Should mesmerize and it's morphs apply the new "Charm" effect instead of Fear?

TX12001rwb17_ESO

Necrom introduces a new effect called Charm which can be applied to enemies with one of the Arcanist's abilities, this effect makes NPCs follow you around for a brief few moments.

Needless to say I believe this would be more logical for the Vampire's mesmerize ability then effecting them with fear, what do you think?

Braffin

No

Given that in the established lore "charm" is a spell of the illusion school of magic in theory everybody is able to learn it would be possible of course.

Nonetheless I'm against the suggested chance as the same lore clearly indicates vampires as frightening creatures which have to hide their true nature.

Their origin is in the end molag bal, Who reigns his plane through fear and is definitely not the most charming being around. Fear is therefore fitting better here imo.

Amottica

No

Braffin wrote: »

Given that in the established lore "charm" is a spell of the illusion school of magic in theory everybody is able to learn it would be possible of course.

Nonetheless I'm against the suggested chance as the same lore clearly indicates vampires as frightening creatures which have to hide their true nature.

Their origin is in the end molag bal, Who reigns his plane through fear and is definitely not the most charming being around. Fear is therefore fitting better here imo.

Great explanation and I suggest a logical conclusion based on lore and history.

TX12001rwb17_ESO

Yes

Braffin wrote: »

Given that in the established lore "charm" is a spell of the illusion school of magic in theory everybody is able to learn it would be possible of course.

Nonetheless I'm against the suggested chance as the same lore clearly indicates vampires as frightening creatures which have to hide their true nature.

Their origin is in the end molag bal, Who reigns his plane through fear and is definitely not the most charming being around. Fear is therefore fitting better here imo.

I beg to differ, I take it you never played Skyrim, they literally had an ability called "Vampiric Seduction" and the name Mesmerize does not sound like an ability that should cause people to start screaming in fear, how do you think scaring someone for no reason is more appropriate then compelling someone to follow you to a dark secluded where you can drain them dry?

Braffin

No

TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »

Braffin wrote: »

Given that in the established lore "charm" is a spell of the illusion school of magic in theory everybody is able to learn it would be possible of course.

Nonetheless I'm against the suggested chance as the same lore clearly indicates vampires as frightening creatures which have to hide their true nature.

Their origin is in the end molag bal, Who reigns his plane through fear and is definitely not the most charming being around. Fear is therefore fitting better here imo.

I beg to differ, I take it you never played Skyrim, they literally had an ability called "Vampiric Seduction" and the name Mesmerize does not sound like an ability that should cause people to start screaming in fear, how do you think scaring someone for no reason is more appropriate then compelling someone to follow you to a dark secluded where you can drain them dry?

If you really need to know, I played a vampire in morrowind (aundae to be exact), I played some time as vampire in oblivion and had a nice little chat with the count of skingrad about the topic, and of course I tried a vampire in skyrim.

Sure, as I initially stated, it would be possible. Let's change mesmerize to vampire's seduction so you may calm your victims, once a day of course, same as in skyrim. And as we are at it, let vampires be affected by sunlight.

Nonetheless a vampire in all elder scrolls never was a cunning gentleman lurking someone in a backalley but a frightening beast bringing terror and pain to all around them. That's why the present skill is indeed fitting imo.

PS: Not that much important, but are you aware, that vampirism in skyrim (sanguinare vampiris) and eso (noxiphilic sanguivoria) have a different origin? Why are you sure there isn't a difference in a vampire's skill, if there is definitely a difference in their origin?

Tyrant_Tim

Yes

Charm would make sense, given it’s the closest to mesmerizing or “enthralling” a victim as possible.

Throughout the series, when exploring caves, it was common for “Thralls” to be present with Vampires. These mind controlled minions would go so far as to fight and die for their masters.

While the change would be thematic, it would also give the skill a niche, at it’s current standing, it’s a worse version of Turn Evil from the Fighter’s Guild.

emilyhyoyeon

Braffin wrote: »

TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »

Braffin wrote: »

Given that in the established lore "charm" is a spell of the illusion school of magic in theory everybody is able to learn it would be possible of course.

Nonetheless I'm against the suggested chance as the same lore clearly indicates vampires as frightening creatures which have to hide their true nature.

Their origin is in the end molag bal, Who reigns his plane through fear and is definitely not the most charming being around. Fear is therefore fitting better here imo.

I beg to differ, I take it you never played Skyrim, they literally had an ability called "Vampiric Seduction" and the name Mesmerize does not sound like an ability that should cause people to start screaming in fear, how do you think scaring someone for no reason is more appropriate then compelling someone to follow you to a dark secluded where you can drain them dry?

Nonetheless a vampire in all elder scrolls never was a cunning gentleman lurking someone in a backalley but a frightening beast bringing terror and pain to all around them. That's why the present skill is indeed fitting imo.

Seridur in Oblivion is literally the cunning gentleman luring someone in a back alley though... He's one person, but it's still represented through him, with his own quest specifically around this theme, to boot.


I think the best way of looking at this is that vampires in TES aren't a monolith. Both fear and charm would be appropriate for them. In terms of this ESO skill, maybe mess around with each skill morph and one could charm and one could fear depending on which works better for which.

Braffin

No

emilyhyoyeon wrote: »

Braffin wrote: »

TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »

Braffin wrote: »

Given that in the established lore "charm" is a spell of the illusion school of magic in theory everybody is able to learn it would be possible of course.

Nonetheless I'm against the suggested chance as the same lore clearly indicates vampires as frightening creatures which have to hide their true nature.

