Brawler in Cyrodiil

Gargath

The skill says:
Swat enemies in front of you with a mighty swing, dealing 1742 Physical Damage to enemies in front of you.
You also gain a damage shield that absorbs 1799 damage for 6 seconds. Each enemy hit increases the damage shield's strength by 50%, up to 300%.

So to spam it for 10-12k dmg, while also getting a nice damage shield without any cost, what build can offer similar numbers?

aleksandr_ESO

to deal that much damage, the player must have low HP, and this is also a melee skill, and the player will die before he reaches the enemy. Force Pulse does the same amount of damage, but it's a range skill. So...

TechMaybeHic

The build that's doing that is typically DK with Corrosive armor using a pull set to clump a mass of enemies into 1 brawler swing area. Corrosive gives them full penetration and the enemies clumped stacks that damage number

Amerises

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

The build that's doing that is typically DK with Corrosive armor using a pull set to clump a mass of enemies into 1 brawler swing area. Corrosive gives them full penetration and the enemies clumped stacks that damage number

Don’t stand so close. Having done some bombing myself, it’s not as easy at it looks, and often, you’re so specialized it’s hard to be effective in much else. Spec’ing into something specifically shouldn’t be a bad thing, imho, and should be very steering in that one area.

TechMaybeHic

Amerises wrote: »

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

The build that's doing that is typically DK with Corrosive armor using a pull set to clump a mass of enemies into 1 brawler swing area. Corrosive gives them full penetration and the enemies clumped stacks that damage number

Don’t stand so close. Having done some bombing myself, it’s not as easy at it looks, and often, you’re so specialized it’s hard to be effective in much else. Spec’ing into something specifically shouldn’t be a bad thing, imho, and should be very steering in that one area.

Well; we can just ignore the fact that Rush of Agony radius seems to work from where the user starts the charge/teleport, all the way to where they finish, as I found as a guy came out of stealth right by me and gap closed a group maybe 20 meters away, pulled me right along with him.

After that; when a mass of enemies is fighting; do you think it's then wise to all be wide spread as they focus you down 1 by 1 as you all try to just range them failing to sustain focus damage on a single target due to no real targeting system? Then if you close in to fight melee; you're going to be in range of others to be pulled. If it's an organized ball group; usually they also have multiple to pull people from all over the place to one spot. And all this is without taking into account the chokepoints all over the place.

Maybe you could show me a video like one guy did where all he was doing was heavy lightning attacking from well away from the fight doing absolutely nothing to the enemy; but he didn't get pulled. That's great.

I don't even know why you brought it up here. All I was doing was letting the poster know what it is that's doing this.

Janni

As was already pointed out these builds are specially built for fighting clumps of enemies and typically only work during Whitestrake's when there are many inexperienced players in Cyrodiil. They also have an entire group supporting them to provide massive boosts to their damage, sustain, defense, and healing. Doing something like that solo is just about impossible.

I see an attempt like this several times and hour when fighting in Greyhost and perhaps once during the entire event I saw it work well. Players there are just too experienced on the whole to be caught off guard by it so it pretty much always ends with the Dk lying dead on the ground surrounded by perfectly healthy enemies. If they are particularly lucky it might catch 1 or 2 people that were already in trouble.

Marcus684

The players trying to take advantage of this are pretty obvious. You can see their wild swings all the way across the battlefield, and I usually see them lying dead or running away a few seconds later. I have yet to see it in my death recap.

Thecompton73

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

Amerises wrote: »

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

The build that's doing that is typically DK with Corrosive armor using a pull set to clump a mass of enemies into 1 brawler swing area. Corrosive gives them full penetration and the enemies clumped stacks that damage number

Don’t stand so close. Having done some bombing myself, it’s not as easy at it looks, and often, you’re so specialized it’s hard to be effective in much else. Spec’ing into something specifically shouldn’t be a bad thing, imho, and should be very steering in that one area.

Well; we can just ignore the fact that Rush of Agony radius seems to work from where the user starts the charge/teleport, all the way to where they finish, as I found as a guy came out of stealth right by me and gap closed a group maybe 20 meters away, pulled me right along with him.

