Do Sorcerers Complain too much?

Sergykid

- every class can mitigate damage, sorcs do it with shields and conditioned healing like having a pet or casting deal. U can't expect it to heal like a templar because also the templar doesn't have mobility like a sorc.
- streak is not comparable to new mist, problem is not distance cuz that can be covered with gap closer or sprint or range, problem is unavoidable stun that makes the sorc out of range while u breakfree.

class is fine and just got better, if u wanna play like a templar with stand ground and heal then go play templar !(?)?(!)

ketsparrowhawk

StaticWave wrote: »

ketsparrowhawk wrote: »

Not a sorc main but I play one a fair amount and shred every time so I am not convinced they're in any kind of bad shape. Sorcs are unmatched regarding long-range offense + mobility and that should come with some weaknesses. To me it makes sense that healing/tankiness is their weakness.

They aren't. They've never been at the bottom of the tier list. They were definitely shadowed by OP classes like pre-nerfed templar and current DK, but they could hold their own against most builds and classes. If I were to rank them, I'd put them in the B+/A tier.

What baffles me is how most sorc mains refuse to accept that their class would be OP if ZOS decided to buff it using their suggestions. Sorc's playstyle hasn't changed over 5 years, yet it could still keep up with most classes. Any drastic buffs would push the class over the top like NB. NB's never been bad either, but these recent unnecessary buffs turned it into one of the strongest/borderline overperforming classes.

Threads like these really highlight the impossible task the devs have of balancing this game and making players happy.

It's already difficult for me to not log in with my sorc every time because it's 100% easy mode. If some of these suggestions were to be implemented you better believe it's the only character I'd ever play.

Turtle_Bot

Sergykid wrote: »

- every class can mitigate damage, sorcs do it with shields and conditioned healing like having a pet or casting deal. U can't expect it to heal like a templar because also the templar doesn't have mobility like a sorc.
- streak is not comparable to new mist, problem is not distance cuz that can be covered with gap closer or sprint or range, problem is unavoidable stun that makes the sorc out of range while u breakfree.

class is fine and just got better, if u wanna play like a templar with stand ground and heal then go play templar !(?)?(!)

- Every class gets to mitigate damage for free via free buffs/debuffs attached to their other abilities/passives, sorc has to specifically find room to slot and waste valuable GCD's to cast abilities whose only purpose is to mitigate damage and don't do anything else on a bar that has no room for better skills let alone such outdated skills, that have a set capped value of damage that they can mitigate instead of scaling that mitigation with the damage taken, that costs more per cast than any other mitigation ability in the game.

If shields are so strong as you keep crying about, then by that logic vigor should have a 4.3k stamina cost instead of its current 2.9k, it should also have a cap on its potential total heal to 60% of your max health (and all other HoTs should have this cap and cost increase too while we're at it since they all do what shields do and that is mitigate damage by passively adding health).
- It has a base heal over time that does what a shield does (mitigate incoming damage passively) that is higher than shields base value and it is uncapped unlike shields
- It also scales off of raw damage instead of the weaker max stats meaning it can easily get it to well over 20k (and I have seen plenty at 30k+ total heal also saw 1 that nearly reached 40k total heal back during full power oakensoul meta) while you build for damage giving you no trade-off for running it.
- It also provides minor resolve and lasts a similar duration to the stronger shield morph, hardened ward.
- It also allows you to block while under its effect and grants that block mitigation bonus while the heal is ticking, something that shields don't get while they're active (block mitigation bonus).

- streak is an offensive ability that is being forced into being used defensively because the class has no other options currently. A better comparison to the new mist form is ball of lightning, which is strictly much worse than the new mist form. As for streak having an unavoidable stun, why not take the same excuse you give for NB being fine with having one of the strongest burst heals as well as strong HoTs on top of their invisibility and shade, that being detect pots exist, well news flash, immobility potions also exist and completely nullify the stun from streak as does the heavy armor active skill unstoppable and its morphs, unstoppable can also double as your armor buff and one which also gives you much cheaper break free per heavy armor piece worn. There's also the slippery CP in the red tree that automatically breaks you free from any stun/knockback and will allow you to immediately chase down that sorc as if they never stunned you while trying to run away.

It's super easy to tell when streak is coming to time the pot or skill with too. Hear/see curse being cast on you and wait 2-2.5 seconds then cast/use immovability tool of choice and dodge roll and watch as the entire sorc combo gets dodged and streak does nothing to stop that dodge roll, or when chasing a sorc down, do what you're supposed to do when going for the kill on any class anyway, pop that immo pot and sprint/gap close on top of them, then CC the sorc and watch the sorc completely melt since they couldn't get that distance to safely use their heals.

There's plenty of counters to streak, many of which are in a very good spot right now and some of which should be ran anyway if you're going to do any pvp that's more than just sitting behind a zerg and letting them do the work before you steal the kill with beam/wrath/siege.

Another tip to counter a streaking sorc, combine zoals monster set with slippery CP for an instant break free and immediate fear that also gives you bonus damage to kill the feared sorc even quicker.

The class is most definitely not fine and thanks to sorc haters such as yourself this "buff" they gave sorc will get immediately nerfed again next patch without any proper fixes to the class and we will be right back to square 1 again.

It is no longer 2018 summerset, NB is one of the top PvP classes and sorc is not in a good spot.

Katlefiya

Sergykid wrote: »

- every class can mitigate damage, sorcs do it with shields and conditioned healing like having a pet or casting deal. U can't expect it to heal like a templar because also the templar doesn't have mobility like a sorc.
- streak is not comparable to new mist, problem is not distance cuz that can be covered with gap closer or sprint or range, problem is unavoidable stun that makes the sorc out of range while u breakfree.

