Are dedicated tanks needed for base game normal dungeons?

ixthUA

VaranisArano wrote: »

Have you tried just following them? You're a "full tank", you should be able to soak some sideswipes from mobs on your way to the boss.

And as I said, if you don't the experience of DDs rushing ahead, blame the people who taught them to disregard the tank in the first place: fake tanks.

Why wait on someone who's probably not going to taunt anyway? That's what the proliferation of fake tanks taught everyone.

Wrong again. People queue as fake tanks because it helps everyone (including them) to get into the dungeon faster, and real tanks aren't needed there anyway - not to absorb damage, not to taunt.
Even with fake tanks/healers, there is a shortage of them, so if more people fake queued to normal dungeons - it would benefit everyone.
If fake roles were taken out of queue pool - DD queue would be not 5-10 minutes, but 20-40 minutes, does anyone want it?

Soarora

Sometimes

ixthUA wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

Tanks should be the one leading the group, anyone rushing ahead of the tank is breaching etiquette and actually making the dungeon a lot more painful than it needs to be (after all, the tank is the one chaining and debuffing the trash so it can be AoE'd down...). This happens a lot in non-dlc to the point that I have quit pugging non-dlc entirely, and often on normal too (which I don't do also for that reason). Vet DLC it doesn't happen as much and when it does you can laugh as you let them die over, and over, and over again.

In normal base game dungeons, i don't see a reason for tank to lead the group. Its usually the most agitated DD who rushes ahead to the first non-skippable boss and kills everything. And there is not much to do for pure tank during boss fight, which usually lasts for 5-10 sec.
A real healer can buff team weapon/spell damage by 1k for the duration of the run, but normal dungeons are so easy it makes no difference, so healer just deals damage.
Tried dedicated tanking today. Other than doing no damage and being unable to kill the weakest mob on my own, no difference.
Team rushed ahead, skipped a ton of adds that slowed me down when i was trying to catch up. Burned bosses in seconds, i barely had time to taunt them (which was pointless in the end). Whole run took less than 5 min.
Community-preferred tank: does nothing useful in a dungeons, just like a healer who only heals.

Just something to think about: random normal dungeon (no dlc) average queue time for tank is instant (lets say 1 sec), for DD same queue is 300-600 sec. And when DDs finally get into the dungeon - most of the time tank is fake (another DD). So waiting 5-10 minutes in queue is better than instant queue and 3-5 min long dungeon run? I wonder why.

That’s just the culture of normals and non dlcs— because the game lets them get away with it. They don’t die therefore their selfishness takes over. Again, I avoid normals and non dlcs for that exact reason. I still think a tank SHOULD lead, at the very least so they can gather trash mobs in a nice pile, but of course because runners get away with running right through all the trash, it doesn’t matter. If you want to tank, I suggest vet DLC. Unfortunately that really is the only kind of dungeon you’ll be respected in because you hold the power of one-shots and frantic kiting in your hands.

VaranisArano

ixthUA wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Have you tried just following them? You're a "full tank", you should be able to soak some sideswipes from mobs on your way to the boss.

And as I said, if you don't the experience of DDs rushing ahead, blame the people who taught them to disregard the tank in the first place: fake tanks.

Why wait on someone who's probably not going to taunt anyway? That's what the proliferation of fake tanks taught everyone.

Wrong again. People queue as fake tanks because it helps everyone (including them) to get into the dungeon faster, and real tanks aren't needed there anyway - not to absorb damage, not to taunt.
Even with fake tanks/healers, there is a shortage of them, so if more people fake queued to normal dungeons - it would benefit everyone.
If fake roles were taken out of queue pool - DD queue would be not 5-10 minutes, but 20-40 minutes, does anyone want it?

What does this have to do with what I said?

You complained about your real tank getting stuck on mobs. You're a tank. Take the hit and keep moving.


As for your complaints about how your DDs and Healers rushing ahead made your Real Tank feel useless, you do see how Fake Tanks contribute to the problem, right?

