45-50k HP polar wind spamming healbot wardens are ruining BGs.

Galeriano

Like the title says. The moment setup like that joins BG it's instantly obvious all fun will be sucked out of the match. This is nearly unkillable healbot that can pull his allies from low to max health with 1 click. Polar wind should not be a crossheal or it shouldn't have so high HP scaling.

Janni

It's nowhere near as strong as you think. I run 40k hp and even near a keep it only heals for about 7k. 12k if it crits. And it's super expensive to spam so I usually get maybe 2 casts before I need to kite or fight hard to get people off of my tail.

Really they are doing no more than any other tanky healer. Stacking lots of passive defenses and many many many HoTs is the real culprit. And sets that provide healing are becoming popular again too which is just another layer of healing.

Just to be clear I'm not saying that healing isn't really out of control. But this one skill by itself isn't what's breaking the bank.

Galeriano

Janni wrote: »

It's nowhere near as strong as you think. I run 40k hp and even near a keep it only heals for about 7k. 12k if it crits. And it's super expensive to spam so I usually get maybe 2 casts before I need to kite or fight hard to get people off of my tail.

Really they are doing no more than any other tanky healer. Stacking lots of passive defenses and many many many HoTs is the real culprit. And sets that provide healing are becoming popular again too which is just another layer of healing.

Just to be clear I'm not saying that healing isn't really out of control. But this one skill by itself isn't what's breaking the bank.

I don't remember seeing keeps in BGs. Your build is clearly not the one I am talking about. You lack comparision.

Properly build You can spam it almost endlesly and with 45-50k HP tooltip it reaches values way higher than other class crossheals especially if other class healers would try to build for such high health setups. Stacking HoT's is not the issue in BGs, healing others for up to 15k with one button while being high HP tank is.

Healing in general is busted but other classes on healers are way less problematic than this particular setup. You can even build some decent dmg with that setup and end up matches with over 1,5M healing and dmg at the same time.

Janni

Galeriano wrote: »

I don't remember seeing keeps in BGs. Your build is clearly not the one I am talking about. You lack comparision.

Properly build You can spam it almost endlesly and with 45-50k HP tooltip it reaches values way higher than other class crossheals especially if other class healers would try to build for such high health setups. Stacking HoT's is not the issue in BGs, healing others for up to 15k with one button while being high HP tank is.

Healing in general is busted but other classes on healers are way less problematic than this particular setup. You can even build some decent dmg with that setup and end up matches with over 1,5M healing and dmg at the same time.

My comparison point is that if in CP WITH the added bonus of keeps I can only get a 7k heal then it's not going to be stronger in BGs. Period. End of debate. The point isn't that you can't make the heal strong through many other means. The point is that you can't simply 'stack lots of hp and spam one skill' and you are instantly invulnerable to all damage forever. Being so reductionist about how players achieve these builds is not a healthy outlook. It causes misdirection away from the real sources of balance issues.

YandereGirlfriend

I don't have a strong opinion on this except that Health-scaling heals should NOT be a thing for any class.

"Yadda yadda what about PvE tanks?" someone will say. Well, that's what actual healers are for.

Galeriano

Janni wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

I don't remember seeing keeps in BGs. Your build is clearly not the one I am talking about. You lack comparision.

Properly build You can spam it almost endlesly and with 45-50k HP tooltip it reaches values way higher than other class crossheals especially if other class healers would try to build for such high health setups. Stacking HoT's is not the issue in BGs, healing others for up to 15k with one button while being high HP tank is.

Healing in general is busted but other classes on healers are way less problematic than this particular setup. You can even build some decent dmg with that setup and end up matches with over 1,5M healing and dmg at the same time.

My comparison point is that if in CP WITH the added bonus of keeps I can only get a 7k heal then it's not going to be stronger in BGs. Period. End of debate. The point isn't that you can't make the heal strong through many other means. The point is that you can't simply 'stack lots of hp and spam one skill' and you are instantly invulnerable to all damage forever. Being so reductionist about how players achieve these builds is not a healthy outlook. It causes misdirection away from the real sources of balance issues.

Fact that You on Your setup are not getting heals higher than 7k doesn't mean getting way higher heals is impossible. Proper setup will have heals way stronger than 7k. Once again You lack comparision, Your baseline is flawed because it comes from different setup. Make a 50k healbot Yourself and than we can talk. Also You must be doing something really wrong because on my 42k HP DD warden my polar wind with added bonus from keeps heals me upwards to 14k. Healbots in BGs can also get these values because they have more health and higher uptime on major mending from accelerated gworth passive and their heals are amplified by healing taken bonuses on their allies.