In today's ESO. sorc's way of mitigating damage is inferior to that of all other classes, while our mobility advantage is miniscule. We might still be somewhat better at running away from a fight - which might upset people - but streak range is only 15m while templar's charge is 22m. If the first streak did stun you, than it was pointed in your direction, meaning the sorc will be even closer to you than 15m.

Katlefiya

ketsparrowhawk wrote: »

It's already difficult for me to not log in with my sorc every time because it's 100% easy mode. If some of these suggestions were to be implemented you better believe it's the only character I'd ever play.

Oh, I will not deny that sorc is easy to play on an entry or even medium skill level - you know, the level where opponents are not very good at the game, either.

ketsparrowhawk

Katlefiya wrote: »

ketsparrowhawk wrote: »

It's already difficult for me to not log in with my sorc every time because it's 100% easy mode. If some of these suggestions were to be implemented you better believe it's the only character I'd ever play.

Oh, I will not deny that sorc is easy to play on an entry or even medium skill level - you know, the level where opponents are not very good at the game, either.

Anyone who plays BG's with any regularity on PC/NA knows that's not what I'm talking about.

ketsparrowhawk

It's a philosophical disagreement. Sorcs have defensive weakness. Yes. 1v1 against an equally skilled DK, the Sorc loses every time. That's how it should be, imo. If we want Sorcs to go toe-to-toe with DK's then we also need to take away some of their mobility. We need to reduce their effectiveness at long range. They can't have it all (as they once did).

edit: Current Nightblades are a perfect example. NB's of the past had big damage and extremely low survivability outside of escaping. That isn't the case anymore at all. NB's have very good survivability these days with a very well-rounded defensive kit. Imo that SHOULD NOT be the case for a class that can turn invisible and delete someone from existence in 1 GCD.

Turtle_Bot

ketsparrowhawk wrote: »

edit: Current Nightblades are a perfect example. NB's of the past had big damage and extremely low survivability outside of escaping. That isn't the case anymore at all. NB's have very good survivability these days with a very well-rounded defensive kit. Imo that SHOULD NOT be the case for a class that can turn invisible and delete someone from existence in 1 GCD.

There-in lies the issue though, Zos seems determined to keep NB as this tanky brawler that has the same defensive capabilities as the traditional tank classes while also improving their already high mobility, allowing them to keep their superior engage/disengage capabilities as well as allowing them to continue to delete players within 1 GCD with practically no counter play.
NB has been like this for 2 patches now and it's looking very likely that it will continue for another 2 (or more) patches with zero changes this patch (so far) and the only major nerf to the class since these buffs were introduced was to dark cloak, a HoT that was so strong that it made going invisible completely obsolete for anyone not playing a pure glass cannon gank build.

Think about that for a second, a HoT that was so strong that it made one of the most broken/overpowered mechanics in all of PvP into a niche option almost not worth running and NBs have the nerve to still be complaining about streak when they had that level of power in their kit.

They're also currently buffing DK up to match/beat that power level as well (unless there's some serious nerfs coming in week 3). So it seems like the current state of NB/DK is going to be the new norm for the power level of the different classes and the rest of us apparently just have to sit and wait for our turn (who knows how many months/years in the future that will be, if ever) instead of bringing everyone up together.

BTW, I agree with you that it should not be the case, but it's zos that are apparently so determined to make it the case for NB and DK and to a lesser extent wardens while not allowing it to be the case for the other 3 classes.

gariondavey

AdamLAD wrote: »

I'm sorry, sorcerer is like C+. All the YouTube content creators agree it's in the bin. Me also a content creator know its in the bin. Every fight I have the enemy sorcerer just flat out paper and dies immediately if they do not run away. This can be said for no other class at all. All I ever see is 35k HP Wardens, temps, Dks, necros and will capped out resistance and 6k weapon damage. With nightblades that are also immortal due to cloak. Sorcerer does not have such luxury of having anything remotely close thus why its in the bin and dies immediately if they do not run. We cannot even BLOCK. Do u PHYSICALLY understand how strong blocking is. Like I've stated in other posts, sorcerers defensive capabilities and sustain is the main issue. We can't keep wards up long enough to line up our timed burst combination which no other class needs to do. Wards cost A RIDICULOUS AMOUNT. Highest defensive abilities in the game, they are paper and make block mitigation go to 0, they are capped. Utterly pathetic. Our damage abilities are not the primary issue. Yes execute could do with a buff and frags higher proc chance and a stun but that's IT at maximum for our offence. I'd much rather them buff all Wards and lower the cost by a LARGE amount 30% at minimum. That's ALL WARDS by the way. It's the only reason sorcerer is in the bin. I'm telling you now it will be fine if you do what I'm asking and it will simply not break the class.

Doesn't really matter what youtube content creators say. What matters more are what the top pvpers say. There is not a ton of coinciding between those 2 groups.
I know static wave and metallic monk, and their opinions on the matter mean more due to their levels of understanding of the game and mechanical skill. Unless a youtube content creator has similar understanding and mechanical skill, their tier list isn't accurate.

AdamLAD

gariondavey wrote: »

AdamLAD wrote: »

I'm sorry, sorcerer is like C+. All the YouTube content creators agree it's in the bin. Me also a content creator know its in the bin. Every fight I have the enemy sorcerer just flat out paper and dies immediately if they do not run away. This can be said for no other class at all. All I ever see is 35k HP Wardens, temps, Dks, necros and will capped out resistance and 6k weapon damage. With nightblades that are also immortal due to cloak. Sorcerer does not have such luxury of having anything remotely close thus why its in the bin and dies immediately if they do not run. We cannot even BLOCK. Do u PHYSICALLY understand how strong blocking is. Like I've stated in other posts, sorcerers defensive capabilities and sustain is the main issue. We can't keep wards up long enough to line up our timed burst combination which no other class needs to do. Wards cost A RIDICULOUS AMOUNT. Highest defensive abilities in the game, they are paper and make block mitigation go to 0, they are capped. Utterly pathetic. Our damage abilities are not the primary issue. Yes execute could do with a buff and frags higher proc chance and a stun but that's IT at maximum for our offence. I'd much rather them buff all Wards and lower the cost by a LARGE amount 30% at minimum. That's ALL WARDS by the way. It's the only reason sorcerer is in the bin. I'm telling you now it will be fine if you do what I'm asking and it will simply not break the class.

