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Maarselok is totally not op
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CameraBeardThePirate✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭techprince wrote: »techprince wrote: »techprince wrote: »Seriously, just make battlegrounds no-proc no-cp already.
Absolutely not. I don’t enjoy IC and Cyro as much as I’d like to because theres no no-cp proc anymore.
Vat Ice Staff + DW + Maarselok abuser spotted.
Nope. I use 0 of those.
Then it shouldn't matter.
You're being difficult. Just because someone doesn't use the 3 meta procs doesn’t mean they enjoy no-proc. The list of sets that function in No-Proc is laughably small. Sets that should work there don't, and sets that shouldn't do. ZOS couldn't possibly care less about no-proc and still doesn't offer a single up-to-date list on what sets work in that environment, nor have they shown any desire to fix which sets should/shouldn't work there.
No-proc was a failed experiment.4 -
TybaltKaine✭✭✭✭✭
✭Feel like the simplest fix for Maarselok is to cap the extra damage at 150 vs 300 (effectively making it only count 15 debuffs), have it only count for your debuffs and increase the cooldown to 25 seconds to bring it in line with Dark Convergence and Plaguebreak as similarly overpowered (though varying in utility since they are group dependent vs single target burst) sets.
The core issue is the cooldown on the burst, which I agree is a problem, and after having tested and run against it a bit (I never really bothered to pay attention to it before) I can see how it can be a frustrating set to defend against.
There are only a couple of sets that can defend against it effectively - Mara's Balm, Stendarr's Embrace, and Earthgore (which is situational) and it's very easy to use other sets to increase its efficiency (Kynmarcher's Cruelty, Swamp Raider, Affliction, Morag Tong).
I get the complaints.Edited by TybaltKaine on 10 July 2023 14:37- Tybalt Kaine Khajiit Nightblade Aldmeri Dominion
- PC/NA
- Guildmaster- Lucky Raven
- Knight of Marrow - Blackfeather Academy
- Adepti- The Witches Goblet
- "Nightblade healer huh? How does that work?"
- "I drain the blood of our enemies and fire it into you. It's a lot less messy than it sounds, and yeah I'm basically a Vampire without the whole AGH FIRE BAD"
2 -
techprince✭✭✭✭✭CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »techprince wrote: »techprince wrote: »techprince wrote: »Seriously, just make battlegrounds no-proc no-cp already.
Absolutely not. I don’t enjoy IC and Cyro as much as I’d like to because theres no no-cp proc anymore.
Vat Ice Staff + DW + Maarselok abuser spotted.
Nope. I use 0 of those.
Then it shouldn't matter.
You're being difficult. Just because someone doesn't use the 3 meta procs doesn’t mean they enjoy no-proc. The list of sets that function in No-Proc is laughably small. Sets that should work there don't, and sets that shouldn't do. ZOS couldn't possibly care less about no-proc and still doesn't offer a single up-to-date list on what sets work in that environment, nor have they shown any desire to fix which sets should/shouldn't work there.
No-proc was a failed experiment.
No proc was so popular that they made it permanent. Proc sets are and always will be a problem simply because PvE and PvP are not balanced seperately.0 -
CameraBeardThePirate✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭techprince wrote: »CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »techprince wrote: »techprince wrote: »techprince wrote: »Seriously, just make battlegrounds no-proc no-cp already.
Absolutely not. I don’t enjoy IC and Cyro as much as I’d like to because theres no no-cp proc anymore.
Vat Ice Staff + DW + Maarselok abuser spotted.
Nope. I use 0 of those.
Then it shouldn't matter.
You're being difficult. Just because someone doesn't use the 3 meta procs doesn’t mean they enjoy no-proc. The list of sets that function in No-Proc is laughably small. Sets that should work there don't, and sets that shouldn't do. ZOS couldn't possibly care less about no-proc and still doesn't offer a single up-to-date list on what sets work in that environment, nor have they shown any desire to fix which sets should/shouldn't work there.
