Hrothgar's vs Vicious Death

Zama666

Hiya,

I am running Hrothgar's with a Stamplar.
5pc
Stunning or immobilizing your enemy causes them to burst with frost magic, applying the Chilled status effect and dealing 13% of their total Physical and Spell Resistance as Frost Damage to themselves and enemies within 8 meters of them. This effect can occur once every 7 seconds, ignores Spell Resistance, and cannot be blocked.

But Vicious Death has pummeled me quite a lot:
5pc
Adds 1487 Offensive Penetration, When you kill a Player, they violently explode for 3322 Flame damage to all other enemies in a 5 meter radius. This effect scales off the higher of your Weapon or Spell Damage.

Is this because VD scales off higher damage? And how much does it scale up by?

I am guessing 13% of resistances is much less that scaled damage for HC?

Please advise, Wise ones!

Tankz,

Z

Janni

I don't think anyone runs hrothgar's anymore. When they fixed the bug they also nerfed it so it now does very poor damage. For example, most people only have between 25-30k armor but even if they had 50k armor it would hit for 6.5k and then be halved to 3.25k. That's really not that impressive esepcially for every 7 seconds.

Vicious death on the other hand scales with YOUR stats and it can get quite high if you time it right. My warden runs it and she's pretty tanky and even then the tooltip easily gets up to 23k-25k when I have all of my buffs up and I'm ready to go in for a kill. Bombers that run pure damage setups probably get way higher than that.

OBJnoob

@Zama666 I remember replying to your last question about whether Plaguebreak would be better than Hrothgars.

I think it's important for you to describe your playstyle and character build in order to get an accurate answer.

Vicious Death and Plaguebreak are widely considered better sets than Hrothgar. That doesn't mean they are always better. I had a magden that used Hrothgars very effectively in high mmr BGs. It might not be meta, but it's more viable than people think.

Put it this way... If you don't frequently fight 2+ people and manage to kill 1 then VD is useless.

Hrothgars does more than just damage. It also applies Chilled to everyone effected-- making them do 5% less damage for 4 seconds. If you use a Destro Staff to proc it then it also guarantees Minor Brittle which makes them take 10% more crit damage.

Are you still using a stamplar with a resto Staff and a sword and shield? And mostly wanting a set to use in large Group v Group fights? Because if so, it seems to me like you aren't playing a high powered DD at all, and I don't think VD would be any good at all. What you could do is swap your resto staff for an Ice Staff, rely on blocking and your templar heals +vigor, and think of yourself more as a CC/debuff tank.

Thecompton73

the difference is pretty simple really. Vicious Death does a lot more damage because you have to kill a player to proc it vs Hrothgar which only requires someone gets stunned or rooted to proc it.

Zama666

This was REALLY helpful.

My first issue is actually being able to kill anyone in PvP on my own. I have no burst damage. And really am still terrible at it.
@OBJnoob true, a DD I am NOT! I am trying to be tankier to just stay alive. I like this idea "CC/debuff tank. "

Playstyle. I usually run with random groups, otherwise am running between keeps to help take or defend them. Hoping to add a little to the group damage.

Sword and Shield really helps keep me alive. Resto, helps keep me alive and helps others.

I might try the ice staff variant for the brittle.

Is there a similar set to Hrothgar's than would recommended from that I have shared.

This is why I thought of PlagueBreak...

ESO has a zillion sets (which I love) and rely on you kind folks to be in the know....(or just less attractive to death in pvp)

Tankz Again!

Z

Thecompton73

Even if you can't kill someone on your own don't totally rule out giving Vicious Death a try. I have it on my Warden and just use him as a zerg surfing beast with lots of AOE damage including soul splitting trap, growing swarm, deep fissure, arctic blast, and northern storm. With all that going in a big fight all you need is for one of those sources to get the final tick of damage in on someone and Boom goes VD.

