Guard

OnGodiDoDis

This skill may need a revisit. The reason being is that there is virtually no downside to it. It doesn't cost anything, but it provides a staggering 30% damage reduction to its target. Even if the caster receives 30% of its target's damage, what happens if the target is already tanky?

A proposed solution is to reduce the mitigation to 10% (like everything else) and/or to instate either a ramping stamina cost (since it's mostly used by tanks), or convert it into a cost-per-cast skill. For example: "For x stamina, guard an ally for 3 seconds, transferring 10% of their damage taken to you". Or if it remains a channeled skill: "Channeling costs x stamina per second, increasing by x stamina for every second it's channeled". I think it's about time we got rid of "tower" builds. People spend up to 20 minutes chasing tower builds around keeps, and we can't move on to the next keep until they're all taken care of, which can take a long time. This is a great tank tool. I don't want them to lose it because it makes tanks more relevant in pvp. But it has no detriment to tanks, it doesn't affect them. Transferring 30% damage from a tanky target to a tank is comical. This skill just makes it possible to have tank bombers.

Soarora

Guard is important in PvE too, used on a dps or healer to guard a tank. I think a ramping stamina cost would thus be a bad idea. The downside to guard is it takes up 2 of your ability slots and you have to stay close to your ally. Alternatively, I think mystic guard could be changed to only work against non-player attacks and have stalwart guard as a pvp morph. Then can balance them separately as needed.

OnGodiDoDis

Soarora wrote: »

Guard is important in PvE too, used on a dps or healer to guard a tank. I think a ramping stamina cost would thus be a bad idea. The downside to guard is it takes up 2 of your ability slots and you have to stay close to your ally. Alternatively, I think mystic guard could be changed to only work against non-player attacks and have stalwart guard as a pvp morph. Then can balance them separately as needed.

Of course it's important. It's importsnt just like heals are important. Why do you think nobody uses Mend Wounds from the Psijic Order, even though it's a free and powerful healing skill? Because it prevents users from using other skills (including blocking, dodging) while channeling it. You're free to use all your other skills while channeling Guard, which goes against the game mechanics. Even Mist Form will kick you out of the channel if you cast another skill, dodge, or barswap. Guard is a channel and it needs to be treated as such. That means allowing for interrupts and causing the player to drop the channel if they block, roll, and barswap. This means no more double-slotting Guard. It is not healthy to have such an amount of mitigation 100% of the time, neither in PvP nor PvE. I'm sure the PvE community will work around Guard having a cost. It's a lot harder to manage resources in PvP, but we make it work.

Amerises

OnGodiDoDis wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

Guard is important in PvE too, used on a dps or healer to guard a tank. I think a ramping stamina cost would thus be a bad idea. The downside to guard is it takes up 2 of your ability slots and you have to stay close to your ally. Alternatively, I think mystic guard could be changed to only work against non-player attacks and have stalwart guard as a pvp morph. Then can balance them separately as needed.

Of course it's important. It's importsnt just like heals are important. Why do you think nobody uses Mend Wounds from the Psijic Order, even though it's a free and powerful healing skill? Because it prevents users from using other skills (including blocking, dodging) while channeling it. You're free to use all your other skills while channeling Guard, which goes against the game mechanics. Even Mist Form will kick you out of the channel if you cast another skill, dodge, or barswap. Guard is a channel and it needs to be treated as such. That means allowing for interrupts and causing the player to drop the channel if they block, roll, and barswap. This means no more double-slotting Guard. It is not healthy to have such an amount of mitigation 100% of the time, neither in PvP nor PvE. I'm sure the PvE community will work around Guard having a cost. It's a lot harder to manage resources in PvP, but we make it work.

I can get behind it being treated like a channel. Every other suggestion would make the skill useless in both PvP and PvE; to the degree that it wouldn’t justify use over other skills. It being treated like a channel actually makes it still useful (albeit to a lesser degree) in PvE, while getting rid of the OP’ness in PvP.

Soarora

Dekrypted wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

Guard is important in PvE too, used on a dps or healer to guard a tank. I think a ramping stamina cost would thus be a bad idea. The downside to guard is it takes up 2 of your ability slots and you have to stay close to your ally. Alternatively, I think mystic guard could be changed to only work against non-player attacks and have stalwart guard as a pvp morph. Then can balance them separately as needed.

I don't think, in the past 8+ years of playing I've ever seen a player in pve use guard.