Doesn't really matter what youtube content creators say. What matters more are what the top pvpers say. There is not a ton of coinciding between those 2 groups.
I know static wave and metallic monk, and their opinions on the matter mean more due to their levels of understanding of the game and mechanical skill. Unless a youtube content creator has similar understanding and mechanical skill, their tier list isn't accurate.

It's a shame you don't know who I am.

ForumBully

gariondavey wrote: »

AdamLAD wrote: »

I'm sorry, sorcerer is like C+. All the YouTube content creators agree it's in the bin. Me also a content creator know its in the bin. Every fight I have the enemy sorcerer just flat out paper and dies immediately if they do not run away. This can be said for no other class at all. All I ever see is 35k HP Wardens, temps, Dks, necros and will capped out resistance and 6k weapon damage. With nightblades that are also immortal due to cloak. Sorcerer does not have such luxury of having anything remotely close thus why its in the bin and dies immediately if they do not run. We cannot even BLOCK. Do u PHYSICALLY understand how strong blocking is. Like I've stated in other posts, sorcerers defensive capabilities and sustain is the main issue. We can't keep wards up long enough to line up our timed burst combination which no other class needs to do. Wards cost A RIDICULOUS AMOUNT. Highest defensive abilities in the game, they are paper and make block mitigation go to 0, they are capped. Utterly pathetic. Our damage abilities are not the primary issue. Yes execute could do with a buff and frags higher proc chance and a stun but that's IT at maximum for our offence. I'd much rather them buff all Wards and lower the cost by a LARGE amount 30% at minimum. That's ALL WARDS by the way. It's the only reason sorcerer is in the bin. I'm telling you now it will be fine if you do what I'm asking and it will simply not break the class.

Doesn't really matter what youtube content creators say. What matters more are what the top pvpers say. There is not a ton of coinciding between those 2 groups.
I know static wave and metallic monk, and their opinions on the matter mean more due to their levels of understanding of the game and mechanical skill. Unless a youtube content creator has similar understanding and mechanical skill, their tier list isn't accurate.

Sounds like you're saying only the opinion of those you know matters.

ketsparrowhawk

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

ketsparrowhawk wrote: »

edit: Current Nightblades are a perfect example. NB's of the past had big damage and extremely low survivability outside of escaping. That isn't the case anymore at all. NB's have very good survivability these days with a very well-rounded defensive kit. Imo that SHOULD NOT be the case for a class that can turn invisible and delete someone from existence in 1 GCD.

There-in lies the issue though, Zos seems determined to keep NB as this tanky brawler that has the same defensive capabilities as the traditional tank classes while also improving their already high mobility, allowing them to keep their superior engage/disengage capabilities as well as allowing them to continue to delete players within 1 GCD with practically no counter play.
NB has been like this for 2 patches now and it's looking very likely that it will continue for another 2 (or more) patches with zero changes this patch (so far) and the only major nerf to the class since these buffs were introduced was to dark cloak, a HoT that was so strong that it made going invisible completely obsolete for anyone not playing a pure glass cannon gank build.

Think about that for a second, a HoT that was so strong that it made one of the most broken/overpowered mechanics in all of PvP into a niche option almost not worth running and NBs have the nerve to still be complaining about streak when they had that level of power in their kit.

They're also currently buffing DK up to match/beat that power level as well (unless there's some serious nerfs coming in week 3). So it seems like the current state of NB/DK is going to be the new norm for the power level of the different classes and the rest of us apparently just have to sit and wait for our turn (who knows how many months/years in the future that will be, if ever) instead of bringing everyone up together.

BTW, I agree with you that it should not be the case, but it's zos that are apparently so determined to make it the case for NB and DK and to a lesser extent wardens while not allowing it to be the case for the other 3 classes.

Yeah the NB situation is a little ridiculous.

But even so, there is some nuance to consider. NB's have that insta-delete combo sure.. but it's also very difficult to land, especially against experienced players. And if you whiff, you don't really have the ability to keep up consistent pressure. You basically have to retreat, build your merciless stacks / ult back, then try again. Ofc your opponent is fully recovered from the first attempt by then. Whereas with a Sorc I can keep up the pressure. If they don't die from the first curse/fury/crushing/frags, I just keep tossing curse/fury/crushing/frags until they do die. And if that doesn't do it then I kick on Overload and 99% of the time that does it.

My point is.. even though my NB has superior defenses and theoretically more damage, I still get better K/D ratio's with my Sorc.

ketsparrowhawk

ForumBully wrote: »

gariondavey wrote: »

AdamLAD wrote: »

I'm sorry, sorcerer is like C+. All the YouTube content creators agree it's in the bin. Me also a content creator know its in the bin. Every fight I have the enemy sorcerer just flat out paper and dies immediately if they do not run away. This can be said for no other class at all. All I ever see is 35k HP Wardens, temps, Dks, necros and will capped out resistance and 6k weapon damage. With nightblades that are also immortal due to cloak. Sorcerer does not have such luxury of having anything remotely close thus why its in the bin and dies immediately if they do not run. We cannot even BLOCK. Do u PHYSICALLY understand how strong blocking is. Like I've stated in other posts, sorcerers defensive capabilities and sustain is the main issue. We can't keep wards up long enough to line up our timed burst combination which no other class needs to do. Wards cost A RIDICULOUS AMOUNT. Highest defensive abilities in the game, they are paper and make block mitigation go to 0, they are capped. Utterly pathetic. Our damage abilities are not the primary issue. Yes execute could do with a buff and frags higher proc chance and a stun but that's IT at maximum for our offence. I'd much rather them buff all Wards and lower the cost by a LARGE amount 30% at minimum. That's ALL WARDS by the way. It's the only reason sorcerer is in the bin. I'm telling you now it will be fine if you do what I'm asking and it will simply not break the class.

