Ravenwatch PC EU

Tigor

I see people rage quiting because of DC cheating

xMetalheartx

Amazing, EP is overpopulated anyway.

WaywardArgonian

Frustration doesn't justify accusing others of cheating.

Maybe this campaign would be more enjoyable if more players were interested in organizing their groups better instead of ascribing any sort of synchronized action to a cheat or exploit. It really doesn't take much on RW to at least be able to put up a decent fight.

Tigor

WaywardArgonian wrote: »

Frustration doesn't justify accusing others of cheating.

Maybe this campaign would be more enjoyable if more players were interested in organizing their groups better instead of ascribing any sort of synchronized action to a cheat or exploit. It really doesn't take much on RW to at least be able to put up a decent fight.

Says the guy who is not often in Cyrodiil. Unkillable trolls running around in circles or streaking on and off to distract players from the objectives can be certainly frustrating and makes accusing players of cheating even more justified as they only play like that to annoy others. So see the point.

And don't tell me how to organise groups because it is just a matter of playing the game every day of the month with whoever is available by hop on and hop off. So no fixed times, that is for PvE groups. I am taking the lead and just start and tune on the spot. That is how it should be played to win battles.

xMetalheartx

Tigor wrote: »

I am taking the lead and just start and tune on the spot. That is how it should be played to win battles.

But you do not win
We wipe you every time you run into us.

Tigor

xMetalheartx wrote: »

Tigor wrote: »

I am taking the lead and just start and tune on the spot. That is how it should be played to win battles.

But you do not win
We wipe you every time you run into us.

That is what you think. I have my own napkins.

WaywardArgonian

Tigor wrote: »

Says the guy who is not often in Cyrodiil. Unkillable trolls running around in circles or streaking on and off to distract players from the objectives can be certainly frustrating and makes accusing players of cheating even more justified as they only play like that to annoy others. So see the point.

I am in Cyrodiil often, know every guild in Ravenwatch, played in every type of group and have taken time out of my day to share with casual raid leaders how ballgroups push and how to best counter them. It leads to better results than complaining about cheaters. Concluding that everybody who beats you is a cheater is the mentality that leads to stagnation.

I won't deny I am occasionally dismayed by the faction-stacking by organized DC groups, as you can see in my recent posts here, but I would never accuse them of cheating, because they simply aren't.

Also, and I really don't say this to be mean but rather to illustrate a point; I ran with your guild once and did 5x the healing of the other healers. That says there is a lot of power to be added to your group even if you don't want to commit to running premade groups.

Tigor

WaywardArgonian wrote: »

Tigor wrote: »

Says the guy who is not often in Cyrodiil. Unkillable trolls running around in circles or streaking on and off to distract players from the objectives can be certainly frustrating and makes accusing players of cheating even more justified as they only play like that to annoy others. So see the point.

I am in Cyrodiil often, know every guild in Ravenwatch, played in every type of group and have taken time out of my day to share with casual raid leaders how ballgroups push and how to best counter them. It leads to better results than complaining about cheaters. Concluding that everybody who beats you is a cheater is the mentality that leads to stagnation.

I won't deny I am occasionally dismayed by the faction-stacking by organized DC groups, as you can see in my recent posts here, but I would never accuse them of cheating, because they simply aren't.

Also, and I really don't say this to be mean but rather to illustrate a point; I ran with your guild once and did 5x the healing of the other healers. That says there is a lot of power to be added to your group even if you don't want to commit to running premade groups.

Then maybe join our group again we used to have a lot of fun.

Tigor

Old_Lady_Helena wrote: »

Tigor wrote: »

Lets not not try to zerg.

"You can't hide your nature.", am I right?
Nah, I appreciate your efforts to try to get some fights away from the giant EP blob, at least once or twice.
Although I think you already get tired of it lately, at least that's how it seems. I know you probably don't want my advice, but I really want to encourage you to keep trying!

On the other hand, zerging happens, especially while defending homekeeps, when sooner or later the whole population comes to defend or leech the tick.
However, 3 guild groups + randoms steamrolling their way from Bleakers to Rayles, that's quite frustrating to face.

And I know, I know...
Every faction regularly accuses the other factions of zerging and at the same time they swear they don't do it (at least not so much, and not like that. I've seen all factions zerging the map. And (I assume) nobody likes a dead map, except maybe you really really need that campaign win (for what though? Please enlighten me!).

