new meta PVP : 50k health REALLY ?

Xarc

40k
45k
50k health
Really ?

KiltMaster

tank meta really in swing right now for sure

sunshineflame

Only 50k health in PvP...what are you, a glass canon?

Turtle_Bot

sunshineflame wrote: »

Only 50k health in PvP...what are you, a glass canon?

you only reach 100k health WITH goliath form? what are you, a ganker?

In all seriousness though, the tank meta is getting a bit absurd lately, especially on PC EU where 40k health is the new 30k health and you breath a sigh of relief when you see someone with 35k health or less since they might actually be killable (maybe)

Vulkunne

50k? Goodness gracious. 50k is the door fee my friend.

ZOS_Hadeostry

Greetings,

After further review we have decided to move this thread to a category we think is more appropriate for this topic.

Thank you for your understanding

Xarc

50k is extreme and I saw it, but it's still rare.

But actually there is a lot of people 40k in pvp.

The question isnt "how about tank meta" since it is like that for many years now, but why does ZOS let this happen ?

Tommy_The_Gun

People say that tanky builds are the problem, but the thing is that tanky builds are for the most part a result of a high burst meta. Remember, you can not have fun if you are dead. So if you have things Iike Corrosive or glass canon duo-gank setups - people will go more & more tanky. It is kinda like arm's race. People are just adapting.

AndreNoir

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

People say that tanky builds are the problem, but the thing is that tanky builds are for the most part a result of a high burst meta.

The problem is there is no high burst meta. There are either endless dot-like proks like Way of Fire and master duals or either 40k+ hp aerobic meat of bags with charge/ultimate/execute spam cycle

Afterip

Stinging Slashes: (2 items) Increases the damage Twin Slashes deals by 1635 more damage for each hit of the initial attack and bleed.
(Perfected) Grants up to 526 Critical Chance.

In my opinion 1600 damage to each tick is too much. Without cleans you will be melted and what can give you cleanse, ahh Mara can...

Jammy420

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

People say that tanky builds are the problem, but the thing is that tanky builds are for the most part a result of a high burst meta. Remember, you can not have fun if you are dead. So if you have things Iike Corrosive or glass canon duo-gank setups - people will go more & more tanky. It is kinda like arm's race. People are just adapting.

This is it right here. If ZoS wouldnt coddle the burstees, we wouldnt have a tank meta. However the power creep has been largely ignored, so we have tanks everywhere. I remember when Morrowind came out and people were running around in light armor damage builds who could heal nicely, but not too much. All but a distant memory now. Now its proc central, and zos is just allowing and encouraging it. So there really is no other choice.

Jammy420

AndreNoir wrote: »

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

People say that tanky builds are the problem, but the thing is that tanky builds are for the most part a result of a high burst meta.

The problem is there is no high burst meta. There are either endless dot-like proks like Way of Fire and master duals or either 40k+ hp aerobic meat of bags with charge/ultimate/execute spam cycle

Oh no, there is something aside from burst! How dare we use dots!

Xarc

We also need to know that the game is 9 years old and people now are good at pvp.

When you're watching old videos of pvp gameplay (6-8 years old) you can see ennemies who dont know how to fight.

Today players do a lot of damages, know combos, use stun/dodges/block/bash/cc/debuff and buffs themselves.
We now have a bunch of sets giving a lot of damages/penetration and ways to pass enemy's huge armor .

And the counter part of this is beeing tanky with high HP to expect survive more than 10sec in the rude world of pvp.

xDeusEJRx

Xarc wrote: »

We also need to know that the game is 9 years old and people now are good at pvp.

When you're watching old videos of pvp gameplay (6-8 years old) you can see ennemies who dont know how to fight.

Today players do a lot of damages, know combos, use stun/dodges/block/bash/cc/debuff and buffs themselves.
We now have a bunch of sets giving a lot of damages/penetration and ways to pass enemy's huge armor .

And the counter part of this is beeing tanky with high HP to expect survive more than 10sec in the rude world of pvp.