Doesn't really matter what youtube content creators say. What matters more are what the top pvpers say. There is not a ton of coinciding between those 2 groups.
I know static wave and metallic monk, and their opinions on the matter mean more due to their levels of understanding of the game and mechanical skill. Unless a youtube content creator has similar understanding and mechanical skill, their tier list isn't accurate.

Sounds like you're saying only the opinion of those you know matters.

Sounds to me like he just doesn't put a ton of value on "content creator".

And when the players you know are some of the best in the game, then yeah you're gonna put more value in their opinion than a random "content creator" picking on noobs in a YT video.

ForumBully

ketsparrowhawk wrote: »

ForumBully wrote: »

gariondavey wrote: »

AdamLAD wrote: »

I'm sorry, sorcerer is like C+. All the YouTube content creators agree it's in the bin. Me also a content creator know its in the bin. Every fight I have the enemy sorcerer just flat out paper and dies immediately if they do not run away. This can be said for no other class at all. All I ever see is 35k HP Wardens, temps, Dks, necros and will capped out resistance and 6k weapon damage. With nightblades that are also immortal due to cloak. Sorcerer does not have such luxury of having anything remotely close thus why its in the bin and dies immediately if they do not run. We cannot even BLOCK. Do u PHYSICALLY understand how strong blocking is. Like I've stated in other posts, sorcerers defensive capabilities and sustain is the main issue. We can't keep wards up long enough to line up our timed burst combination which no other class needs to do. Wards cost A RIDICULOUS AMOUNT. Highest defensive abilities in the game, they are paper and make block mitigation go to 0, they are capped. Utterly pathetic. Our damage abilities are not the primary issue. Yes execute could do with a buff and frags higher proc chance and a stun but that's IT at maximum for our offence. I'd much rather them buff all Wards and lower the cost by a LARGE amount 30% at minimum. That's ALL WARDS by the way. It's the only reason sorcerer is in the bin. I'm telling you now it will be fine if you do what I'm asking and it will simply not break the class.

Doesn't really matter what youtube content creators say. What matters more are what the top pvpers say. There is not a ton of coinciding between those 2 groups.
I know static wave and metallic monk, and their opinions on the matter mean more due to their levels of understanding of the game and mechanical skill. Unless a youtube content creator has similar understanding and mechanical skill, their tier list isn't accurate.

Sounds like you're saying only the opinion of those you know matters.

Sounds to me like he just doesn't put a ton of value on "content creator".

And when the players you know are some of the best in the game, then yeah you're gonna put more value in their opinion than a random "content creator" picking on noobs in a YT video.

So you know the "best in the game" but others just know people who pick on noobs...seems like there might be some bias.
Maybe we should pay more attention to those who can explain why the class is in the state it's in clearly, and have an understanding of how it got there regardless of whether they stream or not.
A lot of people have made some strong cases for change, and maybe some go to far and some don't go far enough.

ForumBully

I don't really wanna go down the derailing rabbit hole of who's worth listening to.

ketsparrowhawk

ForumBully wrote: »

ketsparrowhawk wrote: »

ForumBully wrote: »

gariondavey wrote: »

AdamLAD wrote: »

I'm sorry, sorcerer is like C+. All the YouTube content creators agree it's in the bin. Me also a content creator know its in the bin. Every fight I have the enemy sorcerer just flat out paper and dies immediately if they do not run away. This can be said for no other class at all. All I ever see is 35k HP Wardens, temps, Dks, necros and will capped out resistance and 6k weapon damage. With nightblades that are also immortal due to cloak. Sorcerer does not have such luxury of having anything remotely close thus why its in the bin and dies immediately if they do not run. We cannot even BLOCK. Do u PHYSICALLY understand how strong blocking is. Like I've stated in other posts, sorcerers defensive capabilities and sustain is the main issue. We can't keep wards up long enough to line up our timed burst combination which no other class needs to do. Wards cost A RIDICULOUS AMOUNT. Highest defensive abilities in the game, they are paper and make block mitigation go to 0, they are capped. Utterly pathetic. Our damage abilities are not the primary issue. Yes execute could do with a buff and frags higher proc chance and a stun but that's IT at maximum for our offence. I'd much rather them buff all Wards and lower the cost by a LARGE amount 30% at minimum. That's ALL WARDS by the way. It's the only reason sorcerer is in the bin. I'm telling you now it will be fine if you do what I'm asking and it will simply not break the class.

Doesn't really matter what youtube content creators say. What matters more are what the top pvpers say. There is not a ton of coinciding between those 2 groups.
I know static wave and metallic monk, and their opinions on the matter mean more due to their levels of understanding of the game and mechanical skill. Unless a youtube content creator has similar understanding and mechanical skill, their tier list isn't accurate.

Sounds like you're saying only the opinion of those you know matters.

Sounds to me like he just doesn't put a ton of value on "content creator".

And when the players you know are some of the best in the game, then yeah you're gonna put more value in their opinion than a random "content creator" picking on noobs in a YT video.

So you know the "best in the game" but others just know people who pick on noobs...seems like there might be some bias.
Maybe we should pay more attention to those who can explain why the class is in the state it's in clearly, and have an understanding of how it got there regardless of whether they stream or not.
A lot of people have made some strong cases for change, and maybe some go to far and some don't go far enough.

Yeah pretty much. All the people I know play BG's where there is a MMR system that forces you to go up against more-or-less equally skilled players. So if someone performs well you know they had to work for it.