Necrotech_Master

i would agree with the others that hrothgar is not that great anymore (because they nerfed it and fixed a bug with it, which ended up dropping the dmg by 75%)

the only players that it does sufficient dmg to would be mega tanks but most of them are block tanks or running immovable pots which makes them very hard to CC to actually proc the effect

in order for this set to do any reasonable dmg the target would have to be running almost 50k armor (50k spell and 50k physical resistance, would give a sum of 100k, 13% of which is 13000, then divide by 2 for battle spirit which means its like 6500 dmg at absolute best case, which is only slightly better than occult overload)

like others said, many are running less than that and making it up with flat mitigation instead of armor (probably in the 20-30k range of armor)

OBJnoob

Nobody is wrong in what they're saying.

But.

Try all 3. With your character how he currently is. And you'll see that Hrothgars is the right choice. Plaguebreak might give you satisfaction once or twice a night. Vicious Death (for you,) will feel like nothing at all. Hrothgars will happen every time you press the button.

It isn't just about the 5-piece, it's about your playstyle, and the other bonuses. And to a certain extent your playstyle. You're using a character with two defensive weapons. You say you struggle to kill people. You like the idea of CC/debuff tank.

Do you want more crit and penetration on your backbar? Or do you want health and armor? It's a no brainer.

If you want to know which set is best in a vacuum then Hrothgars is the worst. No doubt. If you want help surviving, to feel like you contribute to damage in some small way, and to SEE your gear working for you while you continue to learn to play then it's Hrothgars.

I'm not trying to convince anyone that Hrothgars is good. But everyone else is recommending you put a glass cannon bomb set on a SnB/Resto Templar. They're completely ignoring you.

If you want to completely redo you're character then listen to them. If you want to keep doing what you're doing use Hrothgars. There's no point trying to stack damage on a toon that'll never "get there" anyway.

Janni

OBJnoob wrote: »

Nobody is wrong in what they're saying.

But.

Try all 3. With your character how he currently is. And you'll see that Hrothgars is the right choice. Plaguebreak might give you satisfaction once or twice a night. Vicious Death (for you,) will feel like nothing at all. Hrothgars will happen every time you press the button.

It isn't just about the 5-piece, it's about your playstyle, and the other bonuses. And to a certain extent your playstyle. You're using a character with two defensive weapons. You say you struggle to kill people. You like the idea of CC/debuff tank.

Do you want more crit and penetration on your backbar? Or do you want health and armor? It's a no brainer.

If you want to know which set is best in a vacuum then Hrothgars is the worst. No doubt. If you want help surviving, to feel like you contribute to damage in some small way, and to SEE your gear working for you while you continue to learn to play then it's Hrothgars.

I'm not trying to convince anyone that Hrothgars is good. But everyone else is recommending you put a glass cannon bomb set on a SnB/Resto Templar. They're completely ignoring you.

If you want to completely redo you're character then listen to them. If you want to keep doing what you're doing use Hrothgars. There's no point trying to stack damage on a toon that'll never "get there" anyway.

That's a pretty decent point you make there. It seems some of your advice comes from insight you apparently have from other posts. It might be better if the OP posted in this thread what type of playstyle they are going for. For example, solo troll tank? Open world all-arounder, Zerg-surfer brawler (my personal favorite, and I don't care what hate I get from other for it , smallgroup support tank? Ballgrouping?

OBJnoob

Thank you. And yes, I'm drawing some information from another thread OP made recently asking the same question about plaguebreak instead of VD.

Thecompton73

OBJnoob wrote: »

Nobody is wrong in what they're saying.

But.

Try all 3. With your character how he currently is. And you'll see that Hrothgars is the right choice. Plaguebreak might give you satisfaction once or twice a night. Vicious Death (for you,) will feel like nothing at all. Hrothgars will happen every time you press the button.

It isn't just about the 5-piece, it's about your playstyle, and the other bonuses. And to a certain extent your playstyle. You're using a character with two defensive weapons. You say you struggle to kill people. You like the idea of CC/debuff tank.

Do you want more crit and penetration on your backbar? Or do you want health and armor? It's a no brainer.

If you want to know which set is best in a vacuum then Hrothgars is the worst. No doubt. If you want help surviving, to feel like you contribute to damage in some small way, and to SEE your gear working for you while you continue to learn to play then it's Hrothgars.

I'm not trying to convince anyone that Hrothgars is good. But everyone else is recommending you put a glass cannon bomb set on a SnB/Resto Templar. They're completely ignoring you.

