End of the world plots

MreeBiPolar

In ESO, we have the whole main Three Banners War and Planemeld plot starting with the Emperor deserting, and, well, kind of ending-not-ending with the defeat of Molag Bal.

Then we have a whole lot of other plot arcs threatening all of {Tamriel; Nirn; whole creation}. Many of them start really low-key, like a completely local disturbance, but then unfold to be yet another end-of-the-world plot.

And that's all fine and fun until you put it into the perspective of IT ALL HAPPENING AT THE SAME TIME.

And then we have (had?) expansions which didn't have existential cataclysms coinciding with all the others. Take Orsinium (which I personally consider if not the best, then definitely one of the top three ESO plots), the Thieves' Guild and Dark Brotherhood questlines of old, and Murkmire of more recent. Somewhere along that line, the High Isle looked like it might possibly be something along those lines... Then Galen turned that into yet another global crisis. The Elsweyr has managed to walk the middle line, with the return of dragons (demon weapons) both tying in to the Three Banners War, not just being sideslapped onto the whole thing, and being only about 3 out of 5 stars on the "potential end of the world" scale.

So I am curious what you people all think about the plot arcs...

Oh, and I am intentionally do not include an "I don't care" option.

Northwold

I think ZOS have already said they have made a conscious decision to move away from those plots. Opinion around the time of Greymoor and Blackwood (between them probably the nadir of ESO, although I haven't played High Isle to comment -- because Greymoor and Blackwood were so bad I refused to pay for it) seemed to be that it was becoming utterly ridiculous and evidence of lazy writing that made it really hard to care.

Snamyap

Well, don't want to turn it into another one of those threads but the main issue I have with world ending story plots is that they are hard to take seriously considering you can kill all the plotters with one hand tied behind your back.

MreeBiPolar

I would have liked more (or even mostly) plots not turning into another end of the world prevention.

Northwold wrote: »

I think ZOS have already said they have made a conscious decision to move away from those plots. Opinion around the time of Greymoor and Blackwood (between them probably the nadir of ESO, although I haven't played High Isle to comment -- because Greymoor and Blackwood were so bad I refused to pay for it) seemed to be that it was becoming utterly ridiculous and evidence of lazy writing that made it really hard to care.

The main problem with Blackwood was not the plot though, but that it was released not even in beta quality, and half the issues have never been fixed... But yeah, it adds up.

Kendaric

I would have liked more (or even mostly) plots not turning into another end of the world prevention.

I hate "end of the world" plots, as they've been done to death. Not just in ESO, but in other MMORPGs and single-player RPGs as well.
Local stories/threats like we had in Orsinium, Dark Brotherhood and Thieves' Guild are much more interesting to me.

Snamyap

Northwold wrote: »

I think ZOS have already said they have made a conscious decision to move away from those plots.

From what I understand Necrom is another end of the world plot.

Northwold

Snamyap wrote: »

Northwold wrote: »

I think ZOS have already said they have made a conscious decision to move away from those plots.

From what I understand Necrom is another end of the world plot.

Oh dear. So that lasted all of one chapter!!

amig186

I would have liked more (or even mostly) plots not turning into another end of the world prevention.

Snamyap wrote: »

Northwold wrote: »

I think ZOS have already said they have made a conscious decision to move away from those plots.

From what I understand Necrom is another end of the world plot.

Necrom is a bit different, it's more about the beef between Daedric princes, with the end of the world just being a side effect to get the player character involved. But you do have to save Apocrypha so I guess it fits the bill.

bmnoble

I would have liked more (or even mostly) plots not turning into another end of the world prevention.

Kinda wish they would get on with the Three Banners war, either end it with the peace treaty plot line or show it failing and the start of some new offensive being launched by one of the Alliances.

Danikat

I'd like them to be spaced out a bit and I don't think it needs to break character continuity.

It makes sense that there's a lot going on in Tamriel right now because the Interregnum means there's no political stability, but also the Dragonfires are unlit so daedra can come and go at will and that is going to cause a lot of problems. The Daedric Princes don't seem the type to politely wait for each other to be finished and give the mortals some down time before the next one starts their plans.

But it is a bit much to say it's all happening within the space of one year. I think they could have done it like Guild Wars 2 where the story progresses in (roughly) real time, so the events of Necrom would be happening about 9 years after the Planemeld. It would still be a lot going on, but that's not unrealistic but it would give time for our character and other reoccurring characters to believably travel around and involve themselves in all these different events.