I'm not doubting it's ability to be used there, but I can also slot revealing flare for major protection on my tank to mitigate that pesky boss damage

It’s used in vSS Yoln HM, vSS Nahvi HM, vRG Bahsei HM, and I think vKA HM. First two are healer guard main tank, second one is dps guard off tank, last one is off tank guard main tank, as far as I know. But yeah, it has niche use in the grand scheme of things so I’m not surprised you haven’t heard of it.

NordSwordnBoard

I don't know, outside trolling it kind of broadcasts that a pocket healer isn't enough you need a pocket tank as well. The big red beam kind of says "focus us". Double barring a skill just for someone else's benefit has obvious drawbacks. It can be a kind of funny mini game to play with allies, but not to my taste.

Personally, I'd prefer HoTs that stick to you around LoS and changing floors than make some poor player be my ball & chain. Heals are more reliable and effective than guard. Removing guard from the game will not stop tower farms.

edward_frigidhands

OnGodiDoDis wrote: »

This skill may need a revisit. The reason being is that there is virtually no downside to it. It doesn't cost anything, but it provides a staggering 30% damage reduction to its target. Even if the caster receives 30% of its target's damage, what happens if the target is already tanky?

A proposed solution is to reduce the mitigation to 10% (like everything else) and/or to instate either a ramping stamina cost (since it's mostly used by tanks), or convert it into a cost-per-cast skill. For example: "For x stamina, guard an ally for 3 seconds, transferring 10% of their damage taken to you". Or if it remains a channeled skill: "Channeling costs x stamina per second, increasing by x stamina for every second it's channeled". I think it's about time we got rid of "tower" builds. People spend up to 20 minutes chasing tower builds around keeps, and we can't move on to the next keep until they're all taken care of, which can take a long time. This is a great tank tool. I don't want them to lose it because it makes tanks more relevant in pvp. But it has no detriment to tanks, it doesn't affect them. Transferring 30% damage from a tanky target to a tank is comical. This skill just makes it possible to have tank bombers.

Your suggestions would render the ability completely useless.

It is already very rarely used and completely bypassed in actual group vs group play where a decent delivery of damage is possible.

The only area guard is strong is in very small scale pvp situations around which ESO PvP is not balanced. ESO PvP is balanced around Cyrodiil combat which involves large group vs group play.

And the ability is called Guard, not Indifferent Moral Support. There is a reason it is 30%, its meant to be used by tanks to Guard your target. Your suggestions would hurt the tank role in PvP drastically. You're asking it to function as a block and it's not a block. It's damage redistribution. Block absorbs damage, this does not.

You are seeking balance in small scale pvp situations where its not meant to exist in a large scale MMORPG.

It's called a Massively Multiplayer Online Game, very many people fighting at the same time.

You might need to revisit your perspective on what the game is trying to provide and your expectations of what you want it to be.

EDIT: Your suggestion will not destroy Tower PvP. The only way to tackle Tower PvP is to allow the ability to destroy or shutdown towers once a resource is taken.

OnGodiDoDis

edward_frigidhands wrote: »

OnGodiDoDis wrote: »

This skill may need a revisit. The reason being is that there is virtually no downside to it. It doesn't cost anything, but it provides a staggering 30% damage reduction to its target. Even if the caster receives 30% of its target's damage, what happens if the target is already tanky?

A proposed solution is to reduce the mitigation to 10% (like everything else) and/or to instate either a ramping stamina cost (since it's mostly used by tanks), or convert it into a cost-per-cast skill. For example: "For x stamina, guard an ally for 3 seconds, transferring 10% of their damage taken to you". Or if it remains a channeled skill: "Channeling costs x stamina per second, increasing by x stamina for every second it's channeled". I think it's about time we got rid of "tower" builds. People spend up to 20 minutes chasing tower builds around keeps, and we can't move on to the next keep until they're all taken care of, which can take a long time. This is a great tank tool. I don't want them to lose it because it makes tanks more relevant in pvp. But it has no detriment to tanks, it doesn't affect them. Transferring 30% damage from a tanky target to a tank is comical. This skill just makes it possible to have tank bombers.

Your suggestions would render the ability completely useless.

It is already very rarely used and completely bypassed in actual group vs group play where a decent delivery of damage is possible.

The only area guard is strong is in very small scale pvp situations around which ESO PvP is not balanced. ESO PvP is balanced around Cyrodiil combat which involves large group vs group play.

And the ability is called Guard, not Indifferent Moral Support. There is a reason it is 30%, its meant to be used by tanks to Guard your target. Your suggestions would hurt the tank role in PvP drastically. You're asking it to function as a block and it's not a block. It's damage redistribution. Block absorbs damage, this does not.