No-proc was a failed experiment.
No proc was so popular that they made it permanent. Proc sets are and always will be a problem simply because PvE and PvP are not balanced seperately.
So popular that it's almost always at 1 or 2 bars. Wow!7 -
CameraBeardThePirate✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭TybaltKaine wrote: »Feel like the simplest fix for Maarselok is to cap the extra damage at 150 vs 300 (effectively making it only count 15 debuffs), have it only count for your debuffs and increase the cooldown to 25 seconds to bring it in line with Dark Convergence and Plaguebreak as similarly overpowered (though varying in utility since they are group dependent vs single target burst) sets.
The core issue is the cooldown on the burst, which I agree is a problem, and after having tested and run against it a bit (I never really bothered to pay attention to it before) I can see how it can be a frustrating set to defend against.
There are only a couple of sets that can defend against it effectively - Mara's Balm, Stendarr's Embrace, and Earthgore (which is situational) and it's very easy to use other sets to increase its efficiency (Kynmarcher's Cruelty, Swamp Raider, Affliction, Morag Tong).
I get the complaints.
This would dumpster the set. Cutting the damage in half and tripling the cooldown would be another Chainsaw approach to nerfs. Just increase the cooldown to 15 seconds or so. Anymore would make the set worthless.
Besides, the reason the set is overperforming at the moment is mostly due to how insanely good Ele Sus is. Applying 4 debuffs with a free cast is kinda crazy.Edited by CameraBeardThePirate on 10 July 2023 15:224 -
Dagoth_Rac✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭TybaltKaine wrote: »and it's very easy to use other sets to increase its efficiency (Kynmarcher's Cruelty, Swamp Raider, Affliction, Morag Tong).
Does Swamp Raider buff Maarsalok? Maarselok is disease damage and it does scale off weapon and spell damage, but is it an "ability"? I had always assumed these by-damage-type sets like Swamp Raider or War Maiden would not buff set procs, only stuff that you directly activate from your skill bar. But I never tested that.
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Galeriano✭✭✭✭✭
✭techprince wrote: »I'm not really sure I completely agree your point of view. From what I see it hits for about 3k when fully buffed in a burst combo. Any skill/proc will hit hard when the user performs their intended attack combo. So in this case they probably put a lot of effects on you (which admittedly IS pretty easy), buffed up, and then performed a heavy weave into a skill. In the end it looks like it hit about as hard as an ultimate but spread out over 4 seconds.
I guess you could maybe argue that the cooldown could be a tad longer, say maybe 15 seconds. At least then they be forced to wait a bit for their next burst rather than going right back into the rotation immediately.
Its 3K per second for 4 seconds. Thats alot for a proc set.
It's 3k per sec only if You have like 20+ negative effects active on You when being hit by it.0 -
CameraBeardThePirate✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Dagoth_Rac wrote: »TybaltKaine wrote: »and it's very easy to use other sets to increase its efficiency (Kynmarcher's Cruelty, Swamp Raider, Affliction, Morag Tong).
Does Swamp Raider buff Maarsalok? Maarselok is disease damage and it does scale off weapon and spell damage, but is it an "ability"? I had always assumed these by-damage-type sets like Swamp Raider or War Maiden would not buff set procs, only stuff that you directly activate from your skill bar. But I never tested that.
I don't know the wording of those sets off the top of my head, but sets usually have different wordings for "Abilities" and "Damaging Effects". The former only counts for abilities (and I believe light and heavies as well) while the latter counts for everything.0 -
techprince✭✭✭✭✭techprince wrote: »I'm not really sure I completely agree your point of view. From what I see it hits for about 3k when fully buffed in a burst combo. Any skill/proc will hit hard when the user performs their intended attack combo. So in this case they probably put a lot of effects on you (which admittedly IS pretty easy), buffed up, and then performed a heavy weave into a skill. In the end it looks like it hit about as hard as an ultimate but spread out over 4 seconds.