They don't wait on their real tank because you and every other fake tank in the queue have taught them that no one is going to hold boss aggro and that most people who queue up as tank are actually fakes. There's no point in waiting on a fake who's not gonna taunt anyway.

Like, really, you and all the other fake tanks in the queue have spent years teaching all the DDs and Healers bad habits. Fake tanks who rush teach everyone else to rush to keep up with the fake. Fake tanks teach everyone else to never expect basic tank support like taunting the boss. Its pretty rich to complain now that no one waited for your Real Tank to come and taunt the boss. What did you expect?


If you queue as tank, the least you could do is slot a taunt and stay alive. You can DPS parse the boss all you want so long as you do the basic role of a tank. If you won't taunt the boss, you've got no excuse for pointing accusing fingers at DDs and Healers for making other people's dungeon runs less enjoyable while you're expecting others to facetank the boss for you.

Braffin

They are not needed

VaranisArano wrote: »

ixthUA wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Have you tried just following them? You're a "full tank", you should be able to soak some sideswipes from mobs on your way to the boss.

And as I said, if you don't the experience of DDs rushing ahead, blame the people who taught them to disregard the tank in the first place: fake tanks.

Why wait on someone who's probably not going to taunt anyway? That's what the proliferation of fake tanks taught everyone.

Wrong again. People queue as fake tanks because it helps everyone (including them) to get into the dungeon faster, and real tanks aren't needed there anyway - not to absorb damage, not to taunt.
Even with fake tanks/healers, there is a shortage of them, so if more people fake queued to normal dungeons - it would benefit everyone.
If fake roles were taken out of queue pool - DD queue would be not 5-10 minutes, but 20-40 minutes, does anyone want it?

What does this have to do with what I said?

You complained about your real tank getting stuck on mobs. You're a tank. Take the hit and keep moving.


As for your complaints about how your DDs and Healers rushing ahead made your Real Tank feel useless, you do see how Fake Tanks contribute to the problem, right?

They don't wait on their real tank because you and every other fake tank in the queue have taught them that no one is going to hold boss aggro and that most people who queue up as tank are actually fakes. There's no point in waiting on a fake who's not gonna taunt anyway.

Like, really, you and all the other fake tanks in the queue have spent years teaching all the DDs and Healers bad habits. Fake tanks who rush teach everyone else to rush to keep up with the fake. Fake tanks teach everyone else to never expect basic tank support like taunting the boss. Its pretty rich to complain now that no one waited for your Real Tank to come and taunt the boss. What did you expect?


If you queue as tank, the least you could do is slot a taunt and stay alive. You can DPS parse the boss all you want so long as you do the basic role of a tank. If you won't taunt the boss, you've got no excuse for pointing accusing fingers at DDs and Healers for making other people's dungeon runs less enjoyable while you're expecting others to facetank the boss for you.

Sorry, but you put the cart before the horse here. While I definitely not intend to defend fake tanks or any other behaviour which is showing a lack of respect or politeness towards teammates, queuing for the wrong role is for sure not causing bad manners from dds or healers.

Instead the described behaviour is responsible for the lack of tanks willing to queue up for activities with randoms in the first place. DDs don't need a fake tank to learn, that there is no tank needed in normal dungeons, that is done by the dungeon itself due to lack of consequences. So a lot of them choose the fastest and most efficient way for themselves to achieve their personal goals. That is rushing through the dungeon and kill only the absolute minimum necessary. The consequences of this behaviour is bearing the tank, if present. Sure, he could just pant after the group, but that isn't fun. Being kicked for complaining is neither.

Fake tanks may have their share in further solidifying selfish behaviour in groups, I won't deny that. But they are definitely not the original cause, but a result of deeper lying issues with grouping mechanics. If you can solo any given specific content, there will be some people doing it, that's a statistical fact. If you encourage this people to play said content in group (keyword is transmutes here), while refraining to set consequences for selfish behaviour, they will continue to play solo and rush through as usual.