1vX is not impressive. If even one half-decent enemy player is present 1vX is not possible. If I visit a YT channel and only see a bunch of Cyro "outnumbered" videos I'm just not interested in that person's perspective. But hey that's me.

Turtle_Bot

ketsparrowhawk wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

ketsparrowhawk wrote: »

edit: Current Nightblades are a perfect example. NB's of the past had big damage and extremely low survivability outside of escaping. That isn't the case anymore at all. NB's have very good survivability these days with a very well-rounded defensive kit. Imo that SHOULD NOT be the case for a class that can turn invisible and delete someone from existence in 1 GCD.

There-in lies the issue though, Zos seems determined to keep NB as this tanky brawler that has the same defensive capabilities as the traditional tank classes while also improving their already high mobility, allowing them to keep their superior engage/disengage capabilities as well as allowing them to continue to delete players within 1 GCD with practically no counter play.
NB has been like this for 2 patches now and it's looking very likely that it will continue for another 2 (or more) patches with zero changes this patch (so far) and the only major nerf to the class since these buffs were introduced was to dark cloak, a HoT that was so strong that it made going invisible completely obsolete for anyone not playing a pure glass cannon gank build.

Think about that for a second, a HoT that was so strong that it made one of the most broken/overpowered mechanics in all of PvP into a niche option almost not worth running and NBs have the nerve to still be complaining about streak when they had that level of power in their kit.

They're also currently buffing DK up to match/beat that power level as well (unless there's some serious nerfs coming in week 3). So it seems like the current state of NB/DK is going to be the new norm for the power level of the different classes and the rest of us apparently just have to sit and wait for our turn (who knows how many months/years in the future that will be, if ever) instead of bringing everyone up together.

BTW, I agree with you that it should not be the case, but it's zos that are apparently so determined to make it the case for NB and DK and to a lesser extent wardens while not allowing it to be the case for the other 3 classes.

Yeah the NB situation is a little ridiculous.

But even so, there is some nuance to consider. NB's have that insta-delete combo sure.. but it's also very difficult to land, especially against experienced players. And if you whiff, you don't really have the ability to keep up consistent pressure. You basically have to retreat, build your merciless stacks / ult back, then try again. Ofc your opponent is fully recovered from the first attempt by then. Whereas with a Sorc I can keep up the pressure. If they don't die from the first curse/fury/crushing/frags, I just keep tossing curse/fury/crushing/frags until they do die. And if that doesn't do it then I kick on Overload and 99% of the time that does it.

My point is.. even though my NB has superior defenses and theoretically more damage, I still get better K/D ratio's with my Sorc.

I've found it easier on my NB. Sure the insta-delete combo isn't the most reliable to land, but neither is the sorcs entire combo against anyone who's competent which also takes double the GCDs to use.
I also don't focus entirely on spec bow for my damage on NB either, so I'm definitely not lacking in pressure. I think this is the trap most players fall into with NB, they over rely on spec bow (and invis) so when it doesn't work they think its weak, when that is so far from reality.

AdamLAD

Doesn't take a top-tier player to know the class is in a bad state. I've had plenty of players who are simply not good at PvP say that they can immediately feel the power difference between sorcerer and other classes. Some mains refuse to play it. It's that bad. It's a general concensus from top to bottom that sorcerer is in a rut and needs pulling out of it. The reason I said content creator is because it's still an extra opinion to support the reasonings as to why sorc is bad, not because of their skill. It's because its an extra person agreeing. Whilst yes you could say a better players opinion would holds more weight, the fact people across the board is saying its bad speaks volumes as there's normally a huge divide in opinion when it comes to balance, from the perspective of a good player vs bad player.

Jsmalls

ketsparrowhawk wrote: »

ForumBully wrote: »

ketsparrowhawk wrote: »

ForumBully wrote: »

gariondavey wrote: »

AdamLAD wrote: »

I'm sorry, sorcerer is like C+. All the YouTube content creators agree it's in the bin. Me also a content creator know its in the bin. Every fight I have the enemy sorcerer just flat out paper and dies immediately if they do not run away. This can be said for no other class at all. All I ever see is 35k HP Wardens, temps, Dks, necros and will capped out resistance and 6k weapon damage. With nightblades that are also immortal due to cloak. Sorcerer does not have such luxury of having anything remotely close thus why its in the bin and dies immediately if they do not run. We cannot even BLOCK. Do u PHYSICALLY understand how strong blocking is. Like I've stated in other posts, sorcerers defensive capabilities and sustain is the main issue. We can't keep wards up long enough to line up our timed burst combination which no other class needs to do. Wards cost A RIDICULOUS AMOUNT. Highest defensive abilities in the game, they are paper and make block mitigation go to 0, they are capped. Utterly pathetic. Our damage abilities are not the primary issue. Yes execute could do with a buff and frags higher proc chance and a stun but that's IT at maximum for our offence. I'd much rather them buff all Wards and lower the cost by a LARGE amount 30% at minimum. That's ALL WARDS by the way. It's the only reason sorcerer is in the bin. I'm telling you now it will be fine if you do what I'm asking and it will simply not break the class.

Doesn't really matter what youtube content creators say. What matters more are what the top pvpers say. There is not a ton of coinciding between those 2 groups.
I know static wave and metallic monk, and their opinions on the matter mean more due to their levels of understanding of the game and mechanical skill. Unless a youtube content creator has similar understanding and mechanical skill, their tier list isn't accurate.

Sounds like you're saying only the opinion of those you know matters.

Sounds to me like he just doesn't put a ton of value on "content creator".

And when the players you know are some of the best in the game, then yeah you're gonna put more value in their opinion than a random "content creator" picking on noobs in a YT video.

So you know the "best in the game" but others just know people who pick on noobs...seems like there might be some bias.
Maybe we should pay more attention to those who can explain why the class is in the state it's in clearly, and have an understanding of how it got there regardless of whether they stream or not.
A lot of people have made some strong cases for change, and maybe some go to far and some don't go far enough.