I guess you could maybe argue that the cooldown could be a tad longer, say maybe 15 seconds. At least then they be forced to wait a bit for their next burst rather than going right back into the rotation immediately.
Its 3K per second for 4 seconds. Thats alot for a proc set.
It's 3k per sec only if You have like 20+ negative effects active on You when being hit by it.
Not true. I had 12-15.0 -
TybaltKaine✭✭✭✭✭
✭Dagoth_Rac wrote: »
Does Swamp Raider buff Maarsalok? Maarselok is disease damage and it does scale off weapon and spell damage, but is it an "ability"? I had always assumed these by-damage-type sets like Swamp Raider or War Maiden would not buff set procs, only stuff that you directly activate from your skill bar. But I never tested that.
No. Had a scrambled egg brain moment (TBI's will do that). It's only for abilities.- Tybalt Kaine Khajiit Nightblade Aldmeri Dominion
- PC/NA
- Guildmaster- Lucky Raven
- Knight of Marrow - Blackfeather Academy
- Adepti- The Witches Goblet
- "Nightblade healer huh? How does that work?"
- "I drain the blood of our enemies and fire it into you. It's a lot less messy than it sounds, and yeah I'm basically a Vampire without the whole AGH FIRE BAD"
0 -
HiImRex✭✭✭✭✭Maarselok is probably the strongest offensive monster set at the moment but the reason you’re being crushed in BGs are probably more to do with your build, positioning, and timing.
People play maarselok + vat ele + dw not only because it’s strong but because it’s basically the only way to make TTK bearable in the current meta.
Let’s nerf the meta offensive set up. Ok now what. The next best thing is probably balorgh which is miles behind maaeselok. There’s no equivalent to dw/rending/vat ele that can make up the lost dps.
The thing is you still have tanky brawler builds that can tank and spank vs the maarselok/vat ele set ups. So now we go from having two options (tanky brawler, meta full offensive procs) down to one.
If you dont simultaneaouly nerf survivability and you nerf the only offensive set up that can force actual reactions out of players and teams that build tanky and healy, the combat experience gets worse not better.
Also at this stage of ESO like 10 years old with every meta set up available on YouTube calling people vat ele / maarselok “abusers” is hilarious.
How are you still playing ESO refusing to adapt to the meta using suboptimal sets and call people who use good sets abusers?
You either play the game that exists in reality or you’re playing the game that only exists in your head.4 -
techprince✭✭✭✭✭Maarselok is probably the strongest offensive monster set at the moment but the reason you’re being crushed in BGs are probably more to do with your build, positioning, and timing.
People play maarselok + vat ele + dw not only because it’s strong but because it’s basically the only way to make TTK bearable in the current meta.
Let’s nerf the meta offensive set up. Ok now what. The next best thing is probably balorgh which is miles behind maaeselok. There’s no equivalent to dw/rending/vat ele that can make up the lost dps.
The thing is you still have tanky brawler builds that can tank and spank vs the maarselok/vat ele set ups. So now we go from having two options (tanky brawler, meta full offensive procs) down to one.
If you dont simultaneaouly nerf survivability and you nerf the only offensive set up that can force actual reactions out of players and teams that build tanky and healy, the combat experience gets worse not better.
Also at this stage of ESO like 10 years old with every meta set up available on YouTube calling people vat ele / maarselok “abusers” is hilarious.
How are you still playing ESO refusing to adapt to the meta using suboptimal sets and call people who use good sets abusers?
You either play the game that exists in reality or you’re playing the game that only exists in your head.
And who said i am not using it myself? i am both on the using side and receiving side.
And you contradicted yourself. Do you know what "meta" actually means? The only set that was keeping this under control was pre-nerf Mara. One "over performing" set to counter another "over performing" set.Edited by techprince on 10 July 2023 18:302 -
techprince✭✭✭✭✭CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »techprince wrote: »CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »techprince wrote: »techprince wrote: »techprince wrote: »Seriously, just make battlegrounds no-proc no-cp already.