It's obvious these healbots are not invulnerable to all dmg just because they stacked health but it's hard not to notice that combining 50k HP with a heal that scales purely from it, is a important factor for their survivalability. It is a balance issue if we have a 50k HP tank that can spam massive heals on others.

Galeriano

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

I don't have a strong opinion on this except that Health-scaling heals should NOT be a thing for any class.

"Yadda yadda what about PvE tanks?" someone will say. Well, that's what actual healers are for.

There is nothing wrong his health scaling selfhealing. Tanks need it even if there are healers in the content because healer may be sometimes dead or occupied with other duties. The issue starts when scaling of said heals becomes a bit too high and when there is also a crossheal attached to it.

Janni

Galeriano wrote: »

Janni wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

I don't remember seeing keeps in BGs. Your build is clearly not the one I am talking about. You lack comparision.

Properly build You can spam it almost endlesly and with 45-50k HP tooltip it reaches values way higher than other class crossheals especially if other class healers would try to build for such high health setups. Stacking HoT's is not the issue in BGs, healing others for up to 15k with one button while being high HP tank is.

Healing in general is busted but other classes on healers are way less problematic than this particular setup. You can even build some decent dmg with that setup and end up matches with over 1,5M healing and dmg at the same time.

My comparison point is that if in CP WITH the added bonus of keeps I can only get a 7k heal then it's not going to be stronger in BGs. Period. End of debate. The point isn't that you can't make the heal strong through many other means. The point is that you can't simply 'stack lots of hp and spam one skill' and you are instantly invulnerable to all damage forever. Being so reductionist about how players achieve these builds is not a healthy outlook. It causes misdirection away from the real sources of balance issues.

Fact that You on Your setup are not getting heals higher than 7k doesn't mean getting way higher heals is impossible. Proper setup will have heals way stronger than 7k. Once again You lack comparision, Your baseline is flawed because it comes from different setup. Make a 50k healbot Yourself and than we can talk. Also You must be doing something really wrong because on my 42k HP DD warden my polar wind with added bonus from keeps heals me upwards to 14k. Healbots in BGs can also get these values because they have more health and higher uptime on major mending from accelerated gworth passive and their heals are amplified by healing taken bonuses on their allies.

It's obvious these healbots are not invulnerable to all dmg just because they stacked health but it's hard not to notice that combining 50k HP with a heal that scales purely from it, is a important factor for their survivalability. It is a balance issue if we have a 50k HP tank that can spam massive heals on others.

I can't even tell who's side of the argument you are on anymore XD

disintegr8

So PVP is only fun (or fair) when you can actually kill other players. It's a bit like saying something is only fun when you're winning, in which case it's probably time to stop playing.

People are going to build whatever they need with whatever they can get their hands on, whether it's to survive or to kill and the counters are always: If they can't die, it's unfair, if they kill you too easily, it's unfair.

There's nothing fair about war (PVP) and it's not going to be fun for a lot of people, maybe that's why there's PVE.

Kartalin

If you can only hit 7k polar wind heals you’re doing it wrong. I’ve got two different builds (no proc and proc) that far exceed that. You can still die in this setup but frequently they don’t notice what you’re doing, at least not immediately.

Galeriano

disintegr8 wrote: »

So PVP is only fun (or fair) when you can actually kill other players. It's a bit like saying something is only fun when you're winning, in which case it's probably time to stop playing.

People are going to build whatever they need with whatever they can get their hands on, whether it's to survive or to kill and the counters are always: If they can't die, it's unfair, if they kill you too easily, it's unfair.

There's nothing fair about war (PVP) and it's not going to be fun for a lot of people, maybe that's why there's PVE.

Actually yes. PvP is only fun when people are dying. Find me one player who at the end of 15 minutes deathmatch that finished with a score 90/60/45 will say "what a great match that was, truly enjoyable".

I know people will build whatever they can and will try to squeeze as much as they can from theri build. Thing is developer should not make certain options possible and 50k healbot with healt scaling crossheals is one of these things.

Saying that there is nothing fair about PvP is like saying that since true balance cannot be achieved than developer should not make balance changes at all and let people run wild with whatever they want. Some things needs to be balanced and fairness have nothing to do with it.