Yeah pretty much. All the people I know play BG's where there is a MMR system that forces you to go up against more-or-less equally skilled players. So if someone performs well you know they had to work for it.

1vX is not impressive. If even one half-decent enemy player is present 1vX is not possible. If I visit a YT channel and only see a bunch of Cyro "outnumbered" videos I'm just not interested in that person's perspective. But hey that's me.

@ketsparrowhawk

This isn't entirely true, if a good player builds for high damage instead of the brain dead, 35k health, high mitigation standard you see then even if that high damage player is a GREAT player, if they make a mistake they die. Which can easily happen in an Xv1 scenario (you get over confident and someone takes advantage of that) I TRY to do it all the time. But unfortunately there are very few players under 28k health and 30k resistances that I can do this to while also mitigating other players damage.

There are so many active mitigation and defense mechanics in this game. So. freaking. many. Why everyone chooses to just slap on 35k health and high mitigation and call it skill is beyond me. If you're good at the game then don't crutch on it. Die when you make a mistake, it'll make you a better player.

ketsparrowhawk

Jsmalls wrote: »

ketsparrowhawk wrote: »

ForumBully wrote: »

ketsparrowhawk wrote: »

ForumBully wrote: »

gariondavey wrote: »

AdamLAD wrote: »

I'm sorry, sorcerer is like C+. All the YouTube content creators agree it's in the bin. Me also a content creator know its in the bin. Every fight I have the enemy sorcerer just flat out paper and dies immediately if they do not run away. This can be said for no other class at all. All I ever see is 35k HP Wardens, temps, Dks, necros and will capped out resistance and 6k weapon damage. With nightblades that are also immortal due to cloak. Sorcerer does not have such luxury of having anything remotely close thus why its in the bin and dies immediately if they do not run. We cannot even BLOCK. Do u PHYSICALLY understand how strong blocking is. Like I've stated in other posts, sorcerers defensive capabilities and sustain is the main issue. We can't keep wards up long enough to line up our timed burst combination which no other class needs to do. Wards cost A RIDICULOUS AMOUNT. Highest defensive abilities in the game, they are paper and make block mitigation go to 0, they are capped. Utterly pathetic. Our damage abilities are not the primary issue. Yes execute could do with a buff and frags higher proc chance and a stun but that's IT at maximum for our offence. I'd much rather them buff all Wards and lower the cost by a LARGE amount 30% at minimum. That's ALL WARDS by the way. It's the only reason sorcerer is in the bin. I'm telling you now it will be fine if you do what I'm asking and it will simply not break the class.

Doesn't really matter what youtube content creators say. What matters more are what the top pvpers say. There is not a ton of coinciding between those 2 groups.
I know static wave and metallic monk, and their opinions on the matter mean more due to their levels of understanding of the game and mechanical skill. Unless a youtube content creator has similar understanding and mechanical skill, their tier list isn't accurate.

Sounds like you're saying only the opinion of those you know matters.

Sounds to me like he just doesn't put a ton of value on "content creator".

And when the players you know are some of the best in the game, then yeah you're gonna put more value in their opinion than a random "content creator" picking on noobs in a YT video.

So you know the "best in the game" but others just know people who pick on noobs...seems like there might be some bias.
Maybe we should pay more attention to those who can explain why the class is in the state it's in clearly, and have an understanding of how it got there regardless of whether they stream or not.
A lot of people have made some strong cases for change, and maybe some go to far and some don't go far enough.

Yeah pretty much. All the people I know play BG's where there is a MMR system that forces you to go up against more-or-less equally skilled players. So if someone performs well you know they had to work for it.

1vX is not impressive. If even one half-decent enemy player is present 1vX is not possible. If I visit a YT channel and only see a bunch of Cyro "outnumbered" videos I'm just not interested in that person's perspective. But hey that's me.

@ketsparrowhawk

This isn't entirely true, if a good player builds for high damage instead of the brain dead, 35k health, high mitigation standard you see then even if that high damage player is a GREAT player, if they make a mistake they die. Which can easily happen in an Xv1 scenario (you get over confident and someone takes advantage of that) I TRY to do it all the time. But unfortunately there are very few players under 28k health and 30k resistances that I can do this to while also mitigating other players damage.

There are so many active mitigation and defense mechanics in this game. So. freaking. many. Why everyone chooses to just slap on 35k health and high mitigation and call it skill is beyond me. If you're good at the game then don't crutch on it. Die when you make a mistake, it'll make you a better player.

True! If a great player tries to Xv1 with little-to-no defensive investments in their build then the 1vXer might be able to pull it off!

Tommy_The_Gun

As long as it won't lead to other classes getting nerfed and Sorcerer will be buffed a little bit - I don't see the problem... but if you look even at this thread then you can already see the problem...

That is at least what I tend to do. I try to focus on the topic. If it is about buffing a class - then if I play that class & know where the class is lacking - then I say what could be done where.

I never actually try to compare class skills vs other classe skill because that simply won't work. One class will have that "best single target meele spamable" because some one has to. Other class will have "best survivability ulti" because some one has to. Other will have "best mobility tool" because some one has to. Other will have best AOE damaging ability... because some one has to.

That is why we have different classes. So that it would enable different playstyles.

That is why I always use non-class skills as a reference point and then I try to see if class skill is stronger. If it is not, then it means class skill should be buffed.

I find this whole Sorc vs NB drama to be meme worthy tbh.
It seems to exist since ESO exists. It doesn't matter if one class is better or not. It always existed, no matter what state the class is. It rather has to do with class archetype and what type of person it attracts.

ketsparrowhawk

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

I find this whole Sorc vs NB drama to be meme worthy tbh.
It seems to exist since ESO exists. It doesn't matter if one class is better or not. It always existed, no matter what state the class is. It rather has to do with class archetype and what type of person it attracts.

