conclusion)

ESO_player123

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

ESO_player123 wrote: »

jbarnhill1b14_ESO wrote: »

Few card games exist within the context of an MMO though, and so it makes sense that the penalty exists in order to prevent players from gaming the system. Consider that two players can repeatedly manufacture victories with no timeout in place. Your frustration is understandable but there are people who would abuse the rules if it weren't there.

I think that could only happen if one players challenges another directly like for a duel (that can be done, right?) The solution then could be to keep the penalty for those cases and drop for the rest.

you can "tribute duel" people, but like normal dueling, there are no rewards involved (there is also not even a turn timer in a tribute duel)

for the queued pvp tribute, theres no guarantee you will be matched up against the same player, and you forfeit all rewards when you concede (you only get the defeat box if you finish the game to conclusion)

Yes, that is what I was talking about. So, that reasoning for keeping the penalty does not hold water.

the1andonlyskwex

ESO_player123 wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

ESO_player123 wrote: »

jbarnhill1b14_ESO wrote: »

Few card games exist within the context of an MMO though, and so it makes sense that the penalty exists in order to prevent players from gaming the system. Consider that two players can repeatedly manufacture victories with no timeout in place. Your frustration is understandable but there are people who would abuse the rules if it weren't there.

I think that could only happen if one players challenges another directly like for a duel (that can be done, right?) The solution then could be to keep the penalty for those cases and drop for the rest.

you can "tribute duel" people, but like normal dueling, there are no rewards involved (there is also not even a turn timer in a tribute duel)

for the queued pvp tribute, theres no guarantee you will be matched up against the same player, and you forfeit all rewards when you concede (you only get the defeat box if you finish the game to conclusion)

Yes, that is what I was talking about. So, that reasoning for keeping the penalty does not hold water.

There are other games where even in random queues people concede to trade quick wins. It requires some significant number of players to participate in the scheme, but it's probably not as many as you would think. Without a cooldown it could easily be faster to get 3 wins from 20 matches with first turn concessions (that means you're conceding in 17/20 matches to account for people who just want to play normally) than it would be to play and win 3 games properly. All it takes is for there to be some sort of random condition that determines who should concede, and enough participants in the scheme to make it faster than playing normally (accounting for extra concessions when your opponent isn't participating and you concede to move on to an opponent who is).

ESO_player123

the1andonlyskwex wrote: »

ESO_player123 wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

ESO_player123 wrote: »

jbarnhill1b14_ESO wrote: »

Few card games exist within the context of an MMO though, and so it makes sense that the penalty exists in order to prevent players from gaming the system. Consider that two players can repeatedly manufacture victories with no timeout in place. Your frustration is understandable but there are people who would abuse the rules if it weren't there.

I think that could only happen if one players challenges another directly like for a duel (that can be done, right?) The solution then could be to keep the penalty for those cases and drop for the rest.

you can "tribute duel" people, but like normal dueling, there are no rewards involved (there is also not even a turn timer in a tribute duel)

for the queued pvp tribute, theres no guarantee you will be matched up against the same player, and you forfeit all rewards when you concede (you only get the defeat box if you finish the game to conclusion)

Yes, that is what I was talking about. So, that reasoning for keeping the penalty does not hold water.

There are other games where even in random queues people concede to trade quick wins. It requires some significant number of players to participate in the scheme, but it's probably not as many as you would think. Without a cooldown it could easily be faster to get 3 wins from 20 matches with first turn concessions (that means you're conceding in 17/20 matches to account for people who just want to play normally) than it would be to play and win 3 games properly. All it takes is for there to be some sort of random condition that determines who should concede, and enough participants in the scheme to make it faster than playing normally (accounting for extra concessions when your opponent isn't participating and you concede to move on to an opponent who is).

Who would bother to do this for ToT (to conspire with multiple other players I mean). The rewards are simply not worth the trouble.

bulbousb16_ESO

Conceding is for quitters!

sayswhoto

They should at least look into lowering the time to allow for a concede without a penalty. Even 1-2 minutes would help.