If you want to completely redo you're character then listen to them. If you want to keep doing what you're doing use Hrothgars. There's no point trying to stack damage on a toon that'll never "get there" anyway.

Who said anything about a glass cannon? Literally no one proposed that. A couple of us suggested that VD is pretty strong even when you're not on a glass cannon bomber character. You can use VD on weapons and Jewelry and then run all heavy if desired and still get a fairly high tooltip number.
Obviously by asking about the set the OP is already considering switching his set up and all we're doing is telling him is it could be viable to do.
And if seeing the gear working is that important there is no more beautiful sight then getting the last tick of damage on someone in a group and watching them explode to take out 5-6 others with them.

Amerises

@Zama666 why don’t you tell everyone what kind of build you’d like, and how you’d like to use it. You’ve said no to a lot of advice over two threads.

Ultimately, if you are dead set in Hrothgars, using a frost staff vs. sword and shield is going to be better if you’re trying to help on defending or attacking a keep because you’ll be able to buff/cc better. You also sound like you don’t want to use a frost staff though? So what are you trying to do, and what are you not willing to do?

OBJnoob

Listen I mean no offense to anyone specifically. Not trying to put words in anyone's mouth or anything. I just feel like these are cookie cutter answers not at all tailored to the OP's specific needs.

If you struggle to kill people VD isn't useful. If you struggle to survive, so you opt for two defensive weapons, then VD is even less useful because it feeds into an inability to kill and therefore renders the proc condition impossible to meet. It also doesn't help you survive.

VD would be an awful choice. Plaguebreak would be better. Hrothgars is what the occasion calls for. Now there may be another set entirely that would be better than all 3 but that's not on the table right now.

@Zama666 If you end up trying all 3, please touch back and let me know if I was right.

ZOS_Suserial

Greetings,

We've removed some non-constructive comments, It helps prevent continued disruption and reduces the chance of the thread being closed. Please remember that while it’s all right to disagree or even debate with each other, provoking conflict, baiting, inciting, mocking, etc. is never acceptable. This is a friendly reminder to remain on topic and civil when posting.


Thank you for your understanding.

Zama666

Amerises wrote: »

@Zama666 why don’t you tell everyone what kind of build you’d like, and how you’d like to use it. You’ve said no to a lot of advice over two threads.

Ultimately, if you are dead set in Hrothgars, using a frost staff vs. sword and shield is going to be better if you’re trying to help on defending or attacking a keep because you’ll be able to buff/cc better. You also sound like you don’t want to use a frost staff though? So what are you trying to do, and what are you not willing to do?

hmm...I am not sure what kind of play style I have but will try to describe it.

I rarely group in PvP. I help in Keep defense and when attacking enemy keeps. I will run off an knock of a resource by myself.
I do regularly get killed by ball groups. 1V1 - I rarely win. I might be able to hang out for a while, but eventually better player do me in. (I have a lot of issues aiming at my moving opponent on a PC using an Xbox controller)

So I do most things in PvP, but usually not grouped.

I first tried running Deadland Demolisher and Hrothgar's with Oakensoul. DD was to increase my damage...but it was not enough.

So I am trying to survive and get better.

I did switch to Frost Staff, it is helping me kill more...but 1v1...I have to 'git gud'.

I would like to stick close to my setup and not redo a character. I like the Stamplar, and want to improve this first.

Did any of that help?

Tankz again!

Necrotech_Master

Zama666 wrote: »

Amerises wrote: »

@Zama666 why don’t you tell everyone what kind of build you’d like, and how you’d like to use it. You’ve said no to a lot of advice over two threads.

Ultimately, if you are dead set in Hrothgars, using a frost staff vs. sword and shield is going to be better if you’re trying to help on defending or attacking a keep because you’ll be able to buff/cc better. You also sound like you don’t want to use a frost staff though? So what are you trying to do, and what are you not willing to do?

hmm...I am not sure what kind of play style I have but will try to describe it.

I rarely group in PvP. I help in Keep defense and when attacking enemy keeps. I will run off an knock of a resource by myself.
I do regularly get killed by ball groups. 1V1 - I rarely win. I might be able to hang out for a while, but eventually better player do me in. (I have a lot of issues aiming at my moving opponent on a PC using an Xbox controller)

So I do most things in PvP, but usually not grouped.