A lot of what you said is attributed to procs primarily lol. High hp survival builds are using mara esque proc builds. The damage combos are centered around proc damage, etc etc. Not to mention the knight slayer Empower heavy attack people running around IC. So I would hardly attribute the state of the game to "people know how to fight", as opposed to people knowing how to cheese the game heavily.

There are more proc heavy builds running than not.

Udrath

1000 base line weapon/spell damage and baseline recovery is why you see this, from update 27. Max stamina and magicka works only for a few builds. You can have 40k hp and 7k weapon/spell damage while having barely 20k stamina or magicka.

You can put 64 points into health, back bar wretched vitality with all infused jewerly, front bar something like clever alchemist, and use balrogh and markyn or swap markyn out for a master weapon while using tri-stat food.

SkaraMinoc

Warden

• Trial by Fire
• Plague Doctor
• Oakensoul
• 64 health
• Imperial

= 50k health in Battlegrounds, 35k armor, 12k Polar Wind non-crit

This is the baseline Warden troll build. Add Major Protection, Vamp Stage 3, Vamp Ult, etc for the memes.

Indigogo

It's also a symptom of the games horrendous performance. I had to shelve all my squishy, high risk/high reward builds because they simply became impossible to play.
Can't run that tight line when skills don't fire, when you're constantly being desynced.
You're not just building to fight other people anymore, you have to build to fight the game too.

Now, performance got so bad I had to quit altogether but I can see why people are building so thicc.

Sluggy

Jammy420 wrote: »

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

People say that tanky builds are the problem, but the thing is that tanky builds are for the most part a result of a high burst meta. Remember, you can not have fun if you are dead. So if you have things Iike Corrosive or glass canon duo-gank setups - people will go more & more tanky. It is kinda like arm's race. People are just adapting.

This is it right here. If ZoS wouldnt coddle the burstees, we wouldnt have a tank meta. However the power creep has been largely ignored, so we have tanks everywhere. I remember when Morrowind came out and people were running around in light armor damage builds who could heal nicely, but not too much. All but a distant memory now. Now its proc central, and zos is just allowing and encouraging it. So there really is no other choice.

Exactly, it used to be that 7k-10k pen, 2.k5 spell or 3k weapon damage, and 22k hp were plenty to function with. But stats have gotten completely out of control and sustain is infinite.

What they fail to recognize is that damage and defense are both skyhigh so it's like balancing two elephants on a seesaw and lag is the guy standing the middle waiting to fire a pistol into the air - one is going to slam to the ground pretty quick.

People complain about time-to-kill being too high. It's not. It's like two seconds. Maybe three. Sometimes one. Time to kill is insanely low but there is no sense of inevitability. No combat entropy. Fights can instantly be reset at anytime with no significant hit to sustain which means they can continue indefinitely.

LittlePinkDot

Sluggy wrote: »

Jammy420 wrote: »

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

People say that tanky builds are the problem, but the thing is that tanky builds are for the most part a result of a high burst meta. Remember, you can not have fun if you are dead. So if you have things Iike Corrosive or glass canon duo-gank setups - people will go more & more tanky. It is kinda like arm's race. People are just adapting.

This is it right here. If ZoS wouldnt coddle the burstees, we wouldnt have a tank meta. However the power creep has been largely ignored, so we have tanks everywhere. I remember when Morrowind came out and people were running around in light armor damage builds who could heal nicely, but not too much. All but a distant memory now. Now its proc central, and zos is just allowing and encouraging it. So there really is no other choice.

Exactly, it used to be that 7k-10k pen, 2.k5 spell or 3k weapon damage, and 22k hp were plenty to function with. But stats have gotten completely out of control and sustain is infinite.

What they fail to recognize is that damage and defense are both skyhigh so it's like balancing two elephants on a seesaw and lag is the guy standing the middle waiting to fire a pistol into the air - one is going to slam to the ground pretty quick.

People complain about time-to-kill being too high. It's not. It's like two seconds. Maybe three. Sometimes one. Time to kill is insanely low but there is no sense of inevitability. No combat entropy. Fights can instantly be reset at anytime with no significant hit to sustain which means they can continue indefinitely.