It's frustrating to know you are going to lose just to sit there watching your opponents cycle through their entire deck and unleash multiple combos. The way ToT seems to be playing out right now is that a few good card pick ups and the game can quickly spiral out of control. Here's one example just for turn 1:

• Hlaalu one gold card on Turn 1 with the option to buy two Kwama or Ebony Egg Mines. This can generate 9+ gold on Turn 1.

Daoin

this is no ordinary card game though its the ESO one, and you cannot without a penalty just like we cant leave dungeon groups without one. no matter the reason for needing to leave

ESO_player123

Daoin wrote: »

this is no ordinary card game though its the ESO one, and you cannot without a penalty just like we cant leave dungeon groups without one. no matter the reason for needing to leave

The reason there is a penalty for leaving a dungeon is that without that person the rest of the group might not be able to finish it and thus lose the reward they were hoping to get while queuing. In ToT the other person still gets the reward (and the conceding one gets nothing as it should be).

AnduinTryggva

The concede penalty is the most futile and useless measure implemented by ZOS to prevent expoiting the rank system.

It is just PLAIN STUPID.

I understand it is difficult to accept that at a time one has taken a decision that prooved itself just a waste.

But I like to appeal to the customer service mind set if it exist to just remove it as it is not doing what it was supposed to do but proved to be just an annoyance to customers.

bulbousb16_ESO

AnduinTryggva wrote: »

It is just PLAIN STUPID.

How about you explain why you feel this way? On it's face, a penalty to conceding a match seems like a good idea. Play if you want to, don't play if you don't want to, but don't pull the plug on people.

ESO_player123

bulbousb16_ESO wrote: »

AnduinTryggva wrote: »

It is just PLAIN STUPID.

How about you explain why you feel this way? On it's face, a penalty to conceding a match seems like a good idea. Play if you want to, don't play if you don't want to, but don't pull the plug on people.

If your concern is "pulling the plug on people", players still can do it in two ways:
1. Concede when they feel like and get the penalty then switch to another toon to play immediately again (the penalty is only for the toon that conceded).
2. Play until the moment conceding does not incur penalty any more and "pull the plug" then.

spartaxoxo

ESO_player123 wrote: »

bulbousb16_ESO wrote: »

AnduinTryggva wrote: »

It is just PLAIN STUPID.

How about you explain why you feel this way? On it's face, a penalty to conceding a match seems like a good idea. Play if you want to, don't play if you don't want to, but don't pull the plug on people.

If your concern is "pulling the plug on people", players still can do it in two ways:
1. Concede when they feel like and get the penalty then switch to another toon to play immediately again (the penalty is only for the toon that conceded).
2. Play until the moment conceding does not incur penalty any more and "pull the plug" then.

Number 2 might actually end up being better because then people would be incentivized to at least try to turn a poor starting tavern around in subsequent hands.

But, honestly I'd also be in favor of it being removed entirely at this point. Either cutting the time until you can concede significantly or removing the penalty would be okay with me. I just don't think the penalty should be what it currently is.

Necrotech_Master

spartaxoxo wrote: »

ESO_player123 wrote: »

bulbousb16_ESO wrote: »

AnduinTryggva wrote: »

It is just PLAIN STUPID.

How about you explain why you feel this way? On it's face, a penalty to conceding a match seems like a good idea. Play if you want to, don't play if you don't want to, but don't pull the plug on people.

If your concern is "pulling the plug on people", players still can do it in two ways:
1. Concede when they feel like and get the penalty then switch to another toon to play immediately again (the penalty is only for the toon that conceded).
2. Play until the moment conceding does not incur penalty any more and "pull the plug" then.

Number 2 might actually end up being better because then people would be incentivized to at least try to turn a poor starting tavern around in subsequent hands.