After that; when a mass of enemies is fighting; do you think it's then wise to all be wide spread as they focus you down 1 by 1 as you all try to just range them failing to sustain focus damage on a single target due to no real targeting system? Then if you close in to fight melee; you're going to be in range of others to be pulled. If it's an organized ball group; usually they also have multiple to pull people from all over the place to one spot. And all this is without taking into account the chokepoints all over the place.

Maybe you could show me a video like one guy did where all he was doing was heavy lightning attacking from well away from the fight doing absolutely nothing to the enemy; but he didn't get pulled. That's great.

I don't even know why you brought it up here. All I was doing was letting the poster know what it is that's doing this.

For clarity's sake I though I'd address this part of the above comment. I recently spent a few days farming RoA so I could do the setup with Master 2H/ROA/VD and then played with it in Cyro. At first I though RoA wasn't working as no one got pulled once I got to my target using Chains of Devastation.
But the way RoA actually works is the instant you do damage the people within 10m of you, not the target, are who get pulled. So using chains means the milisecond they hit the target everyone gets pulled to the DK from where it starts the gapclose, not where they finish. So if they guy pulled you with him as he gapclosed he didn't pull anyone to him at the target that wasn't with 10M of where he started. Another quirk of RoA is it doesn't stack everyone in one spot like DC, they get pulled directly to you from whichever direction and you wind up surrounded.
However on NB the gap closer doesn't damage until you arrive so you can more reliably stack a group and Soul Shred can damage and stun everyone surrounding you and give time to hit Brawler after. The penatration from Balorgh's combined with a high burst damage ulti and RoA's damage before brawler seemed just as, if not more effective, than DK corrosive's small dot and 100%pen. You don't need to fully pen everyone, just some and if they go VD takes the rest.

TechMaybeHic

Thecompton73 wrote: »

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

Amerises wrote: »

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

The build that's doing that is typically DK with Corrosive armor using a pull set to clump a mass of enemies into 1 brawler swing area. Corrosive gives them full penetration and the enemies clumped stacks that damage number

Don’t stand so close. Having done some bombing myself, it’s not as easy at it looks, and often, you’re so specialized it’s hard to be effective in much else. Spec’ing into something specifically shouldn’t be a bad thing, imho, and should be very steering in that one area.

Well; we can just ignore the fact that Rush of Agony radius seems to work from where the user starts the charge/teleport, all the way to where they finish, as I found as a guy came out of stealth right by me and gap closed a group maybe 20 meters away, pulled me right along with him.

After that; when a mass of enemies is fighting; do you think it's then wise to all be wide spread as they focus you down 1 by 1 as you all try to just range them failing to sustain focus damage on a single target due to no real targeting system? Then if you close in to fight melee; you're going to be in range of others to be pulled. If it's an organized ball group; usually they also have multiple to pull people from all over the place to one spot. And all this is without taking into account the chokepoints all over the place.

Maybe you could show me a video like one guy did where all he was doing was heavy lightning attacking from well away from the fight doing absolutely nothing to the enemy; but he didn't get pulled. That's great.

I don't even know why you brought it up here. All I was doing was letting the poster know what it is that's doing this.

For clarity's sake I though I'd address this part of the above comment. I recently spent a few days farming RoA so I could do the setup with Master 2H/ROA/VD and then played with it in Cyro. At first I though RoA wasn't working as no one got pulled once I got to my target using Chains of Devastation.
But the way RoA actually works is the instant you do damage the people within 10m of you, not the target, are who get pulled. So using chains means the milisecond they hit the target everyone gets pulled to the DK from where it starts the gapclose, not where they finish. So if they guy pulled you with him as he gapclosed he didn't pull anyone to him at the target that wasn't with 10M of where he started. Another quirk of RoA is it doesn't stack everyone in one spot like DC, they get pulled directly to you from whichever direction and you wind up surrounded.
However on NB the gap closer doesn't damage until you arrive so you can more reliably stack a group and Soul Shred can damage and stun everyone surrounding you and give time to hit Brawler after. The penatration from Balorgh's combined with a high burst damage ulti and RoA's damage before brawler seemed just as, if not more effective, than DK corrosive's small dot and 100%pen. You don't need to fully pen everyone, just some and if they go VD takes the rest.