But running out of resources sucks.

CompM4s

In cyrodiil its easier to stack health and use siege to win. Unfortunately thats just where it is.

Mayrael

This is the result of complex changes that ESO has undergone, as well as the community. Nowadays, most players don't want to die in PvP because we have the mentality of "if I didn't die, I didn't lose" or "if you can't kill me, you're not a better player than me", and if someone loses, it's the fault of the person who defeated them because "they cheated", "used cheese meta", etc. Most players don't want to learn from their failures, but every defeat is a lesson in humility and the best way to be among the best, just ask yourself the right questions.

As for the changes in ESO, Magicka and Stamina have a minimal impact on damage, but through hybridization, we have the ability to divide our skills into two separate pools, which allows for easier resource management. There are also many skills and sets that scale with max HP rather than spell/weapon damage, which allows for the creation of characters with a large HP pool, giving better resistance to ganks and burst damage than high armor values, as even with sets like Balorgh, Titanborn, etc. or skills like Onslaught or Corrosive Armor, we still have a good chance of survival. Additionally, thanks to easier sustain, we can still deal a lot of damage by transferring some stats to spell/weapon damage.

TLDR;
The mentality of players has changed, for most, survival is more important than defeating other players.

Hybridization has made investing in a single resource less important and allows us to achieve the above goal while maintaining some flexibility in dealing damage.

Vaqual

I always find it funny how people call 2 abilities and a light attack a "combo" in this game as if they achieved anything that required skill. As long as you can oneshot people from 30k+ with "combos" like spec bow + anything, allowing you to slot 25 defensive abilities at the same time, the only alternative to these kind of builds will be setups where you can survive the burst at least once...people don't usually go into PvP with the intention of ending up as the fodder in a PvP montage.
Or the high skill play of having DK sustain and just skipping the sustain mechanic and equipping damage instead of that (and instead of pen). You want to survive one "whip combo" from that guy jumping you? Better have more than 20k health.

Just let these bulky builds exist. The balance is maybe not great, but it is also not the worst. You have enough options and you don't have to choose the most OP stuff to have fun, as a lot of sets are actually balanced, except for a few overperformers. Ideally they should reign those in (after Mara's, now they only have to get Stinging Slashes , Rallying Cry and put an Immunity after Rush of Agony, and I think we will be kind of ok in terms of sets).

And don't get me wrong, I have nothing against bombers who oneshot people, at least they can accept their death after their 15x mega kill. Survive one "1vX dk" or "1vX sorc" or "1vX nb" burst and they have to cry about the tank meta.

Xarc

xDeusEJRx wrote: »

Xarc wrote: »

We also need to know that the game is 9 years old and people now are good at pvp.

When you're watching old videos of pvp gameplay (6-8 years old) you can see ennemies who dont know how to fight.

Today players do a lot of damages, know combos, use stun/dodges/block/bash/cc/debuff and buffs themselves.
We now have a bunch of sets giving a lot of damages/penetration and ways to pass enemy's huge armor .

And the counter part of this is beeing tanky with high HP to expect survive more than 10sec in the rude world of pvp.

A lot of what you said is attributed to procs primarily lol. High hp survival builds are using mara esque proc builds. The damage combos are centered around proc damage, etc etc. Not to mention the knight slayer Empower heavy attack people running around IC. So I would hardly attribute the state of the game to "people know how to fight", as opposed to people knowing how to cheese the game heavily.

There are more proc heavy builds running than not.

Sorry but we can see all what I say in Ravenwatch where there's no proc sets and no cp.

There's also the finisher's problem in PVP :
many finishers are doing 400% damages at 50% HP. SO if you're 40k, 45k, you have a better margin

Again, this is ZOS will.

NordSwordnBoard

The enchants and attributes go into health if not needed elsewhere. What scales off max mag/stam that's better than the bigger health pool? I admit I beefed up my sorc and I'm enjoying it thanks to new shield scaling. Hardly anything at all scaled off max health when I started playing. Almost nothing useful scales off max mag/stam now.