But, honestly I'd also be in favor of it being removed entirely at this point. Either cutting the time until you can concede significantly or removing the penalty would be okay with me. I just don't think the penalty should be what it currently is.

im pretty sure #2 is how it works already

it definitely works that way for dungeon queues, after i load in from a queued dungeon, when i open the party menu and its still on the dungeon queue tab, it will show the 15 min countdown timer

so if your dungeon takes longer than 15 min, and then you leave, you shouldnt have a queue timer to re-queue

though in many cases normals can finish faster than 15 minutes, and completing the dungeon clears the timer anyway

im assuming its the same with tribute, you get locked in the timer as soon as the ready check succeeds, but as most people who want to concede usually do so within the first 5 minutes of a match, they still have to sit with the timer because they did not complete the activity (the devs are treating concession as the same as quitting a dungeon run)

ESO_player123

spartaxoxo wrote: »

ESO_player123 wrote: »

bulbousb16_ESO wrote: »

AnduinTryggva wrote: »

It is just PLAIN STUPID.

How about you explain why you feel this way? On it's face, a penalty to conceding a match seems like a good idea. Play if you want to, don't play if you don't want to, but don't pull the plug on people.

If your concern is "pulling the plug on people", players still can do it in two ways:
1. Concede when they feel like and get the penalty then switch to another toon to play immediately again (the penalty is only for the toon that conceded).
2. Play until the moment conceding does not incur penalty any more and "pull the plug" then.

Number 2 might actually end up being better because then people would be incentivized to at least try to turn a poor starting tavern around in subsequent hands.

But, honestly I'd also be in favor of it being removed entirely at this point. Either cutting the time until you can concede significantly or removing the penalty would be okay with me. I just don't think the penalty should be what it currently is.

I'm not sure what you mean by "Number 2 might actually end up being better". It's not a proposition, it's how it is working NOW, in live game. I'm not sure how long you have to play a match till the concede option becomes free, but in most cases a player realizes that the game is not salvageable before that moment arrives.

spartaxoxo

ESO_player123 wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

ESO_player123 wrote: »

bulbousb16_ESO wrote: »

AnduinTryggva wrote: »

It is just PLAIN STUPID.

How about you explain why you feel this way? On it's face, a penalty to conceding a match seems like a good idea. Play if you want to, don't play if you don't want to, but don't pull the plug on people.

If your concern is "pulling the plug on people", players still can do it in two ways:
1. Concede when they feel like and get the penalty then switch to another toon to play immediately again (the penalty is only for the toon that conceded).
2. Play until the moment conceding does not incur penalty any more and "pull the plug" then.

Number 2 might actually end up being better because then people would be incentivized to at least try to turn a poor starting tavern around in subsequent hands.

But, honestly I'd also be in favor of it being removed entirely at this point. Either cutting the time until you can concede significantly or removing the penalty would be okay with me. I just don't think the penalty should be what it currently is.

I'm not sure what you mean by "Number 2 might actually end up being better". It's not a proposition, it's how it is working NOW, in live game. I'm not sure how long you have to play a match till the concede option becomes free, but in most cases a player realizes that the game is not salvageable before that moment arrives.

I'm saying keep it like number 2 but reduce the time it takes. The current timer is so long that there is often effectively no wait timer for the match.

ESO_player123

spartaxoxo wrote: »

ESO_player123 wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

ESO_player123 wrote: »

bulbousb16_ESO wrote: »

AnduinTryggva wrote: »

It is just PLAIN STUPID.

How about you explain why you feel this way? On it's face, a penalty to conceding a match seems like a good idea. Play if you want to, don't play if you don't want to, but don't pull the plug on people.

If your concern is "pulling the plug on people", players still can do it in two ways:
1. Concede when they feel like and get the penalty then switch to another toon to play immediately again (the penalty is only for the toon that conceded).
2. Play until the moment conceding does not incur penalty any more and "pull the plug" then.

Number 2 might actually end up being better because then people would be incentivized to at least try to turn a poor starting tavern around in subsequent hands.

But, honestly I'd also be in favor of it being removed entirely at this point. Either cutting the time until you can concede significantly or removing the penalty would be okay with me. I just don't think the penalty should be what it currently is.

I'm not sure what you mean by "Number 2 might actually end up being better". It's not a proposition, it's how it is working NOW, in live game. I'm not sure how long you have to play a match till the concede option becomes free, but in most cases a player realizes that the game is not salvageable before that moment arrives.