That doesn't have to mean locking players into doing the entire story in a fixed order either. Guild Wars 2 doesn't. If you want to you can jump straight into the newest expansion in that game just like you can with ESO. It does cause some continuity errors but the people who choose to do that don't seem to mind and people who do mind can choose to play it all in order, just like many people already do in ESO. I think it would be even less of a problem in ESO because (by design) references to past events are relatively minimal and in some cases the dialogue will change based on what you've done before, so the flexibility would still be there to write your own story if you want to.

The one problem I could see it causing, if the game goes on long enough, is that one of my characters is an older human. I've never settled on his exact age but he retired as a soldier a few years before the start of the game. If ESO keeps going long enough and events are happening in real time it could get to the point where it's unrealistic for him to still be fighting monsters, or even still alive. But that's a very long-term problem and could potentially be explained by the fact that he's the Vestige and effectively immortal. (I'm unclear on whether our characters can/will die of old age, but I could certainly believe reforming new bodies from Azureplasm whenever they're killed slows the process down at least.)

MreeBiPolar

I would have liked more (or even mostly) plots not turning into another end of the world prevention.

Northwold wrote: »

Snamyap wrote: »

Northwold wrote: »

I think ZOS have already said they have made a conscious decision to move away from those plots.

From what I understand Necrom is another end of the world plot.

Oh dear. So that lasted all of one chapter!!

It didn't. Galen was the end of the world plot, too...

Northwold

MreeBiPolar wrote: »

Northwold wrote: »

Snamyap wrote: »

Northwold wrote: »

I think ZOS have already said they have made a conscious decision to move away from those plots.

From what I understand Necrom is another end of the world plot.

Oh dear. So that lasted all of one chapter!!

It didn't. Galen was the end of the world plot, too...

I'll just cling to Jakarn in Elsweyr then. As far as I'm concerned the last bit of truly resonant storytelling I've come across in the game. What a shame.

I came across Darien's last book last night in Summerset. It's that kind of thing that makes big stories work. Character, character, character. Without it, no one is ever going to care.

ADarklore

I would have liked more (or even mostly) plots not turning into another end of the world prevention.

I still think Orsinium was one of the better stories, and wish they'd follow that same kind of format. People get extremely tired of all the 'doom and gloom, world ending' storylines... it'd rather get caught up in some local plots. Since I'm AD for life, I really love the Alliance storyline involving the Veiled Heritance. It felt like you were doing something good and that your participation mattered. In the 'world ending' storylines, it sometimes feels... too 'grand'. I much prefer the feel of being a local hero, than being the master of the universe kind of thing.

gabbo1928

I would have liked more (or even mostly) plots not turning into another end of the world prevention.

Yeah, the world-ending threats are overdone. I just recently replayed all of Vvardenfell, and I had forgotten about some of the great, story driven quests in that zone. Some of the side quests in that zone are better than the complete story arc of some of the more recent chapters.

Snamyap wrote: »

...the main issue I have with world ending story plots is that they are hard to take seriously considering you can kill all the plotters with one hand tied behind your back.

Personally, I would love to see more challenging "big boss" fights. Most of the time it's just "kill them the same way you do everything else, it just takes a little longer." Some of the fights try to spice things up, but it ends up being little more than "fight like you normally do and hit a synergy when you're told to" (ie, Mehrunes Dagon, and the final fight of High Isle).

There have been a couple of fight or other mechanics from the end of a story arc that were memorable. I thought the

escape from the rising lava

at the end of Galen was pretty cool. And the Markarth boss fight where you have to

use void portals to dodge attacks

added a nice, strategic element beyond just the usual synergy. I'd like to see more of that kind of thing. Environmental interactions and such. Even stuff like the troll boss in the Zenithar's Abbey public dungeon, where you can

destroy the support pillar in the center of the cave to stun him

is a nice change of pace.

Destai

I prefer these cataclysmic plots, but would have liked them to take place in different times, even if that breaks character continuity.

I don't mind the world-ending plots, as long as they're well written and have unique flavors. What I do mind is the insistency that it's all happening at once and how that impacts quest delivery.

DivineKitty

I prefer these cataclysmic plots, but would have liked them to take place in different times, even if that breaks character continuity.

I feel like having all of these horrible things happen in the same year is detrimental to the plot. It's unrealistic to think that one person can save every province in Tamriel multiple times in a single year, nor that every villain will decide all at once that "Oh yes, this is the perfect time to take over the world."