That's interesting. Your experience explains a lot of what we've been seeing. The one that pulled me with him had others coming at that group from other angles which is why I was standing back out of it. Or so I thought.

El_Borracho

@Thecompton73 I've also noticed that if you run RoA on a back bar, but another set on the front, that delay can cause RoA to not fire. I was trying it out with a stamsorc and hit Crit Rush into a group, then immediately flipped to my front bar to do a little spin-to-win action. RoA did not consistently fire. I think I was switching too fast because if I hit a second skill or a LA ont he back bar, then switched, it worked.

YandereGirlfriend

El_Borracho wrote: »

@Thecompton73 I've also noticed that if you run RoA on a back bar, but another set on the front, that delay can cause RoA to not fire. I was trying it out with a stamsorc and hit Crit Rush into a group, then immediately flipped to my front bar to do a little spin-to-win action. RoA did not consistently fire. I think I was switching too fast because if I hit a second skill or a LA ont he back bar, then switched, it worked.

That's right, you can't animation cancel into a bar-swap and still get the proc to fire. And that's probably a good thing given that would only increase the potential for cheese, haha.

The bit about the set pulling players around you rather than to a single spot is rather important (and it's why you see people escape from follow-up attacks fairly regularly). However, Brawler hits in a 270 degree radius around the caster, so you're hitting everyone to your left, right, and center 90 degrees - even though the animation itself does not do a good job of conveying it. Only those in the rear 90 degree cone are safe from it.

Thecompton73

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

El_Borracho wrote: »

@Thecompton73 I've also noticed that if you run RoA on a back bar, but another set on the front, that delay can cause RoA to not fire. I was trying it out with a stamsorc and hit Crit Rush into a group, then immediately flipped to my front bar to do a little spin-to-win action. RoA did not consistently fire. I think I was switching too fast because if I hit a second skill or a LA ont he back bar, then switched, it worked.

That's right, you can't animation cancel into a bar-swap and still get the proc to fire. And that's probably a good thing given that would only increase the potential for cheese, haha.

The bit about the set pulling players around you rather than to a single spot is rather important (and it's why you see people escape from follow-up attacks fairly regularly). However, Brawler hits in a 270 degree radius around the caster, so you're hitting everyone to your left, right, and center 90 degrees - even though the animation itself does not do a good job of conveying it. Only those in the rear 90 degree cone are safe from it.

True, but if you don't hit an AOE stun on the people you pulled to you it's amazing how fast they all run away in different directions, so on my dk using corrosive and only having the single target stun it was really hard to get more than 1 swing on them still grouped. The original plan was to use DB after chains but it's cone is so forward facing you miss half the pull with it. Soul Shred is about the same damage, in full 360 and has the stun as well so you also hit the RoA damage more often.

Brrrofski

Where is that tooltip from? It's really low.

Plus, Master's 2h adds damage, then potential crits, different CP etc.

Thecompton73

Brrrofski wrote: »

Where is that tooltip from? It's really low.

Plus, Master's 2h adds damage, then potential crits, different CP etc.

All the sites that list tooltips give the base numbers for a CP160 character with no passives active, no gear and no cp slotted.

Xarc

eternal problem is DK, not the weapon...
but ZOS doesnt want to nerf it

Thecompton73

El_Borracho wrote: »

@Thecompton73 I've also noticed that if you run RoA on a back bar, but another set on the front, that delay can cause RoA to not fire. I was trying it out with a stamsorc and hit Crit Rush into a group, then immediately flipped to my front bar to do a little spin-to-win action. RoA did not consistently fire. I think I was switching too fast because if I hit a second skill or a LA ont he back bar, then switched, it worked.