I'm saying keep it like number 2 but reduce the time it takes. The current timer is so long that there is often effectively no wait timer for the match.

Yes, with that I agree. I would prefer no penalty at all, but if it's there to stay this I think would be the way to go.

bulbousb16_ESO

ESO_player123 wrote: »

I would prefer no penalty at all, but if it's there to stay this I think would be the way to go.

Why do you "prefer no penalty"? What makes you think that you should just have the right to quit a game on a human opponent? The game should not reward bad behaviour.

ESO_player123

bulbousb16_ESO wrote: »

ESO_player123 wrote: »

I would prefer no penalty at all, but if it's there to stay this I think would be the way to go.

Why do you "prefer no penalty"? What makes you think that you should just have the right to quit a game on a human opponent? The game should not reward bad behaviour.

Concede means "I agree that you won, and I lost". Here is your reward, I get nothing.
Conceding exists in chess - a game that does not have an RNG component like ToT where a game can go south sometimes from the first hand.

Also, players can already concede right away, switch toons and continue without a time penalty. Conceding also becomes free after some (longish) period of time passes in a match. As some people pointed out, it's often quite clear that the game is lost before that time passes. So, may be shortening that period of time could be a better solution.

bulbousb16_ESO

ESO_player123 wrote: »

Also, players can already concede right away, switch toons and continue without a time penalty. Conceding also becomes free after some (longish) period of time passes in a match.

Just because there is an exploit for the penalty doesn't mean it should go away entirely. But, if you want to alter the penalty, how about a ranking penalization as opposed to a lockout?

Personofsecrets

bulbousb16_ESO wrote: »

ESO_player123 wrote: »

Also, players can already concede right away, switch toons and continue without a time penalty. Conceding also becomes free after some (longish) period of time passes in a match.

Just because there is an exploit for the penalty doesn't mean it should go away entirely. But, if you want to alter the penalty, how about a ranking penalization as opposed to a lockout?

There already is ranking penalization. Though, quite honestly, if a game is so easily decided to the point that someone should quit within the first 5 turns, then it is probably wrong to assume that anything parallel to skill was that important of a game factor.

ESO_player123

bulbousb16_ESO wrote: »

ESO_player123 wrote: »

Also, players can already concede right away, switch toons and continue without a time penalty. Conceding also becomes free after some (longish) period of time passes in a match.

Just because there is an exploit for the penalty doesn't mean it should go away entirely. But, if you want to alter the penalty, how about a ranking penalization as opposed to a lockout?

I do not play ranked anymore, so you would need to address this to those players that still do. (Well, I still technically play ranked a bit, but only at the start of the season to get the initial rewards. Once I reach rubedite rank, I switch to casual.)
So, I was mostly advocating for adjusting the penalty in the casual play.

loosej

The penalty is removed if the game has lasted for at least 10 minutes. At least it was last I checked, haven't tried since yesterday's patch but no reason to assume that has changed. But it's annoying the game doesn't show how long a match has lasted, you need an addon for that.

bulbousb16_ESO

Personofsecrets wrote: »

There already is ranking penalization. Though, quite honestly, if a game is so easily decided to the point that someone should quit within the first 5 turns, then it is probably wrong to assume that anything parallel to skill was that important of a game factor.

Who judges that, though? The problem here is players that will pull the plug because they don't like their opening hand. If they want to quit, fine, but they should suffer a penalty over and above just taking a loss.

Personofsecrets

bulbousb16_ESO wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

There already is ranking penalization. Though, quite honestly, if a game is so easily decided to the point that someone should quit within the first 5 turns, then it is probably wrong to assume that anything parallel to skill was that important of a game factor.

Who judges that, though? The problem here is players that will pull the plug because they don't like their opening hand. If they want to quit, fine, but they should suffer a penalty over and above just taking a loss.

There is nothing on the line with TOT and players are quitting due to imbalances inherent to the game that designers are not addressing. It's not right to punish people further than the loss that they already were unfortunate to incur.