Absolutely not. I don’t enjoy IC and Cyro as much as I’d like to because theres no no-cp proc anymore.
Vat Ice Staff + DW + Maarselok abuser spotted.
Nope. I use 0 of those.
Then it shouldn't matter.
You're being difficult. Just because someone doesn't use the 3 meta procs doesn’t mean they enjoy no-proc. The list of sets that function in No-Proc is laughably small. Sets that should work there don't, and sets that shouldn't do. ZOS couldn't possibly care less about no-proc and still doesn't offer a single up-to-date list on what sets work in that environment, nor have they shown any desire to fix which sets should/shouldn't work there.
No-proc was a failed experiment.
No proc was so popular that they made it permanent. Proc sets are and always will be a problem simply because PvE and PvP are not balanced seperately.
So popular that it's almost always at 1 or 2 bars. Wow!
The campaign is popular. IC is not. Maybe its not popular on your platform but it gets pop locked in PC.0 -
CameraBeardThePirate✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭techprince wrote: »CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »techprince wrote: »CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »techprince wrote: »techprince wrote: »techprince wrote: »Seriously, just make battlegrounds no-proc no-cp already.
Absolutely not. I don’t enjoy IC and Cyro as much as I’d like to because theres no no-cp proc anymore.
Vat Ice Staff + DW + Maarselok abuser spotted.
Nope. I use 0 of those.
Then it shouldn't matter.
You're being difficult. Just because someone doesn't use the 3 meta procs doesn’t mean they enjoy no-proc. The list of sets that function in No-Proc is laughably small. Sets that should work there don't, and sets that shouldn't do. ZOS couldn't possibly care less about no-proc and still doesn't offer a single up-to-date list on what sets work in that environment, nor have they shown any desire to fix which sets should/shouldn't work there.
No-proc was a failed experiment.
No proc was so popular that they made it permanent. Proc sets are and always will be a problem simply because PvE and PvP are not balanced seperately.
So popular that it's almost always at 1 or 2 bars. Wow!
The campaign is popular. IC is not. Maybe its not popular on your platform but it gets pop locked in PC.
I am PC NA, and no-proc Cyrodiil almost never goes above 2 bars.0 -
Reverb✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭techprince wrote: »CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »techprince wrote: »techprince wrote: »techprince wrote: »Seriously, just make battlegrounds no-proc no-cp already.
Absolutely not. I don’t enjoy IC and Cyro as much as I’d like to because theres no no-cp proc anymore.
Vat Ice Staff + DW + Maarselok abuser spotted.
Nope. I use 0 of those.
Then it shouldn't matter.
You're being difficult. Just because someone doesn't use the 3 meta procs doesn’t mean they enjoy no-proc. The list of sets that function in No-Proc is laughably small. Sets that should work there don't, and sets that shouldn't do. ZOS couldn't possibly care less about no-proc and still doesn't offer a single up-to-date list on what sets work in that environment, nor have they shown any desire to fix which sets should/shouldn't work there.
No-proc was a failed experiment.
No proc was so popular that they made it permanent. Proc sets are and always will be a problem simply because PvE and PvP are not balanced seperately.
Not really. When they tested no proc in the main campaign, players gave feedback that it was fun and they would consider playing like that more often. Zeni said “great, we’re adding the ‘no proc’ rules to the Non-CP campaign, permanently”.
And it failed, because people interested in no-proc didn’t want it to be combined with no-CP, and people who’d previously been passionate about non-cp pvp suddenly had lost functionality of most of their sets.