Ahh, I don't think I was seeing that problem on my DK because the RoA countdown for damage also starts the instant your gapcloser does damage. So for me it was armed when I started to gapclose and I could swap cancel to my other bar without issue.
On my NB I had Soul Burst with the gapcloser on the BB to get the stun in right away before swapping so also didn't run into that issue.
But I get exactly what you are talking about having a problem with it. Any gapcloser that does it's damage upon reaching the target will have that issue, if you bar swap before the GC damage occurs you're not activating the pull or damage component when you get there.

Necrotech_Master

i also see some brawler bombers using dark convergence in place of rush of agony, i think because it has a wider radius on the pull and more dmg potential when it blows up

Thecompton73

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

i also see some brawler bombers using dark convergence in place of rush of agony, i think because it has a wider radius on the pull and more dmg potential when it blows up

The pull is supposedly the same distance, though with positional desync DC often seems like it's got a 20m range not 10. Of course if you're 9m away from a DK with chains that starts a gapclose in the opposite direction at someone 21m away you'll wind up moving nearly 30m by the time it finishes and you're pulled up right next to the DK with RoA.
The inner/outer ring of damage more often both hitting you rather than one or the other combined with per person scaling give Dark Conversion much more damage potential per proc. I'd guess most people only run RoA on Brawler Bombers for 2 reasons: 1) because you can proc it at a 3 to 1 rate vs DC and 2) It's damage is centered on you like proxy det so you can stay on top of targets to make them take the damage rather them rolling/sprinting/streaking out of a ground based AOE before it goes off.

Necrotech_Master

Thecompton73 wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

i also see some brawler bombers using dark convergence in place of rush of agony, i think because it has a wider radius on the pull and more dmg potential when it blows up

The pull is supposedly the same distance, though with positional desync DC often seems like it's got a 20m range not 10. Of course if you're 9m away from a DK with chains that starts a gapclose in the opposite direction at someone 21m away you'll wind up moving nearly 30m by the time it finishes and you're pulled up right next to the DK with RoA.
The inner/outer ring of damage more often both hitting you rather than one or the other combined with per person scaling give Dark Conversion much more damage potential per proc. I'd guess most people only run RoA on Brawler Bombers for 2 reasons: 1) because you can proc it at a 3 to 1 rate vs DC and 2) It's damage is centered on you like proxy det so you can stay on top of targets to make them take the damage rather them rolling/sprinting/streaking out of a ground based AOE before it goes off.

the other possible reason i could see is that dark convergence is light armor, while rush is medium armor

more light armor = more pen = more brawler dmg, which also might stack better with VD which is also light armor

and i double checked it and yes dark convergence does in fact have a larger radius (rush is 7 meter, dark is 10 meter), so not purely a positional desync pull problem

i would agree that rush could be used more because of the faster cooldown (8 sec cooldown on rush vs 25 sec on dark convergence), but if your a bomber timing your bombs, 25 sec should be more than enough time to give the enemies a chance to get a few rezzes in to re-bomb them

i usually see the dark convergence brawler bomb builds on night blades (who stealth up apply a ground effect and start brawling while everyone is pulled in so there is little warning its coming until the dark convergence goes off), and i think DKs tend to use the rush bomber builds more to keep the enemy close while they are running corrosive

Thecompton73

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

Thecompton73 wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

i also see some brawler bombers using dark convergence in place of rush of agony, i think because it has a wider radius on the pull and more dmg potential when it blows up

The pull is supposedly the same distance, though with positional desync DC often seems like it's got a 20m range not 10. Of course if you're 9m away from a DK with chains that starts a gapclose in the opposite direction at someone 21m away you'll wind up moving nearly 30m by the time it finishes and you're pulled up right next to the DK with RoA.
The inner/outer ring of damage more often both hitting you rather than one or the other combined with per person scaling give Dark Conversion much more damage potential per proc. I'd guess most people only run RoA on Brawler Bombers for 2 reasons: 1) because you can proc it at a 3 to 1 rate vs DC and 2) It's damage is centered on you like proxy det so you can stay on top of targets to make them take the damage rather them rolling/sprinting/streaking out of a ground based AOE before it goes off.