You are seeking balance in small scale pvp situations where its not meant to exist in a large scale MMORPG.

It's called a Massively Multiplayer Online Game, very many people fighting at the same time.

You might need to revisit your perspective on what the game is trying to provide and your expectations of what you want it to be.

EDIT: Your suggestion will not destroy Tower PvP. The only way to tackle Tower PvP is to allow the ability to destroy or shutdown towers once a resource is taken.

Quote my words where I said I wanted Guard to function as a block. You may have trouble fidning them because they're not there. Not only are you creating scenarios I never suggested, you're attempting to disuade any changes to Guard by focusing on me, instead of the skill itself. Small-scale is absolutely allowed to exist in a large-scale-dominated environment. Low population times and resource fights are dominated by such small-scale fights. It's those small-scale groups of no more than four people that use this skill to their advantage. As I clearly stated before (it obviously went over your head); transferring 30% damage from a tank to a tank is nonsensical. Where is the down side to the person casting Guard if the damage they get transferred is basically non-existent? Where is the resource cost? Where is the balance? Do not say that double-barring Guard is enough balance. Isn't the reason for the Ironblood nerf because the mitigation was too high while offering no severe penalties to the user?

edward_frigidhands

OnGodiDoDis wrote: »

edward_frigidhands wrote: »

OnGodiDoDis wrote: »

This skill may need a revisit. The reason being is that there is virtually no downside to it. It doesn't cost anything, but it provides a staggering 30% damage reduction to its target. Even if the caster receives 30% of its target's damage, what happens if the target is already tanky?

A proposed solution is to reduce the mitigation to 10% (like everything else) and/or to instate either a ramping stamina cost (since it's mostly used by tanks), or convert it into a cost-per-cast skill. For example: "For x stamina, guard an ally for 3 seconds, transferring 10% of their damage taken to you". Or if it remains a channeled skill: "Channeling costs x stamina per second, increasing by x stamina for every second it's channeled". I think it's about time we got rid of "tower" builds. People spend up to 20 minutes chasing tower builds around keeps, and we can't move on to the next keep until they're all taken care of, which can take a long time. This is a great tank tool. I don't want them to lose it because it makes tanks more relevant in pvp. But it has no detriment to tanks, it doesn't affect them. Transferring 30% damage from a tanky target to a tank is comical. This skill just makes it possible to have tank bombers.

Your suggestions would render the ability completely useless.

It is already very rarely used and completely bypassed in actual group vs group play where a decent delivery of damage is possible.

The only area guard is strong is in very small scale pvp situations around which ESO PvP is not balanced. ESO PvP is balanced around Cyrodiil combat which involves large group vs group play.

And the ability is called Guard, not Indifferent Moral Support. There is a reason it is 30%, its meant to be used by tanks to Guard your target. Your suggestions would hurt the tank role in PvP drastically. You're asking it to function as a block and it's not a block. It's damage redistribution. Block absorbs damage, this does not.

You are seeking balance in small scale pvp situations where its not meant to exist in a large scale MMORPG.

It's called a Massively Multiplayer Online Game, very many people fighting at the same time.

You might need to revisit your perspective on what the game is trying to provide and your expectations of what you want it to be.

EDIT: Your suggestion will not destroy Tower PvP. The only way to tackle Tower PvP is to allow the ability to destroy or shutdown towers once a resource is taken.

Quote my words where I said I wanted Guard to function as a block. You may have trouble fidning them because they're not there. Not only are you creating scenarios I never suggested, you're attempting to disuade any changes to Guard by focusing on me, instead of the skill itself. Small-scale is absolutely allowed to exist in a large-scale-dominated environment. Low population times and resource fights are dominated by such small-scale fights. It's those small-scale groups of no more than four people that use this skill to their advantage. As I clearly stated before (it obviously went over your head); transferring 30% damage from a tank to a tank is nonsensical. Where is the down side to the person casting Guard if the damage they get transferred is basically non-existent? Where is the resource cost? Where is the balance? Do not say that double-barring Guard is enough balance. Isn't the reason for the Ironblood nerf because the mitigation was too high while offering no severe penalties to the user?

You are asking the Guard to be balanced like block is by assigning it a constant cost. It doesn't function like block.

Additionally, there is a cost associated with Guard. The cost is casting the ability for 3402 stamina. All you need to do is swap targets to completely avoid it. It costs you nothing.