What to do against it though?
Maybe (please don't kill me) the guild groups could time their raids better so that the population are a bit more even, at least during primetime. That would require the wilingness to communicate though.

While there is this maintenance I could make some time free to reply to your post. You are correct in recognizing that our group very often is taking the initiative to start fights. We also ask regularly for help from other Pact groups if we need support in defending to bring the population more in balance. That also means that we have to help out other groups.
We like to attack in the hinterlands only then reinforcements can't arrive before the fight is finished. In those situations we are mostly outnumbered.

Slowly and still working on it, we try to find out the best group organisation. Currently our healing is laying under the magnifying glass as we often don't have a healer in the group. We are aware that for a healer to be of added value we need to play very compactly, but that is something that can only be introduced slowly as we often are breaking up the formation.

cptfrog

Slowly and still working on it, we try to find out the best group organisation. Currently our healing is laying under the magnifying glass as we often don't have a healer in the group. We are aware that for a healer to be of added value we need to play very compactly, but that is something that can only be introduced slowly as we often are breaking up the formation.[/quote]

Isnt this what a typical Ballgroup is?
Playing ''very compacly'' as you describe it and stacking heals.
You stated on the 27th of September that ''No, we will never turn into a ball group! Rather disperse and vanish for new objectives. Like a guerilla and well organised. '', but here we are you talking about starting to behave like the typical ballgroup does.

The fact you call ballgroups exploiters and cheaters just because they play the game as intended is beyond me.
You also call the very top tier players that is on DC cheaters is also beyond me.

You need a reality check how stuff work. Alot of playtime doesnt equal to you being the best cyrodiil player/leader or w/e.

WaywardArgonian

It's funny, early in my pvp 'career' we reached a similar predicament in one of my guilds. We were mostly pretty good solo players but we couldn't put a dent in the better ballgroups. So in researching how to better fight them, we eventually landed on tactics that were often the same as those ballgroups, maybe with a little twist here and there. There's many flavors of ballgroup and smallscale, but in the end you will always end up with something that involves synchronized builds and coordinated ult-dumps.

But regardless of how far you want to take that strategy, a group that is not willing to enforce certain build standards for group play will have a hard cap on its effectiveness. So at one point you will have to pick between adopting some effective group strategies or accepting that you won't be able to beat certain groups with equal numbers. There is no shame in either, but accepting this reality will save a lot of frustration.

Not dismissing the fact that there are cheesy ways to play in a ballgroup but that's rather the fault of the guild(s) in question than a flaw in the principle itself.

Tigor

cptfrog wrote: »

Slowly and still working on it, we try to find out the best group organisation. Currently our healing is laying under the magnifying glass as we often don't have a healer in the group. We are aware that for a healer to be of added value we need to play very compactly, but that is something that can only be introduced slowly as we often are breaking up the formation.

Isnt this what a typical Ballgroup is?
Playing ''very compacly'' as you describe it and stacking heals.
You stated on the 27th of September that ''No, we will never turn into a ball group! Rather disperse and vanish for new objectives. Like a guerilla and well organised. '', but here we are you talking about starting to behave like the typical ballgroup does.

The fact you call ballgroups exploiters and cheaters just because they play the game as intended is beyond me.
You also call the very top tier players that is on DC cheaters is also beyond me.

You need a reality check how stuff work. Alot of playtime doesnt equal to you being the best cyrodiil player/leader or w/e.

I don’t need to do anything. I tell my story and now know that it is read, and will find a way to cross boundaries. This has not much to do with playing as ballgroups and zergs and use of exploids or cheats. It is reflecting that all players should be aware and recognise these topics when they come to this campaign. More I don’t have to say at the moment.

DTStormfox

Not acting as a moderator but maybe it's time to relax in this forum thread a bit. For clarity's sake: this is nothing aimed at a single person or guild representative, this and the following is a statement in general, i.e. nothing personal.

It is not constructive to play the blame game and to search old posts from others to make accusations of hypocrisy. I am not saying that I am not guilty of doing either, I also blamed people and made accusations of hypocrisy, but who isn't guilty of that? (rhetoric question, don't answer).