VaranisArano

disintegr8 wrote: »

So PVP is only fun (or fair) when you can actually kill other players. It's a bit like saying something is only fun when you're winning, in which case it's probably time to stop playing.

People are going to build whatever they need with whatever they can get their hands on, whether it's to survive or to kill and the counters are always: If they can't die, it's unfair, if they kill you too easily, it's unfair.

There's nothing fair about war (PVP) and it's not going to be fun for a lot of people, maybe that's why there's PVE.

Unironically, yes. ZOS actually tried out and then removed CP Battlegrounds because the time to kill (TTK) was too high. Matches were stalling out, there were a lot of tank builds that are balanced in Cyro but not in 4v4v4, and there was ridiculousness like using a Healer to Guard the tank.

Battlegrounds objectively benefits from a low TTK.

Roylund

disintegr8 wrote: »

So PVP is only fun (or fair) when you can actually kill other players. It's a bit like saying something is only fun when you're winning, in which case it's probably time to stop playing.

People are going to build whatever they need with whatever they can get their hands on, whether it's to survive or to kill and the counters are always: If they can't die, it's unfair, if they kill you too easily, it's unfair.

There's nothing fair about war (PVP) and it's not going to be fun for a lot of people, maybe that's why there's PVE.

The whole point of PvP is to kill other players. If TTK is too high then yeah you're ruining the fun. Imagine going to a dungeon where mobs just take forever to die. People would hate it.

I think the devs should define the roles better. They have DPS, Healer, and Tank, but all three classes can heal and healers are just glorified supports. There should be a higher opportunity cost between building damage, having good heals, and being tanky.

AndreNoir

Galeriano wrote: »

There is nothing wrong his health scaling selfhealing.

Everything is wrong with it

Galeriano wrote: »

Tanks need it even if there are healers in the content because healer may be sometimes dead or occupied with other duties

Then wipe, man. Wipe. Or let DD's defence scale of crit and SD/WD because "tank may be dead or occupied with other duties"

Digibrax

The whole point of PvP is to kill other players. If TTK is too high then yeah you're ruining the fun. Imagine going to a dungeon where mobs just take forever to die. People would hate it.

I think the devs should define the roles better. They have DPS, Healer, and Tank, but all three classes can heal and healers are just glorified supports. There should be a higher opportunity cost between building damage, having good heals, and being tanky.

Actually, the whole point of PvP for most players is TRYING to kill other players, while for other players it is trying to survive, and for some it is just trying to buff, heal or otherwise be helpful.

mocap

I think OP refering to warden burst crosshealing. Imagine 2 wardens simultaneously cast one Polar Wind for 10k. Each of them will get 20k heals total.

Add 1 cast of Echo Vigor and 2 casts of Rapid Regen and those two wardens become mini ballgroup.

Galeriano

AndreNoir wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

There is nothing wrong his health scaling selfhealing.

Everything is wrong with it

Galeriano wrote: »

Tanks need it even if there are healers in the content because healer may be sometimes dead or occupied with other duties

Then wipe, man. Wipe. Or let DD's defence scale of crit and SD/WD because "tank may be dead or occupied with other duties"

You simply cannot rely on a healer eveywhere and always. There are even places where proper execution of mechanics requires for tank to survive on his own for a while like Z'maja downstairs. Even DDs bring sometimes their own heals into the raid because they also sometimes need to do something without healer on their back.

"Than wipe" really isn't a great solution. DDs have a defense scaling from crit and weapon/spell dmg. Their heals are scaling excatly from this stats.

Daoin

I can say at the end of a deathmatch even if my team scored 1 kill and came last that i still enjoyed it becuase i know the way BG's are run and there is a high chance in the next, the team im put with could get all the kills while the other teams were simply no match (cant say i have been to any BG's regular basis though lately) and once the daily bonus for them is done thats that. And if relying on chance isnt working i can just change character and class and see how things go there until the daily is done.