Wasn't trying to say one is or should be better than the other. But it is a useful comparison. Both classes are burst-oriented with "escape" as their primary defense. Seems to me that their ability to "eat" damage should be similar.

katorga

I think the majority of classes have valid reasons to complain.

Jsmalls

ketsparrowhawk wrote: »

True! If a great player tries to Xv1 with little-to-no defensive investments in their build then the 1vXer might be able to pull it off!

See that's the issue! Mind sets like that! You don't NEED to build for "significant" defensive investments. Everyone has block, dodge roll, instant heals, heals over time, CC's, etc etc. Use them! Heals even scale with damage, and you still choose the kindergarten build.

Stop slapping on extra health and mitigation and acting like you're a top tier player. More than half the time you win a fight is because you're hand is being held so you don't die when you make a mistake. /Rant.

jaws343

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

ketsparrowhawk wrote: »

Not a sorc main but I play one a fair amount and shred every time so I am not convinced they're in any kind of bad shape. Sorcs are unmatched regarding long-range offense + mobility and that should come with some weaknesses. To me it makes sense that healing/tankiness is their weakness.

They aren't. They've never been at the bottom of the tier list. They were definitely shadowed by OP classes like pre-nerfed templar and current DK, but they could hold their own against most builds and classes. If I were to rank them, I'd put them in the B+/A tier.

What baffles me is how most sorc mains refuse to accept that their class would be OP if ZOS decided to buff it using their suggestions. Sorc's playstyle hasn't changed over 5 years, yet it could still keep up with most classes. Any drastic buffs would push the class over the top like NB. NB's never been bad either, but these recent unnecessary buffs turned it into one of the strongest/borderline overperforming classes.

I am pretty sure we have reached the end of the rope as far as sorc buffs go.
ZOS clearly wants us to play 40k health sorcs doing tons of uncounterable oblivion damage without using thumbs and having 10k wards on top of it. Its the best Xv1 and dueling setup but I can guarantee you will melt in a 1vX. When you play this next patch remember who called this out

My suggestions were definitely less OP and healthier than the scenario above

40-50K health Mara + Snake in the Stars Sorcs. Just spamming Fury everywhere.

ForumBully

I hope devs are reading this

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

As long as it won't lead to other classes getting nerfed and Sorcerer will be buffed a little bit - I don't see the problem... but if you look even at this thread then you can already see the problem...

That is at least what I tend to do. I try to focus on the topic. If it is about buffing a class - then if I play that class & know where the class is lacking - then I say what could be done where.

I never actually try to compare class skills vs other classe skill because that simply won't work. One class will have that "best single target meele spamable" because some one has to. Other class will have "best survivability ulti" because some one has to. Other will have "best mobility tool" because some one has to. Other will have best AOE damaging ability... because some one has to.

That is why we have different classes. So that it would enable different playstyles.

That is why I always use non-class skills as a reference point and then I try to see if class skill is stronger. If it is not, then it means class skill should be buffed.

I find this whole Sorc vs NB drama to be meme worthy tbh.
It seems to exist since ESO exists. It doesn't matter if one class is better or not. It always existed, no matter what state the class is. It rather has to do with class archetype and what type of person it attracts.

I think its also too easy to confuse class strength with a classes ability to use strong sets easily. A class that is defensively strong via their class toolkit can easily take up a healing set and get more milage out of it than a class who isn't.
A limited example, but I think relevant, is Magsorc and Maras. Maras is a strong defensive set for most classes, but magsorc has to trade the power of it's class defensive toolkit to use it, where other classes are only made stronger with the same set.
ZOS seems to have opted for set options rather than reevaluating class strength recently. And I think there's a lot of agreement in the community that a magsorc is locked into a particular build philosophy if they want to utilize their class kit effectively, and that build philosophy has been left behind by changes both to other classes and via set choices.

ketsparrowhawk

Jsmalls wrote: »

ketsparrowhawk wrote: »

True! If a great player tries to Xv1 with little-to-no defensive investments in their build then the 1vXer might be able to pull it off!

See that's the issue! Mind sets like that! You don't NEED to build for "significant" defensive investments. Everyone has block, dodge roll, instant heals, heals over time, CC's, etc etc. Use them! Heals even scale with damage, and you still choose the kindergarten build.

Stop slapping on extra health and mitigation and acting like you're a top tier player. More than half the time you win a fight is because you're hand is being held so you don't die when you make a mistake. /Rant.

I assume you mean a rhetorical "you". Here is my main's build:

https://en.m.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoBuildData?id=488398

Not overly tanky. Just a well rounded build.

MetallicMonk

ketsparrowhawk wrote: »

Yeah pretty much. All the people I know play BG's where there is a MMR system that forces you to go up against more-or-less equally skilled players. So if someone performs well you know they had to work for it.

1vX is not impressive. If even one half-decent enemy player is present 1vX is not possible. If I visit a YT channel and only see a bunch of Cyro "outnumbered" videos I'm just not interested in that person's perspective. But hey that's me.

I see this opinion quite a bit and though I'm biased because I greatly enjoy solo PvP and while BGs are fun aren't my cup of tea, I have to disagree for multiple reasons.

Coming from previous games show much eso lacks in it's system of groups of players fighting each other, aside from the combat system which is obviously fun and most of the reason we play. The game isn't balanced around 4v4 at all, let alone the fact BGs have a third party mechanic that is just inherently bad for any competitive environment. Honestly I'd say a 3v3 in ESO would be slightly more enjoyable and balanced

Now sure there have been ways to circumvent this where people are able to get 4v4s set up and a true match and I won't disagree or try to say there is no skill at all involved, generally I'm sure the better and more organized team will win. That being said this game literally only has one hard cc immunity and doesn't really play into diminishing returns at all, there is no chain ccing targets with your teammates keeping certain people out of fights, strategies revolving around group fights in eso while side things like moving as a group and smaller details are there generally boil down to just staying alive and ulti dumping on top of the other team, target swapping and the like doesn't play nearly as much of a factor.