The common goal is that we all want to have fun in Cyrodiil and a healthy environment for all players. I believe the goal of this forum thread is to share achievements and progress, and have friendly discussions about the status of the Ravenwatch campaign. Let's focus on that. Also, don't forget that players who are considering joining our campaign may read this thread and the direction this thread is going, is not particularly inviting.

SeaGtGruff

Tigor wrote: »

Could someone explain me why we always need 10 players to kill 1 blue? They might have emp buffs, but I believe something stinks here anyway.

I know this post is several months old, but I just wanted to say, if it takes 10 players to kill me (on either of my DC mains), then those 10 players must be pretty bad at PvP, because I stink at PvP and usually die pretty quickly.

But seriously (not that the preceding wasn't said in all seriousness), my experience with AvAvA PvP is that whichever alliance you happen to be playing for determines which alliances are the cheaters, because going by what people post in the forum, ones own alliance is always the one which is downtrodden and being abused by the other two alliances, and those other two alliances are filled with cheaters and hackers. The story never changes, only the colors change depending on which alliance a given poster happens to be playing for. /shrug

WaywardArgonian

So, any serious guilds looking for a healer?

Tigor

SeaGtGruff wrote: »

Tigor wrote: »

Could someone explain me why we always need 10 players to kill 1 blue? They might have emp buffs, but I believe something stinks here anyway.

I know this post is several months old, but I just wanted to say, if it takes 10 players to kill me (on either of my DC mains), then those 10 players must be pretty bad at PvP, because I stink at PvP and usually die pretty quickly.

But seriously (not that the preceding wasn't said in all seriousness), my experience with AvAvA PvP is that whichever alliance you happen to be playing for determines which alliances are the cheaters, because going by what people post in the forum, ones own alliance is always the one which is downtrodden and being abused by the other two alliances, and those other two alliances are filled with cheaters and hackers. The story never changes, only the colors change depending on which alliance a given poster happens to be playing for. /shrug

You are right, this forum should be used to encourage players to come and fight for their alliance. Lately I have been posting about all kinds of cheats. Not everybody does agree on those, but the awareness increased, and the urge to improve builds has been clarified. Pvp here is not only skill but unfortunately also building, as there are so many sets. The combination of tankiness with high damage output and an indefinite resource management is making it all suspicious. DC has many of those players and for that reason I started to mention those. No one ever called me a cheater and that is true as it is pure based on my senses, and the reactions of other Pact players that can see what is going on. The fact that none of the accused ever denies cheating but instead asks me how they are cheating is still triggering my interest.

And now a bit less serious. Currently we would need 5 players to kill one blue aka DC. Improvement happened and will continue. That is it for now.

Parrot1986

Tigor wrote: »

SeaGtGruff wrote: »

Tigor wrote: »

Could someone explain me why we always need 10 players to kill 1 blue? They might have emp buffs, but I believe something stinks here anyway.

I know this post is several months old, but I just wanted to say, if it takes 10 players to kill me (on either of my DC mains), then those 10 players must be pretty bad at PvP, because I stink at PvP and usually die pretty quickly.

But seriously (not that the preceding wasn't said in all seriousness), my experience with AvAvA PvP is that whichever alliance you happen to be playing for determines which alliances are the cheaters, because going by what people post in the forum, ones own alliance is always the one which is downtrodden and being abused by the other two alliances, and those other two alliances are filled with cheaters and hackers. The story never changes, only the colors change depending on which alliance a given poster happens to be playing for. /shrug

You are right, this forum should be used to encourage players to come and fight for their alliance. Lately I have been posting about all kinds of cheats. Not everybody does agree on those, but the awareness increased, and the urge to improve builds has been clarified. Pvp here is not only skill but unfortunately also building, as there are so many sets. The combination of tankiness with high damage output and an indefinite resource management is making it all suspicious. DC has many of those players and for that reason I started to mention those. No one ever called me a cheater and that is true as it is pure based on my senses, and the reactions of other Pact players that can see what is going on. The fact that none of the accused ever denies cheating but instead asks me how they are cheating is still triggering my interest.

And now a bit less serious. Currently we would need 5 players to kill one blue aka DC. Improvement happened and will continue. That is it for now.

I’ve just observed this thread and not really posted as I’m not really a big pvp player although got into a bit more the last few months but wanted to give my 2 cents to this.