Beffagorn

Depending on the situation, snake in the star can be helpful to deal with builds like those since it's unlikely for them to not be also running regen+vigor with near 100% uptime aswell as other random heals ticking but yeah, Wardens have been self healing blocks of steel for a while, which isn't problematic in itself mind you, but it does get overwhelming when you factor in interactions like netch + mara's balm coupled with Deceptive Predator.

pedrogonzalez

Return back nocp proc cyro. Best content in game. TTK is low, dynamics higher, nobody can tanking 5 players on open field. Same as zerglings can’t live long either

TechMaybeHic

pedrogonzalez wrote: »

Return back nocp proc cyro. Best content in game. TTK is low, dynamics higher, nobody can tanking 5 players on open field. Same as zerglings can’t live long either

The OP is talking about BGs which are literally that rule set

El_Borracho

Galeriano wrote: »

disintegr8 wrote: »

So PVP is only fun (or fair) when you can actually kill other players. It's a bit like saying something is only fun when you're winning, in which case it's probably time to stop playing.

People are going to build whatever they need with whatever they can get their hands on, whether it's to survive or to kill and the counters are always: If they can't die, it's unfair, if they kill you too easily, it's unfair.

There's nothing fair about war (PVP) and it's not going to be fun for a lot of people, maybe that's why there's PVE.

Actually yes. PvP is only fun when people are not dying. Find me one player who at the end of 15 minutes deathmatch that finished with a score 90/60/45 will say "what a great match that was, truly enjoyable".
.

Would rather have 90/60/45 than 0/0/10. After all its a DEATHmatch.

Unless I am unaware of some some super-competitive BGs league out there, BGs are there to mess around for 10-15 minutes tops. Are people really out there touting KD ratios in BGs? Because jumping into a BG with a healbot sounds about as fun as watching someone play BGs.

Galeriano

El_Borracho wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

disintegr8 wrote: »

So PVP is only fun (or fair) when you can actually kill other players. It's a bit like saying something is only fun when you're winning, in which case it's probably time to stop playing.

People are going to build whatever they need with whatever they can get their hands on, whether it's to survive or to kill and the counters are always: If they can't die, it's unfair, if they kill you too easily, it's unfair.

There's nothing fair about war (PVP) and it's not going to be fun for a lot of people, maybe that's why there's PVE.

Actually yes. PvP is only fun when people are dying. Find me one player who at the end of 15 minutes deathmatch that finished with a score 90/60/45 will say "what a great match that was, truly enjoyable".
.

Would rather have 90/60/45 than 0/0/10. After all its a DEATHmatch.

Unless I am unaware of some some super-competitive BGs league out there, BGs are there to mess around for 10-15 minutes tops. Are people really out there touting KD ratios in BGs? Because jumping into a BG with a healbot sounds about as fun as watching someone play BGs.

It's not about KD it's about the fact that one player spamming one button makes BG boring and unenjoyable for lots of people in it. Me personally I don't even like when I have healer like that in my team. Winning at that point is too easy.

El_Borracho

Galeriano wrote: »

El_Borracho wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

disintegr8 wrote: »

So PVP is only fun (or fair) when you can actually kill other players. It's a bit like saying something is only fun when you're winning, in which case it's probably time to stop playing.

People are going to build whatever they need with whatever they can get their hands on, whether it's to survive or to kill and the counters are always: If they can't die, it's unfair, if they kill you too easily, it's unfair.

There's nothing fair about war (PVP) and it's not going to be fun for a lot of people, maybe that's why there's PVE.

Actually yes. PvP is only fun when people are dying. Find me one player who at the end of 15 minutes deathmatch that finished with a score 90/60/45 will say "what a great match that was, truly enjoyable".
.

Would rather have 90/60/45 than 0/0/10. After all its a DEATHmatch.

Unless I am unaware of some some super-competitive BGs league out there, BGs are there to mess around for 10-15 minutes tops. Are people really out there touting KD ratios in BGs? Because jumping into a BG with a healbot sounds about as fun as watching someone play BGs.

It's not about KD it's about the fact that one player spamming one button makes BG boring and unenjoyable for lots of people in it. Me personally I don't even like when I have healer like that in my team. Winning at that point is too easy.

I totally agree. I'll run with friends as well as randos. There are some BGs, specifically Domination, where having the healer or warden AOE spammer makes it incredibly easy. Sure, its nice to win, but its almost too easy. But to each their own. For me, I couldn't imagine healing in BGs is fun

Daoin

yeah im too not sure how a good comparison of these things can be made in random BG's i have done lots dont enjoy Cyro or IC but BG's i have time for (although not for some time), its true at some points in the day you get players join one after the other of the random solo and can see the same player a few times even after winning, while trying to get the daily done on one character but move onto the next character i have seen i would say all classes and sometimes same players were dominating an hour ago lose by a mile and simply whip through the rest of the dailies, that includes wardens with polar winds, i have a warden also cant say polar winds ever made the difference between winning and losing a BG solo could be a full 3k cp team against a 400cp team all been teamed together for thier fisrst BG ever. winning means 'gg' 'gg' all around starting to lose either means leaving and let the rest try to defend themselves or start throwing they insults around lol, honestly i dont even think i have even seen a full team that is losing stay for the full 15 minutes as a group without one or 2 leaving when going gets bad. but if you mean group BG.s think i have only been to about 3 during whole time. Im still not even sure if group BG queues get placed against randoms sometimes

katorga

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

I don't have a strong opinion on this except that Health-scaling heals should NOT be a thing for any class.