What Zeni implemented wasn’t what was tested and wasn’t what anybody asked for. The non-cp campaign had always had a moderate and consistent population that plummeted when no-proc was brought in, and it has been a 1-bar camp ever since.Battle not with monsters, lest ye become a monster, and if you gaze into the abyss, the abyss gazes also into you. ~Friedrich Nietzsche2 -
techprince✭✭✭✭✭CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »techprince wrote: »CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »techprince wrote: »CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »techprince wrote: »techprince wrote: »techprince wrote: »Seriously, just make battlegrounds no-proc no-cp already.
Absolutely not. I don’t enjoy IC and Cyro as much as I’d like to because theres no no-cp proc anymore.
Vat Ice Staff + DW + Maarselok abuser spotted.
Nope. I use 0 of those.
Then it shouldn't matter.
You're being difficult. Just because someone doesn't use the 3 meta procs doesn’t mean they enjoy no-proc. The list of sets that function in No-Proc is laughably small. Sets that should work there don't, and sets that shouldn't do. ZOS couldn't possibly care less about no-proc and still doesn't offer a single up-to-date list on what sets work in that environment, nor have they shown any desire to fix which sets should/shouldn't work there.
No-proc was a failed experiment.
No proc was so popular that they made it permanent. Proc sets are and always will be a problem simply because PvE and PvP are not balanced seperately.
So popular that it's almost always at 1 or 2 bars. Wow!
The campaign is popular. IC is not. Maybe its not popular on your platform but it gets pop locked in PC.
I am PC NA, and no-proc Cyrodiil almost never goes above 2 bars.
PC-EU, it was pop locked just a day before.Edited by techprince on 13 July 2023 19:100 -
Twig_Garlicshine✭✭✭✭CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »techprince wrote: »CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »techprince wrote: »CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »techprince wrote: »techprince wrote: »techprince wrote: »Seriously, just make battlegrounds no-proc no-cp already.
Absolutely not. I don’t enjoy IC and Cyro as much as I’d like to because theres no no-cp proc anymore.
Vat Ice Staff + DW + Maarselok abuser spotted.
Nope. I use 0 of those.
Then it shouldn't matter.
You're being difficult. Just because someone doesn't use the 3 meta procs doesn’t mean they enjoy no-proc. The list of sets that function in No-Proc is laughably small. Sets that should work there don't, and sets that shouldn't do. ZOS couldn't possibly care less about no-proc and still doesn't offer a single up-to-date list on what sets work in that environment, nor have they shown any desire to fix which sets should/shouldn't work there.
No-proc was a failed experiment.
No proc was so popular that they made it permanent. Proc sets are and always will be a problem simply because PvE and PvP are not balanced seperately.
So popular that it's almost always at 1 or 2 bars. Wow!
The campaign is popular. IC is not. Maybe its not popular on your platform but it gets pop locked in PC.
I am PC NA, and no-proc Cyrodiil almost never goes above 2 bars.
PC-NA no proc Cyro --only-- pop locks for yellow.
Red/blue ghost towns except for a few small mans mostly fighting each other, or trying to irritate or avoid the big yellow Spongebob, .0 -
DrNukenstein✭✭✭✭✭This is probably a candidate for the double or half treatment. I'd argue it should be left alone.
It's the last of the great procs. Powerful effects that appear as their own thing on a recap (not like little metaboy masters dw nonsense) and can define a builds win condition.
If it could somehow only track your debuffs without making the servers collapse, that would be a good correction. I mean, its only this much damage (over 4 seconds) in small pvp, but it's THAT much damage (with 40% up time) in big PVE0 -
boi_anachronism_✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I mean the set could be toned down for sure. Im in no way a good pvper bu i definitely still want to keep procs. Balancing does need to happen. There just arent enough viable builds0 -
Vaqual✭✭✭✭✭I think problem has two roots:
1. Damage is balanced around the fact that it can not crit. This is generally fair, but gives it a natural edge in PvP, it basically bypasses the baseline crit resist that way and you are not bound to crit stat investments.
2. Ele sus being a ridiculous ability and singlehandedly providing up to 5 debuffs on demand for synergy, which also provide further damage multipliers by themselves. Of course an ability that scales with debuffs will overperform under these circumstances. Ele sus is just dumb, for so many reasons.