It's relevant to mention, some of the plot lines make more sense if there's been some time passed. The whole start of the Elswyer story is Abnur Tharn deciding that the Three Banner War has gone on for too long. At the time the game starts, the war has already lasted 2 years. If there was a year passing between every major DLC, then suddenly by the events of Wrathstone/ Elsweyr, it's been 7 years (Longer than World War 2 IRL), a long enough time to consider drastic measures like a long ago sealed magic weapon (Even if it turns out that it's not exactly a weapon).

By the time time High isle rolls around, it's been 10 years, and it makes even more sense that people would want to end the War (A plot point that I actually liked in theory before it got executed in the way it did.)

By making everything happen in one year, It accelerates all these events to an unrealistic degree. Trying all these drastic things to end a war make a lot less sense when it's only been happening for 2 years rather than 7, or 10.

Then you get to Malag Bal trying to eat the world, the Daedric Princes trying to coup each other, the attempted Vampire takeover of Skyrim, and Mehrunes Dagon making a play for all of Tamriel ( I could go into a whole other rant about THIS not making sense as a plot point, but for brevity's sake I wont') all within the span of a single year. These Daedra are terrible at time management, no wonder they keep failing.

This is like trying to fight World War 1, World War 2, Vietnam, and Afghanistan all at the same time. I don't know what will happen in Necrom, but I assume Mephala and/or Herma Mora could have waited a year, so my Vestige could take a few weeks off to go to the beach or something.

gabbo1928

I would have liked more (or even mostly) plots not turning into another end of the world prevention.

DivineKitty wrote: »

I feel like having all of these horrible things happen in the same year is detrimental to the plot.

Honestly, I've never thought of all the things in the game taking place simultaneously. I know ZOS has confirmed this externally, but if there's some sort of lore within the game itself that makes it clear that everything takes place in a single year, it went right over my head.

I only have one character that has done everything in the game "chronologically" in terms of when the content was released. My alts just do whatever to get skill points in any order that's convenient. Some of them have met Lyris or Sai in chapter content before doing the original main story. World bosses I kill are alive again in 10 minutes. The dungeon or trial I conquered is immediately in peril again once I leave. There are some things that are the way they are because that's the way they have to be for an MMORPG to function. I don't see the point in obsessing over the chronology. As far as I'm concerned, the chronology is whatever order the particular character I'm playing has done things in.

I_killed_Vivec

Destai wrote: »

I don't mind the world-ending plots, as long as they're well written and have unique flavors. What I do mind is the insistency that it's all happening at once and how that impacts quest delivery.

I choose to view it that while Ole Moley was staging his big take over plan, several other Daedric Princes were biding their time waiting to see how things would turn out... as each attempt was foiled because of the unforeseen intervention of a mild-mannered superhero

that would be me!

another has lined up their attempt, hoping to catch us on the hop, resting from our exertions defeating the previous assault.

It kind of makes sense, and certainly paints my character as the Hero of Nirn, repeatedly called upon to repel all these threats... certainly preferable to the mere "mercenary" of High Isle.

whitecrow

I would have liked more (or even mostly) plots not turning into another end of the world prevention.

This is (one of the reasons) why I think players should take their time, play in release sequence, and finish each zone before moving on to the next.

They claim to be moving away from the cataclysmic plots, but we'll see.

DMuehlhausen

What other plot lines are there though? they moved away from Daedric prince for a time. That's what RPG are though heros saving the world.

What are we suppose to have an expansion where we only save a dog and the trial is a bunch mean street cats?

LalMirchi

I would have liked more (or even mostly) plots not turning into another end of the world prevention.

The End Of The World cliche is a gimmick that unfortunately exists in may creative universes, not just ESO.

In-game I find that just as enervating as the lazy blinding flash to white in any and every scenario ad nauseum.

Something (World is Ending) that functions well can, when overused can be the very opposite, exciting content becoming rather boring/irritating when the creators cry wolf too often.

I prize and praise the very few plotlines that eschew this boring "Save the World" routine trope.

Wrothgar story is one of the highest dramatic peaks in this game for me.

Soarora

I don’t mind the end of the world plots, Nirn is pretty unstable. However, I like it when my Vestige isn’t expected to do all of the main quests. I spread them out amongst characters. Additionally, I refuse to believe everything happened in one year. Absolutely not.

CoolBlast3

I prefer these cataclysmic plots, but would have liked them to take place in different times, even if that breaks character continuity.

I don't mind the end of the world plots, I just hate ZOS' [bad word] decision to make it all take place in 2E 582.
Put a timeline in place so we can have real progression, change and character development. People who care about the story mostly already play in real order, people who don't care about the story won't care if there's a timeline in place anyways.