Kartalin

SkaraMinoc wrote: »

Warden

• Trial by Fire
• Plague Doctor
• Oakensoul
• 64 health
• Imperial

= 50k health in Battlegrounds, 35k armor, 12k Polar Wind non-crit

This is the baseline Warden troll build. Add Major Protection, Vamp Stage 3, Vamp Ult, etc for the memes.

I've run similar in no cp IC for the lulz, with the alliance support skill slotted for major prot etc. Didn't think of being a vamp for the ult though, that would be even more ridiculous lol. Just a filthy build in general for healing a couple friends.

PhoenixGrey

When you have NB’s deleting 30k health with one skill, players have no choice but to build a gazillion crit resist

And then we have p2w sets which do fire and forget unlimited bleed damage which forced players to wear Mara’s balm

Zos themselves created this tank meta

xDeusEJRx

Xarc wrote: »

xDeusEJRx wrote: »

Xarc wrote: »

We also need to know that the game is 9 years old and people now are good at pvp.

When you're watching old videos of pvp gameplay (6-8 years old) you can see ennemies who dont know how to fight.

Today players do a lot of damages, know combos, use stun/dodges/block/bash/cc/debuff and buffs themselves.
We now have a bunch of sets giving a lot of damages/penetration and ways to pass enemy's huge armor .

And the counter part of this is beeing tanky with high HP to expect survive more than 10sec in the rude world of pvp.

A lot of what you said is attributed to procs primarily lol. High hp survival builds are using mara esque proc builds. The damage combos are centered around proc damage, etc etc. Not to mention the knight slayer Empower heavy attack people running around IC. So I would hardly attribute the state of the game to "people know how to fight", as opposed to people knowing how to cheese the game heavily.

There are more proc heavy builds running than not.

Sorry but we can see all what I say in Ravenwatch where there's no proc sets and no cp.

There's also the finisher's problem in PVP :
many finishers are doing 400% damages at 50% HP. SO if you're 40k, 45k, you have a better margin

Again, this is ZOS will.

Most people in pvp aren't no proc players though.
People love procs, these metas every patch is heavily dominated around proc sets. Heavy attack 1 shots because of procs, unkillable high health builds because of Maras balm, DC, plaguebreak I could go on. PVP is HEAVILY reliant on procs.
If Ravenwatch had the same ruleset that battlegrounds did, you would see majority proc builds as opposed to anything "skillful". Ravenwatch players only don't experience this because they have no other set because of the ruleset.

As I said in the last sentence of my last post, more people cheese in this game than do not.

StaticWave

I'm sure plenty of people have said it already.

High damage meta + poor stam/magicka scaling + procs scaling with wd/spell dmg => high HP adaptation. We've seen it throughout different metas such as:

• Malacath meta where 35k+ HP builds with 6-7k WD can still do as much damage as a low HP build
• Triple proc + Malacath with 40k+ HP and high recovery
• Crit damage meta with max crit damage and wd/sd, high recovery, and low max stam/magicka

You pretty much have to build full HP in order to survive one of these metas. Can't really run a normal build without getting one-shotted. What do these metas have in common? High damage lol.

Fix the damage creep, and we'll have the glorious 2018 days where 24k HP is considered high and the average HP is 20k.

Necrotech_Master

Xarc wrote: »

xDeusEJRx wrote: »

Xarc wrote: »

We also need to know that the game is 9 years old and people now are good at pvp.

When you're watching old videos of pvp gameplay (6-8 years old) you can see ennemies who dont know how to fight.

Today players do a lot of damages, know combos, use stun/dodges/block/bash/cc/debuff and buffs themselves.
We now have a bunch of sets giving a lot of damages/penetration and ways to pass enemy's huge armor .

And the counter part of this is beeing tanky with high HP to expect survive more than 10sec in the rude world of pvp.