I mean, not letting players take their quest, lack of communication in general (even greeting is treated as "waste of time") or even starting to run through the dungeon before all teammates even arrived, all of that are common complaints in random normal dungeons. Are fake tanks responsible for this too? I don't think so. It's the despicable farming mentality which has a large portion of the playerbase under control.

mdjessup4906

Sometimes

ixthUA wrote: »

I got into a group, where at the end of the run (before final boss) fake healer (DD) complained there is no dedicated tank and group is in trouble, which was new for me. I did many runs of normal base dungeons as 4 DDs and they were fast and efficient.

lol fake healer whining there's no dedicated tank.

As for poll: tank? yes. full on vet/trial tank? no, but it also depends on the group/player skill. My personal policy is if i can solo it, or at least 2 man it, i can tank it as a dps. But I ALWAYS slot a taunt and caltrops, because that's the job.

Can't take a hit or keep the boss still? Don't q as tank.

And of course, this opinion is for pugs. In premades, one is of course free to do whatever the group is cool with.

VaranisArano

Braffin wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

ixthUA wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Have you tried just following them? You're a "full tank", you should be able to soak some sideswipes from mobs on your way to the boss.

And as I said, if you don't the experience of DDs rushing ahead, blame the people who taught them to disregard the tank in the first place: fake tanks.

Why wait on someone who's probably not going to taunt anyway? That's what the proliferation of fake tanks taught everyone.

Wrong again. People queue as fake tanks because it helps everyone (including them) to get into the dungeon faster, and real tanks aren't needed there anyway - not to absorb damage, not to taunt.
Even with fake tanks/healers, there is a shortage of them, so if more people fake queued to normal dungeons - it would benefit everyone.
If fake roles were taken out of queue pool - DD queue would be not 5-10 minutes, but 20-40 minutes, does anyone want it?

What does this have to do with what I said?

You complained about your real tank getting stuck on mobs. You're a tank. Take the hit and keep moving.


As for your complaints about how your DDs and Healers rushing ahead made your Real Tank feel useless, you do see how Fake Tanks contribute to the problem, right?

They don't wait on their real tank because you and every other fake tank in the queue have taught them that no one is going to hold boss aggro and that most people who queue up as tank are actually fakes. There's no point in waiting on a fake who's not gonna taunt anyway.

Like, really, you and all the other fake tanks in the queue have spent years teaching all the DDs and Healers bad habits. Fake tanks who rush teach everyone else to rush to keep up with the fake. Fake tanks teach everyone else to never expect basic tank support like taunting the boss. Its pretty rich to complain now that no one waited for your Real Tank to come and taunt the boss. What did you expect?


If you queue as tank, the least you could do is slot a taunt and stay alive. You can DPS parse the boss all you want so long as you do the basic role of a tank. If you won't taunt the boss, you've got no excuse for pointing accusing fingers at DDs and Healers for making other people's dungeon runs less enjoyable while you're expecting others to facetank the boss for you.

Sorry, but you put the cart before the horse here. While I definitely not intend to defend fake tanks or any other behaviour which is showing a lack of respect or politeness towards teammates, queuing for the wrong role is for sure not causing bad manners from dds or healers.

Instead the described behaviour is responsible for the lack of tanks willing to queue up for activities with randoms in the first place. DDs don't need a fake tank to learn, that there is no tank needed in normal dungeons, that is done by the dungeon itself due to lack of consequences. So a lot of them choose the fastest and most efficient way for themselves to achieve their personal goals. That is rushing through the dungeon and kill only the absolute minimum necessary. The consequences of this behaviour is bearing the tank, if present. Sure, he could just pant after the group, but that isn't fun. Being kicked for complaining is neither.

Fake tanks may have their share in further solidifying selfish behaviour in groups, I won't deny that. But they are definitely not the original cause, but a result of deeper lying issues with grouping mechanics. If you can solo any given specific content, there will be some people doing it, that's a statistical fact. If you encourage this people to play said content in group (keyword is transmutes here), while refraining to set consequences for selfish behaviour, they will continue to play solo and rush through as usual.