As someone in DC who you’ve messaged talking about cheating recently (although I don’t think it was an accusation of me but wasn’t sure) I wouldn’t really entertain trying to prove myself otherwise if “accused” by someone.
That shouldn’t trigger your interest tbh it’s more what can really be said to prove otherwise.

The whole cheating thing is weird to me. I’ve came across plenty players on all alliances who are tough to kill with a couple people and almost impossible for me 1v1. Whilst I’m not terrible at pvp I’m by far the strongest so I get why some people are much better than me and why it takes much more collective effort to kill them. That’s just what you get in a pvp mode. Same with pve where results can vary significantly even with the same set ups.

This will be down to a mix of skill and set ups. As well as some classes being way more suited to taking lots of damage whilst still having a high output but realistically that will be it. I genuinely don’t foresee proper cheating taking place in this of all campaigns.

Ultimately I’m hoping this threads more focussed on campaign activity and progression and encouraging others to join as for me it’s the biggest issue it faces. Having such spikes in EP and DC pops mainly since ADs pop seems much lower causing groups to steamroll the maps until no one’s there to fight for most of the day is horrible for its long term health.

WaywardArgonian

When I or my group gets accused of cheating, I also don't bother denying it. I mean, I know I'm not cheating and there's nothing I can say to the other person to convince them of that, so why bother? Most of such whispers are merely a way for the perpetrator to cope with their defeat. If you thinking I need macros to kill you helps you sleep at night then be my guest.

Tigor

WaywardArgonian wrote: »

When I or my group gets accused of cheating, I also don't bother denying it. I mean, I know I'm not cheating and there's nothing I can say to the other person to convince them of that, so why bother? Most of such whispers are merely a way for the perpetrator to cope with their defeat. If you thinking I need macros to kill you helps you sleep at night then be my guest.

That is why your are a healer. ..Or? Accusing healers of cheating would be difficult I know you are trustworthy and know how to play.

cptfrog

[snip]

So Tigor, when you say people have ''Indefinite resource management is making it all suspicious.'' (your own words), you mean ONLY people who do damage can do that?
Thats exacly mine and some other people in this threads point, [snip]

[edited for baiting]

Tigor

cptfrog wrote: »

[snip]

So Tigor, when you say people have ''Indefinite resource management is making it all suspicious.'' (your own words), you mean ONLY people who do damage can do that?
Thats exacly mine and some other people in this threads point, [snip]

I have not much to say to you as you are just repeating what I already said. If I were ignorant after almost 10 years, you have to come from a very good background to be a better player. [snip]

[edited for flaming & to remove quote]

cptfrog

In my opinion its just unfair calling people cheaters without hard evidence.
If you would record a video and send it here to use as proof i would say nothing, but just calling people cheaters because they dont die is unfair to the people who spent alot of time getting a very good player.

WaywardArgonian

Tigor wrote: »

That is why your are a healer. ..Or? Accusing healers of cheating would be difficult I know you are trustworthy and know how to play.

I main a healer since about a year, but I played DD before that and still do on occasions. It is true I get fewer whispers as a healer, but groups I play with are still regularly accused of 'cheating' when I am sure that none of us are doing anything wrong.

Zabagad

cptfrog wrote: »

In my opinion its just unfair calling people cheaters without hard evidence.
If you would record a video and send it here to use as proof i would say nothing, but just calling people cheaters because they dont die is unfair to the people who spent alot of time getting a very good player.

Just look at Tigors definition of cheating in post #111 and you know all about his view.

In my opinion 99% of all the cheating shouts are just this:

WaywardArgonian wrote: »

are merely a way for the perpetrator to cope with their defeat.

cptfrog

Zabagad wrote: »

cptfrog wrote: »

In my opinion its just unfair calling people cheaters without hard evidence.
If you would record a video and send it here to use as proof i would say nothing, but just calling people cheaters because they dont die is unfair to the people who spent alot of time getting a very good player.

Just look at Tigors definition of cheating in post #111 and you know all about his view.


Ah, i think i missed reading that post or might've forgetten about it.
But yeah after reading that i will say no more. Quite funny examples.

Tigor

Zabagad wrote: »

cptfrog wrote: »

In my opinion its just unfair calling people cheaters without hard evidence.
If you would record a video and send it here to use as proof i would say nothing, but just calling people cheaters because they dont die is unfair to the people who spent alot of time getting a very good player.

Just look at Tigors definition of cheating in post #111 and you know all about his view.