Edited by Vaqual on 26 September 2023 00:321 -
xylena_lazarow✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Non issue. You see the giant blue flame, you have plenty of chance to turtle even if you get stunned, this isn't the non-telegraphed random instant 15k Skoria procs of 2015. Maarselok is good but hardly clear BIS for pressure builds, I'd rather have Roksa on my open world dot Arc, and I'd rather have Zaan for 1v1.PC/NA || CP/Cyro || RIP soft caps0 -
techprince✭✭✭✭✭xylena_lazarow wrote: »Non issue. You see the giant blue flame, you have plenty of chance to turtle even if you get stunned, this isn't the non-telegraphed random instant 15k Skoria procs of 2015. Maarselok is good but hardly clear BIS for pressure builds, I'd rather have Roksa on my open world dot Arc, and I'd rather have Zaan for 1v1.
Oh really? proc set doing more damage than the ultimate?
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xylena_lazarow✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭
1) thats 4 ticks over 4 seconds not instant burst, if you think that's comparable I have an Alessia Bridge to sell youtechprince wrote: »Oh really? proc set doing more damage than the ultimate?
2) nobody is dying to Maarselok in isolation, it doesn't carry builds on its own, you need to build properly for it
3) you ate a telegraphed long setup combo from the worst class in the game, that's just being outplayedPC/NA || CP/Cyro || RIP soft caps3 -
techprince✭✭✭✭✭xylena_lazarow wrote: »
1) thats 4 ticks over 4 seconds not instant burst, if you think that's comparable I have an Alessia Bridge to sell youtechprince wrote: »Oh really? proc set doing more damage than the ultimate?
2) nobody is dying to Maarselok in isolation, it doesn't carry builds on its own, you need to build properly for it
3) you ate a telegraphed long setup combo from the worst class in the game, that's just being outplayed
1) Dawnbreaker has both instant and a dot. So yes, they are comparable.
2) Build properly? one of the screenshots didnt even have Vateshran, nor did he have masters. Effects were applied by someone else, not that player and yet the highest damage was done by the set.
3) Ate a telegraphed long combo? When was the last time you dodged roll out of it?
Sounds like you are one of the abusers of this, simply defending the broken.2 -
xylena_lazarow✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭
You're asking for nerfs because you got zerged down?techprince wrote: »Effects were applied by someone else, not that player and yet the highest damage was done by the set.
Death recaps are the worst thing to ever happen to this game.PC/NA || CP/Cyro || RIP soft caps2 -
ZOS_IcymodGreetings,
We have recently removed some unnecessary back and forth from this thread. This is a reminder to keep the discussion civil and constructive. Please keep our Community Rules in mind moving forward.
Thank you for your understanding.0 -
techprince✭✭✭✭✭xylena_lazarow wrote: »
You're asking for nerfs because you got zerged down?techprince wrote: »Effects were applied by someone else, not that player and yet the highest damage was done by the set.
Death recaps are the worst thing to ever happen to this game.
Reading comprehension. If a 2 piece set is doing more damage than a damn ultimate, when the set is "meta" so much so that almost every dot build uses it, the set is over performing. Dont derail the topic. Nobody said anything about getting zerged.Edited by techprince on 2 April 2024 05:322 -
HowlKimchi✭✭✭✭✭
✭techprince wrote: »
Dont derail the topic. Nobody said anything about getting zerged.xylena_lazarow wrote: »
You're asking for nerfs because you got zerged down?techprince wrote: »Effects were applied by someone else, not that player and yet the highest damage was done by the set.
Death recaps are the worst thing to ever happen to this game.
Transparency matters. Your death recaps suggest a fair 1v1 loss to maarselok being OP. But then, revealing another participant undermines this, suggesting you just died in an unfair fight, questioning maarselok's role in your death.3