I mean, not letting players take their quest, lack of communication in general (even greeting is treated as "waste of time") or even starting to run through the dungeon before all teammates even arrived, all of that are common complaints in random normal dungeons. Are fake tanks responsible for this too? I don't think so. It's the despicable farming mentality which has a large portion of the playerbase under control.

So you know, I've written and deleted several extremely cathartic rants, so I'll just say that leveling up my healer in normal dungeons was an unpleasant experience that's thoroughly soured me on every fake tank who refuses to taunt the boss.Someone's going to end up with boss aggro and it was usually me. And worse, I was expected to be grateful for the quick queue and extra DPS while I did twice the work and picked up their slack.

I'm going to try to keep the saltiness to a healthier level, but if you want the rant, I'm sure it'll all burst out again.

...........

You're right that fake tanks aren't solely responsible for the pervasive farming mentality in Normal Dungeons or the bad behavior it leads to.

The way I see it, fake tanks have taken that pervasive farming mentality to the point that they queue for the quickest role, refuse to perform the basics of said role like taunting the boss, expect their groupmates to pick up their slack by facetanking the boss, and make excuses when called on it.

Much like people who rush off in dungeons, fake tanking works fantastically well if everyone in group shares the same farming mentality.

As soon as someone has a problem with being forced to pick up the fake tank's slack (from inexperience or not wanting to facetank) then it becomes yet another example of efficiency at the expense of groupmates. Its cloaked in excuses about how quicker queues for everyone justifies the selfishness of the fake tank abdicating the responsibilities of their role. It's cloaked in excuses about how the fake's higher DPS justifies making someone else take boss aggro and pick up the slack. And this is in the Random Normal queue where you get everyone from genuine newbies to leveling vets to transmute farmers. There's zero guarantee that groupmates share the farming mentality...and fake tanks don't care. Someone's always going to end up with boss aggro, but heaven forbid they slot a taunt or do their job.


You're also right that there's a bit of a chicken or the egg situation with who started teaching who bad behavior and bad group etiquette. We can say that DDs and Healers don't "need" a tank so they don't respect the role, but on the flip side, the proliferation of fake tanks means that they've been forced to learn to play without a real tank. Once they've adapted to playing with fake tanks, a real tank just gets treated as slower than their regular experience. So it's a reinforcing set of bad habits all the way down.

And so I find it darkly hilarious that someone who fake tanks brought their Real Tank and then was disappointed their group didn't wait for them or let them do Real Tank things.

Gee, I wonder why?

Could it be the pervasive farming mentality of efficiency despite the costs that fake tanks encourage and happily perpetuate?

No, surely not.

Elendir2am

Sometimes

Some people are so self-centered that they forget that just because they don't need a tank in a group doesn't mean no one else does. PvEs need new blood regularly. Discouraging beginners by disrupting their learning process is a way to prevent them from playing PvE.

preevious

Needed? Not really.
Do I want one? Hell yes.

Let's not hide a "I'm selfish and wanna queue fast" behind a "we don't really need tanks or healers".
The only motivation of fake tanks and healer is queuing fast. Nothing else. And they don't give a damn if they inconvenience someone else.

If you want a no-tank run, don't queue .. find a group of like-minded people, and don't poison the experience of others.
If you queue, you get randoms .. if they bothered to queue as DD, they wanted a tank/healer/2DD group.
Sometimes, I'm appaled with the lack of consideration of some people.

El_Borracho

They are not needed

Maybe the last boss in Spindle 1 to keep the one-shot AOE out of the middle? Still, more of a convenience than a necessity. I can't think of any bosses in the base dungeons where a tank is required.

Mesite

Sometimes

I still think the non-dlc dungeons are where people go when they are just starting to learn how to tank. So it's like a training ground.

But if everyone runs off you just can't learn so well.

merpins

They are not needed

Not really. Though they would make some dungeons go a bit faster if all your DPS' are arcanists since the taunt can prevent them from being interrupted during beam. But then I'd just suggest a support healer that's slotting a taunt. For some DLC dungeons tanks are pretty necessary on normal, but some can just ignore having a tank. It's pretty hit or miss.