In my opinion 99% of all the cheating shouts are just this:

WaywardArgonian wrote: »

are merely a way for the perpetrator to cope with their defeat.

Not true.

DTStormfox

I have a recording of a player literally flying through the air from the outer wall, into the inner to the Apse flag. And I have video evidence of some players casting >1 ability in 1 second (the server allows for only 1 ability cast per second). These players have been reported and I have not seen them ever since. So, cheating is definitely happening, regardless of the alliance. We cannot be ignorant of that fact.

I understand it seems suspicious that some players can sustain casting abilities, whilst blocking >5 enemy players, dodging, sprinting, and breaking free from hard cc. And at the same time, return massive damage and still heal themselves like crazy.
The problem is, that, if people are cheating like this, this cannot be proven with video evidence because one cannot record somebody else's resource management.

The point is, however, that discussing whether people are cheating or not on the Forums seems rather redundant to me. What is the point really? What are we going to achieve with it?

cptfrog

Yeah ofc that cheating and exploiting is a thing, i've seen people exploiting bugs in the past (ressing themself after death) but those people got banned like you also said DTStormfox.
My issue is saying a whole alliance is cheating just because they are doing better is the part which annoys me.

''The problem is, that, if people are cheating like this, this cannot be proven with video evidence because one cannot record somebody else's resource management.''
You can still record and send to ZOS, but i've never heard someone using a cheat that gives them infinite resources but maybe it is a thing, i have no idea. Its more common people use exploits that make them move in not natural ways or casting more stuff then normally is possible and his is easy to spot from outside perspective.

I'm just trying to make Tigor understand that he cant just say x alliance is cheating just because they are doing good.
The fact is often that especially on NOCP where people can swap alliances all the time that the good smallscale/solo players always change to the alliance who gets them the best fights / enemies to fight and this seems to be currently DC. (i dont play NoCp atm tho so cant say that for sure)

cptfrog

I can just say as a example, we have some people on CP campaign atm which is exploiting the warden gate which pulls you to them.
The exploit is used so they pull people outside of keeps through walls and stuff (imagine the outer gets closed and they pull you outside of a wall/door and now u cant get in anymore), which is a huge pain but i'm just atm trying to gather 'evidence' in form of videos so i can actually report them but i'm not complaining about it in a forum post.

Zabagad

DTStormfox wrote: »

I have a recording of a player literally flying through the air from the outer wall, into the inner to the Apse flag. And I have video evidence of some players casting >1 ability in 1 second (the server allows for only 1 ability cast per second). These players have been reported and I have not seen them ever since. So, cheating is definitely happening, regardless of the alliance. We cannot be ignorant of that fact.

I understand it seems suspicious that some players can sustain casting abilities, whilst blocking >5 enemy players, dodging, sprinting, and breaking free from hard cc. And at the same time, return massive damage and still heal themselves like crazy.
The problem is, that, if people are cheating like this, this cannot be proven with video evidence because one cannot record somebody else's resource management.

The point is, however, that discussing whether people are cheating or not on the Forums seems rather redundant to me. What is the point really? What are we going to achieve with it?

I agree on almost everything you said.
Only question would be - how long ago did you see the flying?

So - sure cheating exists - but compare that to the amounts of cheater calls you get
I'm not even a good player and got many cheater whispers. (incl. Tigor - thats why I know his name )
And being accused to do some kind of resources cheat after just a normal 50s 1vs1 (in the CP campaign!) is just a coping strategy and nothing else. (which happend to me lately)

cptfrog wrote: »

I'm just trying to make Tigor understand that he cant just say x alliance is cheating just because they are doing good.

I'm not his advocate at all but I'm sure he is pointing to single players - but DC has many of them.
I - from my yellow standpoint - know from 3-4 really good red players (which I try to ignore because I could never win anyway) but on the same level are maybe 15 DC players.
So the blue solo/small player are really really good in this campaign.
And as I don't know how many are on AD side (maybe like red?) it looks for him like for me.
DC > EP (DC > AD) in terms of strong solo players.
So DC is the number one sus alliance for him

I accept that they are very good players and I have no proof at all to say otherwise. (but as DTStormfox said - it is for sure possible) But without proof I'm quiet.
Tigor is not quiet - but I know how fast he is calling someone a cheater and since he wrote his definition in #111....