I first tried running Deadland Demolisher and Hrothgar's with Oakensoul. DD was to increase my damage...but it was not enough.

So I am trying to survive and get better.

I did switch to Frost Staff, it is helping me kill more...but 1v1...I have to 'git gud'.

I would like to stick close to my setup and not redo a character. I like the Stamplar, and want to improve this first.

Did any of that help?

Tankz again!

sounds kind of like what i do on my stam NB i use for pvp, i rarely group but can take resources, 1v1 fights can be kind of iffy unless the opponent is not very good

im currently running sellistrix + plaguebreak + wild hunt ring for the speed, 2pc of agility for the big stam boost, front bar perfected maelstrom 2h, and back bar is perfected blackrose bow

my front bar is dark cloak (for a heal and minor protection), stampede, killers blade (execute), surprise attack (spammable), caltrops (aoe debuffing)

back bar is lethal arrow (or silver shards if the lag is too high), poison injection, resolving vigor, magnum shot (knockback and gets dot from blackrose), and assassins will

i know this is about as far from meta as you can possibly get, but it works for me lol

my suggestion for your playstyle is to do what works for you and that pvp is knowing when you need to hang back and support with siege, where you need to be to provide your faction support

you could run hrothgars if you wanted to spam the javelin (unblockable and dmg ignores resistance) and time its use with the meteor + jesus beam

the meteor itself could also trigger hrothgar too for extra spike dmg

in my case i use sellistrix because its short timer and the stuns make people waste resources ccbreaking, plaguebreak for the disease status (minor defile) and the explode on death/purge and virtually no cooldown (it has a per target cooldown now, but thats still fine)

Janni

@Zama666 So it sounds like you just want kind of a run-of-the-mill zerg surfing build that can provide support for others. It is very very difficult to use sets that provide specific debuffs as a supporting role without actually being grouped with several other like-minded people that have practiced together before. At best you can hope to annoy the occational X'er while they dodge the 15 others chasing after them. Really, i'd say your best bet is to go as a healer.

Regardless of your class you can easily pop on something like rallying cry and whatever else you want with a resto staff on your backbar and stay just behind the front line pushes, trying to spot people that look like they are in trouble or are going in hot. As an added benefit this will help you to learn how to spot dangerous situations ahead of time after some practice! You can also really help out when defending keeps by throwing heals into hot spots near doorways or flags where your allies will be taking heavy damage while they try to fight hard. It might not seem like the most glorious thing but trust me, it really really does make a difference. Also consider playing a sorc if you aren't one. Streak and Negate are two of the biggest game changers in big fights over flags and one well-timed negate or counter-negate on a keep's back flag can completely turn the tide of the fight. DK's can have a similar effect with Standard of Might and talons.

Alternatively you could stock up on lots of siege and put on a set like Elfbane and defend that way. Take some time to learn how to quickly and *properly* set up siege defenses inside of keeps (there are lots of place people don't even realize can be hit that stop intruders from taking any cover) and you can easily be worth more than the 5 people running oils through the grates above the doors or the 20 simply spamming light attack from the roof. Even in open field you can often be useful since a couple of well places meatbags can be used to subtly guide groups of players into traps where you have other siege waiting to deploy. It takes some practice and a bit of luck but it can pay off. And even if the enemy gets wise and charges right at you that just means you were a threat and now the heat is off of your allies.

Whatever you choose remember to have fun with it most of all. Good luck!

Zama666

@Janni I think Healers are the BEST. As for glory, I think keeping you alliance alive has more personal merit for me. Especially when I see someone fighting the unkillable DK, tag teamed or the hated NB, and you come along and heal them to victory.

I never looked at Elf Bane, and never realized what a Fire Ballista and that set could do!!!

Unfortunately, for now, I am a Templar thru and thru...one that dies a lot, but this is where I am going to stay - and that aligns with the healing line or at least staying alive (yes, queue the BeeGees)

Maybe I need to find a PvP guild that is not too serious, and friendly.

Thanks for the thoughts!