Additionally you are able to CC and pull opponents apart using knockbacks and pulls to break it. The ability is called Guard, you are not meant to be able to hammer and parse away at a guarded target with ease.

Lastly, the game's pvp can either be balanced around small scale combat around downtime where it benefits the 1vxers or it can be balanced around regular combat that happens when people play and affects more people.

It's a choice. One will affect the other and you can't have both.

Swapping targets is basic PvP 101.

OnGodiDoDis

edward_frigidhands wrote: »

OnGodiDoDis wrote: »

edward_frigidhands wrote: »

OnGodiDoDis wrote: »

This skill may need a revisit. The reason being is that there is virtually no downside to it. It doesn't cost anything, but it provides a staggering 30% damage reduction to its target. Even if the caster receives 30% of its target's damage, what happens if the target is already tanky?

A proposed solution is to reduce the mitigation to 10% (like everything else) and/or to instate either a ramping stamina cost (since it's mostly used by tanks), or convert it into a cost-per-cast skill. For example: "For x stamina, guard an ally for 3 seconds, transferring 10% of their damage taken to you". Or if it remains a channeled skill: "Channeling costs x stamina per second, increasing by x stamina for every second it's channeled". I think it's about time we got rid of "tower" builds. People spend up to 20 minutes chasing tower builds around keeps, and we can't move on to the next keep until they're all taken care of, which can take a long time. This is a great tank tool. I don't want them to lose it because it makes tanks more relevant in pvp. But it has no detriment to tanks, it doesn't affect them. Transferring 30% damage from a tanky target to a tank is comical. This skill just makes it possible to have tank bombers.

Your suggestions would render the ability completely useless.

It is already very rarely used and completely bypassed in actual group vs group play where a decent delivery of damage is possible.

The only area guard is strong is in very small scale pvp situations around which ESO PvP is not balanced. ESO PvP is balanced around Cyrodiil combat which involves large group vs group play.

And the ability is called Guard, not Indifferent Moral Support. There is a reason it is 30%, its meant to be used by tanks to Guard your target. Your suggestions would hurt the tank role in PvP drastically. You're asking it to function as a block and it's not a block. It's damage redistribution. Block absorbs damage, this does not.

You are seeking balance in small scale pvp situations where its not meant to exist in a large scale MMORPG.

It's called a Massively Multiplayer Online Game, very many people fighting at the same time.

You might need to revisit your perspective on what the game is trying to provide and your expectations of what you want it to be.

EDIT: Your suggestion will not destroy Tower PvP. The only way to tackle Tower PvP is to allow the ability to destroy or shutdown towers once a resource is taken.

Quote my words where I said I wanted Guard to function as a block. You may have trouble fidning them because they're not there. Not only are you creating scenarios I never suggested, you're attempting to disuade any changes to Guard by focusing on me, instead of the skill itself. Small-scale is absolutely allowed to exist in a large-scale-dominated environment. Low population times and resource fights are dominated by such small-scale fights. It's those small-scale groups of no more than four people that use this skill to their advantage. As I clearly stated before (it obviously went over your head); transferring 30% damage from a tank to a tank is nonsensical. Where is the down side to the person casting Guard if the damage they get transferred is basically non-existent? Where is the resource cost? Where is the balance? Do not say that double-barring Guard is enough balance. Isn't the reason for the Ironblood nerf because the mitigation was too high while offering no severe penalties to the user?

You are asking the Guard to be balanced like block is by assigning it a constant cost. It doesn't function like block.

Additionally, there is a cost associated with Guard. The cost is casting the ability for 3402 stamina. All you need to do is swap targets to completely avoid it. It costs you nothing.

Additionally you are able to CC and pull opponents apart using knockbacks and pulls to break it. The ability is called Guard, you are not meant to be able to hammer and parse away at a guarded target with ease.

Lastly, the game's pvp can either be balanced around small scale combat around downtime where it benefits the 1vxers or it can be balanced around regular combat that happens when people play and affects more people.

It's a choice. One will affect the other and you can't have both.

Swapping targets is basic PvP 101.

Yes, Guard is meant to protect the target, but at the expense of the caster. It's basically a human-shield skill. The point is that not enough damage is transferred to the caster because usually both people have high resistances and mitigation. The way to offset the lack of vitality drain on the caster would be to impose a resource penalty, or by adding more counter-play to it. This is not a skill that should have a 100% uptime in any pvp scenario. Also, by "swapping targets", if there are only two people, do you mean I should start attacking the tank? Be realistic. We already established that Guard is mostly used in small groups where the constituents all have high resistances and have multiple people using it.

edward_frigidhands

OnGodiDoDis wrote: »

edward_frigidhands wrote: »

OnGodiDoDis wrote: »

edward_frigidhands wrote: »

OnGodiDoDis wrote: »

This skill may need a revisit. The reason being is that there is virtually no downside to it. It doesn't cost anything, but it provides a staggering 30% damage reduction to its target. Even if the caster receives 30% of its target's damage, what happens if the target is already tanky?