"Yadda yadda what about PvE tanks?" someone will say. Well, that's what actual healers are for.

That is dead on correct.

Personally I think:

1. damage skills should scale from weapon / spell damage only.
2. Healing skills should scale from max magicka / stamina only.
3. Defensive skills, shields and block mitigation should scale from max health only.

Amottica

Galeriano wrote: »

Janni wrote: »

It's nowhere near as strong as you think. I run 40k hp and even near a keep it only heals for about 7k. 12k if it crits. And it's super expensive to spam so I usually get maybe 2 casts before I need to kite or fight hard to get people off of my tail.

Really they are doing no more than any other tanky healer. Stacking lots of passive defenses and many many many HoTs is the real culprit. And sets that provide healing are becoming popular again too which is just another layer of healing.

Just to be clear I'm not saying that healing isn't really out of control. But this one skill by itself isn't what's breaking the bank.

I don't remember seeing keeps in BGs. Your build is clearly not the one I am talking about. You lack comparision.

Their point is they have passives that boost their healing when they are near keeps.

That means in a BG they would heal for less so the comparison is valid.

Galeriano wrote: »

Janni wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

I don't remember seeing keeps in BGs. Your build is clearly not the one I am talking about. You lack comparision.

Properly build You can spam it almost endlesly and with 45-50k HP tooltip it reaches values way higher than other class crossheals especially if other class healers would try to build for such high health setups. Stacking HoT's is not the issue in BGs, healing others for up to 15k with one button while being high HP tank is.

Healing in general is busted but other classes on healers are way less problematic than this particular setup. You can even build some decent dmg with that setup and end up matches with over 1,5M healing and dmg at the same time.

My comparison point is that if in CP WITH the added bonus of keeps I can only get a 7k heal then it's not going to be stronger in BGs. Period. End of debate. The point isn't that you can't make the heal strong through many other means. The point is that you can't simply 'stack lots of hp and spam one skill' and you are instantly invulnerable to all damage forever. Being so reductionist about how players achieve these builds is not a healthy outlook. It causes misdirection away from the real sources of balance issues.

Fact that You on Your setup are not getting heals higher than 7k doesn't mean getting way higher heals is impossible. Proper setup will have heals way stronger than 7k. Once again You lack comparision, Your baseline is flawed because it comes from different setup. Make a 50k healbot Yourself and than we can talk.

Define the proper setup you speak of. Without that, there is no comparison.

Galeriano

[snip] it will continue to exist in update 39.

[edited for bashing]

Twohothardware

They need to undo the link between health and healing and shield sizes. The game needs to go back to being based on max Magicka or Stamina. They did this so tanks can just self heal and keep themselves alive but it breaks all the balance in PvP.

Players don't even put points in Magicka or Stamina for PvP any more, it all goes into health and just stack weapon/spell damage.

SandandStars

Ran into a Polar-Spamming Warden with Masters DW/Vatesh, running bear pet AND engine guardian.

He was average ability and I fought him to a draw on my relatively new Arcanist in average/mediocre gear (just shattered fate, for now till I figure how I want to play it… Wont be mastersdwvatesh pukefest)

After the match he whispered some crap about how he went easy on me. I told him I was used to everyone cheesing on Masters/Vatesh, but adding Engine Guardian + bear to run interference/block was extra cheese I don’t see often.

He said he doesn’t know what cheese build means.

🙃

Turtle_Bot

Not sure how a 40k health warden is getting less than 10k polar winds, especially near a keep, unless their target was affected by a lot of healing debuffs/defiles.

I'm easily getting 8k with arctic on my 30k health stamden and polar winds has a nearly 40% additional base tooltip heal over arctic. The same build but going 40k health instead of investing attributes into max stamina easily gives 10k+ polar winds if I was to run polar over arctic.