the other possible reason i could see is that dark convergence is light armor, while rush is medium armor

more light armor = more pen = more brawler dmg, which also might stack better with VD which is also light armor

and i double checked it and yes dark convergence does in fact have a larger radius (rush is 7 meter, dark is 10 meter), so not purely a positional desync pull problem

i would agree that rush could be used more because of the faster cooldown (8 sec cooldown on rush vs 25 sec on dark convergence), but if your a bomber timing your bombs, 25 sec should be more than enough time to give the enemies a chance to get a few rezzes in to re-bomb them

i usually see the dark convergence brawler bomb builds on night blades (who stealth up apply a ground effect and start brawling while everyone is pulled in so there is little warning its coming until the dark convergence goes off), and i think DKs tend to use the rush bomber builds more to keep the enemy close while they are running corrosive

Only the damage has a smaller radius, the pull is the same:
Rush of Agony
LEVEL 50 - CP 160
ESO-Hub.com
Type Dungeon
ArmorSet bonus
(2 items) Adds 129 Stamina Recovery
(3 items) Adds 129 Weapon and Spell Damage
(4 items) Adds 1487 Offensive Penetration
(5 items) When you deal direct damage with a Blink, Charge, Leap, Teleport, or Pull ability, pull enemies within 10 meters to you. After 2 seconds, deal 1705 Physical Damage to all enemies within 7 meters. This effect can occur once every 8 seconds and scales off the higher of your Weapon or Spell Damage. The pull will not apply Crowd Control Immunity to a target.

Necrotech_Master

Thecompton73 wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

Thecompton73 wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

i also see some brawler bombers using dark convergence in place of rush of agony, i think because it has a wider radius on the pull and more dmg potential when it blows up

The pull is supposedly the same distance, though with positional desync DC often seems like it's got a 20m range not 10. Of course if you're 9m away from a DK with chains that starts a gapclose in the opposite direction at someone 21m away you'll wind up moving nearly 30m by the time it finishes and you're pulled up right next to the DK with RoA.
The inner/outer ring of damage more often both hitting you rather than one or the other combined with per person scaling give Dark Conversion much more damage potential per proc. I'd guess most people only run RoA on Brawler Bombers for 2 reasons: 1) because you can proc it at a 3 to 1 rate vs DC and 2) It's damage is centered on you like proxy det so you can stay on top of targets to make them take the damage rather them rolling/sprinting/streaking out of a ground based AOE before it goes off.

the other possible reason i could see is that dark convergence is light armor, while rush is medium armor

more light armor = more pen = more brawler dmg, which also might stack better with VD which is also light armor

and i double checked it and yes dark convergence does in fact have a larger radius (rush is 7 meter, dark is 10 meter), so not purely a positional desync pull problem

i would agree that rush could be used more because of the faster cooldown (8 sec cooldown on rush vs 25 sec on dark convergence), but if your a bomber timing your bombs, 25 sec should be more than enough time to give the enemies a chance to get a few rezzes in to re-bomb them

i usually see the dark convergence brawler bomb builds on night blades (who stealth up apply a ground effect and start brawling while everyone is pulled in so there is little warning its coming until the dark convergence goes off), and i think DKs tend to use the rush bomber builds more to keep the enemy close while they are running corrosive

Only the damage has a smaller radius, the pull is the same:
Rush of Agony
LEVEL 50 - CP 160
ESO-Hub.com
Type Dungeon
ArmorSet bonus
(2 items) Adds 129 Stamina Recovery
(3 items) Adds 129 Weapon and Spell Damage
(4 items) Adds 1487 Offensive Penetration
(5 items) When you deal direct damage with a Blink, Charge, Leap, Teleport, or Pull ability, pull enemies within 10 meters to you. After 2 seconds, deal 1705 Physical Damage to all enemies within 7 meters. This effect can occur once every 8 seconds and scales off the higher of your Weapon or Spell Damage. The pull will not apply Crowd Control Immunity to a target.

i must have misread that part lol

i still see more dark convergence bombers than rush of agony bombers, probably cause dark convergence also applies that big snare to make it harder to get out of