A proposed solution is to reduce the mitigation to 10% (like everything else) and/or to instate either a ramping stamina cost (since it's mostly used by tanks), or convert it into a cost-per-cast skill. For example: "For x stamina, guard an ally for 3 seconds, transferring 10% of their damage taken to you". Or if it remains a channeled skill: "Channeling costs x stamina per second, increasing by x stamina for every second it's channeled". I think it's about time we got rid of "tower" builds. People spend up to 20 minutes chasing tower builds around keeps, and we can't move on to the next keep until they're all taken care of, which can take a long time. This is a great tank tool. I don't want them to lose it because it makes tanks more relevant in pvp. But it has no detriment to tanks, it doesn't affect them. Transferring 30% damage from a tanky target to a tank is comical. This skill just makes it possible to have tank bombers.

Your suggestions would render the ability completely useless.

It is already very rarely used and completely bypassed in actual group vs group play where a decent delivery of damage is possible.

The only area guard is strong is in very small scale pvp situations around which ESO PvP is not balanced. ESO PvP is balanced around Cyrodiil combat which involves large group vs group play.

And the ability is called Guard, not Indifferent Moral Support. There is a reason it is 30%, its meant to be used by tanks to Guard your target. Your suggestions would hurt the tank role in PvP drastically. You're asking it to function as a block and it's not a block. It's damage redistribution. Block absorbs damage, this does not.

You are seeking balance in small scale pvp situations where its not meant to exist in a large scale MMORPG.

It's called a Massively Multiplayer Online Game, very many people fighting at the same time.

You might need to revisit your perspective on what the game is trying to provide and your expectations of what you want it to be.

EDIT: Your suggestion will not destroy Tower PvP. The only way to tackle Tower PvP is to allow the ability to destroy or shutdown towers once a resource is taken.

Quote my words where I said I wanted Guard to function as a block. You may have trouble fidning them because they're not there. Not only are you creating scenarios I never suggested, you're attempting to disuade any changes to Guard by focusing on me, instead of the skill itself. Small-scale is absolutely allowed to exist in a large-scale-dominated environment. Low population times and resource fights are dominated by such small-scale fights. It's those small-scale groups of no more than four people that use this skill to their advantage. As I clearly stated before (it obviously went over your head); transferring 30% damage from a tank to a tank is nonsensical. Where is the down side to the person casting Guard if the damage they get transferred is basically non-existent? Where is the resource cost? Where is the balance? Do not say that double-barring Guard is enough balance. Isn't the reason for the Ironblood nerf because the mitigation was too high while offering no severe penalties to the user?

You are asking the Guard to be balanced like block is by assigning it a constant cost. It doesn't function like block.

Additionally, there is a cost associated with Guard. The cost is casting the ability for 3402 stamina. All you need to do is swap targets to completely avoid it. It costs you nothing.

Additionally you are able to CC and pull opponents apart using knockbacks and pulls to break it. The ability is called Guard, you are not meant to be able to hammer and parse away at a guarded target with ease.

Lastly, the game's pvp can either be balanced around small scale combat around downtime where it benefits the 1vxers or it can be balanced around regular combat that happens when people play and affects more people.

It's a choice. One will affect the other and you can't have both.

Swapping targets is basic PvP 101.

Yes, Guard is meant to protect the target, but at the expense of the caster. It's basically a human-shield skill. The point is that not enough damage is transferred to the caster because usually both people have high resistances and mitigation. The way to offset the lack of vitality drain on the caster would be to impose a resource penalty, or by adding more counter-play to it. This is not a skill that should have a 100% uptime in any pvp scenario. Also, by "swapping targets", if there are only two people, do you mean I should start attacking the tank? Be realistic. We already established that Guard is mostly used in small groups where the constituents all have high resistances and have multiple people using it.

The game is not balanced around 2 people fighting another 2 people.

This is an MMORPG. If you're looking for a game that balances 2v2 then ESO is not it and thankfully never will be.

EDIT: You wouldn't be killing 2 healers healing each other either unless you're in actual group vs group combat.