Necrotech_Master

Sometimes

if your running in a pre-organized group and you know you dont need a tank, then by all means you dont need a tank

if your running with randoms, then should expect the tank role to tank

ive "fake tanked" a few times but usually only in a group of friends, and i still at minimum equip a taunt (theres only a few times ive forgotten ive marked as a tank on a non-tank and unintentionally fake tanked with randoms, but again still slotted a taunt)

in a pre-made group, everyone is aware of whats going on, but with a random group, you dont know anyones experience level with the content nor if people are even set up properly for their role (healers with no heals, tanks with no taunts, inexperienced dps etc)

jaws343

Sometimes

I think a few scenarios in group finder warrant not having a dedicated tank for normal base game dungeons. Mostly though, a minimum requirement imo for not having one:
- You can solo the dungeon on the current character you are running without having to kite bosses

Now, not a fan of dps queuing as tanks, but if you are going to do so, you should at least, at a minimum be able to meet the criteria above. But you should also:
- Slot and use a taunt


If you aren't going to do either of those things, you are wasting everyone's time.

Personally, I can solo every base and dlc dungeon in the game that doesn't have a pin or locking mechanic on normal. And most vet base games on normal as well. If I ever queue my DPS as a tank, I am swapping out inner light for inner fire and taunting bosses and adds while DPSing.

But what I would not be doing is running around like a chicken with my head cut off kiting the boss and losing taunt. I think I can count on 2 hands the number of times I've actually queued my DPS as a tank, mostly in a few farming situations where I was trying to get in and get something really quickly.

AvalonRanger

They are not needed

You don't need tank and healer in non DLC normal dungeon, if you're over CP300 player.

Blood_again

Sometimes

After reading the topic I think OP somewhy cut the question, then started to sell his answer.
The full question looks like "Are dedicated tanks needed for my group in base game normal dungeons?"
The counter question is "What's your group?"

1. 4 Yolo. That's how OP imagines his group. Trash mobs live for 2 seconds. Bosses are dead before dd went to the new rotation cycle. No any use for ultimate.
No, guys, you don't need any kind of tank here. I doubt you even need any gear or loot here. What are you doing here, guys?

2. Beginners group or mechanics learning group. Damage is low or intentionaly gimped, so every mechanic of bosses are exposed. With healer or not (guys could learn 3dd specific).
You need dedicated tank - taunt and selfheal are mandatory. Shield would be a plus. Using proc damage sets or damaging skills (even for self healing) is a minus, because your task is quite opposite the damage dealing. Let people learn to do their job.

3. Totally random group. Fake healer and fake dds are probable, but not guaranteed. Fastrunner is probable, especially if healer is fake.
You don't need full loaded tank in heavy and support for this group, but dedicated tank is very welcomed. That means you have and use taunt, position boss properly, don't do stupid things to die or kill the group. You do your lovely damage job on second panel only after doing your main job you queued for.
Also if somebody rushes and other don't, it is very welcomed to taunt and kill some mobs who aggroed on people left back. Just because you can and they often don't.

Summary, watch your group, hear your group, think what they really need and what they lack at the moment if you're experienced enough.
Talking about "I grant my group fast queue, so love me running around while boss beats you" is disservice, just an excuse to cut the queue. It is as fake as your role, if you don't fulfill it at least minimally. So be honest at least with yourself.

Dojohoda

Sometimes

As one who tanks "random normal" I have noticed that whether or not I am needed depends on the players in the group.

It's hard to know, at first, if the lowCP/lowbies have experience and/or a good amount of CP. If everyone sprints ahead and is able to easily clear the first sets of mobs, they probably don't need me. At that point I will decide to either leave or stay. The decision I make, after I decide that they will be fine, depends on my sticker-book (if it's full or not) and how tired I am. However, I will stay and try to keep up if I think they might need a tank at some point in the dungeon since they probably were in queue for a while just to get into the dungeon.