I've played other team based games to high ranks(league/wow) a game like wow 3v3 arenas compared to eso things like this are just hard to ignore, in a game like that you have to be target swapping constantly, attentive of your targets buffs and making sure you're not attacking into large defensive cooldowns, and having to actually be careful because your break free is on a 2 minute timer so if you're caught in a hard cc without something big defensively running your healer probably won't even be able to save you. That on top of multiple diminishing return tables allowing you to coordinate multiple forms of cc with your partners which elevates the synergy and timing needed in a group setting, sometimes allowing you to keep 2 players hard cc'd for quite long and 3v1 a player down with no help from their team. On top of this the game has an actual MMR and ranked ladder system that you have to climb and generally players will not reach a high rating because of it functioning correctly, eso's MMR is literally just time played.

When you've played other games like that you really see how much depth eso lacks in that department and also lets me compare how challenging things like solo PvP can be comparatively. Though I can agree a lot of 1vX videos are very very underwhelming it's easy to tell that some are very different and the player was under heavy pressure and playing very well, utilizing positioning and movement, killing harder targets which you definitely can recognize, and lining burst combos and kills up while maintaining their buffs and keeping themselves alive with no outside help. Some of the insanely stressful 1vXs I've had are very comparable to the hardest matches and teams I've fought in other games where it is very demanding and unforgiving.

Also to touch on the you can't 1vx good players, while mostly this is true because a good player really won't play in a way to make it possible I can say that I have definitely and know people who have 1vxd players who are considered good by most. It's a possible thing when people start playing extremely aggressive knowing they have the numbers advantage and going overly hard for the kill and slipping up defensively.

StaticWave

Is there a huge gap between the floor and the ceiling for sorc? Yes there is. Should we reduce the gap? Yes, we should to a certain extent to attract more players.

I’m not going to claim that my opinion is absolute - after all it’s just an opinion formed after playing the class through all types of content. However, I am confident that I can pin point the core issues of sorc, both stam and mag.

1) Lack of crit passives to synergize with Crit Surge, thereby leading to wasting other offensive stats to bring crit rate up

2) Lack of a proper burst heal for stamsorc, thereby forcing the class to play a hit and run playstyle. The lack of a burst heal would not be an issue back in the days because speed was rather difficult to get. Currently, speed is very easy to obtain as I can reach the speed cap on any class, which reduces the uniqueness of stamsorc. This no longer makes the hit and run playstyle as strong because everyone can catch up to you. You definitely need a burst heal now to survive even in a hit and run build.

3) Some passives are just weird and don’t work with the whole kit. For example we have a passive that clearly pushes for more blocking like Persistence, but Sorc’s main sustain ability is a channel? Or a passive that increases Shock damage by 5%, but most of their offensive abilities are Magic/Physical damage?

Those are the 3 main issues that ZOS can easily address. Everything else DOES NOT MATTER AS MUCH. Yes, that includes buffs to shield or a source of Major Fracture or whatever. We don’t need them. If you can raise your crit chance to 50%, you’ve already increased your healing potential substantially with Crit Surge and actually don’t need to slot more heals. That’s how powerful Crit Surge is. I know this VERY well because as a brawlersorc with 5 sources of DoT and 32% crit rate to maximize Crit Surge uptime, I can literally heal through most DKs’ damage except for top tier ones, and we all know how strong a DK is in a dueling setting. You would also be able to crit more than other classes, thereby making your damage output much better. A burst heal would also make sorc much better and quite honestly, it would stop all the complaints about sorc defense if the class had a burst heal.

Obviously the class would need to be tweaked if these buff suggestions were implemented to keep the class balanced, but they honestly don’t need a lot of fixes. Anything else would make the class overperform, and we don’t want that to happen at all.

ketsparrowhawk

StaticWave wrote: »

Is there a huge gap between the floor and the ceiling for sorc? Yes there is. Should we reduce the gap? Yes, we should to a certain extent to attract more players.

I’m not going to claim that my opinion is absolute - after all it’s just an opinion formed after playing the class through all types of content. However, I am confident that I can pin point the core issues of sorc, both stam and mag.

1) Lack of crit passives to synergize with Crit Surge, thereby leading to wasting other offensive stats to bring crit rate up

2) Lack of a proper burst heal for stamsorc, thereby forcing the class to play a hit an run playstyle. Now normally the lack of a burst heal would not be an issue back in the days because speed was rather difficult to get. Currently, speed is very easy to obtain as I can reach the speed cap on any class, which reduces the uniqueness of stamsorc. This no longer makes the hit and run playstyle as potent because everyone can catch up to you. You definitely need a burst heal now survive even in a hit and run build.

3) Some passives are just weird and don’t work with the whole kit. For example we have a passive that clearly pushes for more blocking like Persistence, but Sorc’s main sustain ability is a channel? Or a passive that increases Shock damage by 5%, but most of their offensive abilities are Magic/Physical damage?

Those are the 3 main issues that ZOS can easily address. Everything else DOES NOT MATTER AS MUCH. Yes, that includes buffs to shield or a source of Major Fracture or whatever. We don’t need them. If you can raise your crit chance to 50%, you’ve already increased your healing potential substantially with Crit Surge and actually don’t need to slot more heals. That’s how powerful Crit Surge is. You would also be able to crit more than other classes, thereby making your damage output much better than other classes. A burst heal would also make sorc much better and quite honestly, it would stop all the complaints about sorc defense if the class had a burst heal.

Obviously the class would need to be tweaked if these buff suggestions were implemented to keep the class balanced, but they honestly don’t need a lot of fixes. Anything else would make the class overperform, and we don’t want that to happen at all.

Perfectly sensible!