NOTE: I'm not saying to lock quests, let people play out of order still, but for the love of gods stop MAKING us ask incredibly dumb questions like "What's the Alliance War" which was a mandatory dialogue option in High Isle's main quest. Allow characters to actually evolve and change. Eveli Sharp Arrow's entire arc in Orsinium about realizing adventuring isn't just fun and games was completely ignored in Blackwood, turning her into an even more immature character than at the start of Orsinium!
Let us evolve, let the world change! It's a bloody ROLE-PLAYING game.

TaSheen

Soarora wrote: »

I don’t mind the end of the world plots, Nirn is pretty unstable. However, I like it when my Vestige isn’t expected to do all of the main quests. I spread them out amongst characters. Additionally, I refuse to believe everything happened in one year. Absolutely not.

My approach exactly.

ZigoSid

I would have liked more (or even mostly) plots not turning into another end of the world prevention.

I'm okay with end of the world plots but please, diversify them, it's always destroying or controlling only for the sake of being evil.

Like High-isle, it could have been for rebuilding something better, like it was hinted with all that "people vs kings/nobles" starting plot. But no, in the end it was just another cliché ego trip "HAHAHAHA I'LL BE THE NEW EVIL EMPEROR AND DOMINATE YOU ALL !"

Mesite

I like that 2E583 (or at least 2E58x) is when everything collides, crashes and burns.

I thought 2E583 was the code name of an asteroid about to hit the real world, but I've looked it up and it's the year in ESO.

This sort of thing happens all the time, people just don't know. They just don't want you to know.

I'd rather the events didn't involve Lyris though. I find her intimidating. Maybe more intimidating than the daedric princes, or dragons.

chessalavakia_ESO

I would have liked more (or even mostly) plots not turning into another end of the world prevention.

Northwold wrote: »

I think ZOS have already said they have made a conscious decision to move away from those plots. Opinion around the time of Greymoor and Blackwood (between them probably the nadir of ESO, although I haven't played High Isle to comment -- because Greymoor and Blackwood were so bad I refused to pay for it) seemed to be that it was becoming utterly ridiculous and evidence of lazy writing that made it really hard to care.

I think that might have been a mostly marketing/messaging statement rather than the truth.

High Isle Spoilers:

A fair portion of the plot is about securing the Alliance leaders. Had the player failed to do so, it's likely that at least the Aldmeri Dominion and possibly the Daggerfall Covenant would fall which would massively alter the world dynamics.

Galen Spoilers:

It turns out that the plan of the leadership of the players was to turn the Alliances to ash and cinder.

PTS Necrom Main Story Spoilers:

The scale is arguably larger than many of the prior events.

My impression is that ZOS is aware the much of the audience or at least the vocal audience say that they don't want constant massive scale events and thus the markets/messages at times moving away from that.

But, I think they run into enough challenges with immersion/appeal that it's questionable if they can actually reliably land smaller scale stories and thus they aren't aiming for them as much.

In both SWTOR and ESO, I find that much of the time I spend most of my time on the main quests instead of the side quests when I actually spent much of the preceding single player games on side quests rather than the main quest.

I'm unsure how much of that is because of the inherent design limitations of the MMO vs the design failing to adapt to the shift in audiences.

kargen27

I know it is kind of nitpicky but I see most the plots as alter the world plots and not end the world plots.

I don't like comparing the game to real world but if you look at the real world there seems to always be a multitude of world (or at very least country) changing plots/movements happening on any given day.

Seems natural in game that several charismatic NPCs in their corner of the world with a sense of self grandeur would all simultaneously have their grand ideal and go about making it happen independent of all the others out across the land with their own schemes.

Carcamongus

I don't mind end-of-the-world plots, as long as they're done well. My toon's a mercenary and saving the world is good business, plus the urgency of avoiding a major cataclysm can add to the story. Another reason I like these plots is, well, that I find it funny how almost every year some fool thinks they can destroy Tamriel/Nirn/[insert place here]. This even inspired me to write a story about a fantasy world where no one was trying to destroy anything. After a while, my reaction whenever I see some new villain wants to destroy the world is "hold my beer".

ZOS_Hadeostry

Greetings,

After further review we have decided to move this thread to a category we think is more appropriate for this topic, as it has to do with the story of the game.

Thank you for your understanding

Lugaldu

I prefer these cataclysmic plots, but would have liked them to take place in different times, even if that breaks character continuity.

I like it when the story develops in a classic way, from a harmless bandit attack through various entanglements to the big dramatic climax. But the concept of everything happening at the same time is unfortunate.