Their origin is in the end molag bal, Who reigns his plane through fear and is definitely not the most charming being around. Fear is therefore fitting better here imo.

I beg to differ, I take it you never played Skyrim, they literally had an ability called "Vampiric Seduction" and the name Mesmerize does not sound like an ability that should cause people to start screaming in fear, how do you think scaring someone for no reason is more appropriate then compelling someone to follow you to a dark secluded where you can drain them dry?

Nonetheless a vampire in all elder scrolls never was a cunning gentleman lurking someone in a backalley but a frightening beast bringing terror and pain to all around them. That's why the present skill is indeed fitting imo.

Seridur in Oblivion is literally the cunning gentleman luring someone in a back alley though... He's one person, but it's still represented through him, with his own quest specifically around this theme, to boot.


I think the best way of looking at this is that vampires in TES aren't a monolith. Both fear and charm would be appropriate for them. In terms of this ESO skill, maybe mess around with each skill morph and one could charm and one could fear depending on which works better for which.

Yeah, you're very right on this one.

As I think of it (will never happen, I know), why not do both?

We already learned, that vampires occur in different bloodlines (often represented through different deseases causing them). So it would be possible to play an eso-styled vampire if infected by noxiphilic sanguivoria (preferably including the bat-swarm-ultimate) or an more skyrim-styled one if infected by sanguinare vampiris (with more "classical" feeding habit and vampire-lord ultimate for example).

Dr_Con

Yes

It already has this functionality for Merchants, at the very least there should be a morph that functions to "charm" enemies.

From the results so far, it's safe to say that an overwhelming majority is in favor of this change.

Vevvev

Not even just Skyrim, but Daggerfall, Oblivion, and Morrowind all had calm mortal, charm, seduction, and other spells to make mortals see the monster in front of them more favorably.

It came innately to the vampire, and the fear spells while they do exist didn't come with the vampire kit. ESO's Mesmerize and morphs all charm mortals and fear people in combat, but in all honesty the main issue with the ability is landing it.

I have no problems with how Mesmerize and it's morphs work in the game on a tooltip level, but the "looking at you" rule needs a change. Either increase the cone that classifies as "looking at you" from 90 degrees (45 degrees left and right) to 160-180 degrees (80-90 degrees left and right), or make it so the stun becomes unblockable if the target is looking at you.

The expanding of the cone makes it easier to land, but still not work if you're not at least facing the vampire, and the other keeps the narrow cone, but makes the AoE stun blockable unless the vampire is standing right in front of them.

Zastrix

Yes

Vevvev wrote: »

Not even just Skyrim, but Daggerfall, Oblivion, and Morrowind all had calm mortal, charm, seduction, and other spells to make mortals see the monster in front of them more favorably.

It came innately to the vampire, and the fear spells while they do exist didn't come with the vampire kit. ESO's Mesmerize and morphs all charm mortals and fear people in combat, but in all honesty the main issue with the ability is landing it.

I have no problems with how Mesmerize and it's morphs work in the game on a tooltip level, but the "looking at you" rule needs a change. Either increase the cone that classifies as "looking at you" from 90 degrees (45 degrees left and right) to 160-180 degrees (80-90 degrees left and right), or make it so the stun becomes unblockable if the target is looking at you.

The expanding of the cone makes it easier to land, but still not work if you're not at least facing the vampire, and the other keeps the narrow cone, but makes the AoE stun blockable unless the vampire is standing right in front of them.

I'd deff use Hypnosis if it was a true aoe. I currently use mass hysteria for AOE fights and Hynposis would just be icing on the cake if it was like that. Okay for it to be blockable unless you're looking at the vampire.

StarOfElyon

TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »

Necrom introduces a new effect called Charm which can be applied to enemies with one of the Arcanist's abilities, this effect makes NPCs follow you around for a brief few moments.

Needless to say I believe this would be more logical for the Vampire's mesmerize ability then effecting them with fear, what do you think?

Other. The directional morph could get the charm effect. The AoE morph should remain a fear.

tsaescishoeshiner

No

They removed AoE "fears" (as in effects that make groups of players run) a few years ago, I think for good reason.

That said, this skill does need some kind of buff. The fact that it's unblockable doesn't make up for the weird "opponent must be facing you" part. Maybe if it put an effect on YOU for 0.5 - 1 seconds that stunned nearby opponents who face you? So there was some more wiggle room.

As far as lore, there are valid explanations for either effect for this ability, so there's no reason to choose one for that reason alone.

YandereGirlfriend

tsaescishoeshiner wrote: »

They removed AoE "fears" (as in effects that make groups of players run) a few years ago, I think for good reason.

That said, this skill does need some kind of buff. The fact that it's unblockable doesn't make up for the weird "opponent must be facing you" part. Maybe if it put an effect on YOU for 0.5 - 1 seconds that stunned nearby opponents who face you? So there was some more wiggle room.

As far as lore, there are valid explanations for either effect for this ability, so there's no reason to choose one for that reason alone.

I mean, they removed true Fears because they couldn't solve the bug where you would run through level geometry and get stuck if you were close to something when it happened (TBH, I wish that they would do the same thing with Knock-Up and Knock-Back because I have been knocked into resource tower ceilings FAR too many times by Meteor to count).

If they could actually solve that problem then things like Charm become more interesting (though I do agree that Charm is more thematically appropriate to the skill - at least for one morph).

And I also echo the calls for a buff to some aspect of this skill because it, as with most vamp skills, just ain't it right now.