A lot of what you said is attributed to procs primarily lol. High hp survival builds are using mara esque proc builds. The damage combos are centered around proc damage, etc etc. Not to mention the knight slayer Empower heavy attack people running around IC. So I would hardly attribute the state of the game to "people know how to fight", as opposed to people knowing how to cheese the game heavily.

There are more proc heavy builds running than not.

Sorry but we can see all what I say in Ravenwatch where there's no proc sets and no cp.

There's also the finisher's problem in PVP :
many finishers are doing 400% damages at 50% HP. SO if you're 40k, 45k, you have a better margin

Again, this is ZOS will.

executes dont start at 400% dmg, 50% hp on the target is when they start getting the scaling bonus

technically they never reach 400% because 400% is when the enemy is at 0%

but if the enemy is 25% hp, then your still doing 200% more dmg with the execute which is a lot

Rhaegar75

Cap health and damage mitigation - tanks are fine but a tank meta is way too boring

nublife01

Mayrael wrote: »

This is the result of complex changes that ESO has undergone, as well as the community. Nowadays, most players don't want to die in PvP because we have the mentality of "if I didn't die, I didn't lose" or "if you can't kill me, you're not a better player than me", and if someone loses, it's the fault of the person who defeated them because "they cheated", "used cheese meta", etc. Most players don't want to learn from their failures, but every defeat is a lesson in humility and the best way to be among the best, just ask yourself the right questions.

As for the changes in ESO, Magicka and Stamina have a minimal impact on damage, but through hybridization, we have the ability to divide our skills into two separate pools, which allows for easier resource management. There are also many skills and sets that scale with max HP rather than spell/weapon damage, which allows for the creation of characters with a large HP pool, giving better resistance to ganks and burst damage than high armor values, as even with sets like Balorgh, Titanborn, etc. or skills like Onslaught or Corrosive Armor, we still have a good chance of survival. Additionally, thanks to easier sustain, we can still deal a lot of damage by transferring some stats to spell/weapon damage.

TLDR;
The mentality of players has changed, for most, survival is more important than defeating other players.

Hybridization has made investing in a single resource less important and allows us to achieve the above goal while maintaining some flexibility in dealing damage.

you are 1000% absolutely wrong about this though i understand where you are coming from as i had the same initial conclusion.

the real issue has absolutely nothing to do with hybridization it is rather the absurd amount of stamina and magicka regen passives in the cp tree and the current ridiculous meta pvp sets in the game such as mara's and rallying cry along with resource regen monster sets such as engine guarding and roksa being vastly overtuned. i know this because in no cp i dont have a single issue killing any player even if they wear pariah because those players without those cp passives must rely on heavy attack weaving to regen and any good player can force or bait them to spend heavy resources deny them the ability to heavy attack resource regen. and if you are not heavy attacking you are forced to run a 5 piece resource regen set as there are also no cp passives or overtuned monster set regen procs that can do that for you.

right now literally anyone can run the right resource passives in the cp tree, any class/build maras backbar rallying cry front bar and engine guardian or roksa, and go roll their face on their keyboard and be immortal to everyone and have enough pressure to kill anyone not running the same build that isnt careful. i mean one doesnt have to even run engine guardian or roksa if they dont mind holding down their mouse button every once and a while while they heavy attack. the cp regen passives just give you absurd amounts of ability regen for literally doing nothing.

ive played this game since beta and for the majority of metas i have wittnessed except for one of the proc metas there have always been one or two players around cyro with a completely immortal tank set on that nobody can kill and they do 0 damage. and everyone i mean everyone disliked that players could do this. my question why are there broken cp resource regen passives and sets in the game that make this very annoying aspect of cp pvp the complete do or die meta. it makes 0 sense to me. im happy though that ZOS is nerfing maras but that will not fix the problem. the problem is the god awful amount of resource regen in the current cp tree. the patch before the new cp tree was implemented was by far the most healthy form of pvp i have ever experienced in playing this game. i personally think regardless of the proc sets that cp should be entirely removed from pvp which would also make it much easier to balance pvp and pve separately. no cp actually feels immensely closer to how older/more balanced pvp metas were in the past.

edit: clarity and additonal comments